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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2644
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 16:25:00 -
[1] - Quote
Many thanks to Spence from The Tactical Entertainment Network for his willingness to host us this weekend, it was a great chance for everyone to talk about their experiences with the new changes and to bounce ideas off each other on how we can improve things moving forward.
Thanks too for the guests that came on from each of the four militias, it was a very civil and productive discussion overall and I can't wait for Spence to invite us back for another round in the future, there was no way we could cover it all in a single talk!
Here is the link for those of you that would like to listen:
TEN EVEning News Roundtable #1: Faction Warfare
Feel free to use this thread to discuss what you heard, and add your thoughts and feedback! Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Major Killz
Chaotic Tranquility
37
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Posted - 2012.07.10 16:29:00 -
[2] - Quote
You all sound like nerds. just saying... [Reset] Amarr/Minmatar factional warfare. |
Deen Wispa
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
290
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 16:40:00 -
[3] - Quote
Major Killz wrote:You all sound like nerds. just saying... [Reset] Amarr/Minmatar factional warfare.
If you only knew....
Sorry I missed the roundtable but I lost power.
Kinda wished you guys would've trolled each other more like you do on forums and keeping to the "spirit" :) Gallente FW Blog http://iamsheriff.com/blog C'est La Eve :) |
Major Killz
Chaotic Tranquility
37
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Posted - 2012.07.10 16:54:00 -
[4] - Quote
You what's sad about factional warfare pilots? They complain alot. How many times have I read and heard in this disscussion that some dude wants to force others to fight.
It's like when I was a full time pirate. I often heard from terrible pilots who were pirates who were mad because people had the ability to warp away and they wanted more ways to force people to either fight or die.
Crying like children who don't get their way. Resources are fought over and outlaws hunt pilots exploiting resources. This is like the mofracking animal kingdom. African lion hunting and eating gazelle savanna sh!t
Plex are the resource that can be exploited. That brings pilots to the area. Pilots are willing to fight each other over the resoruce (defend or attack).
What's most important is that CCP makes sure that the ships needed to exploit the resouce is expensive or atleast not just a afterburning frigate. There would be levels of difficulty kinda like Incursions. Some that need a fleet and others that can be done solo.
As long as thier targets in an area a person can pvp. They can camp and force people to either fight or try to run away or explode.
Forcing pvp is arena/ring bullsh!t and is lame. If I wanted to see arena pvp I would watch the alliance tournament alot more. That sh!t is wack and so is the crying about forcing pilots to engage.
The resource brings pilots there. You as a solo pvp or small gang have to try to catch those b!tches.
Alot of these dudes have been in faction warfare to long and don't know how convenient they have it compared to pirates or those who solo or roam in small gangs in 0.0.
That's why almost no corporation/alliance ever makes it after leaving faction warfare. Factional warfare is hand holding and easier for pilots to do solo or in small gangs and find targets. Compared to pirating or 0.0 |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
310
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 17:07:00 -
[5] - Quote
LOL, I mentioned during the production that these things always turn into whinefests (like on these forums) because they always focus on plexing mechanics, missions, and other features that are not fully functional.
The best thing about FW is the free war dec and the massive number of fights available on a consistent basis. During the break when there was no topic for us to whine about, we has a great discussion about the virtues of sniper cormorants and how they are superior to the other destroyers even though CCP thinks they are lacking. And that it was great that many more different shiptypes get used in FW that simply aren't used elsewhere.
My experience is that most corporations don't make it outside of FW because the rest of Eve moves at such a gawd awful slow and boring pace. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2644
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 17:23:00 -
[6] - Quote
Deen Wispa wrote:Kinda wished you guys would've trolled each other more like you do on forums and keeping to the "spirit" :)
Thank god we didn't. The trolling directly impedes the process of improving the system. Take, for instance, the plexing bug. There's been threads on it for ages - and every single one of them turned into ridiculous factional finger pointing and were so heavily biased its no surprise the devs assumed it was just FW folk being dickheads to each other.
