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Why is Hyperion so cool, but still so worthless?

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Angie McFish	Posted - 2010.05.22 08:57:00 - [1] Can someone tell me why the hyperion has armor rep bonus? If you'd ever want to fit reppers and a mwd, there's no way in hell you'll make the setup efficient. And if you don't fit a microwarpdrive to the hyp, there's no way you'll ever get close to the enemy. Well, the only good fit I could come up with was a buffer tank hyp, thus rendering the armor rep bonus useless. I also came up with a decent pve fit, with some good repping, but then rendering the blaster boat part useless because you wouldn't be fast enough to catch up with the enemies to blast them, rendering all weapons useless.
Headerman	Posted - 2010.05.22 09:14:00 - [2] Could someone please also explain why water is wet?
Billy Stevens Caldari Dark Legion Society	Posted - 2010.05.22 09:15:00 - [3] You dont always have to follow the bonus a ship gives out. Curse gives bonus to Tracking Disruptors but so far since being able to fly it, i have never even fitted a tracking disruptor on it. Admittedly I havent flown it much though :/ A better example of ignoring bonuses is prolly the ferox, I fly it with autocanons and it gives a range bonus to hybrids, not that i fly it much though either xP
Ninetails o'Cat League of Super Evil	Posted - 2010.05.22 09:19:00 - [4] How to fix the Hype: 1. Swap the armour rep bonus for a hybrid ROF bonus 2. Move a highslot to a midslot
Angie McFish	Posted - 2010.05.22 09:19:00 - [5] Yea well, if you use your bonuses you'll be using your ship more efficiently. I admit that not all bonuses are good ones, but in this case, both the armor rep and damage are bonuses. Too bad only one of them applies to a good blaster boat. Had the bonus been something along the abaddon's lines it would have been much better for blasting. Also, water is wet because it's a liquid? You mean Hyperion sucks because it's a hyperion? Enlighten me please.
Lord Yusheng	Posted - 2010.05.22 09:31:00 - [6] Originally by: Headerman Could someone please also explain why water is wet? New scientific information suggests that water doesn't behave as a liquid until after there are more than six molecules. For everyday purposes, there is much more than that, so until the exact relationship of the water to itself and to other substances can be proven by scientific means, then either answer to the question, why is water wet, whether it is or is not, is entirely philisophical and as long as there is evidence to support either theory, or rather no evidence to disprove either of them, then either answer is correct based on your own individual opinion and evaluation of the evidence that is at this time present in the scientific community. So, by the definition of wet, which is the condition of being covered or soaked in liquid, then water isn't wet, it just makes other things wet.
Angie McFish	Posted - 2010.05.22 09:50:00 - [7] Originally by: Ninetails o'Cat How to fix the Hype: 1. Swap the armour rep bonus for a hybrid ROF bonus 2. Move a highslot to a midslot I could go with that, still, I wouldn't want to lose a highslot. Maybe change the bonus, and give the Hyperion the extra 25 dronebay and b/w that the mega has. It's price difference is actually 50 mil, as of now, I can't understand why that would be.
Ninetails o'Cat League of Super Evil	Posted - 2010.05.22 10:19:00 - [8] Originally by: Angie McFish Originally by: Ninetails o'Cat How to fix the Hype: 1. Swap the armour rep bonus for a hybrid ROF bonus 2. Move a highslot to a midslot I could go with that, still, I wouldn't want to lose a highslot. Maybe change the bonus, and give the Hyperion the extra 25 dronebay and b/w that the mega has. It's price difference is actually 50 mil, as of now, I can't understand why that would be. [Hyperion - PWNAGE, PWNAGE] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Damage Control II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II 100MN MicroWarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II Stasis Webifier II Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Large Core Defence Field Extender I Large Core Defence Field Extender I Large Core Defence Field Extender I Ogre II x3 Hammerhead II x2 I'm getting 1634 DPS in EFT for this, along with 82K EHP. I think the extra mid is a very good swap for the high, and I think it's good to have two different battleships for Gallente, so the drone bandwidth can stay as it is. I wouldn't say no to having 25m3 of extra drone bay though...
Kaian Voskhod	Posted - 2010.05.22 10:36:00 - [9] Edited by: Kaian Voskhod on 22/05/2010 10:35:57 The hype suffer 2 diseases: - Hybrid are subpar - Active armor tanking is useless So, the hype is not the only ship suffering of this. We also have the: - Kronos - Brutix - Astarte - EOS - ...
