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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.06.03 17:30:00 -
[1]
Problems:
1) FW occupancy usually has little to do with pvp. Pvp and occupancy are often very different types of activity. Or put differently FW occupancy involves too much pve and not enough pvp.
2)FW pvp too often consists attacking someone and then getting blobbed.
3)Too much time is spent shipping up or down.
4)Too much time is spent looking for a similar sized gang you may want to engage as opposed to run from or that will just run from you.
Solution:
1) Remove npcs from occupancy related plexes. Npcs in the plexes ruin it. Who wants to fight with your ability to win gimped by some intangible amount of rat dps and ewar from rats? ItÆs lame fighting when you are under fire and ewar from npcs. Really I donÆt want npcs whoring my killmails anyway.
2) Inform Militias when players enter plexes! When someone from fw enters a complex gate both sides should know who entered, where, ship types and the plex type. This is intel that should just be provided via a separate chat channel. After all if a system is contested that means both sides likely have npc spies there giving info. (here I do not mean player spies but npc militia spies that will post in the channel but they do not fly around in ships. They are more like bureaucratic spies. The only way their presence would be known in game is they would post in the ôplex intelö chat channel) This way the players could get a gang out there to fight the enemy pvp gang before the plex runs. No npcs in the fight. Instead information about where you can find pvp!
Comments:
If ccp made those two changes I think plexing would make fw the absolute best pvp mechanic in the game. Will it solve everything? No but it will, I believe substantially cut down on the problems I listed above.
I would point out 3) plexes shouldnÆt mainly spawn at downtime. They should be spawning throughout the day and frequently. I thought the csm already recommended this to ccp û though I could be wrong.
How will this make plexing more of a pvp activity? By removing the npcs people will fit their ships for pvp. There will be no trade offs that need to be made for dealing with the various rats. Fit your ship for pvp and go capture systems.
WonÆt this lead to people just flying noob ships in plexs? That is where the second change comes in. Currently if you are going to do plexes the most effective way is to get in a small ship that can tank the npcs and hope the timer runs before the enemy knows your even there. The current mechanics make this the smart way to plex. However with the proposed changes the other militia will know where you are and likely come to kill you. So if you are not prepared to fight chances are you will get chased out before the timer is up. The entire enemy will be put on notice as to where you are and what you are flying. So your chance of holding the plex depends on your pvp power instead of your pve prowess.
comments continued....
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.06.03 17:36:00 -
[2]
continued from op....
How will this reduce blobs? Well IÆm not sure it will reduce actual blobs but it will reduce their impact on the game in at least 3 ways:
1) It will make it easier to avoid ôgetting blobbed.ö Currently since most of the pvp occurs in the system you can have a bait ship and then as soon as someone engages the bait you can have a fleet warp right on top of them. Here you will be in a plex. So if people try to warp to you they will not warp directly on top of you they will warp to the gate. Now you can decide to engage the enemy as far from or close to the gate as you like. If you engage say 90km off the gate. Then you will 1st see local spike. The blob will have to warp to the gate. Jump through the gate and then try to burn out to you. This will give you time to either kill a few of the enemy or try to get away. If the blob jumps in with sniper fits they may not need to burn out to you (they can start shooting right at the gate) but they will be quite vulnerable if you have some close range reinforcements coming.
2) If the enemy is flying around in one big blob then you can spread out and take plexes far from where the blob is. Moreover if the enemy just tries to stay in one big gang chasing individual plexers they may get trapped by an enemy blob. From an occupancy stand point though it would be better to break up the blob into 5 groups taking plexes though out the fw area than it would to have one big blob lumbering around capturing none of the plexes and trying to chase plexers away and likely getting no kills in the process.
3) The plexes are already size limited. So if you bring 30 battleships to chase away 3 destroyers and 3 frigates doing a minor plex you wonÆt get in. The size of the gang has to be able to get into the plexes. Hence, other than major plexes, the blob warfare as we know it wonÆt work.
How will this reduce the time it takes shipping up or down? Well the intel channel *tells* you the size of the fleet you are to deal with. So it will greatly speed this up.
How will this reduce the time you spend roaming looking for a like sized gang? Well the intel channel *tells* you where they are and the type of gang they have. So the problem is about as solved as possible.
Will there be a fleet in system waiting on the gate even though only a few are in doing the plex? Sure thatÆs possible. You still need to scout. But thatÆs not so bad.
Does this mean the larger and more powerful militia will win occupancy? Yeah I think it does. But thatÆs the way it should work.
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Cearain
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.06.07 17:26:00 -
[3]
This thread is now officially open for comments and discussion. You are all now welcome to post your thoughts.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.06.07 17:37:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 07/06/2010 17:36:50 Comments: - This seems pretty easy to abuse, because you can have 50 people in stilettos hit 50 systems simultaneously... if someone comes you do what you can to hold them down. Amarr are most susceptible to this since they have the most systems. - I somehow doubt this will limit blobbing because you're essentially telling 250 people where you are! - But... the NPCs really do **** everything up, and I really dislike the whole "shoot it and rep it" cycle that happens in 0.0
Well, I support the removal of those NPCs... so carry on.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Hereon Herinnger
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.06.08 03:23:00 -
[5]
Nice ideas. There would need to be fewer plexes necessary, I think, but make them take longer. I agree that spamming plexes in small ships could be annoying (noobship alts anyone? easy to kill, but not in 50 places at once). Thus make each plex take say an hour, but only have on average 0-2 per system. (Scale necessary victory points accordingly.)
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Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2010.06.08 04:41:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Cearain
1) FW occupancy usually has little to do with pvp. Pvp and occupancy are often very different types of activity. Or put differently FW occupancy involves too much pve and not enough pvp.
Plexing in FW is PvP not PvE. This is a common miss-conception with those who assume "plex" = "PvE".
Originally by: Cearain
2) FW pvp too often consists attacking someone and then getting blobbed.
Good thing we have plex restrictions to manage the engagement size and allow for fights even when one side is vastly outnumbered.
Originally by: Cearain
3) Too much time is spent shipping up or down. 4) Too much time is spent looking for a similar sized gang you may want to engage as opposed to run from or that will just run from you.
Then why not use the plex size restrictions to get an engagement of a size you can handle?
Originally by: Cearain
1) Remove npcs from occupancy related plexes.
NPCs allow you to fight those blobs you're complaining about. They are the solution to the "problem" you see.
The NPC ewar does require a rebalance.
Originally by: Cearain
If ccp made those two changes I think plexing would make fw the absolute best pvp mechanic in the game. Will it solve everything? No but it will, I believe substantially cut down on the problems I listed above.
No it wouldn't.
By removing NPCs and messing with plex size restrictions you remove the very mechanic that allows you to fight blobs when the enemy is stronger for your timezone.
Originally by: Cearain
3) plexes shouldnÆt mainly spawn at downtime. They should be spawning throughout the day and frequently.
This has needed fixing for a long time.
Originally by: Cearain
How will this make plexing more of a pvp activity? By removing the npcs people will fit their ships for pvp.
Plexing is already a PvP activity and fleets that plex are already fit for PvP.
Originally by: Cearain
How will this reduce blobs?
It won't. It will however remove all the mechanics smaller fleets have for managing them.
Originally by: Cearain
1) It will make it easier to avoid ôgetting blobbed.ö
By removing the ability to use NPCs as a force multiplier? Smart.....
Originally by: Cearain
2) If the enemy is flying around in one big blob then you can spread out and take plexes far from where the blob is.
Already the case.
Originally by: Cearain
3) .... The size of the gang has to be able to get into the plexes. Hence, other than major plexes, the blob warfare as we know it wonÆt work.
Already the case.
Originally by: Cearain
Does this mean the larger and more powerful militia will win occupancy? Yeah I think it does. But thatÆs the way it should work.
So your suggestion is that the larger militia should have complete dominance and the smaller militia should have no tools for engagement size management.
Amazingly short-sighted.
Not supported.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.06.08 06:18:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Dr Battlesmith Plexing in FW is PvP not PvE.
Not in the usual sense - unless there's an opposing pilot involved. At most it might amount to poor market PVP for LP or standings gains or something.
Originally by: Dr BattleSmith
NPCs allow you to fight those blobs you're complaining about. They are the solution to the "problem" you see. ... By removing NPCs and messing with plex size restrictions you remove the very mechanic that allows you to fight blobs when the enemy is stronger for your timezone. ... By removing the ability to use NPCs as a force multiplier?
What the hell are you talking about? The NPCs are the biggest deterrent to small scale PVP I've ever seen. I'd rather camp gates for PVP than do plexes because plex NPCs make it impossible to PVP. Freaking brain dead I swear.
Quote: So your suggestion is that the larger militia should have complete dominance and the smaller militia should have no tools for engagement size management.
The only intelligent thing you said. Even still, the plex NPCs are a catastrophically stupid way to handle things... and if one side is that outnumbered, it might make sense that they lose.......
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2010.06.08 06:42:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Not in the usual sense - unless there's an opposing pilot involved. At most it might amount to poor market PVP for LP or standings gains or something.
You must be talking about solo plexing in backwater systems.
With fleet plexing the whole point is to choose plex for the PvP. When the enemy outnumber you, small/medium plex can be used to force the enemy to ship down. Also unrestricted plex can be used to engage larger fleets including capitals with the help of some NPC dps.
Originally by: Liang Nuren
What the hell are you talking about? The NPCs are the biggest deterrent to small scale PVP I've ever seen. I'd rather camp gates for PVP than do plexes because plex NPCs make it impossible to PVP.
Impossible to PvP? I can show you hundreds of fights where the plex have been the sole reason for a fight being at all possible.
When the enemy is flying around in a 30-40 strong BC/BS fleet it's the plex that allow your 10-20 strong cruiser fleet to engage.
If you think plex somehow block the possibility of PvP then you really don't know how they work. Plex are a tool for the underdog to gain initiative and force the larger side to react.
They are a very important part of FW PvP which expand the fight beyond gates and stations.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.06.08 08:13:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Dr BattleSmith
You must be talking about solo plexing in backwater systems.
With fleet plexing the whole point is to choose plex for the PvP. When the enemy outnumber you, small/medium plex can be used to force the enemy to ship down. Also unrestricted plex can be used to engage larger fleets including capitals with the help of some NPC dps.
Yes, because that's the order of the ****ing day man. If people want blobs, they go to 0.0. If they want small gang ****, they goto low sec. FW is in low sec. Q E ****ing D.
Quote:
Impossible to PvP? I can show you hundreds of fights where the plex have been the sole reason for a fight being at all possible.
Fantastic, in my corp alone there's been thousands of potential fights that were avoided because we couldn't PVP inside FW plexes and missions.
Quote:
When the enemy is flying around in a 30-40 strong BC/BS fleet it's the plex that allow your 10-20 strong cruiser fleet to engage.
I've seen two FW fleet this strong. Two. Ever. ****ing EVER. Come on now, way to use the once in a decade arguments.
Quote:
If you think plex somehow block the possibility of PvP then you really don't know how they work. Plex are a tool for the underdog to gain initiative and force the larger side to react.
No, you're just out of touch with reality - the fleets simply do not form up the way you're suggesting. It doesn't happen, stop using it as an argument.
Quote: They are a very important part of FW PvP which expand the fight beyond gates and stations.
No.... they aren't. They're an impediment to PVP because it takes a dual logistics blob to go after a ****ing rifter in a plex.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.06.08 08:35:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Cearain 3) Too much time is spent shipping up or down.
Size restrictions on plexes is probably the only good thing about the whole fiasco called FW. Yes it means you have to have more stuff ready to fly but it beats the hell out of any alternatives.
Originally by: Cearain 1) Remove npcs from occupancy related plexes.
NPC damage is beyond pitiful, look at the mails, even frigs out damage them on most mails. The only issue with them is the eWar - that is what makes them troublesome for plex fighting .
Originally by: Cearain 2) Inform Militias when players enter plexes!
Aka. "The Blob Magnetizer!". Would create insurmountable spam (mail or channel), would not serve to rally any more people than are already willing/able and benefits numbers (in pilots and systems) significantly more than current.
Originally by: Cearain WonÆt this lead to people just flying noob ships in plexs?..
There will be no change what so ever. Tons of frigs capturing every plex in sight, run to next when enemy shows .. will have zero impact on amount of PvP. Will be particularly grievous when there is a large number disparity between two sides as defensive squads can only cover so much ground.
Originally by: Cearain How will this reduce blobs?
1) How does this differ from the way things are today? Blobs means no fights, the large fleet slug-outs rarely if ever happen at/in/near/in relation to plexes. 2) How does this differ from the way things are today? Blob on call camping Goddess knows what with frigates plexing .. 3) How does this differ from the way things are today? Blobs (in FW) are not necessarily BS. The most frequent composition is frigate/cruiser with a smattering of BS for damage .. the heavy blobs only form when plexing is "done" and is a recreational tool .. they have no impact on plexing what so ever.
Originally by: Cearain How will this reduce the time it takes shipping up or down?
Originally by: Cearain How will this reduce the time you spend roaming looking for a like sized gang?
You even mention the obvious course of action as a "possibility" .. well guess what, it will be the de facto standard operating procedure for everyone. Blob on acceleration gates with single frig taking plex .. or even better, have the blob roam around an area while frigs plexes in constellation and call blob in to whatever system the defenders arrive in .. impossible to counter as the one plex you may save is just one out of a dozen = you lose over time.
Originally by: Cearain Does this mean the larger and more powerful militia will win occupancy? Yeah I think it does. But thatÆs the way it should work.
Yea. Strategy, tactics and conviction has no place in war at all. Read up on the history of warfare and you'll see what I mean .. hell you only need to look at the US fight for independence to get the gist of it. FW is tolerable because numbers does not equal iWin like it does in blob-land.
There is no solution to FW unless you are willing to revamp the entire thing .. the basic mechanic is what is broken.
Not supported. The turd called FW cannot ever get the required shine regardless of how much polish is applied .. revamp is only option.
