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Zarnak Wulf
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Posted - 2010.06.02 02:58:00 -
[1]
The first three are absolutely worthless. The last slightly less so. Some take two or even three fitting mods to cram basic modules onto their frames. They range in size from 75m to 95m. None of those sizes do anything but get the ships killed. They have less EHP then Assault frigates and only slightly more then tier 3 frigates like the rifter or merlin.
Their existence inhibits the un-nerfing of assault frigates since both ship types compete for the same niche. They can't run in fleets or do much more then skirmish, solo warfare. Again, only the thrasher is seen on a regular basis in this role.
So why have them? Redub them "salvagers", give them appropriate bonuses, and use their hulls for their much more popular t2 variants. This would in turn allow the assault frigates a better reason to get their missing frigate bonuses. The wolf and jaguar with a tracking bonus, for example, could both run in groups and accomplish most of what a thrasher did.
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Caleidascope
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2010.06.02 03:00:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Zarnak Wulf Some take two or even three fitting mods to cram basic modules onto their frames.
You are doing it wrong.

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Vladimiru
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Posted - 2010.06.02 03:03:00 -
[3]
Offer your thoughts here bro, I currently have two active topics on this :)
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1317687&page=1
or
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1327231&page=1
Although none of the destroyers are completely worthless. The Catalyst is a crazy suicide gank ship, fit 8 ion blasters (meta 1), 3 mag stabs (meta 1) and just a tiny bit of faction ammo + a tier I drone, get a couple of friends with the same ship (they cost less than one million to buy and fit with meta 1) and go kill and loot a Hulk!
You can kill frigates easily with this sniping Corm build from over 100km
http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/39158-Sniping-Cormorant-year-2010.html
The Coercer will quite literally alpha blast drones with 8 dual pulse lasers.
Still they all need help.
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Zarnak Wulf
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Posted - 2010.06.02 03:23:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Caleidascope
Originally by: Zarnak Wulf Some take two or even three fitting mods to cram basic modules onto their frames.
You are doing it wrong.

When a ship class has one race that is marginal it really can't be said that there's a right way to it. 
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Matthew Savarito
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Posted - 2010.06.02 06:40:00 -
[5]
what except there salvaging boats/highsec hulk ganking ships
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards Circle-Of-Two
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Posted - 2010.06.02 07:45:00 -
[6]
I have a T2 AC thasher prototype I have been trying that amazed me by instapopping light drones attacking me. Very fun to fly the little thing
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Natalie Caladan
Royal Amarr Institute
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Posted - 2010.06.02 07:54:00 -
[7]
Yes I do agree those ships need a buff, it's a bit of a waste of a few very nice looking hulls (for EVE standards) although I also use them for salvaging and small transports (Coercer with its 4 low slots can carry over 1100m3). Same for the rookie ships btw - why not make t2 versions of those?
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Caleidascope
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2010.06.02 07:57:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Natalie Caladan those ships need a buff, it's a bit of a waste of a few very nice Same for the rookie ships btw - why not make t2 versions of those?
No and no.
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Proxyyyy
Caldari The Tuskers The Tusker Bastards
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Posted - 2010.06.02 10:28:00 -
[9]
Destroyers are awesome solo in my opinion and thats about it. I guess theyre still good for missions/salavaging too? Its always cheaper to fly a destroyer over a assault frigate, with about the same gank-tank ratio. Only thing that realy sucks is the big sig.
Rank - 1) Thrasher 2) Cormorant 3) Coecer 4) Catalyst
-Intresting stuffz
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Proxyyyy
Caldari The Tuskers The Tusker Bastards
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Posted - 2010.06.02 10:49:00 -
[10]
The t2 destroyer hulls are intresting. I can fly them all (Bar Eris) but havent tried yet. All of them seem good, but dont have much over theyre t1 counterparts. Each of these ships can do atleast 200/dps (atleast with my fits) and have over 8k ehp. They seem pretty underwhelming and not worth using for anything other than theyre role (Although i will solo in them all). These ships must die hella easy in large blobs no? They seem a better option in smaller fleets...
Ill tell ya one thing (Zee bubble graphicz lookz hella koolz)!