Jacob Holland Gallente Weyland-Vulcan Industries	Posted - 2010.05.22 10:43:00 - [10] The Tier 3 BS suffered in design from a lack of role. For the Caldari there was a clear need for a hybrid armed ship because so many complained that they had to retrain Gallente in order to build their fleet snipers (although the Raven can be very effective in that role if the FC makes proper use of them). For the rest though the Apoc, Mega and 'pest provided viable Fleet snipe BS and so finding a way to make the tier 3s different enough from the tier 2s was the issue... especially as CCP had published a thematic design brief, each race was getting an 8 gun fleet ship. With the Mael they succeeded, we got a ship which could fit 1400s relatively easily and (originally) could work a brilliant combination of autos and capital shield booster. The Abaddon and the Hyp failed though. There simply wasn't enough difference between the Amarr line-up to distinguish them, the 'geddon did the damage and the Apoc had the cap... The Abaddon just capped itself out efficiently. The later change to the Apoc gave the three ships distinctive roles and the Amarr line-up is now pretty well rounded. The Hyperion however played against the Megathron, arguably the best Fleet sniper at the time and a gorgeous blaster boat in one of several different configurations... Making the Hyp better than the Mega was going to be very tricky. In much the same way as the Abaddon the Hype failed to be different enough to give it a role over the much cheaper Mega, worse yet because the Abaddon had a passive tanking bonus the Hyp had to be fit in a manner which didn't fit with the shape of combat at the time to take advantage of its bonuses and the speed nerf, which might have given the Hyp's extra mid real strength, castrated it again with the nerf to tracking. Making the Hyp work is less about tweaking stats or adjusting slots and more about giving it a distinctive role over the Mega and Domi, and to my mind that means a total rethink. Move two highs to mids, give it range and effect bonusses to damps and make Signal Distortion Amps work with Damps in the same way with Damps as they do with ECM. The dampener ships need a rework but making it into an EWar ship would at least give it a role. -- Originally by: cordy Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.

Suboran Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.05.22 11:16:00 - [11] megathron will always be superior because it has a tracking bonus
Ninetails o'Cat League of Super Evil	Posted - 2010.05.22 11:47:00 - [12] Originally by: Jacob Holland The Tier 3 BS suffered in design from a lack of role. For the Caldari there was a clear need for a hybrid armed ship because so many complained that they had to retrain Gallente in order to build their fleet snipers (although the Raven can be very effective in that role if the FC makes proper use of them). For the rest though the Apoc, Mega and 'pest provided viable Fleet snipe BS and so finding a way to make the tier 3s different enough from the tier 2s was the issue... especially as CCP had published a thematic design brief, each race was getting an 8 gun fleet ship. With the Mael they succeeded, we got a ship which could fit 1400s relatively easily and (originally) could work a brilliant combination of autos and capital shield booster. The Abaddon and the Hyp failed though. There simply wasn't enough difference between the Amarr line-up to distinguish them, the 'geddon did the damage and the Apoc had the cap... The Abaddon just capped itself out efficiently. The later change to the Apoc gave the three ships distinctive roles and the Amarr line-up is now pretty well rounded. The Hyperion however played against the Megathron, arguably the best Fleet sniper at the time and a gorgeous blaster boat in one of several different configurations... Making the Hyp better than the Mega was going to be very tricky. In much the same way as the Abaddon the Hype failed to be different enough to give it a role over the much cheaper Mega, worse yet because the Abaddon had a passive tanking bonus the Hyp had to be fit in a manner which didn't fit with the shape of combat at the time to take advantage of its bonuses and the speed nerf, which might have given the Hyp's extra mid real strength, castrated it again with the nerf to tracking. Making the Hyp work is less about tweaking stats or adjusting slots and more about giving it a distinctive role over the Mega and Domi, and to my mind that means a total rethink. Move two highs to mids, give it range and effect bonusses to damps and make Signal Distortion Amps work with Damps in the same way with Damps as they do with ECM. The dampener ships need a rework but making it into an EWar ship would at least give it a role. I think the main problem with the Hype is blasters TBH. If blasters DPS advantage was great enough over laser and AC ships, then it could have a role, especially if they dropped the repair amount bonus for something interesting... However, since at the moment blasters aren't in a state where they have a credible DPS advantage over ACs or lasers, and as a result of the web nerf have had an effective reduction in their tracking by 75% (seriously, a ship going at 100m/s before the web changes would be slowed to 10m/s, now it's 40m/s, which affects blasters most of all short range weapons because they can't get the range to compensate), the ship that will get the most use out of blasters is the Megathron with a tracking boost. The 12.5 current turret DPS advantage of the Hype is also outweighed by the extra heavy drone the Mega can field, meaning that it has not got a single usable advantage over the mega OUTSIDE OF BS 1V1s, which is probably the least practical situation you will ever run into. In my opinion, the way to fix the Hype, it to give it a boost to total DPS, and also making it more able to place that DPS on a target. My fix would give it a massive DPS boost, whilst also allowing it to fit a shield tank, keeping it mobile, and it's shorter targeting range, lack of a tracking boost and inability to fit a RR would keep the Mega the better choice for fleet actions. Just my 0.02ISK.