PS: The link to my thread from last year, now locked due to age. Still my baby though.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.06.08 14:06:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Dr BattleSmith
By removing NPCs and messing with plex size restrictions you remove the very mechanic that allows you to fight blobs when the enemy is stronger for your timezone.
Thank you all for your posts. I recognize this is a pretty big change and needs to be considered carefully. But I have thought this through quite a bit so before you write it off consider what I raise in light of your objections. Just to be clear, I would not mess with the plex size restrictions. This proposal does 2 things and 2 things only. 1) remove npcs and 2) inform player militias of who is taking plexes where through a seperate channel. The plexes would still have the same sizes. (I suppose I added 3.. that plexes spawn throughout the day but I think this change has already been promoted by csm)
I am not denying that some pvp takes place during plexing. I donÆt participate in it because it is done during down time, but I hear it is great fun. But the vast majority of pvp takes place outside of the plexing context. What percent of fw pvp kills would you say take place in an occupancy plex? I would guess 2%. The plex restrictions make them an awesome system to prevent getting blobbed. They are a *great* place to pvp. Yet they are almost never used for pvp. Why? 2 reasons you have to hassle with npcs (or have the enemy hassle with them û and they will often just say ôthanks but no thanks if I want to pve I will run a missionö) and 2 if you clear out the npcs who says anyone is even going to come in your plex?? You just sit there waiting.
I really think with my proposal you would see at least 50% of fw pvp occurring in plexes. And it would be the same great small gang pvp you guys who are lucky enough to play during down time see.
Liang IÆm not sure I understand what you are saying you would do with 50 stillettoes. If a stiletto is an a plex he needs to stay a certain distance from the button. So you could just chase it off. I mean IÆm not saying certain tactics wouldnÆt develop IÆm sure they would. But IÆm not sure I understand what you are suggesting.
As far as the timer. IÆm not sure it would have to increase that much û if at all. I think fleets would tend to spread out. You would have medium plex fleet(s) large plex fleet(s) and minor plex fleet(s) roaming around. When they see a similar sized enemy gang has jumped into a plex the make the few jumps and fight. There would be constant pvp activity throughout the fw systems.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.06.08 14:41:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
NPC damage is beyond pitiful, look at the mails, even frigs out damage them on most mails. The only issue with them is the eWar - that is what makes them troublesome for plex fighting .
Well either npcs are ôblob equalizersö, like DR. battlesmith is saying , or they are ônext to nothing.ö But you both canÆt be right. I think they are one thing û dampeners on pvp.
I (like the vast majority of pvpers) tend not to engage fights with npcs shooting at me. I don't know what all the funny ship names mean and I have no intention on learning them. I do not think I am alone on this. Let me explain:
If I see 2 ruptures a thorax and 2 rifters in a major I have an idea what I'm up against. If I have those same ships with an ass-ton of wacky named npcs, I don't know what to expect. How much damage will those npcs start doing if I get scrammed and webbed? Who knows and who cares? Not allot of people are going to want to try to figure that out. Instead they will just do their pvp outside of the plexes. Like the vast majority of fw pvp is currently done.
ThatÆs just it though. FW has these great plexes with ship size restrictions which could yield so much more! But those mechanics are getting all fÆed up by npcs and games of hide and go seek.
Let me ask, what percent of plexes taken do you think involve pvp? When I started fw I took a few plexes but found it to be mainly a pve activity. Has this drastically changed despite no changes to the mechanics? It doesnÆt seem to have changed. Now I will occasionally fly to a plex if there is an enemy in local. Almost always when I fly in the enemy warps. Do I blame him? No he often has about 50% shields from npcs. Why would he want to pvp with that handicap?
I think that if this proposal was implemented even if the plex wasnÆt contested we would still get pvp in them. People would see these plexes as a great way to limit blobs and get a variety of pvp.
Would the side that can field more ships win? Yeah I suppose they would. But its hard to say they shouldnÆt win. Moreover if we are getting great fights who cares. Occupancy doesnÆt mean much of anything other than a medal. If that medal was based on pvp instead of pve it might actually have decent value. But even if one side loses because they are outnumbered just keep fighting the fight until the tide changes and they get the upper hand. At least with Amarr and Minmatar the numbers tend to go up and down quite a bit.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.06.08 15:08:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Yea. Strategy, tactics and conviction has no place in war at all. Read up on the history of warfare and you'll see what I mean .. hell you only need to look at the US fight for independence to get the gist of it. FW is tolerable because numbers does not equal iWin like it does in blob-land.
If we did away with npcs we would make plexing and occupancy pvp but not without strategy. I think the strategy in fw pvp would be some of the richest in eve.
Nor would it lead to blobs. It would split them.
Instead of everyone hanging out in a blob (as they do now because almost no pvp takes place in plexes anyway) gangs would split up and spread out with different sized ships. If you are really organized you can have different sized ready fit ships thoughout fw space. If you are really good you can have jump clones ready. If a big blob comes you can do minor or medium plexes. Blobs tend to be unwieldy and take a *long* time to get reshipped or move. If they move too fast they may tend to be reckless and get caught.
Having multiple gangs able to get in different sized ships fast would be what occupancy would be all about. That is what real war is all about. Having the right troops present *when you need them*. Not having a big lumbering blob that can't even enter the plex/battlefield.
Its unlikely that a militia will be able to field 3 different blobs at once, each of which would need to be bigger than any single gang the opposing militia can field. There would have to be one for minors one for mediums and one for majors.
And even if they can,(very very unlikely) you just do plexes away from the enemy blobs that apply to your style of plex. Intel would be important as would logistics and strategy. But for once we would likely have fcs splitting gangs to try to accomplish different strategic goals instead of everyone trying to stay together and blob all at once.
Will blobs still exist? Sure they will. But if you are in a plex that doesnÆt allow bigger ships in they will not matter as much.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.06.08 16:23:00 -
[14]
Edited by: X Gallentius on 08/06/2010 16:23:47 1) Removing NPCs from plexes makes offensive plexing as boring as defensive plexing - when nobody shows up for a fight. It also makes offensive plexing easy and will lead to massive numbers of afk plexing alts contesting systems.
2) Broadcasting where plexes are opening is a great idea and will help with defensive plexing efforts, with more chances for a fight.
But here's what's going to happen. Plex opening up will be broadcast to all. The first three days everybody will rush to defend the plex and the AFK plexing alt will simply warp out and move on. The people looking for fights will soon get bored of going ten jumps for nothing (and then having to sit on timer for 20 minutes to decontest the plex). We'll be back to three dedicated plexers on each side hunting each other's afk plexing alts down.
Bottom line: If both parties want fights then fights will happen. Otherwise it won't.
Fights does not equal Occupancy. Orbiting a button for "N" minutes equal Occupancy. Sometimes you have to kill NPCs, sometimes you have to bail because the other side wants to win more than they want a fight, and sometimes you bring too many people because your goal is occupancy and not fight, and sometimes you get a good fight because both sides bring an appropriate force to the plex.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.06.08 17:30:00 -
[15]
X Gallentius
While I agree that if both parties donÆt want a fight you likely wont get one. But often IÆm looking for a fight and IÆm sure there are plenty of enemies out there looking for a fight to but I canÆt find them or we are in the wrong fits. We can make it a lot easier to get good fights. These changes to plexing are essentially a way to make it easier to find a fight.
I'm not sure you would have to go 10 jumps. You would see the plexes popping up throughout the fw area. The only questions are, are you in the right sized ship/gang to head over a few jumps to fight what they have? If not how fast can you get in the right ships? You could of course just continue to roam around like you do now if you want pvp. But I think we would find most fights donÆt happen that way with this way of finding good fights fast.
Even if the changes were made, I would likely not do the plexes for occupancy at all. I would do them *just* for the fights. I would probably orbit the button for the heck of it while I am in there. But currently, I really don't care about occupancy. I may if some interesting strategies started to spin off of how it was acquired and they involved pvp.
Lots of times many on both sides want fights but have very little idea what they need to bring. So one blob for each side forms. (that way yoru ready for anythign right?) Blob A sees blob B has the advantage so blob A ships up. Half hour later Blob A is out and blob B has disbanded so blob A ganks a few things while it waits for blob B. Blob B reforms and by they time they are out half of blob A left. Etc.
The proposed system would be much more fluid. You would see gangs entering plexes all the time thorough out the faction war area. (and hopefully throughout the day and not just after downtime!) You know they will likely be there for the time it takes the plex to run. So you can decide if you want to go fight them. Sure some people will run. But if you bring a somewhat comparable gang (and you will know the size of the gang in the plex so why not?) you will get a ton of good small gang/solo fights fast.
For myself, I know that if I didnÆt have to mess wth npcs and I knew someone actually knew I was sitting there, I would show up solo in my frigate/cruiser/bc/battleship (whatever) 70 k off the warp in gate so that even if they try to bring a blob I have a shot at taking out the bait or getting away before I get blobbed.
I do not think it would end up with people semi-afking these. Think about it. If you want a fight now what do you do? You warp around looking for targets. Here you might as well do a plex and let the enemy come to you. If they are coming for you then you know they want a fight. It just helps likeminded people find good fights. It does so without being staged or prearranged.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.06.08 17:39:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Cearain Well either npcs are ôblob equalizersö, like DR. battlesmith is saying , or they are ônext to nothing.ö But you both canÆt be right. I think they are one thing û dampeners on pvp.
You need to read and understand what I actually said, no where did I say they were "next to nothing". I said the damage can be shrugged off but the eWar is what breaks them .. remove all NPC eWar and be done with it. Pirates have no qualms about taking what little damage the NPCs give, be it in plexes or on gates. The only "WTF..Grrrr" I have ever heard from them is that they were webbed, neuted, painted, jammed, dampened etc. (ie. the eWar) by the rats so they bailed/died/didn't loot .. very rarely do I hear damage from rats mentioned as reason for a missed opportunity.
If you assault a plex that you have not previously been in there is no spawns of consequence, if you are running a timer without clearing rats when an enemy comes in then the fault is your own .. stop speed tanking the bloody things and NPC's become a trifle. A lesson you are free to pass on to the 50%-shields-runner example you gave .. a couple of guys in proper ships (yes even PvP fitted) can wipe out all spawns almost as fast as they arrive.
Originally by: Cearain If we did away with npcs we would make plexing and occupancy pvp but not without strategy. I think the strategy in fw pvp would be some of the richest in eve.
You cannot possibly be that naive. Look at Amarr space, a BC-down blob could linger in Dal/Amamake and reach any Amarr FW system within 5-6 minutes. The whole splitting the blob up will NEVER happen unless you give them reason .. allowing any non-noob ship to plex with not even NPC interference does not. As I said, the BS blobs rarely shows itself except on weekends when they slug it out for fun, the everyday blob has more than enough ships to go into any plex they want and still outnumber a plexing contingent.
Your attempt at polishing the inherently flawed system does nothing but benefit numbers and encourage even more plexing-alt lameness (something we have thankfully not seen en masse on A/M front). - The way the plexes work needs to be looked at if any sort of headway is to be achieved. - We also need to look at possible effects of acquiring occupancy to make people want to plex. - Then "land in play" needs to be drastically reduced to discourage the bumblebee plexer from being able to run from plex to plex evading any attempts to kill it.
But it is a moot discussion as CCP is never going to take it up again except to remove the bugs they themselves introduce when they mess about with the code elsewhere (FW is a mash-up of bits and pieces from all over the damn place!) - my faith in them wanting FW to be all it can be is long gone.
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.06.08 19:48:00 -
[17]
Nice suggestions, but if you're not interested in occupancy, then why tie occupancy war into the proposal?
FYI, certain plexes already operate in this manner. The NPCs are activated (in some cases) when you start the timer, not when you enter the plex. Otherwise they stay inactive.
And, all you need to do is open up one of these plexes (or missions) in a heavy pvp system like Tama, OMS, or Heyd and you'll get all the pvp action you want.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.06.08 20:19:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Cearain Well either npcs are ôblob equalizersö, like DR. battlesmith is saying , or they are ônext to nothing.ö But you both canÆt be right. I think they are one thing û dampeners on pvp.
You need to read and understand what I actually said, no where did I say they were "next to nothing". I said the damage can be shrugged off but the eWar is what breaks them .. remove all NPC eWar and be done with it. Pirates have no qualms about taking what little damage the NPCs give, be it in plexes or on gates. The only "WTF..Grrrr" I have ever heard from them is that they were webbed, neuted, painted, jammed, dampened etc. (ie. the eWar) by the rats so they bailed/died/didn't loot .. very rarely do I hear damage from rats mentioned as reason for a missed opportunity.
If you assault a plex that you have not previously been in there is no spawns of consequence, if you are running a timer without clearing rats when an enemy comes in then the fault is your own .. stop speed tanking the bloody things and NPC's become a trifle. A lesson you are free to pass on to the 50%-shields-runner example you gave .. a couple of guys in proper ships (yes even PvP fitted) can wipe out all spawns almost as fast as they arrive.
You need a ôcouple of guysö in ôproper fitsö just to kill the rats? Why not just do away with the rats so you can bring unqualified pvp fits. Not a little bit suboptimal for pvp but ôproperö for plexing fits.
Frowning at everyone who speed tanks the npcs in plexes, even though that is an effective way to plex under the current system, is no real solution.
The basic problem I presented is still the same. Either the rats have no effect or they have an effect. The only effects rats have is that they tend deter pvp. You suggest we mitigate this by taking their stronger effects such as ewar so that they can be ôshrugged off.ö So itÆs just a little bit annoying. But of course reduce ewar and you have more speed tanking. Why not just be done with the stupid npcs and be done with it? People who do plexes generally want to have some sort of active tank ability. This doesnÆt do well with pvp. If you donÆt have some sort of pve active tank you are likely to get caught with some of your tank missing. This stuff is why no one wants to bother with these plexes. (well that and no one may even know you are there)
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.06.08 20:24:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Cearain If we did away with npcs we would make plexing and occupancy pvp but not without strategy. I think the strategy in fw pvp would be some of the richest in eve.
You cannot possibly be that naive. Look at Amarr space, a BC-down blob could linger in Dal/Amamake and reach any Amarr FW system within 5-6 minutes. The whole splitting the blob up will NEVER happen unless you give them reason .. allowing any non-noob ship to plex with not even NPC interference does not.