[Flycatcher, Flycatcher] Damage Control II
Medium Shield Extender II Small Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 25 Coreli C-Type 1MN MicroWarpdrive Small Shield Booster II Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thorn Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thorn Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thorn Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thorn Rocket 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S Interdiction Sphere Launcher I, Warp Disrupt Probe
Small Projectile Burst Aerator II Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
[Sabre, Sabre] Gyrostabilizer II Internal Force Field Array I
Medium Shield Extender II Medium Shield Extender II Coreli C-Type 1MN MicroWarpdrive Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S Interdiction Sphere Launcher I, Warp Disrupt Probe
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II Small Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II
[Heretic, Heretic] Gyrostabilizer II Co-Processor II Damage Control II
Medium Shield Extender II Coreli C-Type 1MN MicroWarpdrive Stasis Webifier II
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Gremlin Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Gremlin Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Gremlin Rocket 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S Interdiction Sphere Launcher I, Warp Disrupt Probe
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II Small Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II
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Florio
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.06.02 11:09:00 -
[11]
The thrasher is pretty good, the others are very limited. For instance, sniping cormorant is okey in an engagement against t1 frigates, with its sub-par dps still getting it on top of killmails due to being able to apply damage instantly to primary target. And coercer does omgwtf damage within 30km - good for small mobile cheap gank gangs.
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Number 17
Caldari COLD-Wing
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Posted - 2010.06.02 12:16:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Proxyyyy Destroyers are awesome solo in my opinion and thats about it... Its always cheaper to fly a destroyer over a assault frigate, with about the same gank-tank ratio.
Rank - 1) Thrasher 2) Cormorant 3) Coecer 4) Catalyst
100% on this.
Originally by: Proxyyyy Only thing that realy sucks is the big sig.
The big sig is intended so you can only engage destroyer or frigate, where a cruiser and up will 2 volley you, rendering your 250dps useless.
But yea, 703m sig radius with MWD on is a bit too much.
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Number 17
Caldari COLD-Wing
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Posted - 2010.06.02 12:23:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Proxyyyy The t2 destroyer hulls are intresting.
Except for the bubble, you will find there is very little difference from their T1 versions, in fact i prefer a cormo for solo than the flycatcher.
Bar sabre of course, there is a reason this ship costs 42 million ISK when every other interdictor is around 20 mill.
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Cosmic Rainbow
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Posted - 2010.06.02 14:22:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Cosmic Rainbow on 02/06/2010 14:23:40 IMO there is a significant, known problem with the entire destroyer line. About the only thing they can destroy is well....themselves.
Combine that with the non-defined role of the AF, and it just leaves you scratching your head. I understand there is a rumour/post/some information regarding Tech 3 frigates?? Oh boy CCP. Clean up your backyard first before you go making a mess somewhere else.
Dont even get me started on the current issues I see with the dictor. There was some change to either spawn range when jumping through a gate, or a reduction in the size of the dictor bubble. Couple that with the increased size of low sec/null sec transition gates and it makes the dictor all but useless in controlling access points to null sec space. Clearly CCP wants to discourage such control of gates. I dont even use mine anymore tbh. Nor do I use the HIC much either.
It seems to me there is a lot whining lately regarding AFK cloaked campers. Destroyers in the navy are often used to root out submarines, at least they were in WWII. Perhaps there is a role there for destroyers, some increased ability to locate cloakers with charges? Pretty half baked idea at the moment, but perhaps there is something there. I'll let someone else work out the details. Overall serious work needs to be done on the Destroyer and AF lines to make them some what useful.
Edit: My own personal plug - FIX COMMAND SHIPS ALREADY!!!! Either nerf Tier 3 BC's or up the strength of CS's!
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Milo Caman
Gallente Anshar Incorporated
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Posted - 2010.06.02 15:15:00 -
[15]
The Thrasher is a disgusting ****-mobile if flown right. very handy for one-shotting inties and surprising AFs.
The Others are less-than-great, but not nearly as bad as you make out. Coercer is excellent if you have someone to tackle for you, and the Cat/Corm are nice rail support platforms. ---
Originally by: Sarina Berghil I think the reason your guns didn't work is because you're trying to hunt squirrels with Howitzers.
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Cyan Cure
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Posted - 2010.06.02 16:32:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Cyan Cure on 02/06/2010 16:34:21
Quote: [Cormorant, New Setup 1] Micro Auxiliary Power Core I
Phased Monopropellant I Hydrazine Boosters Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters Medium Shield Extender II J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
Light Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thorn Rocket
Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I Small Core Defence Field Extender I Small Core Defence Field Extender I
Cormorants are pretty good, cause you can put dual propulsion on them and a MSE. It'll let you get decent tank and still stay under the tracking of Cruisers, in most cases, even with your quite large signature radius, you won't do this on other Destroyers.
