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Camios Agent
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Posted - 2010.05.06 10:41:00 -
[1]
As far as I see, in EVE there in no way for a proper credit to be born.
I know that there was a thing called E-bank, but if you remember Ebank had some problems with their directors (one of them actually sold several billions to isk sellers): there is an evident problem of trust.
This problem of trust is the same that affected freeform contracts: their only use was scamming, and they were thus removed from the game.
I definitely think that some measures to guarantee loans and investments can be put in place. But the question is: would we like a working and safer credit system in New Eden? What will change?
As far as I imagine, a working credit would entail:
- Possibility for younger players to farm less and have access to better gear and equipment. - Possibility for corporations and players to lend money from other individuals and invest it.
But also, the bigger availability of money will cause some effect:
- Inflation, whose entity is bound to the availability of credit (maybe). - Less farming time (maybe).
Some ways to introduce safety in loans could be these below, and any of these involves punishment for the defaulter.
- Empire factions and corporations can guarantee the loan. If I have, for example, 8.0 standing with Brutor Tribe, I can ask for a loan and Brutor Tribe will guarantee my loan (up to a certain amount). If I fail to pay on time, I wll have a huge standing loss with that corporation. This may involve LPs too.
- Security status loss for defaulter (somewhat ineffective I think)
- Prohibition to dock in empire stations / act on the market / make contracts until the money is returned and a fee is paid.
- maybe a stronger collateral system.
What do you think?
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Niccolado Starwalker
Gallente Shadow Templars
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Posted - 2010.05.06 10:44:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 06/05/2010 10:47:35 A banking solution of some kind might be on its place. Maybe. I dont know really since its breaking with the sandbox model of the game.
But one thing is sure. IF its added to the game CCP must make its services an ISK sink! That way something useful might come out from it...
Added: An example could be, lets say 10% tax on the banking transfer with a total of 5% reduction on a 5 level skill.
Originally by: Dianabolic Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL. |
Chai N'Dorr
Rumrunner Logistics
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Posted - 2010.05.06 11:00:00 -
[3]
The problem is not only a lack of trust. A main problem is a lack of being able to do something about getting your money back. Once someone runs off with your cash or items, it is peanuts to 'launder' said items.
If you were able to 'tag' your items or if there was a skill to actually hack into a characters bank account - and I say character, not player - to see what happens to your tagged stuff (a bit like the full access API-key works), then you could at least see where your stuff ends up. And then do something about it. _
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Haxfar Portlaind
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Posted - 2010.05.06 11:02:00 -
[4]
As much as a bank could benefit Eve (especially the marked), AFAIK the main problem is that if you make a loan from someone, you would then send the money to another char and delete the one you used for the loan.
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RentableMuffin
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Posted - 2010.05.06 11:10:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Chai N'Dorr The problem is not only a lack of trust. A main problem is a lack of being able to do something about getting your money back. Once someone runs off with your cash or items, it is peanuts to 'launder' said items.
heh it is easy enough to just launder characters
apparently new players get free ships from the tutorial now, thats more than I got... although I did get a 500k donation from my friend, saved me a few hours mining or something.
as for better gear, I really don't think they need it. between that 500k and going off and grinding isk myself I pretty much put myself in new ships and got new gear at a pretty reasonable pace.
although lp + standings backed loans are pretty interesting. although I guess in most cases I'd rather just cash that lp in.
although "Prohibition to dock in empire stations / act on the market / make contracts until the money is returned and a fee is paid. " kinda prevents them from even being able to make the isk back to pay it in many situations.
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Nika Dekaia
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Posted - 2010.05.06 11:10:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Nika Dekaia on 06/05/2010 11:11:42 A scamfree, guaranteed way to make more ISK is not a good thing. As you said it will cause inflation and no matter what boundaries you impose, EVERYONE will be doing it, sooner or later. Bad idea.