"They're winning the war by cheating!! No, YOU are the one's who cheating! Oh yeah? well at least we don't cheat as much as YOU do. " If someone wants to talk s**** about the other faction, GREAT. But we have a lot of work to do in a short amount of time, and those that have been helpful in this process have been the ones that can curb the childish bickering and have an objective conversation about the game mechanics. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
106
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Posted - 2012.07.10 17:35:00 -
[7] - Quote
Major Killz wrote:You what's sad about factional warfare pilots? They complain alot. How many times have I read and heard in this disscussion that some dude wants to force others to fight.
It's like when I was a full time pirate. I often heard from terrible pilots who were pirates who were mad because people had the ability to warp away and they wanted more ways to force people to either fight or die.
Crying like children who don't get their way. Resources are fought over and outlaws hunt pilots exploiting resources. This is like the mofracking animal kingdom. African lion hunting and eating gazelle savanna sh!t
Plex are the resource that can be exploited. That brings pilots to the area. Pilots are willing to fight each other over the resoruce (defend or attack).
What's most important is that CCP makes sure that the ships needed to exploit the resouce is expensive or atleast not just a afterburning frigate. There would be levels of difficulty kinda like Incursions. Some that need a fleet and others that can be done solo.
As long as thier targets in an area a person can pvp. They can camp and force people to either fight or try to run away or explode.
Forcing pvp is arena/ring bullsh!t and is lame. If I wanted to see arena pvp I would watch the alliance tournament alot more. That sh!t is wack and so is the crying about forcing pilots to engage.
The resource brings pilots there. You as a solo pvp or small gang have to try to catch those b!tches.
Alot of these dudes have been in faction warfare to long and don't know how convenient they have it compared to pirates or those who solo or roam in small gangs in 0.0.
That's why almost no corporation/alliance ever makes it after leaving faction warfare. Factional warfare is hand holding and easier for pilots to do solo or in small gangs and find targets. Compared to pirating or 0.0
Sounds like someone didn't really listen very carefully. No one wants to force pvp. But if you join Faction Warfare, why the **** else should you be there? What we don't like are mechanics that affect warzone control and allow people to make it harder for us to fund our pvp by competing with us for item prices, without ever actually risking their ships. FW is supposed to be driving pvp. When a bunch of farmers come in, it doesn't drive ****. It's about bad mechanics, not people "whining" over kills. I got around 200 kills last month, I'm not struggling. What we complain about is silly mechanics that are supposed to drive pvp, and don't actually do that. If CCP wanted to make a farmers paradise, they could just advertise it as such. FW is advertised as a PVP environment, so why are the mechanics so friendly to farmers? |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
219
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 17:55:00 -
[8] - Quote
*Sadness*
Bunch of pew carebears talking about exploits incentives .. where is that which launched FW and involved everyone, causing much grief, laughs and just plain old Good TimesGäó .. RP.
You should have tried getting Ms. Constantine, Admiral Rodj Blake or some such to at least have it represented.
PS: Just started podcast, so above content mention is merely a hunch |
Major Killz
Chaotic Tranquility
37
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 18:07:00 -
[9] - Quote
@ Julius Fed
There was 40min spent chatting about forcing pilots to pvp. It was only untill someone who had some sense redirected the argument, with regard to forcing pilots to pvp. Also! You cry alot. whip your tears and drink from your bottle.
@ X Gallente
I was in 2 faction warfare corporations/alliances that left factional warfare. 1 was very successful outside of factional warfare for awhile (No Mercy). The other alliance had wolfsbrigade and shadows of the federation. Both went back to factional warfare. Most of thier pilots were lost outside of factional warfare and the few who weren't were solo pvpers who also pirated. Those pilots accounted for less than 5% of the alliance/corporation.