Ok thatÆs a good example. Consider what would happen if we take a large BC-down gang in Amamake lets say they are faction A. The other side (faction B) is well aware of this large gang. (after all its in that crossroads system) So faction B actually uses some strategy in their attacks. The fc of faction B makes sure everyone enters the plexes at roughly the same time. So fc of the blob in faction A sees that there is a minor plex open with 3 frigates in Asghed, then there is a medium that pops open with 2 cruisers in aset, A major with 2 battleships in taff and a medium with 2 cruiser in sahtogas. (here is a map for those who may not be familiar with the area http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Amarr_VS_Minmatar#sec)
So as the leader of faction A you have some options.
Option 1: Stay in a big blob and start trecking to each system. You chase the smaller gangs out of the plex and then plod on to the next system. Your gang wonÆt likely actually catch anyone as the people in the plex will see local spike and get aligned to a station. As soon as your big fleet moves out they will jump back in the plex. I donÆt think anyone will do that.
Option 2: Try to send fast scouts out to each of the different systems. (yes of course maybe not all of the gang went in the plex.) Get an idea of who is in or out of each plex and then break up your blob to try to fight them and hold the plexes yourself.
Not only does option 2 make more sense. It sounds like a hell of a lot more fun than the current system. I think it also sounds like more fun than anything else in eve right now. Moreover, it doesnÆt take much in the way of changing. We donÆt need to reinvent fw. Just do 2 things and fw would be great. (well again make plexes spawn more often and not mainly at downtime would be important too)
Of course there are very many other options than the one I mentioned but the main point is option 1 is a not gonna work. Strategies will develop. FW militias will start to say hey *why not* fight in these plexes. They will make for good easy to get (yet not staged) fun fights. What is not to like about it?
I tell you what if ccp does these changes and they donÆt work well then I will support you in some sort of big overhaul of fw. But I really think the fw system is quite good itÆs just that there are couple of changes that would dramatically improve it.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.06.08 20:44:00 -
[20]
Originally by: X Gallentius Nice suggestions, but if you're not interested in occupancy, then why tie occupancy war into the proposal?
FYI, certain plexes already operate in this manner. The NPCs are activated (in some cases) when you start the timer, not when you enter the plex. Otherwise they stay inactive.
And, all you need to do is open up one of these plexes (or missions) in a heavy pvp system like Tama, OMS, or Heyd and you'll get all the pvp action you want.
IÆm glad your warming to the suggestions. You ask a fair question. It doesnÆt really need to tie in to occupancy û other than I think winning faction war should have something to do with pvp instead of just pve. I fully understand others will disagree and will like fw occupancy to remain pve centered. Even if the system was not contested (so it doesnÆt really effect occupancy) I would still probably jump in the plexes to get good fights without constantly getting blobbed.
Usually by the time of night I play all the plexes in the busy systems auga amamake dal are closed. I do often try to jump from place to place to get a level 1 or 2 mission in a busy system. But there are just too many backwater systems so its rare that I get one. Even if I do the other side (or the pirates) doesnÆt really know what the size restriction on the mission is before hand. So even in auga (an enemy hub) I will just sit there unless I post in local asking for a fight.
IÆm sure most donÆt even bother to check mission or plexes with the assumption that if I see them come I will just warp off. That is the way the current system works. I donÆt mind asking for a fight in local but I would really prefer the spontaneity of not knowing who will show up etc.
If you like to pvp in smaller gangs just think about how this would work. It may be that there should be overall more plexes spawning though out the day. I tend to think many people who gave up on fw might come back if there were a decent pvp system, like this. I just doubt many read fw threads anymore. If you like the idea, spread the word, and support the thread. If you donÆt feel free to post the issue you have.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
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Nauplius
Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard
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Posted - 2010.06.09 03:00:00 -
[21]
How about:
ù Introduce the notification to chat channels when someone starts running a plex timer, as mentioned.
ù Drastically reduce the number of plexes. Plexes spawn in waves of between one and maybe five plexes (exact number debatable). When all the plexes in a wave are completed, a new wave spawns.
ù Plexes should spawn only in systems adjacent to a system occupied by the enemy (the "border"). Maybe one jump off that. (Some special case would be needed for the situation when one a faction occupies the entire warzone).
ù Ideally, weight the number of plexes per wave by player load. During way off peak hours only one or two might spawn. On peak would more likely see five or whatever the max number of plexes per wave is.
ù Remove the NPCs.
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Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2010.06.10 00:55:00 -
[22]
You're skipping over solutions to chase a "big idea".
You say that plex PvP only happens around downtime. This is true. Thus the solution to your timezone not enjoying plex in the same way is to fix the broken spawning mechanic.
You say that NPCS unbalance the plex. This is true. It is their ewar that is unbalanced and it needs to be removed from all navy NPCs.
Both these issues have been known for a long time and CCP has taken no action.
These major changes aren't needed, just 2 very simple broken things that have been known about since day 1 need to be fixed.
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Aerilis
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.06.12 10:29:00 -
[23]
tl;dr
but if there's even a minute chance of getting a dev to read this thread and maybe think "golly me, fw sure is broken, lets fix it!", I'll vote for it.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.06.14 16:14:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Dr BattleSmith You're skipping over solutions to chase a "big idea".
You say that plex PvP only happens around downtime. This is true. Thus the solution to your timezone not enjoying plex in the same way is to fix the broken spawning mechanic.
You say that NPCS unbalance the plex. This is true. It is their ewar that is unbalanced and it needs to be removed from all navy NPCs.
Both these issues have been known for a long time and CCP has taken no action.
These major changes aren't needed, just 2 very simple broken things that have been known about since day 1 need to be fixed.
I agree that plexes need to spawn much more often throughout the day.
But you say we need to remove the ewar from the npcs. (you say this will balance the npcs û I have my doubts but maybe your right) I just donÆt see why we have npcs at all. To the extent they have an effect on the pvp fights itÆs a negative effect. Removing npcs will balance things wonÆt it?
What do you think of the idea of letting militias know where and when a plex is entered? I suppose this is the biggest change of my proposal. ItÆs not really a big change. ItÆs just an improvement to help pvpers get fights faster. No more wandering around hoping to find someone in a plex that wonÆt immediately warp off.
You can have plexes all over but to the extent you have npcs in the plexes people will need to pve their fits. And if we donÆt know where they are that means we do a lot of roaming around for nothing.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
BFish
Gallente Bushwhackers Rough Necks
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Posted - 2010.06.17 07:30:00 -
[25]
I disagree with OP.
Back in my FW days when it first came out, I remember hanging around in a fleet of roughly 30 people, sitting around in a system when someone would say on eve voice "Guys, I just heard that the squids have contested *Insert system here*", and the hype, confusion and adrenaline fueled race to that system that followed.
Plexes may not be every's PVP cup of tea, but plexes cause PVP whether you like it or not. -----------------
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.06.17 14:57:00 -
[26]
Originally by: BFish I disagree with OP.
Back in my FW days when it first came out, I remember hanging around in a fleet of roughly 30 people, sitting around in a system when someone would say on eve voice "Guys, I just heard that the squids have contested *Insert system here*", and the hype, confusion and adrenaline fueled race to that system that followed.
BFish those days are gone. People have since realized that ôhide and go seekö pve plexing is the optimal way to plex with the current mechanics. They orbit the button and finish the plex before anyone sees them. If they get seen then itÆs often a mismatch leading to them either warping off or the other side not going in. There are exceptions but that is the general protocol - if you want to plex in an optimal way.
People who used to do what you described have long since figured this out about the current occupancy mechanic. Now the vast majority of fw pilots rightly think the plexing mechanic is too stupid to bother with. Its time to adjust the mechanic so people will start doing what you describe again.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Patrice Macmahon
Department of Defence
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Posted - 2010.06.18 00:15:00 -
[27]
I like the premise to this.
To reduce the uber blob events, you could push the idea of arena style capture points, each fw side only gets so many ships within a particular compound. But that could lead to alt abuse and other implications.
But if there was some way to emphasize small, well formed squads inside of complexes duking it out, you could remove the NPC's and let the factions honestly go at it.
I mean, you'll still have the massive combat in the systems exteiror to the compound, those are allways fun, but once inside it would become more tactics specific rather than shear numbers specific.
The Intakis have an obligation to defend the Federation, but not to assult others on its behalf. |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.06.21 15:11:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Patrice Macmahon I like the premise to this.
To reduce the uber blob events, you could push the idea of arena style capture points, each fw side only gets so many ships within a particular compound. But that could lead to alt abuse and other implications.
But if there was some way to emphasize small, well formed squads inside of complexes duking it out, you could remove the NPC's and let the factions honestly go at it.
I mean, you'll still have the massive combat in the systems exteiror to the compound, those are allways fun, but once inside it would become more tactics specific rather than shear numbers specific.
I'm glad you like the idea.
The plexes themselves do not limit the actual number of ships that can go in. But they do limit the types of hulls that can go in. This can very helpful for breaking up blobs, because if there is a large bs blob you can simply take medium or minor plexes.
The side that has fewer pilots can still work toward occupancy by trying to get equal numbers for 1 of 4 different plex sizes. They go something like destroyer/faction frig and down for minors. Cruiser and down for medium. BC and down for ?major? and finally open plexes allow anything. So even if you only have 10 active pilots and the other side has 20 you may still be able to put everyone in cruisers and hold a medium plex before the other side can get everyone in cruisers. Your ability to coordinate your attacks becomes more important than just blobbing around.
This would be an important addition to EVE pvp as a whole, as currently every pvp mechanic in eve lacks any real strategic component other than ôform blob and attack.ö
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.06.21 21:16:00 -
[29]
Your suggestion still changes nothing. Plex timer = hide and seek. PvPers get bored chasing afk plexing alts and move on to do something else. afk plexing alt returns and caps plex.
If one side wants fight - nothing happens. FW is fail! FW is for losers!
If both sides want fight - something happens. Plexes Rule!!!! Awesome fights! Love all around.
There is no substantial figure of merit that can be implemented that will change this.
Assume one side wants to win Occupancy War, or perhaps make some isk off of LPs for plexes (another suggested proposal) - not get into fights. If figure of merit is # of kills in plex - never enter plex. Pvper bored. If figure of merit is timer - Bail, do something else, and return when pvp threat leaves. Pvper bored. If figure of merit is killing all npcs - Bail, do something else, and return when pvp threat leaves. Pvper bored.
etc....
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.06.22 04:31:00 -
[30]
Originally by: X Gallentius Your suggestion still changes nothing. Plex timer = hide and seek. PvPers get bored chasing afk plexing alts and move on to do something else. afk plexing alt returns and caps plex.
No there would be no more hide and seek plexing. Every time you entered a plex your presence will be announced to everyone in all the militias. There would be a separate channel (maybe 2 -1 for each front) like the current militia channel but it would only give broadcasts. If I entered a minor plex in Ammamake in my merlin it would broadcast something like:
"Ammamake; minor Amarr:Cearain frigate"
*Everyone* in fw would get this message. You can call entering a plex whatever you want but it wonÆt be ôhidingö. It will be the opposite. It will be announcing where you are for the next 10-20 minutes if anyone wants to come fight.
In the scenario above once you chase the first guy off you can close the plex. All the while you will be announcing where *you* are for the next few minutes. So if you are looking for good pvp that will be the way to do it.
If no one wants to pvp then maybe no one will come. But I think thatÆs unlikely. If this announcement mechanic is implemented you will get company if you enter a plex. This will make FW the best small gang pvp in eve.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.07.09 15:44:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Cearain on 09/07/2010 15:44:51 Based on some of the reading on this topic I have added changes 3 and 4 to this proposal. I the reasoning behind these changes remains the same. Adding more plexes throughout the fw regions would prevent blobs from winning. I see no reason why you shoudl need a probe launcher to fight in plexes. -Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Arkady Sadik
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2010.07.12 19:13:00 -
[32]
The absolutely best fights you can have are the ones where you survive with a fraction of structure. That's the ones where you have sweaty hands, heart racing, adrenaline all over.
And exactly those are the fights that are made impossible by the presence of the NPCs. Even if the damage is only minuscle (and it isn't unless you are really moving a lot, which you won't be when webbed, etc.), it's what breaks the fight. No NPCs, please.
(Though it's already now annoying how many people plex, both offensively and defensively, primarily with rokies alts... Might want a minimum ship restriction for plexes, too :-))
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Andreus Ixiris
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2010.08.19 19:12:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Andreus Ixiris on 19/08/2010 19:14:17 Not supported, because it perpetuates the idea that plexes should exist in the first place. If you are not a roleplayer, plexes are boring work for effectively no reward at all. If you are a roleplayer,they are boring and entirely arbitrary work for the reward of having served your country in some utterly unquantifiable and illogical way.
Why were these tactical sites built in deep space, rather than in proximity to important things, like moons, planets, stargates or stations?
Why do the beacons need a capsuleer to "secure" them?
What does "securing" them actually do, and why does a capsuleer orbiting one for an entirely arbitrary length of time make it somehow impossible for a capsuleer on the same side to do exactly the same thing?
Why, in a plex being contested by an enemy, don't all the reinforcement waves just warp in at once and kill him? Why don't reinforcement waves warp in to back up a friendly capsuleer under attack?
Why does a defensive plex being revealed by a friendly capsuleer cause it to show up in local?
Why are you not given rewards for running plexes in uncontested systems, when securing these plexes ensures that they will not be attacked by the enemy?
Why are capsuleers from an allied militia fired on, but someone clearly capturing the plex is not, as long as they have positive standings with the faction the plex belongs to?
Why are plexes not brought online where they're needed (i.e. deeply contested systems), rather than in a completely random distribution? Why are capsuleers given loyalty points for killing each other - destroying entirely replacable assets with other entirely replacable assets - but not for capturing plexes?
Why would any of the factions entrust immediate and vital matters of national security to capsuleers, who almost never do anything that's not either profitable, fun or both?