As for other hulls, i'm not so affectionate. Catalyst is good for ganking, Thrasher is an alaround good anti-frigate ship, but it won't tackle a Cruiser or a BC. Coercers i've never used, but they seem fine in PvE.
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Zarnak Wulf
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Posted - 2010.06.03 01:20:00 -
[17]
- Give all destroyers the same signature radius - the same way all BC have 240m as a signature radius. I propose 60m.
- Keep the DPS the same but remove the ROF penalty. This would entail taking turrets off the ship.
- Add the subtracted high slots back as mid or low slots.
- Lose the optimal range bonus.
- Seriously buff the destroyers. AF's can get around 10k EHP. A destroyer should max out at around 15k EHP.
- Add an AB bonus as the destroyer role bonus.
These changes would give flavor and set destroyers apart in the small ship category. They would also allow more specific changes to be allowed to the assault frigate class. Many posts above are "for solo frigate work..." That's crap and most frigates rune from the thrasher anyways.
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Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
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Posted - 2010.06.03 01:33:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Zarnak Wulf
- Lose the optimal range bonus.
- Add an AB bonus as the destroyer role bonus.
Leave the optimal bonus alone, and AB bonus, fuuuuu. MWD cap consumption bonus would be nice...  Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint |

Zarnak Wulf
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Posted - 2010.06.03 01:39:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Zarnak Wulf
- Lose the optimal range bonus.
- Add an AB bonus as the destroyer role bonus.
Leave the optimal bonus alone, and AB bonus, fuuuuu. MWD cap consumption bonus would be nice... 
That would be like the hurricane getting an optimal bonus. Who would fly the Muninn? O wait, I probably shouldn't ask you that. And I was aiming for a bonus role. BC do get to fit command modules after all.
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Caleidascope
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2010.06.03 01:39:00 -
[20]
Thrasher owns L1 missions in matari space. Very nice ship for that.
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Ekrid
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Posted - 2010.06.03 08:55:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Ekrid on 03/06/2010 09:05:34
Originally by: Number 17
Originally by: Proxyyyy Destroyers are awesome solo in my opinion and thats about it... Its always cheaper to fly a destroyer over a assault frigate, with about the same gank-tank ratio.
Rank - 1) Thrasher 2) Cormorant 3) Coecer 4) Catalyst
100% on this.
Originally by: Proxyyyy Only thing that realy sucks is the big sig.
The big sig is intended so you can only engage destroyer or frigate, where a cruiser and up will 2 volley you, rendering your 250dps useless.
But yea, 703m sig radius with MWD on is a bit too much.
which makes them useless in fleet warfare where they would be the option to get rid of drones and enemy frigs.
destroyers are meant to protect the largeer ships from the smaller ships that the larger ships cant handle properly, just like real life. Yet they are the worst idea. Their HP cant handle hits from guns that matter to them, they have no damage bonuses but a damage nerf via -25% rate of fire (stealth bonus to cap use for everyone but the thrasher), their range bonus puts them at exactly the right spot to get excellent hit upon by cruisers, and they don't have many slots nor good fitting capability.
Also, destroyers are supposed to be FAST for their size, not inty or even T1 tackler fast, but probably slightly faster than the tier 3-4 missile boat or gunship of the frigate size.
their sig could use a -5% buff, and they could use a 2% AB speed buff per level of destroyer skill, and one extra mid or low, depending on which is deficient for them. The fitting requirements will still keep the same and thus keep them from making imba setups, because there's many ways to fit something, max out the fitting, max out the slots used, or both, or max fitting and use rigs to help max slots used, etc etc etc.
btw, the cheap rigs on the market are great for dessies. they use small rigs still, so armor rigs go further for them than for frigs, and they can still take a rather surprising amount of damage if hardened or EANM + rep.
The only other thing is that EWAR should be used more often in fleet battles, with the elec attack ships putting points on multiple targets, such as weapon disrupt, Sensor damp, ECM, etc. all these would greatly increase the lifespan of smaller ships. but this takes coordination and someone smart telling people what to bring to do this, people divided into squads so their squad leader can tell them what to do, and listen to the wing leader above them and get their squad to do what the wing leader wants, etc etc.
even frigs can be hit by cruiser guns. we need the -5% buff to all destroyer sigs to help mitigate more damage.. They pop way too fast against players. Against rat cruisers, sure, but those dont have mods to boost hitting, implants, and intelligent piloting.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.06.03 09:24:00 -
[22]
Problem with destroyers, is that they have the speed and signature of a cruiser, but the hitpoints of a frigate. Otherwise, they're quite good.