Even now I don't allow this corporation to recruit to many pilots from factional warfare and when we do they are pirates or had alot of experience living in 0.0
- Long day @ work and bored.. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2644
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 18:25:00 -
[10] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:*Sadness* Bunch of pew carebears talking about exploits incentives .. where is that which launched FW and involved everyone, causing much grief, laughs and just plain old Good TimesGäó .. RP. You should have tried getting Ms. Constantine, Admiral Rodj Blake or some such to at least have it represented. PS: Just started podcast, so above content mention is merely a hunch
Pew carebears? Jumbo Shrimp? Corporate ethics?
As a role player surely you sympathize with the fact that the Amarr militia corps have to switch sides in order to afford ships, many people can't fight for their chosen faction any more without relying on separate militia with alts to farm isk. There really isn't a grief, laughs, or good times if one faction can't afford ships any longer.
Likewise, there isn't much grief, laughs, or good times when you're chasing those farmers out of plexes because they're not even fitting guns to their ships and there's zero incentive to stay and fight when its more efficent to just bounce around and avoid all conflict entirely.
There are some serious mechanical issues that need work to bring Faction Warfare up to its full potential, and in doing so it will enable every pilot to fly for the faction they love and believe in. You know this for a fact, because your posting for months has focused in on the broken mechanics, not so much the lack of RP going on in Faction Warfare (which the players can address themselves with or without CCP attention).
Besides, this was only the first of hopefully many round tables to come, I would get in touch with Spence from TEN and let him know you'd like to discuss RP issues in Faction Warfare. We all agreed there was much more to discuss than could fit into the allotted time. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
219
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 18:51:00 -
[11] - Quote
The RP I am referring to is as stated "that which launched FW ..", so before your time. Ex: CCP designated a system which had to be taken in X amount of days/weeks. Result was a story detailing the efforts, win or lose and a medal for participants .. you'd be amazed at the fighting and general frolicking in local that came of something as simple as that.
People switching sides to get access to another LP store doesn't bother me as that lies squarely in the MMO part of things .. merely a way to game the system as it is, same goes for LP farmers. Both were called by us in the common sense/logic crowd prior to patch going live so ..
Forty minutes in now and it has been regurgitated forum posts so far .. surprised at the amount of mechanics talk though, Had expected it to kick of with WZC modifiers and LP payouts.
As for future roundtables, could you ask CCP if they can spare one of their nerds for a bit? Some of the 'best' ideas I have read/heard would require quite some work I suspect, if they are even possible and it would be beneficial to have a horses-mouth to give direct feedback to avoid the panels going way off base. Doesn't have to be any of the head honchos mind you, just someone with insight into what is possible/within reason. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
310
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 19:22:00 -
[12] - Quote
Major Killz wrote: @ X Gallente I was in 2 faction warfare corporations/alliances that left factional warfare. 1 was very successful outside of factional warfare for awhile (No Mercy). The other alliance had wolfsbrigade and shadows of the federation. Both went back to factional warfare. Most of thier pilots were lost outside of factional warfare and the few who weren't were solo pvpers who also pirated. Those pilots accounted for less than 5% of the alliance/corporation.
I don't know where to go with this. Either I agree with you (but IMO you're mostly wrong), or I have to throw some compliments to two over zealous hot-dropping corps who came up with the worst alliance name ever (which I don't want to do).
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Hurtado Soneka
Serenity Prime
71
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 19:30:00 -
[13] - Quote
so very few valid points, had to leave it an hr in lol |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2644
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 19:36:00 -
[14] - Quote
Hurtado Soneka wrote:so very few valid points, had to leave it an hr in lol
So be useful and post them right here, I'm listening. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Major Killz
Chaotic Tranquility
41
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Posted - 2012.07.10 19:37:00 -
[15] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Major Killz wrote: @ X Gallente I was in 2 faction warfare corporations/alliances that left factional warfare. 1 was very successful outside of factional warfare for awhile (No Mercy). The other alliance had wolfsbrigade and shadows of the federation. Both went back to factional warfare. Most of thier pilots were lost outside of factional warfare and the few who weren't were solo pvpers who also pirated. Those pilots accounted for less than 5% of the alliance/corporation.