Plexes don't need to be revamped, they need to be replaced utterly, and all evidence that they ever existed needs to be cleansed with holy fire. ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.08.19 21:11:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Andreus Ixiris Not supported, because it perpetuates the idea that plexes should exist in the first place....
Actually a very good point you bring up, why have plexes?
What could replace them though, some sort of activity metric like you have for 0.0 indices? Tonnage player ships destroyed? Tonnage/Value NPC ships destroyed? Ships in space over time?
What should differentiate offensive/defensive values if anything (personally never understood why capsuleers needs to "defend" with not hostiles in sight)?
PS: I would hate to lose the size restricted nature of plexes as it is a godsend for fun/challenging fights, but if a superior system could be devised it is a small sacrifice to make.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.08.20 00:22:00 -
[35]
Andreus Thank you for your questions. I would start by drawing a distinction between ôgame playö issues and ôrole playö issues. To my mind the ôgame playö issues are generally more important but I do agree having a good ôrole playö backdrop makes the game much better.
Alliance tournament is an example of good game play but poor role play. It involves fun battles but its entirely contrived with made up rules. RvB would be another example of good game play but poor role play. The fights can often be evenly matched but why are they fighting eachother?
I think the proposal would make for the best game play in eve. But let me also address your role play questions because I think that is very important too.
I numbered your questions requesting what I considerö role playö explanations. I will give you your answers by number:
Q1) Why were these tactical sites built in deep space, rather than in proximity to important things, like moons, planets, stargates or stations?
Q2) Why do the beacons need a capsuleer to "secure" them?
Q3) What does "securing" them actually do, and why does a capsuleer orbiting one for an entirely arbitrary length of time make it somehow impossible for a capsuleer on the same side to do exactly the same thing?
A1-3) This isnÆt explained. But as anyone who has studied history knows there are reasons why some troops need to be in certain places at certain times. ItÆs often better to have 100 men in a key place and time than 1000 men to late or misplaced. Would this be the same for space battles? I would imagine so. How would it work? Well I think we can only guess.
But these plexes are apparently the places where some military presence must be at a certain time. I often imagine that what I am doing when I do a plex is giving a show of force. I fly for Amarr. So I imagine that when a system goes ôcontestedö that means that in that solar system there is unrest and support for the competing faction. If I show up in an offensive plex my presence somehow makes it easier for the rebels to do some act which will further promote the amarr empire in that system. Whether that is scare off some sort of minmatar leader who was planning on crushing the rebellion or somehow supplying support for a ground based attack that the amarr want to work.
Is a plex some sort of important power generator that helps direct power to the entire solar system? I donÆt know. I guess the thing is it is clear that in almost all real wars so far there have been lynchpins . These lynchpins are places that would often seem otherwise unimportant. But in the war for whatever reason they are important. Hence the concept of making sure we have troops in certain areas for certain amounts of time is definitely well founded by real world warfare. I agree ccp could do a bit more back story to spell it out more, but in the mean time a bit of imagination can fill that in.
Why are they size limited? I think this can be explained many ways. 1) way would be direct orders that your militia said you are not to commit too many resources to this plex. So you can only commit frigates to that plex etc. I admit this doesnÆt explain why non-militia canÆt enter the plex with bigger ships. But maybe its because when pirates come in they are pretending to be in one or the other militias in order to get through the gate. Hence they need to be in the right ship. Its not really explained but it could be explained in a decent way. The ship restrictions on plexes are just too damn nice for ôgame playö reasons to give up due to a lack of imagination on the ôrole playö front.
continued next post -Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.08.20 00:33:00 -
[36]
Q4) Why, in a plex being contested by an enemy, don't all the reinforcement waves just warp in at once and kill him? Why don't reinforcement waves warp in to back up a friendly capsuleer under attack?
A4) I donÆt know but my proposal does away with npcs and therefore this issue. So to the extent this is troubling to you should support my proposal.
Q5)Why does a defensive plex being revealed by a friendly capsuleer cause it to show up in local?
A5) I agree. I think the plexes are well known to be ôhot spotsö or ôlynch pinsö by both sides and should at the very least be displayed on the overview of everyone in faction war. The idea that you have to probe out what is a hot spot or lynchpin is silly. Especially when there are npcs already there but even with out them there both sides should have the intel and be able to inform their army where they need to go fight. The Generals in the empire shouldnÆt just be like ôok troops go on out there wherever and try to find someplace important to fight for!ö Every pilot would have these important points programmed into their overview of their ship and updated automatically by the command structure.
Q6) Why are you not given rewards for running plexes in uncontested systems, when securing these plexes ensures that they will not be attacked by the enemy?
A6) IÆm not sure. I agree that if you secure anything you should get some reward. But that is truly beside the point of my post. I am trying to make plexing into something that would require pvp skill and be fun. How much or when to reward it is a separate issue.
Q7) Why are capsuleers from an allied militia fired on, but someone clearly capturing the plex is not, as long as they have positive standings with the faction the plex belongs to?
A7) I agree thatÆs silly. My proposal ends this. There would be no npcs so the players would be the ones taking and defending the plexes. I donÆt think the players will refuse to fight war targets because they have a high standing with the militia.
Q8) Why are plexes not brought online where they're needed (i.e. deeply contested systems), rather than in a completely random distribution? Why are capsuleers given loyalty points for killing each other - destroying entirely replacable assets with other entirely replacable assets - but not for capturing plexes?
A8) Well Again I look at plexes similar to hot spots and lynch pins of wars. Not everyimportant battle occurs at a seemingly important place. Why did major battles occur in the places they did? Well there are reasons of course but those reasons are often well beyond the cursory backstory we have in eve. What are the major trade routes for the populations in all these solar systems? Which planets are most important in each solar system from an agricultural, industrial or political view? I mean we know almost none of the *very basic* information on these solar systems, let alone the very nuanced information as to why a certain place might need troops more than another.
IÆm not sure what you mean by ôentirely replaceable assets.ö I suppose anything that can be rebuilt is ôentirely replaceable.ö What do you mean?
Q9) would any of the factions entrust immediate and vital matters of national security to capsuleers, who almost Why never do anything that's not either profitable, fun or both?
A9) I see capsuleers different than you. I think we are the best of the best. One capsuleer is worth 1000 npcs. The armies are thrilled to have us on board
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Cearain
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.09.14 15:22:00 -
[37]
I have decided to put eve down for a bit. The length of time it takes to get decent pvp fights in eve is the main reason. Even after you do all the grinding for isk and buying and moving ships and mods you still don't have a way to find decent fights much faster than an hour of jumping around or waiting around for a fleet to form. I can't commit that much time to a video game. RvB was good but it was a bit too arranged.
FW should IMO be the way for more casual players to find decent pvp fast. I don't think an hour of down time is really fast. Others may disagree.
No I'm not giving away my stuff because I'm not quitting eve. :) Its still the best video game ever. I will likely check back from time to time to see if they do anything to improve this. The suggestions in this thread would definitely dramatically improve the situation. But there are other options.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.11.21 23:43:00 -
[38]
FW plexing is still broken.
The 4 suggestions in the op would make plexing much better - something to actually be proud of doing. It would also help solo and small gangs find *quality* pvp faster.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Lex Starwalker
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Posted - 2011.01.01 19:34:00 -
[39]
Some great ideas here mate! I especially like the idea of militias being informed when a PLEXes are entered.
+1
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Portmanteau
Fumar Puede Matar
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Posted - 2011.01.02 03:49:00 -
[40]
Quote: The entire enemy will be put on notice as to where you are and what you are flying. So your chance of holding the plex depends on your pvp power instead of your pve prowess.
so they will always bring more than you have, how will this help pvp ?
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Aphser
Adhocracy Incorporated
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Posted - 2011.01.02 07:19:00 -
[41]
Some good ideas here. +1
Although having to scan for plexes is really no big deal, tbh. As long as it can be done with onboard scanner it'S just a matter of a couple minutes. Calling for changing that is just laziness speaking IMHO.
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2011.01.02 10:18:00 -
[42]
Your problems #2, #3 and #4 are common to pvp in general. They are not gonna go away, ever. Regardless what you do.
I agree though that plexes should in general be more about pvp. The whole plexing thing needs a complete overhaul tbh.
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Scorpionidae
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Posted - 2011.01.02 12:05:00 -
[43]
I didn't read all the post (Its to long for me) I just like clicking the thumbs up button.
Scorpionidae
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.01.02 21:27:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Portmanteau
Quote: The entire enemy will be put on notice as to where you are and what you are flying. So your chance of holding the plex depends on your pvp power instead of your pve prowess.
so they will always bring more than you have, how will this help pvp ?
First let me say that I am not entirely wed to having this particular intel given. It is more important that we at least know where the plexes are being captured. However, on the whole I do think providing this intel is a good idea for 2 reasons:
1)Your militia would know what ship it is, so surely they would report it.
But more importantly
2)I do think it would lead to more pvp.
Consider this example: You are flying in a rifter. You see on the militia intel channel that there is a minor plex being taken by 1 enemy pilot 5 jumps in one direction and another plex being taken by 1 enemy pilot 5 jumps in the opposite direction.
Now one of the plexes has an enemy merlin which you would engage, the other minor plex has a thrasher which you would not engage. If you know what ships they are flying you will go to the merlin and pvp will likely ensue.
If you donÆt know what ships are involved then you have a good chance of going to thrasher. In that case you will jump the 5 jumps and then use your dscan and see it is a thrasher in there and likely wisely decide not to engage. No pvp.
Now of course you might think consider a different scenario. If you are in a plex in a thrasher they will bring 2 thrashers to kick you out. Perhaps that will be the case but then again maybe you are familiar with pilots and that they only fit t1 mods or are really bad or something and decide to fight both.
But lets assume the most likely result: that is that you will take a pass on fighting two versus 1 in the same ship. So you warp out to another system and start running a different plex. Now the two pilots can either 1) leave one pilot behind to run the plex you started and have the other go after you in whatever plex you started. Or 2) both stay where they are and run the plex you started themselves in which case you can run a plex somewhere else in the same time. Or 3) Both continue to chase you out of plexes.
If they choose the first option you get your pvp fight when you fight the single thrasher that follows you.
Now if they choose the second or third option you are winning occupancy war because you just tied up two pilots with one pilot! You see every pilot is a valuable resource because they could potentially be running plexes. Using 2 to accomplish the same task is a waste.
But the important thing is not necessarily that you are winning the occupancy war. The important thing is *why* you are winning the occupancy war. You are not winning the occupancy war because you are better at pve. You are winning because you are so much better at pvp that the other side needs to commit 2 pilots in order to kick you out of any plex. The side with the better pvpers will definitely have a huge advantage.
By making occupancy truly depend on pvp skill winning occupancy will actually be something that will be worthy of respect and therefore something of value. Nobody respects good pvers. (thatÆs why we donÆt have a pve alliance tournament) This is why not many really cared when caldari won the occupancy fight. Given the current plexing mechanics no informed person thought they won because the average caldari was better at pvp than the average gallente.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2011.01.02 23:48:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Dr BattleSmith on 02/01/2011 23:50:43
Originally by: Cearain
3) Have more plexes pop up through out the regions and throughout the day not just down time.
This is the key to the whole thing and fixes all related issues without further hunting.
Plex spawning mechanics and occupancy are broken beyond being usable.
After downtime there are 3 systems (constellation based occupancy/sov needs fix too) in the combat zone that can be faught over by fleets of any size with any degree of numbers stacking for hours of fun. Three hours after downtime this is no longer possible as you can no longer find plex to force into the target system. For the rest of the day factionwar is not factionwar. Thus you have 2 groups of factionwar pilots.
a) There are those who have played after downtime and see the awesomeness which is factionwar. The best PvP in this game.
b) Then there are those that just "PvP" and think "plex are PvE" because of the broken mechanic.
I'm here to say FW plex are the best and biggest PvP content in this game. With FW plex you can always get a fight. It will always be different. It has many options of where it can occur.
I've seen 10 cruisers be able to get fights with 40 BC. I've seen 5 destroyers force 20 BC to reship and fly into a hostile plex for an awesome fight. I've seen 1 carrier take on 20 matar for fun with the support of BS rats.
Three hours past downtime when factionwar is no longer available for play the same situations result in 100 players being bored and unable to get an engagement started.
We then log for the night and go play WoT.
edit: btw had to switch to support to get any kinda focus on this major expansion that has been abandon by CCP.
Will Incursions be the same? Will Incarnia be the same? Will DUST be the same? Will WoD be the same?
I can only assume "yes".
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.01.04 01:10:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Cearain on 04/01/2011 01:12:06 Dr. Battlesmith
Thanks for at least supporting the topic. I know you aren't thrilled with everything in what I propose. I just hope we get enough support to have csm take something to ccp.
But fw changes are bound to happen. I agree with you FW complex pvp is the best in the game- when you can get it. I don't want CCP to completely dump plexing when they eventually revamp fw. We need to let ccp know how they can improve plexing in a way that creates more of this great pvp.
Originally by: Aphser Some good ideas here. +1
Although having to scan for plexes is really no big deal, tbh. As long as it can be done with onboard scanner it'S just a matter of a couple minutes. Calling for changing that is just laziness speaking IMHO.
LOL You are right itÆs not a big issue. But I need to ask. Why doesn't the military already know where *itÆs own* military complexes are? I mean what kind of sense does that make. General talking to pilot: "Soldier, we lost *all* of our military complexes and we need you to go roaming systems to scan them down."
Pilot: ôwhat do you mean we ælostÆ all of our military complexesö
General: ôWhatÆs not to understand soldier? I canÆt find the____ papers that had their locations. Now you need to roam around the galaxy and scan them down.ö
Pilot: ôWhat!?!? CanÆt you telephone the people in the military complexes and have them *tell* you their location?ö
General: ôThe phone numbers were on the papers giving their locations. ThatÆs why I need you to go warping around the galaxy using your scanner to find them for me. ö
Pilot: ôWell doesnÆt *anyone* know the phone numbers to these military complexes? ö
General: ôNo I lost that paperwork too. Look just warp to every planet in these 50 systems and hit your system scanner. Well hit it 2xs at each planet because itÆs sort of hit or miss.ö
Pilot: ôCan you at least tell me how many military complexes we have in each system? Or was that in the paperworkàö
General: ôYou guessed it now stfu and go find our military complexes. If those politicians ever find out we donÆt even know where are military complexes are it will be both of our a____esö
So as the pilot I dutifully go out and do this. Then the next morning guess what? He lost the papers *again*!! And you have to find all the lost military complexes again! And every single day the same thing seems to happen. I tend to think the only reason we need to scan down these complexes was because ccp didnÆt think we had enough uses for the scanner. Now with wormholes there are more things for people who like launching probes so there is no need for this.