Drop the signature down on them to nearer frigate sized - and leave them slower than frigates - and they'd be about right I think.
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Number 17
Caldari COLD-Wing
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Posted - 2010.06.03 09:31:00 -
[23]
TL;DR
Originally by: Ekrid
which makes them useless in fleet warfare where they would be the option to get rid of drones and enemy frigs.
Many ships are useless in fleet warfare, and great for small gangs, skirmish warfare. I think many would agree that destroyers are more of a solo / small warfare ship.
If you are asking for buffs, you clearly havent flown them on the right situation. In a dessie you can take 2 to 3 t1 frigs at a time, and even kill t2 frigs with no help, for a fraction of the cost. That is the role, and it excels at it. WTF are you guys talking about? fitting? they can fit 400mm plates or medium shield extender plus full rack of guns, plus mwd. full t2 fit and still have some cpu/grid to play around. gank? they put out up to 250 dps while still being able to fit 8k+ ehp buffer.
get real. What you want is a frigate size sig radius with cruiser dps. It aint gonna happen.
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Zarnak Wulf
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Posted - 2010.06.03 14:17:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Number 17 TL;DR
Originally by: Ekrid
which makes them useless in fleet warfare where they would be the option to get rid of drones and enemy frigs.
Many ships are useless in fleet warfare, and great for small gangs, skirmish warfare. I think many would agree that destroyers are more of a solo / small warfare ship.
If you are asking for buffs, you clearly havent flown them on the right situation. In a dessie you can take 2 to 3 t1 frigs at a time, and even kill t2 frigs with no help, for a fraction of the cost. That is the role, and it excels at it. WTF are you guys talking about? fitting? they can fit 400mm plates or medium shield extender plus full rack of guns, plus mwd. full t2 fit and still have some cpu/grid to play around. gank? they put out up to 250 dps while still being able to fit 8k+ ehp buffer.
get real. What you want is a frigate size sig radius with cruiser dps. It aint gonna happen.
Tell you what. Let's give BC the same or less EHP as HACs. Let's then pick a ship bonus at random from the HACs and toss it and give the BC some random penalty as well. When people complain we'll make stupid comments like:
BC can't have BS level DPS and a cruiser sig! BC and HACs have to have separate niches! Look at the firepower though! They're great solo!
That is how cluttered and confused the small ship category is though! It is absolutely ******ed. It's been brought up at CSM how ******ed is is. And the silence on it as well as AF, rockets, ect. is deafening.
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Lady Ayeipsia
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Posted - 2010.06.03 15:21:00 -
[25]
You all seem to be missing one very valuable role for the destroyer...
It is the perfect first Noob upgrade from Frigate. Yes, the AFs are on par, but what new player will have Racial Frigate to 5, plus Engineering and Mechanic level to 5? Destroyers form a very cost-effective stepping stone for newer players to travel from frigates to cruisers.
Plus, once you reach cruiser, you turn your destroyer into a salvage boat. Come on, who here didn't do this? I know a lot of people I started with followed this path.
Now I'm not saying the Destroyer is perfect, and I'm not saying it could not be improved. All I'm saying is, you all seem to focus on the end use of the destroyer only. You don't remember the steps you had to take to reach the end path and how for many, the destroyer helped along the way.
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Russel Williams
Minmatar Red Federation
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Posted - 2010.06.03 19:32:00 -
[26]
I agree, the Thrasher is trash. Give it some buffz pl0x 
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Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
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Posted - 2010.06.03 21:13:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 03/06/2010 21:16:23
Originally by: Zarnak Wulf
That is how cluttered and confused the small ship category is though! It is absolutely ******ed. It's been brought up at CSM how ******ed is is. And the silence on it as well as AF, rockets, ect. is deafening.
Well, truth be told the small ship category is a bit overpopulated; I think EAFs were honestly a bad idea (b/c it's really bloody difficult to make a frigate-sized recon which is neither lol overpowered or trash), and the two shipclasses which are lacking are really destroyers (which have some semblance of a role when it comes to anti-frig work solo but ehhhh) and AFs.