Darnok Iksnibiks Gallente Star Frontiers	Posted - 2010.05.22 11:53:00 - [13] Please donFt touch the slot layout and bonuses its good as it is now or we will end up with megat or other bs in disguise. Things that should be look into are PG/CPU, agility and boost to drone bay (not bandwidth). The first is to allow proper fittings. 2LAR T2 takes all the room for guns of proper size (neutrons). Agility bonus will create opportunity to catch the enemy before he manage to speed up and build distance while not stomping into Minmatar domain of being the fastest stuff out there. And last but not the least drone bay. Giving 125Mb to a ship with 8blasters would make it unbalanced while enlarging drone bay to 150-200m3 would give it lots of versality (one flight of heavies and one flight of ecm drones or web drones or warriors or spare heavies` ) Witch those changes I believe we would get unique and solid solo/small gang BS, the place and role where Hyperion should shine over everything else to begin with. Gallente donFt need 3rd fleet BS` With regards Darnok Iksnibiks
Angie McFish	Posted - 2010.05.22 12:08:00 - [14] Originally by: Darnok Iksnibiks Please donFt touch the slot layout and bonuses its good as it is now or we will end up with megat or other bs in disguise. Things that should be look into are PG/CPU, agility and boost to drone bay (not bandwidth). The first is to allow proper fittings. 2LAR T2 takes all the room for guns of proper size (neutrons). Agility bonus will create opportunity to catch the enemy before he manage to speed up and build distance while not stomping into Minmatar domain of being the fastest stuff out there. And last but not the least drone bay. Giving 125Mb to a ship with 8blasters would make it unbalanced while enlarging drone bay to 150-200m3 would give it lots of versality (one flight of heavies and one flight of ecm drones or web drones or warriors or spare heavies` )' I believe a bonus change is needed. How about giving it a bonus kinda like the thorax with the mwd bonus? Maybe reduce the cap loss with a certain percentage. Witch those changes I believe we would get unique and solid solo/small gang BS, the place and role where Hyperion should shine over everything else to begin with. Gallente donFt need 3rd fleet BS` With regards Darnok Iksnibiks
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition	Posted - 2010.05.22 12:14:00 - [15] Originally by: Ninetails o'Cat How to fix the Hype: 1. Swap the armour rep bonus for a hybrid ROF bonus 2. Move a highslot to a midslot I would like this. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Uncle Lim	Posted - 2010.05.22 12:25:00 - [16] Originally by: Angie McFish Edited by: Angie McFish on 22/05/2010 12:18:09 What if the Hyp got a mwd bonus like the THorax? Reduce cap loss by a certain percentage? This would be interesting, since among the certs recommended for the Hyp is High-Velocity Helmsman Standard (also recommended for the 'rax). Yes, I actually believe certs are useful.
Leopold Caine Amarr Stillwater Corporation	Posted - 2010.05.22 12:32:00 - [17] Originally by: Uncle Lim Yes, I actually believe certs are useful. o/o Hm, cap MWD bonus? On a BS? Are you serious? ____________________________________________________________
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2010.05.22 12:34:00 - [18] Originally by: Ninetails o'Cat How to fix the Hype: 1. Swap the armour rep bonus for a hybrid ROF bonus 2. Move a highslot to a midslot nah. instead moving a high to a mid, nerf targeting range. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Ninetails o'Cat League of Super Evil	Posted - 2010.05.22 12:59:00 - [19] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Ninetails o'Cat How to fix the Hype: 1. Swap the armour rep bonus for a hybrid ROF bonus 2. Move a highslot to a midslot nah. instead moving a high to a mid, nerf targeting range. 1831 DPS does sound tempting...