But actual immersion aside, if you have 9 planets in a system then the scanning assuming 1 scan per planet (they recommend 2 scans but realistically you will likely just do 1 scan) that is 4.5 minutes. If you figure about 20 seconds in between each scan for warping etc. That is an extra 3 minutes. So if you scan 6 systems that is 45 minutes of doing nothing but warping and scanning.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Djakku
CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2011.01.07 02:15:00 -
[47]
But why do you always run away in your dual warp core stabbed rifter when I try kill you Cearain? This is not a signature. |
Nauplius
1st Praetorian Guard
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Posted - 2011.01.07 05:30:00 -
[48]
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.01.07 21:51:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Djakku But why do you always run away in your dual warp core stabbed rifter when I try kill you Cearain?
That must have been in a mission not a plex. I do missions in pve ships and I will run.
When I am in a plex I am usually in a ship named something like "fw plexxer" so even the very dumb should be able to find me if they want a fight. The only reason I open plexes is to try to speed up the process of getting in a decent pvp fight.
In a plex I usually just turn away from the rats so they don't aggro me or the enemy.
What do you think of the proposal? -Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2011.01.08 01:06:00 -
[50]
After, what is it 2 years? of complaints about the unfinished expansion that was hyped from the roottops, bought in a lot of new subscribers, then was abandon......
I'd like to hear wtf CCP has to say for themselves.
A devblog "Why we don't want to fix FW" would be good.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.01.16 15:30:00 -
[51]
To be fair apocrypha 1.5 was a great update for fw. It made fw missions viable and really made everything except the core of fw (occupancy plexing) very good.
I do think ccp understood that occupancy plexxing was supposed to be the core to fw. That is why when they released the 1.5 patch they said:
ôSome final words It is important to remember that all the above is not a "fix" for Factional Warfare. It is only the first step of many to put its implementation back into the original vision that was ours during the Empyrean Age release. In the meantime, we do hope you will welcome such changes when they hit Tranquility, which should hopefully be sooner than you think.ö
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=671
It appears they werenÆt quire happy with whatever ideas they had been considering for fixing plexxing and so it has been put on the back burner. I think as players we can offer some ideas of what we would like to see. Hence this proposal.
I think the ideas in this proposal would really make plexing great. If I had an intel channel that told me where enemies were taking plexes I would be using it *all the time* and getting lots of great small scale pvp fights.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.01.16 15:39:00 -
[52]
Now if they would just use the incursion plexes for FW (+easier ones that are soloable), you are already alot further.
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Assassin126
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Posted - 2011.01.16 21:07:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Assassin126 on 16/01/2011 21:17:04 yep something has definitely gota be changed about the gaining occupancy, as ur point 3 says, today i just went around all 7 systems on the minmatar side of the border that were either occupied by amarr or contested, none of them had a plex to take over inside them, i did the check over systems abotu 3 hours after down time, so even if minmatar could drive out every single amarrian in that system for the 21hours left of the day, it would count for nothing
as it is currently, the only pvp is who can hold the system for the first half an hour after downtime
also just read the post about why plex's, if there's another way (more meaningful way) to occupy systems that would be nice :) also a meaning to occupy them, heres an idea, make it a bit like 0.0 is in the way that once you own it, you can upgrade it by doing things in the system
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Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2011.01.16 22:47:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Assassin126 as it is currently, the only pvp is who can hold the system for the first half an hour after downtime
The exceptionally sad thing is, this half an hour is the best PvP the game EveOnline has ever seen.
It's the gold, it's the magic that has been stumbled apon, and it's ignored.
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Deerin
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Posted - 2011.01.20 11:43:00 -
[55]
Although I love the ideas, I still believe that there must be an additional motivation. Big alliances are holding to their own spaces not because of pvp content, but because of economical reasons. Changing occupancy of a system should bring "some" form of economical reward.
A direct reward would be prone to abuse. So it should be in form of additional accessible resources. One thing that comes to my mind is: Let the bunkers spawn Local Militia Force Agents for the occupying faction. These agents should give missions in their occupied systems and around. So that once a system becomes occupied, the occupying side gets access to FW missions with much less travelling involved. Maybe a LP bonus for completing these agents' missions could be added as well.
About OP suggestions:
1) I agree...but there should be some type of interaction with the "button". Maybe a hacking module to hack it to run the timer.
2) Just a message like "Amarrian Slavers are attacking our Major Stronghold in Dal system." should be enough. Knowing amount of pilots and shiptypes beforehand is really too much intel. That intel has to be gathered by pilots.
3) Although I generally agree with this one, post DT when there are fewer players, has better chance of nice small gang action. As the evening nears the size of gangs grows and pvp turns to blob warfare. A solution would be limiting number of ships that can enter a plex at one time. For example Installations would allow max 3 Players from each side at one time. Outposts 6, Compunds 10 and Strongholds Unlimited. This would somewhat limit the blobs inside plexes...thought gate itself would be completely blobbable.
4) I agree, this way I can use that utility slot for some other utility than probe launcher. Another solution would be increasing range of on-board scanner for FW plexes only. This way overview won't be crowded with un attended plexes and we can know which Amarr Minor Facility we have to warp to get combat, when there are 3 of them in system :P
------------------------------------------- Die Amarr Die!!! |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.01.20 18:10:00 -
[56]
Edited by: X Gallentius on 20/01/2011 18:15:18 Dumb idea time.
System Control Emphasized: Semi-passive income = K*[max(0,# of systems on your side flipped in last "N" months - # of systems on other side has flipped over last "N" months)]*[[Your VP over last "N" months]/[Your faction's VP over the last "N" months]]
Tune K, and "N" to suit your needs.
VP emphasized: Offensive and defensive plexing matters. Income = K* [max(0,VP your side - VP their side)]* [Your VP/Your side VP] (updated once per day)
Tune K to suit your needs.
or maybe just Passive income = K*(Your VP/Total VP) Faction LP = K*(Your VP/Total VP)
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.01.20 21:45:00 -
[57]
Thanks for the ideas guys. DonÆt forget that if support the discussion here to check the box.
I do agree that there needs to be better rewards for plexing. The op doesn't address that issue. The intent of the op changes were really just to make FW plexing more pvp centered and more fun û in itself. But I am happy to have these ideas in the thread because giving better rewards is likely also necessary.
X Gallentius
I like the idea there. The formulas you use seem to take into account the 2 main concerns with awarding occupancy. The first concern is that everyone will just keep piling into the winning side. The second concern is people will have alts in fw that do nothing but collect the rewards. Your formula seems to take into account both of these concerns. So I tend to like the formulas.
But let me ask this: What would be the matter with simply dividing a set of lp for the completion of a plex to everyone who is on grid? If there are more people on grid fewer lp for each pilot.
Perhaps it should a bit of both. A formula similar to what you have proposed as well as some small immediate payment to the pilots involved. Perhaps the immediate payout should be based on how long you were in the plex. That way if someone was mainly just sitting outside the gate because they wanted to keep their presence out of the intel they can, but they wonÆt get as much reward.
To help the side that is out numbered maybe there could be some sort of balancing as systems get occupied. Lets say Caldari have occupied x% of the systems on the gallente and caldari front. (x = some number greater than 50 obviously) Then all of a sudden the gallente can enter minor plexes in cruisers and medium plexes in bcs etc. Caldari would still be limited to the original plex size. Hence it becomes harder and harder to completely win. If it comes down to 1 or 2 systems left they may even let battleships in the minor plexxes. I can envision final stands where 20 battleships and 30 bcs are swarmed by 500 frigates and destroyers. Who knows how it would work out.
For the sake of space I wonÆt give the story line explanations other than to say there are some.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.01.20 21:50:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Cearain on 20/01/2011 21:51:21 Edited by: Cearain on 20/01/2011 21:50:45
Originally by: Deerin Although I love the ideas,....1) I agree...but there should be some type of interaction with the "button". Maybe a hacking module to hack it to run the timer.
2) Just a message like "Amarrian Slavers are attacking our Major Stronghold in Dal system." should be enough. Knowing amount of pilots and shiptypes beforehand is really too much intel. That intel has to be gathered by pilots.
3) Although I generally agree with this one, post DT when there are fewer players, has better chance of nice small gang action. As the evening nears the size of gangs grows and pvp turns to blob warfare. A solution would be limiting number of ships that can enter a plex at one time. For example Installations would allow max 3 Players from each side at one time. Outposts 6, Compunds 10 and Strongholds Unlimited. This would somewhat limit the blobs inside plexes...thought gate itself would be completely blobbableà..
1)As far as interaction with the button I donÆt know anything about hacking. Would that require something else we would need to fit on the ship? I really think ccp needs to make it so that the challenge to plexing is the other side trying to blow you up before the timer runs. Anything else is a sign of failure. Any pve requirements would just cover up the fact that the occupancy system comes up short.
2)I think the intel would make the game better. The whole idea is both sides would have to react fast and assign pilots to the multitude of battles that would be constantly fought throughout the 8 regions of fw (I think each faction has 2 regions in fw so 4 factions x2 =8 regions) before those timers run out. It shouldnÆt be something where you see they are attacking then have to fly over there find out what they are in and then fly back and get the right ships etc. and in the meantime they shipped up etc. That is too much like the current system. The npcs can see what ships they are in so they should report it and both sides should be reacting to constantly changing set of conditions in a somewhat frantic way to send pilots to try to hold/take these plexes.
3) Because there is such a large area of space to cover, and already ship size restrictions on plexes, blobbing wouldnÆt be a good way to go about the occupancy war. If you are taking plexes with 3 ships when you only need 1 then you are only 1/3 as efficient as you should be. The other side will be capping 3xs as many plexes per pilot as you are. And yes blobs could camp the gate to the plex but again that is inefficient. Instead of those players sitting out (and therefore perhaps not getting the award) they could be doing plexes in other systems. For these reasons I think they should allow as many ships as you want in the plex. Newer pvpers may indeed need numbers to take on more experienced pvpers. As they gain experience in pvp they will be more valuable to the militia.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.01.21 00:00:00 -
[59]
Whatever the end result, you need 1. Self-limiting rewards.
Total capacity: "K", distributed by various means. If only one guy is doing plexing everywhere then he's going to get a TON of isk or lp every day. This activity will be seen as a GREAT way to make some easy isk. As the number of plexers increases, the rewards "K" will be split among many more people and it'll likely balance out to whatever other forms of income are available.
2. Conflict.
To be rewarded you must complete the plexing mission, and to maximize the reward you need to maximize your rewards and minimize your opponent's rewards.
VP to LP concept should have been implemented years ago. Whatever is used for VP should be used for this figure of merit. In this case if there are 1000 poeople piled into a plex, then the VP awarded should be 1000*baseline VP. The reason is that those same 1000 people could have been running 1000 missions instead. The total distributed will still be a function of total VP awarded so whether 1000 guys do one plex, one guy does one plex, or 1000 guys do 1000 plexes, the total payout is the same.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.01.21 14:49:00 -
[60]
Why do you think it should be self limiting?
I agree with the conflict idea. IÆm not sure how to implement it though. Perhaps they could put more fw exclusive items that are available to all militias. That way basic econmics would encourage you to keep your competitors from getting lop.
Perhaps you would get some sort of small lp bonus if any ships blow up in the taking of the plex. It couldnÆt be too big because people would exploit it by blowing up alts in rookie ships but if the reward were not that much larger it woudlnÆt be worth it.
Here are some more thoughts on rewards:
If the new plexing mechanic works at all like I think it would there will be a lot more exploding ships in fw. A *lot* more. Everyone will know where you are doing these so there will be many more fights. If it didnÆt pay anything all the pilots would be bankrupt.
IÆm thinking the value that you get from the plex should be enough on average to cover say 2/3 of your losses for t2 fit t1 hulls.(after insurance and with t1 rigs)
So lets say a t2 fit frigate costs 6 mill a t2 fit cruiser cost 25 mill a t2 fit bc costs 35 mill. (just throwing some numbers out there.)
Lets assume you get about 2.5k isk per lp. And lets assume that on average you will finish the equivalent of 2 plexes solo before getting blown up. Or if you travel with 2 pilots you will finish 4 but the lp would be divided equally so itÆs the same. The thing is the bigger the group you travel with the more you will likely finish before getting blown up but you will also be dividing your rewards more ways.
If you can beat the odds and get 3 plexes in before you die you paid for your ship if you can beat the odds and get more than that then you are actually profiting. Not as much as running missions but youÆre pvping!
So lets say a minor defensive plex would pay 600 lp a minor offensive would pay 850 lp. Offensive pay a bit more because the defensive plexes are basically in your back yard and offensive may require some travel. Of course, some pilots may start to base deep in enemy territory which spreads things out and is, in general, good.
Medium plexes would pay about 2500 lp for a defensive and 3500 lp for an offensive etc. Again the numbers I propose are pretty rough if they are wrong we can adjust it. (and no I didnÆt use a calculator so its likely not exactly 2/3s)
CCP should make plenty of plexes available in allot of systems when there are more people online and fewer available more spread out when fewer people are online. Otherwise timezones where there are few people online will simply cap plexes with much less fighting.
All of this would need to be tweaked over time.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.01.21 15:25:00 -
[61]
Edited by: X Gallentius on 21/01/2011 15:25:13 The problem with a direct lp payout without a cap on total resources(unfortunately) is that one set of alts will run plexes risk free and the other set of alts will run plexes risk free - no conflict.