As for loans: As Starwalker said, it's a sandbox. Player provide that already and it's risk vs reward for the investor, as it should be. Trust is hard earned and easily lost in this game.
A loan game mechanic would lessen the grind, sure. For example: Instead of grinding with an inferior ship and then buy a faction fit marauder, everyone would get a loan, buy a faction fit marauder and then grind to pay the ISK back. All in all it would just make people get more ISK faster with no effort. Which is bad, as well.
If you want a loan: work for it and convince people to invest in you. An automated mechanism doing it with no effort is bad imho.
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Lexx Khadar
Minmatar HellForge. Lucky Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.05.06 11:43:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Nika Dekaia Edited by: Nika Dekaia on 06/05/2010 11:11:42 A scamfree, guaranteed way to make more ISK is not a good thing. As you said it will cause inflation and no matter what boundaries you impose, EVERYONE will be doing it, sooner or later. Bad idea.
As for loans: As Starwalker said, it's a sandbox. Player provide that already and it's risk vs reward for the investor, as it should be. Trust is hard earned and easily lost in this game.
A loan game mechanic would lessen the grind, sure. For example: Instead of grinding with an inferior ship and then buy a faction fit marauder, everyone would get a loan, buy a faction fit marauder and then grind to pay the ISK back. All in all it would just make people get more ISK faster with no effort. Which is bad, as well.
If you want a loan: work for it and convince people to invest in you. An automated mechanism doing it with no effort is bad imho.
This. We don't need a coded bank mechanism. If only for the fact it sets a precedence for other areas to become restricted in similar ways. And there is trust in this game. You need to trust the right people in a corp to get any meaningful work done. I've had several loans off friends in game that don't know me in real life of quite a few million and have always repaid them with interest on top. What the op suggests just has too much scope for abuse.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2010.05.06 12:28:00 -
[8]
Designing game mechanics to support player-generated in-game activities can be a good thing to make life easier, as long as those mechanics merely make explicit constructs which were previously implicit. A simple example that comes to mind is alliances; when they were added they simply acknowledged in fact something which already existed in principle.
However, the idea of adding a mechanic which helps to guarantee loans and similar redefines the construct since, as you say, it currently has some trouble due to issues of trust. That lack of trust is a creation of the players; it is due to their actions and attitudes that it is difficult to trust anyone. By removing that and replacing it with a static mechanic you might make the game 'better' in some sense (though I don't see any real benefits), but if you keep adding mechanics to make the game 'better' like this, you eventually end up with a theme park instead of a sandbox. -
DesuSigs - Now with ThreadAssignÖ and SigSelectÖ |
Deus Ex'Machina
The-Machine
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Posted - 2010.05.06 13:21:00 -
[9]
In the real world, trust is not needed when taking a loan, there are policemen, professional killers or even lawyers to enforce the trade.
Eve is not the real world, Eve has alts, in Eve you have get-out-off-responsibility-free-cards and in Eve you can scam with CCP's blessing. - Arkanon: EXPLAIN YOURSELF, EVILDOER! Sharkbait: Dude. - Bashing trolls since 2047. Which way does time go again? <_> |
Makoisle
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Posted - 2010.05.06 14:19:00 -
[10]
The other problem I see, is somebody taking out a massive loan and then deciding they don't want to be bothered to pay it back and thus quitting the game.
How would you get your money back in that case? And then, what if they decide to come back six months later? Are they scott free?
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Camios Agent
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Posted - 2010.05.06 14:40:00 -
[11]
When you ask for a loan in real life, you need to give them some collateral and guarantees (have you got a house? have you got a job?) and if you default someone is going to catch you.
Keep in mind that in real life nobody would lend anything to a person who has not a job, has not a house... Those people in EVE are the alts you talk about.
The main problem in lending something to someone in EVE is that he can give all to his main, delete the alt and create a new one. But some things cannot be trensferred between characters:
- standings to NPC corporations - skillpoints
I would be comfortable in lending a certain amount of money to a person in the case that if he defaults he is going to lose more than what I have lent to him.