If you look at good small ship classes, you find: - T1 frigates, in particular Rifter which is more T1.5 (new player ships, throwaway tackler, nice solo pirate ship, etc, I pirated in one until I could afford flying BCs and stuff) - Interceptors (tackle and a mix of tackle/antifrig/combat) - Stealth bombers (awesome, but fragility prevents them from being OP) - Covert ops (no explanation needed)
Which really leaves you with two deficient classes: - Destroyers (which are sort of anti-frig ships except they don't work in gangs well and their only role is soloing with a Thrasher) - AFs (they're slower then interceptors or T1 frigates, and in general infringe upon the role of T1 frigates, of combat interceptors, of destroyers, etc, and their only unique thing is that they work better for closerange tackle or frigsize damage dealing)
So, your idea is to basically turn the destroyers into a cruiser light kind of thing with AF-level EHP, frig guns, sensible slot layouts + fitting and smaller sig. That'd actually work quite well.
Which leaves the AFs to find a role which is not something OP but viable/useful.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint |

baltec1
Antares Shipyards Circle-Of-Two
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Posted - 2010.06.03 21:37:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Which leaves the AFs to find a role which is not something OP but viable/useful.
Each of my assault frigs have a roll already.
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Zarnak Wulf
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Posted - 2010.06.03 22:52:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Which really leaves you with two deficient classes: - Destroyers (which are sort of anti-frig ships except they don't work in gangs well and their only role is soloing with a Thrasher) - AFs (they're slower then interceptors or T1 frigates, and in general infringe upon the role of T1 frigates, of combat interceptors, of destroyers, etc, and their only unique thing is that they work better for closerange tackle or frigsize damage dealing)
So, your idea is to basically turn the destroyers into a cruiser light kind of thing with AF-level EHP, frig guns, sensible slot layouts + fitting and smaller sig. That'd actually work quite well.
Which leaves the AFs to find a role which is not something OP but viable/useful.
I think we agree on most things. I'd want to keep the destroyers to have a bit more EHP then an AF. The AF would be faster and more agile but couldn't go toe to toe w/ destroyers. I also feel that an AB bonus - similar to what was discussed on AF a while ago- would allow them to take advantage of a signature radius that while smaller, is still large enough for cruisers to hit. This again would differentiate destroyers from frigates - even AF.
AF will be okay. With destroyers tucked away you can give the wolf and jag their missing tracking bonus. You can buff the faction frigates other then the dramiel. Ect. ect.
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Ekrid
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Posted - 2010.06.04 06:27:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Ekrid on 04/06/2010 06:35:20 Edited by: Ekrid on 04/06/2010 06:33:21
Originally by: James Lyrus Problem with destroyers, is that they have the speed and signature of a cruiser, but the hitpoints of a frigate. Otherwise, they're quite good.
Drop the signature down on them to nearer frigate sized - and leave them slower than frigates - and they'd be about right I think.
the definitely need to be at least 1.5x the average sig radius of frigs, they shouldn't be any smaller, and they should have an AB bonus to encourage that fitting, which lessens their dps but both increases their chance to be missed by bigger guns through the speed increase and makes them able to catch frigs, albeit more slowly than a MWD, which is what they are supposed to do, catch frigs and squash them.
Originally by: Lady Ayeipsia You all seem to be missing one very valuable role for the destroyer...
It is the perfect first Noob upgrade from Frigate. Yes, the AFs are on par, but what new player will have Racial Frigate to 5, plus Engineering and Mechanic level to 5? Destroyers form a very cost-effective stepping stone for newer players to travel from frigates to cruisers.
One of the more ******ed answers Ive seen today.
Yes, it is a good stepping stone for newbies and should stay that way, but that is NOT what it was built for. It was built for a frig killing platform in warfare. read its flavor text. read the flavor text of the executioner ship. Things are built with an idea in mind to how they work in the game at all levels, and the most important levels.
Destroyers were NOT put in as some stepping stone for newbies and then to forget it even exists.
If anything, you say its a stepping stone for newbies, well then put some skill that only unlocks at destroyer L5 which gives +10% speed and -5% sig radius (dunno why or how you could flavor that particular bonus out logically, but this is just an example) and then you have a reason to specialize in destroyers to get full benefit out of them which makes them more sustainable in a fight so they can at least do their job popping two or three ships (which added together will STILL all be cheaper than a dead dessie) before being insta popped by the first cruiser or wave of light/medium drones (or both) to get in range.
or why not put some advanced skills into the game for Frigates and destroyers that can only be added after destroyer or frig reaches L5, which reduces its sig radius, say by some electronics skill that reduces the footprint of the ship by making your ship's electronics work cooler, quieter, etc. This bonus does extend to T2 versions of ships as well, so they aren't out of the loop by some arbitrary addition.
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