Fighting over limited resources (hopefully) means that there will be gangs going around trying to hunt those plexers. How these gangs that hunt plexers get paid... I don't know, but I bet there could be some sort of gentlemen's agreement with the guys who actually run the plexes.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.01.21 16:34:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Cearain on 21/01/2011 16:34:37 Edited by: Cearain on 21/01/2011 16:34:13
Originally by: X Gallentius Edited by: X Gallentius on 21/01/2011 15:25:13 The problem with a direct lp payout without a cap on total resources(unfortunately) is that one set of alts will run plexes risk free and the other set of alts will run plexes risk free - no conflict.
Fighting over limited resources (hopefully) means that there will be gangs going around trying to hunt those plexers. How these gangs that hunt plexers get paid... I don't know, but I bet there could be some sort of gentlemen's agreement with the guys who actually run the plexes.
I'm thinking I may not understand fully what you are saying here. But I to donÆt want this to turn into some sort of new way to get isk without pvp. However, it seems to me that with the limited direct payout described there would still be a lot of conflict. Consider these points:
1)Because the other militia knows exactly where you are plexing as soon as you enter the plex you will almost certainly get company. You will probably find there are people doing plexes within 1 or 2 jumps of you. WouldnÆt you go check it out if you were roaming?
2)As long as plexing pays much less than fw missions and high sec missions people will not plex primarily as a means of income. If you just want to carebear you would still be *much* better off doing fw missions. Consider how many lp you can make per hour doing fw missions. Whatever that may be.
Now consider how many lp you will get plexing. Even if no one responded to the calls the plex timers take long enough that you would be much better off isk wise running fw missions. Considering a minor plex timer runs 10 minutes. So with *ideal* circumstances where you 1)never get chased out, or blown up, 2) you are able to do it solo, and 3)there is 0 travel time you could only do 6 in an hour. So 6 x750 lp = 4,500 lp/hour. For medium plexes there is a 15 minute timer so again assuming the same completely unrealistic ideal conditions you could only run 4 per hour yielding 14,000 lp per hour.
Even if you have multiple accounts you of course should then be able to multiply the amount of isk you make by running fw missions as well so thatÆs a wash. But even if it doesnÆt scale exactly the same the lp gains from plexing even given unrealistic conditions are not even coming close to missioning.
If you want to fight rats and run from pvp you still have the fw missions. That will still be the much better way to make isk. This lp for plexing will just be an attempt to help defray the substantial losses of ships pilots who fight for occupancy will no doubt incur.
These changes to occupancy plexing will make it a way to get constant, good quality, small scale pvp without getting blobbed. Something ccp has never been able to do in any other setting. I am convinced that with these changes fw plexing would be a *huge* draw for pvpers and there would be more than enough conflict.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.03.21 21:35:00 -
[63]
Here is an idea to make fw occupancy meaningful without making it so everyone joins the winning faction:
Lets say Amarr gain occupancy of the system Evati. Right now there are a few minmatar npc stations there. Well lets say that with time after Amarr take over, there is a certain percentage chance that those stations become amarr npc stations. So a Boundless Creation might become a Carthum Conglomerate! The idea is that companies are generally not well served to open up factories in places that are occupied by the enemy. They would tend to fair poorly for numerous reasons.
In other words the players are shaping the universe. It would no longer be a universe that CCP made and always remained the same.
The chance of this happening may depend on how long occupancy is held. Say every 6 months you roll the dice on any enemy faction corps leaving. There may also be a chance (smaller chance) that a corp from the sister faction would move in { so perhaps Lai Dai (Caldari) would move in. There would be new agents that go in to that etc.
The RP story would be Boundless decides to close down facilities in Evati due to a sudden increase in taxes and sells station to Carthum/Lai Dai. (or some such)
Now it would be an indirect benefit because you usually have high standings with the faction you fight for in fw. So you would gain new agents and resources for those in your faction. But then again if one side loses many agents the value of that lp should see a slight rise because the goods are more scarce.
So it would be a decent storyline consequence that wouldnÆt likely lead to a lopsided war.
Would this work for actual militia stations? That might be going too far and lead to a lopsided war. But maybe not. If they added some decent faction specific items to the fw lp store there would be a natural balance. Those lp would be worth more. I certainly think many amarr mission runners would fight to keep huola.
If for example minmatar took over huola 24th crusade station and it became a tribal liberation force station then the missions would have to send minmatar back into minmatar space. The agent might say something like ô I figured we were stretching ourselves too thin in capturing this station. Now the amarr are starting to attack us back at our home stations àö
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.03.23 15:00:00 -
[64]
Ok so I was thinking about this idea and figured out there may be a problem - ecm. Lets say your in a minor plex. What is the best ship to use? well a griffin with multspecs will perma jam every other frigate. So they would need two or three ships to drive you out. Not very fun.
But there are various solutions that would actually not only solve this problem but I think make fw plexing overall.
Here is one potential solution:
Inside each races military complex they have boosted the strength for their own targeting systems. So in an Amarr complex radar would be boosted 20Xs. (IÆm sure pie would be happy about this) In other words, jamming an amarr ship in its own military won't work.
If you enter the minmatar plex then using the ladar would be boosted 20xs. (IÆm sure Pie just decided this idea stinks)
Now so that both sides do not always have to use the same 2 races of ships (ôcaldari and gallenteö or ôminmatar and amarrö) We could have some allied plexes spawn in each allies territory. So say 25% of the plexes in minmatar space are gallente military compounds. Some amarr would be found in caldari etc. And yes allies should be able to cap plexes for their allies.
Lets face it ecm is nice when you are trying to fight outnumbered but it sucks for solo/and really small scale pvp. On the whole I think this would chill the use of ecm in general where it isnÆt an issue. If it were to become an issue people could start using the correct race ships to cap the plexes.
Moreover I think this would add a certain amount to the rp of fw.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Cassus Temon
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Posted - 2011.03.23 23:40:00 -
[65]
Problems:
1) FW occupancy usually has little to do with pvp. Pvp and occupancy are often very different types of activity. Or put differently FW occupancy involves too much pve and not enough pvp.
2)FW pvp too often consists attacking someone and then getting blobbed.
3)Too much time is spent shipping up or down.
4)Too much time is spent looking for a similar sized gang you may want to engage as opposed to run from or that will just run from you.
Solution:
1) Remove npcs from occupancy related plexes. Npcs in the plexes ruin it. Who wants to fight with your ability to win gimped by some intangible amount of rat dps and ewar from rats? ItÆs lame fighting when you are under fire and ewar from npcs. Really I donÆt want npcs whoring my killmails anyway.
2) Inform Militias when players enter plexes!
When someone from fw enters a complex gate all militias should know who entered, where, ship types and the plex type. This is intel that should just be provided via a separate chat channel. After all if a system is contested that means both sides likely have npc spies there giving info. (here I do not mean player spies but npc militia spies that will post in the channel but they do not fly around in ships. They are more like bureaucratic spies. The only way their presence would be known in game is they would post in the ôplex intelö chat channel) This way the players could get a gang out there to fight the enemy pvp gang before the plex runs. No npcs in the fight. Instead information about where you can find pvp!
3) Have more plexes pop up through out the regions and throughout the day not just down time.
4) donÆt require scanners just have the plexes appear.
Comments:
If ccp made those two changes I think plexing would make fw the absolute best pvp mechanic in the game. Will it solve everything? No but it will, I believe substantially cut down on the problems I listed above.
I would point out 3) plexes shouldnÆt mainly spawn at downtime. They should be spawning throughout the day and frequently. I thought the csm already recommended this to ccp û though I could be wrong. How will this make plexing more of a pvp activity? By removing the npcs people will fit their ships for pvp. There will be no trade offs that need to be made for dealing with the various rats. Fit your ship for pvp and go capture systems.
WonÆt this lead to people just flying noob ships in plexs? That is where the second change comes in. Currently if you are going to do plexes the most effective way is to get in a small ship that can tank the npcs and hope the timer runs before the enemy knows your even there. The current mechanics make this the smart way to plex. :snip:
Bold = Very good idea. The whole Plex idea is a little odd; unless you conider it as a 'moving enemy militia' site. A good idea, would be to have the 'little teal text, pop-up in Militia chat; with, "Enemy Fleet spotted in #System#; move to counter, advance, ASAP", or some such. You could also add FW Plexes to the Map; highlighting all current, Militia activity for the faction you are in. Incursion like features; could be added to the Journal, for major Plexes. Telling you what ships, and pilots to expect; is unneccessary, and would FW PvP entirely. That bring's us to the next one.
Italic's = If they are indeed, moving enemy fleets; then you should have to scan them down. ..or, at least, run your scanner to detect them. If you want to 'detect enemy pilots; look in local, and use Combat probes.
Underlined = If the plex is there, because of enemy fleet movement; why would'nt there be a fleet present. Kind of ruins the whole idea; does it not. Player fleets responding; are Elite reinforcements. Remove that; and it's just PvP. Go Pirate.You don't lose Standings that way..
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Omega Sunset
Caldari Roughnecks
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Posted - 2011.03.24 22:08:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Cearain
3) Have more plexes pop up through out the regions and throughout the day not just down time.
To me this is the big breaking point. Part of subscribing to EVE was to get involved in factions (my fav thus far being SWG pre-CU/NGE), but I've been holding off here thus far; from training a faction character. 4AM my time is no time to log-in for me. Needs to be a system that is the best points from old SWG and old Planetside imo (mostly regarding bases/plexes), but this is simply broken here. Needs to be taken care of before incarna is released. Thought CCP was serious about PvP until I researched the faction system. I'm just turning into another highsec carebear for the most part :( and that's no life. Almost worse than being a highsec wardec carebear corp.
Pilot's Journal |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.03.25 13:41:00 -
[67]
They've fixed half of it. Plexes respawn immediately after they are capped - if that plex respawns in a system with same occupancy. Otherwise it waits until after DT to respawn.
Ex: Gallente defensive plex respawns in Gallente held system - respawns right away. Ex: Gallente defensive plex respawns in Caldari held system - respawns after DT.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.03.27 03:15:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Cassus Temon Italic's = If they are indeed, moving enemy fleets; then you should have to scan them down. ..or, at least, run your scanner to detect them. If you want to 'detect enemy pilots; look in local, and use Combat probes.
Underlined = If the plex is there, because of enemy fleet movement; why would'nt there be a fleet present. Kind of ruins the whole idea; does it not. Player fleets responding; are Elite reinforcements. Remove that; and it's just PvP. Go Pirate.You don't lose Standings that way..
IÆm glad you like some of the ideas posted. The issue I take with scanning is not really all that important but I do think it slows the pvp action down a bit. Also having to scan for them all does not make sense.
The FW complexes are not just npc ships. They are compounds and bases that you enter through an acceleration gate. Inside there are npcs that ôspawnö apparently from nothingness. But the compounds do not move at least not for 24 hours.
That is why its actually odd to be in the Amarr Militia and have to go warping around scanning looking for *our own* military compounds, so we can defend them. Who lost the map?
As for the *enemy* compounds it is possible we would have to go looking for them. But it would seem equally possible that someone else in the militia would have located an enemy outpost and simply let us know so that we can go capture it.
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.03.28 15:51:00 -
[69]
If you want to do fw occupancy you are by far best served by being online right after downtime. If you can't be online at that time you will have a very limited effect compared to those who can.
Originally by: X Gallentius They've fixed half of it. Plexes respawn immediately after they are capped - if that plex respawns in a system with same occupancy. Otherwise it waits until after DT to respawn.
Ex: Gallente defensive plex respawns in Gallente held system - respawns right away. Ex: Gallente defensive plex respawns in Caldari held system - respawns after DT.
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.04.21 14:11:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Cassus Temon Remove that; and it's just PvP. Go Pirate.You don't lose Standings that way..
Going pirate means only flying larger ships that can tank the sentry guns or spending an even longer time looking for decent pvp. I'm not really interested in scannign down miners or pve ships.
The concern over standings seems a bit overdone. You gain standings for the faction you fight for and only lose standings for the faction you fight against.
In faction war I generally will fight just about anyone I run across. Yet about 90% of my fights are/were against the opposing faction. I can "go pirate" and stay in fw. But leaving faction war just means I will have about 10xs fewer pvp encounters. -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.04.21 20:58:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Cearain If you want to do fw occupancy you are by far best served by being online right after downtime. If you can't be online at that time you will have a very limited effect compared to those who can.
Not entirely true.
"Overall activity" wins out over "after downtime" when you are defending or attacking an area with a large number of systems that are held by the same side (the baseline status quo right now) since you can force respawns into those systems throughout the day.
"After downtime" beats "overall activity" when you are defending or attacking one system that has been occupied while all the other systems are occupied by the other side (Ladistier a couple of weeks ago for example). In this case, ALL of the respawns into the system happen at after downtime.
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Bienator II
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Posted - 2011.04.23 03:18:00 -
[72]
there should be a reward or a strategical reason why you should care about conquering systems.
a few examples: - FW missions from agents only spawn in conquered systems (lvl5 missions? something cool at least) - npcs in plexes have more bounty as usual (but only for the faction holding the system) - combine two eve features: open a wormhole connecting the system with the militia home system (reinforcements...)
make enemies suffer: - decreased lp/rewards (the more systems occupied the worse) - we have incursions... they have system wide implications, lets do something similar - yes. docking rights
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.05.02 17:29:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Cearain on 02/05/2011 17:29:43 Although I agree that there could and should be some sort of effect from gaining occupancy, I dont think that addresses the real problem.
The real problem is running fw plexes is a boring activity often involving pve and not a fun one involving small gang pvp.
"It took less than a week to achieve the maximum faction warfare rank (Divine Commodore), à.111 faction warfare complexes were captured à I did not kill anyone in the process..ö Ankhesentapemkah Posted - 2008.06.18 02:29:00
That is what needs to be fixed. This proposal would fix it.
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.05.02 18:40:00 -
[74]
Edited by: X Gallentius on 02/05/2011 18:40:37 Your proposal doesn't solve the problem. We have guys running around low sec all day long looking for mission runners and plexers. We know where they are. We, and they, know how to counter NPCs.