For example, imagine that I can see that JohnSmith has a 6.00 standing with Brutor Tribe, and he has got 10mil SP. He wants to borrow 10 mil from me: I would lend him this sum of money because I know he's a main, and if he defaults he's going to:
- lose all his standing towards brutor corporation, let's say that his standing would fall to -5.00 from 6.00. - lose a lot of sec status, let's say he's going to fall to -5 so he can't get back to empire soon. - he will not be able to sell or buy stuff in any highsec system - he will not be able to dock in any highsec station - Brutor tribe will refund me the 40% of the loss.
I mean that for certain kinds of players, heavy penalties can be inflicted in case of default, discouraging it.
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Plocsk
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Posted - 2010.05.06 14:44:00 -
[12]
Alts make any form of punishment for not repaying a loan obsolete.
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Conan Piter
Ways and Means
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Posted - 2010.05.06 15:04:00 -
[13]
Here's an in-game idea to at least assist lenders a little: allow insured assets to be included in loan collateral for the duration of the insurance contract.
The collateral would be the insurance payout, and if the loan defaults the assets are automatically self-destructed (during down-time). These assets would be publicly tagged as "Mortgaged" and prevented from being included in other contracts.
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Camios Agent
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Posted - 2010.05.06 15:32:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Plocsk Alts make any form of punishment for not repaying a loan obsolete.
That's true if and only if you lend money to alts. If you lend money to the main, the punishment is effective.
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Shidhe
Minmatar The Babylon5 Consortuim
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Posted - 2010.05.06 16:26:00 -
[15]
A little while ago I lent my forum weight to an old friend who was starting up a business. He got lots of other recommendations too. The problem in general is that EVE is much too big for everyone to have a `trustworthiness' page.
Maybe it might be possible to have an EvE credit rating attribute for each character... OK, suppose Chribba clicks a link saying `Shidhe is amazingly trustworthy' I get so many points. Then I endorse someone else, and so on... It sounds vague, but it might be workable - I will think about it. It is not a million miles from how trusted sites on the web work.
But that is just about single characters. Corps are different. There is a problem with corp and alliance management.This is (partially) simpler to solve. It involves making those different wallets in game actually mean something.
A savings wallet - open for deposits only in general. Taking money out (above a specified amount per day) requires authorisation from a specified number of directors. Additionally, the withdrawl might only be authorised 24 hours after the vote.
Direct debits - instructions for an amount to be paid from a certain wallet of a corp/character into a specified wallet of a certain corp/character. These debits are recorded separately for each account. If this is a savings account, authorisations are required as above to set up a direct debit from the account.
By such methods the weakest link of a single character wrecking the whole corp/bank should be avoided. The trust instead becomes placed on a group of characters, which should be more reliable.
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Conan Piter
Ways and Means
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Posted - 2010.05.06 16:41:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Shidhe Maybe it might be possible to have an EvE credit rating attribute for each character...
How about taking that a little further with a player-driven opportunity: credit rating services. Each time a member of the credit service loans money to someone, they register the loan and the borrower's credit-score goes down. Each time they pay back in full, it starts to go back up and eventually exceeds where it left off. The lender also gets a small change in their lending score. The amount of rating change is determined by the amount of the loan, the amount of safe collateral, the rating of the lender and seller, character ages, vouching for one another, etc.
Any member of the service can ask for a credit-check for any other member (and require a borrower to be a member first). If I borrow 10m ISK 10 times and pay it off on time each time, my credit score might be 10m, meaning one can be reasonably sure I will repay a 10m loan on time. It is up to the lender how much they loan above the score (depending on collateral, etc) but the key is that the system is incremental and you can only borrow a little more than you have in the past.
While it is possible to cheat, the costs of losing your score start to outweigh the benefits and overall this is just an extra tool in establishing the loan agreement. This is kind of how Chribba works: his score is more valuable than the scam.
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