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2010.05.22 13:05:00 - [20] Originally by: Ninetails o'Cat Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Ninetails o'Cat How to fix the Hype: 1. Swap the armour rep bonus for a hybrid ROF bonus 2. Move a highslot to a midslot nah. instead moving a high to a mid, nerf targeting range. 1831 DPS does sound tempting... and cap as stable as a drunk 1-legged pole dancer in the middle of the storm of the century in the Bering sea. thing about RoF bonus is the fact that it also ups cap consumption up the whazoo, and even if you slam cap charges in it, I'm pretty damn sure that it's just to make the ship warp in and back out to the station to refil your cargo of cap charges after a 5-minute fight. so RoF being the self-balancing bonus that it is, with an axe on targeting range, making it quite bleh for long range shooting would make the ship quite "oooohhhh" and "aaaahhhh", while being limited to blaster ranges. ....now if only they swapped the RoF+boosting bonus of the mael for a dmg + shield HP bonus.... but that's a different thing alltogether. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.

Ninetails o'Cat League of Super Evil	Posted - 2010.05.22 13:09:00 - [21] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Ninetails o'Cat Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Ninetails o'Cat How to fix the Hype: 1. Swap the armour rep bonus for a hybrid ROF bonus 2. Move a highslot to a midslot nah. instead moving a high to a mid, nerf targeting range. 1831 DPS does sound tempting... and cap as stable as a drunk 1-legged pole dancer in the middle of the storm of the century in the Bering sea. thing about RoF bonus is the fact that it also ups cap consumption up the whazoo, and even if you slam cap charges in it, I'm pretty damn sure that it's just to make the ship warp in and back out to the station to refil your cargo of cap charges after a 5-minute fight. so RoF being the self-balancing bonus that it is, with an axe on targeting range, making it quite bleh for long range shooting would make the ship quite "oooohhhh" and "aaaahhhh", while being limited to blaster ranges. ....now if only they swapped the RoF+boosting bonus of the mael for a dmg + shield HP bonus.... but that's a different thing alltogether. Actually, it's more cap stable than an armageddon with mega pulses, and it has the mids to fit a cap booster + web + warp disruptor/scram + mwd. I still like the thought of all that DPS though.
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2010.05.22 13:14:00 - [22] Originally by: Ninetails o'Cat Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Ninetails o'Cat Originally by: Grimpak nah. instead moving a high to a mid, nerf targeting range. 1831 DPS does sound tempting... and cap as stable as a drunk 1-legged pole dancer in the middle of the storm of the century in the Bering sea. thing about RoF bonus is the fact that it also ups cap consumption up the whazoo, and even if you slam cap charges in it, I'm pretty damn sure that it's just to make the ship warp in and back out to the station to refil your cargo of cap charges after a 5-minute fight. so RoF being the self-balancing bonus that it is, with an axe on targeting range, making it quite bleh for long range shooting would make the ship quite "oooohhhh" and "aaaahhhh", while being limited to blaster ranges. ....now if only they swapped the RoF+boosting bonus of the mael for a dmg + shield HP bonus.... but that's a different thing alltogether. Actually, it's more cap stable than an armageddon with mega pulses, and it has the mids to fit a cap booster + web + warp disruptor/scram + mwd. I still like the thought of all that DPS though. oh yeah, having nearly 13 turrets worth of effective damage is something to consider. allied to the faults that blasters nowadays have, I do believe that you could balance such thing with just some mild touches on the ship's stats, either cap regeneration or targeting range, to avoid using it as a sniperboat. since all things considered, you will be doing nearly 2k dps at ranges no longer than 1 pogo stick and 5 wet pencils --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Ninetails o'Cat League of Super Evil	Posted - 2010.05.22 13:27:00 - [23] Originally by: Grimpak oh yeah, having nearly 13 turrets worth of effective damage is something to consider. allied to the faults that blasters nowadays have, I do believe that you could balance such thing with just some mild touches on the ship's stats, either cap regeneration or targeting range, to avoid using it as a sniperboat. since all things considered, you will be doing nearly 2k dps at ranges no longer than 1 pogo stick and 5 wet pencils I think it's important to fix blasters first though. Which would mean that the hype would be looked at in about 2050.