The plexers (and mission runners), the ones who want a fight, give us a fight. Great fun!
The other plexers (and mission runners), the ones interested in system occupancy (or making isk), run away and don't give a fight. Boring!
You are then either forced to orbit a button for 20 minutes (or hang out for 12 hours) to grief, err, keep them from acheiving their objectives.
Solution: Ignore the occupancy weenies who don't want to actually fight and instead go have some fun finding plexers that do.
I am beginning to believe that having a resolution to the conflict not based on absolute time is the key to more fun. Offensive plexing: Kill all the NPCs and you're done. Offensive Mission Running: Complete mission you're done. Defensive plexing: ??, Defensive Mission running: Some poison pill like Cutting the Net that effectively fails their mission if they don't fight you.
Figure out how to grief defensive plexers who aren't interested in fights, and you figure out the Occupancy solution.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.05.02 19:30:00 -
[75]
Originally by: X Gallentius Edited by: X Gallentius on 02/05/2011 18:40:37 Your proposal doesn't solve the problem. We have guys running around low sec all day long looking for mission runners and plexers. We know where they are. ....
I'm not sure who the "we" is in your quote. But your entire militia does not know where every plexer is. I canÆt emphasize enough how this will change fw plexing.
I have sat in plexes for over an hour. (I donÆt even start the timer because I donÆt want the npc agro on me or the enemy) Mostly IÆm in ships ranging from t1 frigates to t1 cruisers. I find it very hard to believe that *no one* in the entire opposing militia wanted a pvp fight with those sorts of ships. And yes I have spent some time on the gallente front sitting in a merlin in minor and medium plexes waiting for fights. If you knew I was there, why didnÆt you come fight?
Seriously get a t1 hull and go sit in plexes. I think you will find you only get about 1 decent fight per hour! I had been doing that for months, but an hour is too long to wait for a single 60 second fight. So I am letting my accounts run out and will resub when ccp develops something where I can get about 4-8 decent small scale fights an hour.
LetÆs face it you didnÆt know I was there- even if you were logged on. Even some of the people in local likely didnÆt know where in local I was. Like you say currently you go chasing someone around. Which we both agree is bad gameplay.
But if we were alerted where the plexes were being taken then we would not need to ôchaseö people. The best way to do plexes would be to split up your gang throughout the relevant low sec regions. That way the person running would have nowhere to go since there would be someone else a few jumps over chasing him out of a plex. In the meantime you would be doing plexes yourself waiting for others to come to fight you or going over a jump or two to fight or chase the enemy.
You would be on teamspeak/vent deciding if you wanted to gang up on a larger target or how to best use each and every pilot throughout the fw regions, instead of just telling the blob to hold on gate and call primaries.
ThatÆs right, the best way to win the occupancy war would be to break up that blob.
Pretty much everyone in eve who wants allot of, easy to find, quality, small gang pvp would join fw in order to do plex fighting. That is allot of people! I and many others would actually start playing the game again.
The inside of a plex would not be a good place to go to avoid pvp. These regions would fill up with lots of players stockpiling t1 insurable ships to go pvp in right close to the action.
Suddenly capturing 111 plexes would actually be an accomplishment! Winning the occupancy war would actually be an accomplishment right up there will winning the alliance tournament. Suddenly being good at fw plexing is seen as meritorious and doing the plexes would be fun 23/7.
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.05.02 20:42:00 -
[76]
Edited by: X Gallentius on 02/05/2011 20:48:21
Originally by: Cearain I'm not sure who the "we" is in your quote. But your entire militia does not know where every plexer is. I canÆt emphasize enough how this will change fw plexing.
People will (have) ignore(d) the broadcasts after the "Nth" time they run out to Maintenault only to get blueballed by a plexing alt. Your "reward" for pushing them out is to sit on button for 20 minutes. Problem not solved.
Note: If somebody wants fights in a plex, they open them in OMS, Heyd, Tama, or some other system that had lots of wts and pirates in it. Lots of good fights.
Edit: Buy yeah maybe it would work as a good "dating service" if the names of the pilots involved were broadcast as well.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.05.02 21:46:00 -
[77]
Originally by: X Gallentius Edited by: X Gallentius on 02/05/2011 20:48:21
Originally by: Cearain I'm not sure who the "we" is in your quote. But your entire militia does not know where every plexer is. I canÆt emphasize enough how this will change fw plexing.
People will (have) ignore(d) the broadcasts after the "Nth" time they run out to Maintenault only to get blueballed by a plexing alt. Your "reward" for pushing them out is to sit on button for 20 minutes. Problem not solved.
Note: If somebody wants fights in a plex, they open them in OMS, Heyd, Tama, or some other system that had lots of wts and pirates in it. Lots of good fights.
Edit: Buy yeah maybe it would work as a good "dating service" if the names of the pilots involved were broadcast as well.
Yes a dating service might be a good analogy. More like speed dating but you do more than talk. And yes the pilot names should be broadcast as well. But I will tell you hide and seek plexing would no longer be viable. People will go into plexes with the expectation of getting fights and those expectations will be met.
There are too many players in eve crying out for small gang pvp for this to be anything other than a huge hit. This would change eve from a game that only people with way too much time on their hands can play to a game that people would be logging in and getting good fights in a matter of 3-5 minutes! It would be a constant rush.
I will admit I didnÆt spend much time at the Gallente front but when I did I went to the places you mention. No fights just allot of sitting around inside plexes.
I did the same in Kourmonen and Ammamake and Auga and Kamela and Dal. Lots of sitting around wasting time very little fighting. That is what the current eve is all about. But it could offer allot more.
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Kaelie Onren
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Posted - 2011.05.03 02:37:00 -
[78]
Sorry if this is naive, but can't we just pay militia for military conquests (and fine the losers)? Won't that incentivize them to attack and defend their complexes? How much you lose depends on how many NPCs on your side that were killed. (presumably they aren't capsuleers, so the Navies are hiring these militia to bolster their forces) Same for rewards, get paid depending on the number of hostile NPCs that are killed. That may take a little of the heat off pvp once NPC civi navies show up in a fight, as there is money to be won/lost.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.05.03 07:03:00 -
[79]
In the downtime frenzy when it still existed, both sides would have near perfect intel for an entire constellation at a time and 'good fights' were not happening more than once/twice per day.
Eve players are risk averse by nature so if they can outnumber the target they will. Lets say you give out plex location and pilot name, rabbits are soon identified and ignored while fighters are swarmed which in turn makes them rabbits .. all the while the rabbits are closing plexes at will.
If the aim is to close plexes (which it is for all standing grinding alts) then the life of a rabbit is the only sensible route ..
In short: You cannot polish the current system to any kind of shine. It has to be deconstructed and rebuilt if it is to have any sort of meaning or value.
Originally by: Kaelie Onren Sorry if this is naive, but can't we just pay militia for military conquests (and fine the losers)? ...
You would need to make it pretty damn high pay to make it worthwhile, especially if timers are to stay .. ISK/hr is all that matters to the people you would attract. Note: You already get pretty good ISK for offensive plexing by way of tags and loot just not a widely known fact.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.05.03 13:35:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida In the downtime frenzy when it still existed, both sides would have near perfect intel for an entire constellation at a time and 'good fights' were not happening more than once/twice per day.
Eve players are risk averse by nature so if they can outnumber the target they will.
That is not because Eve players are genetically cowards. ItÆs because the game mechanics never reward anyone to engage in anything except blob warfare. The game mechanics proposed in this thread would make it so the strategy is no longer to blob up but to stay spread out and fight.
Again itÆs really easy to make the fighting spread out. Make a mechanic where people have to be at several places at the same time. Just because ccp has never added that to the game doesnÆt mean it canÆt be done û or even that it would be difficult to do.
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Lets say you give out plex location and pilot name, rabbits are soon identified and ignored while fighters are swarmed which in turn makes them rabbits .. all the while the rabbits are closing plexes at will.
If the aim is to close plexes (which it is for all standing grinding alts) then the life of a rabbit is the only sensible route ..
Rabbits wonÆt be ignored but they will constantly be frustrated if they try to do what they do now. If you want to gain occupancy it will no longer be a good idea to form up a big blob. So you will no longer have blobs *chasing* a rabbit. The side that has pilots spread out throughout the entire FW regions will win the occupancy war.
The best way to win would be to coordinate pilots throughout the entire war area! Having separate squads that can cover say 7 systems each call this a ôsectorö or ôzone.ö These squads might be between 1-20 people. You donÆt need to go chasing anyone if they move into a different squads territory. The squad that is there already capping plexes in the area, can just hop over a jump or two and kick him out. You can stay put capping plexes in your ôsectorö or ôzoneö while the rabbit wastes time running around. The side that spends more time running instead of running timers will not win.
If they run you let them run and continue to cap plexes. LetÆs say the rabbit runs 10 jumps from you and goes into another 20 minute plex. You ignore him. When the intel pops up you can talk on vent and let your militia know that this person is a rabbit. That way your own militia will not need to send too many resources (good pilots) to kick him out. The *local* militia covering that sector can let him waste 15 minutes then make a jump or 2, kick him out and cap his plex.
If he wants to go running several jumps and start another timer that would be fine let him. He is just wasting his own time not the time of people who want to fight. When he gets to new plex the intel will pop up again and someone in your militia can hop over a jump or 2 and kick him out again before he can cap a plex. They can run but they canÆt hide. No one needs to do any ôchasingö and rabbits accomplish nothing.
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.05.03 13:37:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Cearain on 03/05/2011 13:44:44 If people can not fight for themselves in plexes they will not be as useful to the militia. This is because they will constantly need to pull pilots, that could otherwise be running plexes, to their defense. If one militia is bad at pvp and needs 3 people to kick out 2 of the opposing militia (same ship classes) then they will need a larger active militia.
If your side is outnumbered this can of course be a problem. I donÆt think eve should change that. But there are things you can do. You can set up coordinated attacks in different regions. Lets say The other side has a blob of 50 people but you only have 20 up in taff. Well you can try to focus your 20 in frigates and capture minors. Or you can use jump clones or shuttles and get your 20 in BSes to cap majors in a distant system like tzvi.
Yes of course the smaller force will always be at a disadvantage but because there are these different sized plexes with ship restrictions the smaller side û if it is well organized and equipped can still bring a fight to different regions. Allot of how this will play out is how fast can one militia be in the *right sized already fit* ships in a different region capping plexes! The better organized militias although smaller militia will have plexes capped across the universe before the bigger blobbier militia can organize resistance.
Also there can be other things that help smaller militias. LetÆs say caldari have all of their systems occupied and already occupy half of the gallente systems. The mechanics could then start letting gallente have cruisers in minors. That way even if one side is outnumbered there can still be good fights. The storyline idea is that these last systems are true bastions of Gallente loyalists so the gate engineers give secret intel to the gallente side to help them.
I just ask that you think about what I am describing and ask yourself if it wouldnÆt be great. If you agree it would be great but think the op proposals wonÆt bring that about then ask why and what would need to be changed.
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.05.03 15:17:00 -
[82]
In all honesty you underestimate the fortitude of the Alt Rabbits and the will of people looking for fights to chase them down.
Ankhesentapemkah used the +5 standings loophole to run all those plexes and she was never interested in fights. And Damar griefed her constantly, but he was one of the only guys who has ever had the will to grief the rabbits on a consistent basis. Nobody else wanted to waste their valuable game time chasing somebody around who didn't want to fight.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.05.03 19:00:00 -
[83]
X gallentius
Would you agree that rabbits would rather not have their whereabouts broadcast to the opposing militia? If you agree then this change will not encourage being a rabbit, it will discourage that behavior.
We may disagree about *how much* this will discourage the behavior. The only way to really know is to try it. But by creating mechanics that continually discourage that behavior we can get rid of it. The current system so strongly *favors* carebear/rabbit plexing that, of course, that is how itÆs currently done. But this can change and it is really not that hard.
Please though, we have to stop blaming the players for achieving their objectives in a rational way. Eve players will continue to rationally pursue their goals. We need *mechanics* such that when the game is played rationally it brings about allot of small gang pvp. Currently hide and seek alt rabbit plexing is the rational way to win occupancy. If the *mechanics* change so that is no longer the case, people will stop doing it.
But let us back up. Before we talk about mechanics changes I really think we need to have a vision of what we want to happen when we log on in fw. Otherwise we are just making proposals that will just lead us in circles. If we canÆt be clear about what we want a gaming session to be like, we shouldnÆt just be shouting out proposals that ôsound goodö.
My vision is to log on and be immediately told where people are trying to hold plexes so I can go and fight for them. Lose a ship? Get in another and get back in the fight. Keep going at it with whatever you can afford to throw at them.
Hopefully there will be some amount of reward to holding plexes to help defray the cost but for the rest I may need to use the credit card or do some carebearing. Whatever. That is the pain that makes losses hurt, I understand that. The thing is, once I have endured that pain and I have ships placed strategically through out the war zone I want mechanics that bring about the fun! I want quality fights!
I donÆt want to spend so much time grinding missions, so that I can stock up on ships, only to warp around for hours and eventually just lose them to blobs.
I want to log in and if we are severely outnumbered I want to be able to have chances that a certain coordinated attacks can be pulled off by having the right ships at the right places so I can do something for the war effort, other than sit in a stations.
If the other side has 50 in a blob and we have 20. Lets say we get into frigates and go 15 jumps to a new system. They follow in frigates thinking we will do minor plexes there. Surprise we have fully fit cruisers in that system so we can start running medium plexes!! They would then need to have cruisers nearby and hopefully we would be able to knock out some medium plexes before they can reorganize. If they do we can jump in BSes. Etc. If they come then we all jump clone back up to some other system and start running plexes there. Again having coordination and logistical supplies would be a huge part of it.
ôIt is better to be on hand [at the decisive point] with ten men than to be absent with ten thousand.ö Tamerlane
See I want the war to be more dynamic in this way. I want it to involve logistics and strategies and tactics. Not only ôyeah we are waiting for our fc to finish a cigarette so we can get back in blob formation and see what we can fight. We will accomplish nothing other than hopefully find a good fight.ö Again we can still have large fleets and I donÆt mean to put them down. But I think FW can offer something different *as well*. It can offer *fast paced* small gang pvp like eve has never seen!
This is the vision I want to strive for. What do you say? Is it worth trying to get a game where that sort of game play happens? If so, then lets figure out why our current mechanics donÆt lead to it and how we can change them to bring that about.
I donÆt want the only option to be: get in a large fleet. I like large fleets too. But small gang pvp is what ccp has never given any love too. ItÆs time, and fw plexxing is how to do it.
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.05.05 15:56:00 -
[84]
Rabbits alts are rabbit alts. They run plexes and wait for you to enter them before bailing. After a couple days, the notices of plexes opening will fall on deaf ears.
Simpler Proposal: Create a channel available to all militias so they can arrange fights with each other. You can now get your fights on demand. Do "fight club" in Hysera and fight over the plexes.
All the other stuff, we do this all the time. I personally have three (four actually, but one is dormant outside FW area) low sec bases of operations with various ships ready at my disposal. We find plexers/mission runners and run them out - all the time. And I'm not much involved in the Occupancy War anymore. The guys that are involved probably have more bases.
What happens? Over time the guys who are actually plexing get discouraged because the alts do the plexing job better (alts don't get bored orbiting buttons), and then they eventually quit running them. Who wants to be bored for 20 minutes if you're not actually accomplishing anything? And no, nobody is going to chase alts 23/7.
The boring part is the "winning" part where you have to orbit a button for 20 minutes to close the plex or hang around for 11 hours to grief their mission.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.05.06 14:38:00 -
[85]
X Gallentius You seem to assume that no one in eve wants small gang pvp. I agree the fact that ccp has never really tried to develop a mechanism to bring it about, surely lead to many people who did want it leaving the game. But I do think there are still many in game who like it, and likely many who would resub/stay subbed if CCP did it right.
Moreover, eve would keep many of those players who like eve and pvp but arenÆt interested in being bossed around by some mope in null sec, nor do they want to quit their day job to become a null sec alliance leader. Really just think about that middle road player and how neglected we are by ccp.
CCP gives these options: 1) take orders from people who drop out of real life to play video games, 2) drop out of real life to be an alliance leader yourself, 3) Stay in high sec and shoot red xes or 4) this game is not for you.
For the guy who likes the game and wants to blow stuff up without having to commit key parts of their life to socializing with internet buds instead of family, real life friends, and associates û well they simply say this game is not for you.
So again if EVE did something for the middle road player you might see more of them û a lot more of them. More of them means that more fights would constantly happen across the regions and there wouldnÆt be anywhere for the rabbits to run.
Now on to the specific points. Would rabbits prefer the entire enemy militia be informed when they open a plex or not? You say ôrabbit altsö, but it really doesnÆt matter whether they are alts or not. There is still a real person flying the ships and trying to accomplish a goal spending real life time. Now they can cap plexes without anyone even realizing what they are doing. ThatÆs a big reason why rabbits are successful.
You keep equating plexing and running missions. And because of the stupid plex npcs you may have good grounds for doing that. Under current mechanics need to fight npcs and so plex ships are often set up for pve. That means they are of course going to run from a pvp ship. No one wants to get in a pvp fight in a pve ship. But if you remove the npcs from plexes there is no longer a reason to be pve fit. So why not pvp fit your ship?
So you see the rats and the lack of notice *both* create conditions where plexing is best done by rabbits.
I go in plexes but I never try to capture a medium plex. The reason I donÆt is because in general I like buffer tank pvp set ups. If I draw agro from the rats they will eat through 20-40% of my buffer tank. And no I donÆt want to start pvping with other players with a fraction of my hit points. So the solution is easy. Eliminate the rats so people *can* fly pvp ships and cap plexes.
You continue to talk about how people do things with the current mechanics and you simply assume that everyone will stop paying attention to the plex notifications because no one will want pvp. I really doubt that is the case. Lots of people want pvp itÆs just that it takes too long to find it in the current eve mechanics, so people uninstall.
As far as a channel to arrange fights û that has nothing to do with this proposal. You can set up a channel now if you want. RvB does that, if you want that. The original proposal requires no staged/arranged battles between the militias. The original proposal is simply a set of mechanic changes that both militias need to deal with, yet will naturally lead to good small scale pvp fights.
Requiring artificial agreed duels completely loses the feel of being in a real war. What you propose is more ôfaction war sparringö instead of ôfaction war fights.ö Yes sparring is better than warping around for hours with no action at all, but it shouldnÆt be the vision we are striving for.
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.05.06 15:13:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Cearain ...
Please refrain from using the term rabbit in an attempt to further your own agenda..
It means 'those who run, always'. Has nothing to do with plexes not being announced, NPCs being there or anything else you might think to use. Rabbits are a tool used by ISK *****s and 'Win at all costs' people just as a scrambler is a tool for the fighter .. they provide massive and easy amounts of standings and/or VP for the useless system occupancy. Chase them out of one and they'll open another ad nauseum, no combat has ever or will ever come from them.
People WILL ignore any announcement channel in short order because the last ten or twenty times they were foolish enough to respond to it they drew a rabbit .. has nothing to do with people not wanting PvP, they can quite simply find better 'quality' by doing the same old gate/station/post-DT dance as we all do now.
PS: I have not plexed in a PvE fit .. Ever! If you are unable to do it then the fault is with your fit/paradigm, not the rats .. I have gone into plexes and assassinated whomever was there and got out (and had it done to me) enough times to know that NPCs influence combat but are in no way defining it (just be wary of full spawns).
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.05.06 16:10:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Cearain ...
What if I'm right? (Yoshida gets it)
Just adjust your proposal so that I don't have to orbit a button 20 minutes to win if 1) nobody shows up and 2) the rabbit bails.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.05.06 16:15:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Cearain ...
à. PS: I have not plexed in a PvE fit .. Ever! If you are unable to do it then the fault is with your fit/paradigm, not the rats .. I have gone into plexes and assassinated whomever was there and got out (and had it done to me) enough times to know that NPCs influence combat but are in no way defining it (just be wary of full spawns).
The ôfault is with my fit/paradigm not the ratsö? Is this code for: I need to start fitting fit an active repper to my ôpvpö ships like you do? In other words I canÆt fly what I think are the best pvp set ups. I have to gimp them a bit to account for the rats. But then when IÆm fighting the rats in an offensive plex with this gimped ship I realize the enemy who comes in wonÆt get attacked. So he does not need to gimp his ship fit *at all.* Sorry I and most others are not interested in those fights. That is one reason why almost no one does plexes.
You might make up for your subpar fits with numbers. And indeed a repper on certain amarr ships sometimes isnÆt so bad. But others fly other races.
This is a big reason why very few are in fw, and of those very few in fw, almost no one does occupancy plexing.
The fact that you do so much occupancy plexing does not prove that your suggestions are more valid than every other player. It may actually show your perspective is somewhat out of touch. Very few players are interested in what you find enjoyable.
I may be out of touch too. It very well may be that many players do not want allot small gang pvp like IÆm suggesting. I may be the only one. CCP never set up any mechanics that would encourage small gang pvp so we just donÆt know how popular they would be. But I tend to think there are allot of players would like allot of quality small scale pvp.
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Cearain ...
Please refrain from using the term rabbit in an attempt to further your own agenda..
It means 'those who run, always'. Has nothing to do with plexes not being announced, NPCs being there or anything else you might think to use. Rabbits are a tool used by ISK *****s and 'Win at all costs' people just as a scrambler is a tool for the fighter .. they provide massive and easy amounts of standings and/or VP for the useless system occupancy.
Rabbits do not achieve their goals of standings, isk or wins if they do not finish the plex. So giving the other side a tool that can help them easily prevent enemy rabbits from finishing a plex will deter that conduct.
Right now the only way to prevent rabbits from achieving their goals is to waste time chasing them around through several jumps. A notification system completely eliminates the need to chase anyone.
Again you are arguing against common sense. Just because common sense is not always common, doesnÆt mean itÆs not sensible.
I already addressed your claim about how rats force people to fly pve fits or at best suboptimal pvp fits. Moreover players just donÆt like starting pvp when they are already under fire from rats. You and ccp can disagree all you want but youÆre just refusing to open your eyes. This really isnÆt controversial.
IÆm not sure what you love so much about shooting red crosses that you always take such offense at eliminating them from plexxes. But after several months of shooting red xÆs most players grow bored of it. Deny it all you want itÆs still true.
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.05.06 16:33:00 -
[89]
Originally by: X Gallentius
Originally by: Cearain ...
What if I'm right? (Yoshida gets it)
Just adjust your proposal so that I don't have to orbit a button 20 minutes to win if 1) nobody shows up and 2) the rabbit bails.
If you are right we will have the status quo - virtually no one caring about fw plexes.
I'm fine with adjusting the proposal if I know what you mean and it makes sense. But I'm not sure what you are suggesting.
LetÆs discuss what should happen a pvper (hereinafter referred to as ôpvperö) chases a rabbit ( hereinafter referred to as ôrabbitö) out of a 20 minute plex. The options would seem to be:
1)The pvper would have to run the entire 20 minute timer to win the plex 2)The pvper would have to run the timer for whatever amount of time the rabbit ran it to win the plex 3)The pvper would have to run the timer for some other set amount of time.
It would seem that option 2 would be the best for defeating rabbits. Lets say a rabbit enters a 20 minute plex and then gets chased out after 2 minutes. Well then he really helped the other side by allowing them to win a 20 minute plex in 2 minutes.
But there may be problems with that (read alt in opposing militia exploit.) So it would seem option 1 or option 3 would be better.
IÆm really am not sure what would be optimal. I am entirely open to suggestions. But this is really something that is beside the point of original proposals in this thread. IÆm happy to add other suggestions to the op if we think them through though. I would encourage people to post any ideas that would deter hide and seek plexing/ rabbits and would lead to more small scale quality pvp.
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.05.06 17:01:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Cearain The fact that you do so much..
I stopped plexing in earnest ages ago when I went full pew. Even with exploration probing and forum whoring while orbiting it gets tedious eventually
Originally by: Cearain A notification system completely eliminates the need to chase anyone.
You still need to run there and chase them out. Do you think that they will run on their own just because someone knows where they are? You get to see them run a few minutes earlier than now, but the outcome will not change and neither will their behaviour/viability .. the only way to achieve what you seem to want is to make plexes so rare as to be redundant in the first place
Originally by: Cearain I already addressed your claim about how rats force people to fly pve fits or at best suboptimal pvp fits.
Sub-optimal for 'normal' PvP for sure, just as a sniper fit is a pretty bad idea for jumping into an enemy. The "one fit to rule them all" does not exist, contrary to what FoTM junkies may tell you. Different circumstances requires different fits and tactics, you should know that.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.05.06 23:12:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida You still need to run there and chase them out. Do you think that they will run on their own just because someone knows where they are?
Consider how it will work. LetÆs say I have 6 minutes left on a plex I am running. Then I see in a system one jump away an enemy plexer starts a 15 minute plex. I wait out my plex and then jump over one system. If he is a rabbit he will run and I will win his plex. He just wasted 6 minutes. All of my time so far has been toward doing plexes.
Lets say I see that about 15 minutes later he opens another plex. If he opens it 2 or three jumps away I may finish the plex IÆm running and kick him out again.
Now if he opened it 15 jumps away I will not go chasing after him. If no one in my militia near him is willing to go fight for the plex, we will lose the plex.
But I think the chances are pretty good that there may be someone from my militia who can finish up what they are doing (maybe a plex) and within say 1-3 jumps chase the rabbit out of *that* plex too. See the rabbit will then have wasted allot of time whereas we will be spending our time optimally to win plexes.
Really with only about 8 active plexers you can have the entire fw front covered. Rabbits would not be able to plex without having an opposing militia being able to get to them in 3 or fewer jumps. This is why rabbits would not work in this system.
As far as pve versus pvp fits yes I agree that you need to fit your ship for what you are doing. Popular fits include: 1)sniper fits 2) kiter fits 3) pure in close gank and tank fits etc. each fit has its own strategy.
One unpopular fit is: the fit that is intended to have a pvp fight while you are getting pounded by unknown amounts of rat dps and ewar. It just isnÆt catching on no matter how often ccp tries to tell us pvp and pve would be a fun mix. ItÆs not a fun mix. In fact I would even go so far as to say, it sucks.
It may be fun ôsome dayö but for right now very very very few players have any interest in that fit or strategy. So for right now I think they should accept that reality and make game mechanics based on the reality of what players like. Later after they make the game fun for how the current players like to play the game they can then start trying to make pve and pvp mix together in some alternative mechanic. But the misguided view, that pve and pvp mix well, has plagued fw plexing for long enough. It has resulted in the majority of people fitting for pve and running from pvp.
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.07.20 23:20:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Arkady Sadik The absolutely best fights you can have are the ones where you survive with a fraction of structure. That's the ones where you have sweaty hands, heart racing, adrenaline all over.
And exactly those are the fights that are made impossible by the presence of the NPCs. Even if the damage is only minuscle (and it isn't unless you are really moving a lot, which you won't be when webbed, etc.), it's what breaks the fight. No NPCs, please.
(Though it's already now annoying how many people plex, both offensively and defensively, primarily with rokies alts... Might want a minimum ship restriction for plexes, too :-))
Thanks for the comments. I don't think we need a restriction on the numbers of ships. It would be great to have 30 v 30 frigate fight in a minor. If it does become an issue they can restrict it. -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Sun Zue
Short Bus Pole Dancers
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Posted - 2011.08.11 17:41:00 -
[93]
Bump, because FW needs some love after being forgotten about.
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Ciar Meara
Virtus Vindice
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Posted - 2011.08.31 13:49:00 -
[94]
Anything that advances thought on better FW is good. - Hilmar getur ekki tala= vi= ¦ig n·na, hann er a= fara f japanska tfskuverslun.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.09.05 15:11:00 -
[95]
Thanks for the support. I anticipate that CCP will start working on FW after the new year. Hopefully they will do this and give solo and small gang pvp a long overdue boost. -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
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