Dzajic Gallente Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2010.05.22 15:13:00 - [24] Yeah, lets fix armor tanking by removing it from game. :( AFAIK most common suggestions given for all Gall ships with active rep bonus is "fit shields". If best option for a ship with armor rep bonus is to fit shields, then something is seriously wrong somewhere.
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2010.05.22 16:11:00 - [25] Edited by: Grimpak on 22/05/2010 16:12:54 Originally by: Ninetails o'Cat Originally by: Grimpak oh yeah, having nearly 13 turrets worth of effective damage is something to consider. allied to the faults that blasters nowadays have, I do believe that you could balance such thing with just some mild touches on the ship's stats, either cap regeneration or targeting range, to avoid using it as a sniperboat. since all things considered, you will be doing nearly 2k dps at ranges no longer than 1 pogo stick and 5 wet pencils I think it's important to fix blasters first though. Which would mean that the hype would be looked at in about 2050. yeah, and that's a wee bit harder to accomplish. should say probably boost damage by like 20% or so and don't touch on the rest of the stats. Originally by: Dzajic Yeah, lets fix armor tanking by removing it from game. :( AFAIK most common suggestions given for all Gall ships with active rep bonus is "fit shields". If best option for a ship with armor rep bonus is to fit shields, then something is seriously wrong somewhere. problem is really not the bonus by itself. such bonus becomes redundant when it relies on a cap-intensive tanking that stresses out the ship even more. so you shield tank it instead and leave the lowslots open for dmg mods/TE's/nanos/grid stuff. look at the megathron, it doesn't need a repping bonus to be a good blaster ship. brutix also eschews such bonus so that it can actually do damage. only ship I can find that can rely itself on tanking bonus is the myrm. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
JAME5 KIRK	Posted - 2010.05.22 16:18:00 - [26] Edited by: JAME5 KIRK on 22/05/2010 16:18:36 Originally by: Lord Yusheng Originally by: Headerman Could someone please also explain why water is wet? New scientific information suggests that water doesn't behave as a liquid until after there are more than six molecules. For everyday purposes, there is much more than that, so until the exact relationship of the water to itself and to other substances can be proven by scientific means, then either answer to the question, why is water wet, whether it is or is not, is entirely philisophical and as long as there is evidence to support either theory, or rather no evidence to disprove either of them, then either answer is correct based on your own individual opinion and evaluation of the evidence that is at this time present in the scientific community. So, by the definition of wet, which is the condition of being covered or soaked in liquid, then water isn't wet, it just makes other things wet. a very terry pratchety type of answer indeed :)
Jacob Stov	Posted - 2010.05.22 17:57:00 - [27] Oh well, I'll post my standard reply to the generic gayllente whinepost: -tier 3 BS are meant to be gangships, thus give it the same amount of rep bonus to received RR. -increase cargobay of this barndoor, it needs those additional capboosters -5 heavy drones (dammit, it's a frog ship) -increase sig radius, it insults me my Rokh has a bigger sig then this barndoor -oh, and boost hybrid weapons !
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.05.22 18:48:00 - [28] Originally by: Jacob Holland The Tier 3 BS suffered in design from a lack of role. For the Caldari there was a clear need for a hybrid armed ship because so many complained that they had to retrain Gallente in order to build their fleet snipers (although the Raven can be very effective in that role if the FC makes proper use of them). For the rest though the Apoc, Mega and 'pest provided viable Fleet snipe BS and so finding a way to make the tier 3s different enough from the tier 2s was the issue... especially as CCP had published a thematic design brief, each race was getting an 8 gun fleet ship. With the Mael they succeeded, we got a ship which could fit 1400s relatively easily and (originally) could work a brilliant combination of autos and capital shield booster. The Abaddon and the Hyp failed though. Are you seriously saying that the Abaddon is "fail"?
Kulmid Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.05.22 18:51:00 - [29] The tanking bonuses on the tier 3 BSs are set to match those of tier 1 BCs. _________________
Novantco The Tuskers The Tusker Bastards	Posted - 2010.05.22 19:30:00 - [30] I wouldn't say no to having a bit more grid and a bigger drone bay on it.



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