I don't know where to go with this. Either I agree with you (but IMO you're mostly wrong), or I have to throw some compliments to two over zealous hot-dropping corps who came up with the worst alliance name ever (which I don't want to do).
To save you from making a decision. I'll just be wrong = ) |
Generals4
967
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 19:38:00 -
[16] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Hurtado Soneka wrote:so very few valid points, had to leave it an hr in lol So be useful and post them right here, I'm listening.
You don't know how EVE forums work do you? -Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily. |
Hurtado Soneka
Serenity Prime
71
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 19:45:00 -
[17] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Hurtado Soneka wrote:so very few valid points, had to leave it an hr in lol So be useful and post them right here, I'm listening.
Not meaning to troll but after you yourself said your against taking down npc rats in a plex and then offered a fanciful alternative CCP may/may not introduce new rat types to compensate, really? This is one aspect of the FW that is core in the problems, and can be fixed with such a simple patch.
Ofcourse perhaps not everybody agrees that rats should die but it seems to be the majority opinion, perhaps a poll would show proper public opinion. Am against elaborate fixes when simple ones would work, as for the rest, well a guy above me already said reguritating forum posts from the past few weeks. |
David Clausewitz
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
36
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Posted - 2012.07.10 20:08:00 -
[18] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Hurtado Soneka wrote:so very few valid points, had to leave it an hr in lol So be useful and post them right here, I'm listening.
He never said he had a solution. |
Simyaldee
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
31
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 20:14:00 -
[19] - Quote
how'd they decide who was going to be a guest? was it an open invitation or something? Join the war, Join the4
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2645
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 20:31:00 -
[20] - Quote
Hurtado Soneka wrote:Not meaning to troll but after you yourself said your against taking down npc rats in a plex and then offered a fanciful alternative CCP may/may not introduce new rat types to compensate, really? This is one aspect of the FW that is core in the problems, and can be fixed with such a simple patch.
Ofcourse perhaps not everybody agrees that rats should die but it seems to be the majority opinion, perhaps a poll would show proper public opinion. Am against elaborate fixes when simple ones would work, as for the rest, well a guy above me already said reguritating forum posts from the past few weeks.
There's no poll necessary, I've said many times that this is clearly what the majority of players are asking for, which is why I've already talked about it to CCP. In fact, this is at least the 4th or 5th time I've posted in the forums that I've already talked to CCP about the fix. It's just not very simple, and I doubt it would happen before Winter anyways. "Force us to shoot the rats" started in response to the removal of E-war, and was offered as a quick fix to tide us over until the Winter expansion. If the holdover isn't going to happen till Winter anyways, I just want us to be careful about slapping it in carelessly with whatever other changes are made.
I've also been quite clear in saying that while I don't like arbitrary forced PvE in Faction Warfare, that if the majority of players want it, I'll keep pushing it through. I've questioned the decision, and asked for dissenting opinions to come forward, because I want to everyone to be perfectly aware of what they're asking for before the inevitable "But I just want to PvP, why do i have to shoot rat to take space??" whinefest comes down the road. I hear every day that Sovereignty should be about PvP and not about PvE, yet ironically it's forced PvE that players are asking for.
I, too, am very much against elaborate fixes, but you also have no idea how often complaint about NPC imbalance has come up over the years. CCP's heard this loud and clear, and are looking at overhauling the rats, and are asking for everyone's opinion on the matter. I don't think "the rats are just fine, leave them alone" works any better for the community at this point. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2645
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Posted - 2012.07.10 20:34:00 -
[21] - Quote
Simyaldee wrote:how'd they decide who was going to be a guest? was it an open invitation or something?
I'm not sure, I was just invited on the show like everyone else. Feel free to talk to Spence if you'd like to join us for a future round of talks! Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Deen Wispa
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
290
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 20:42:00 -
[22] - Quote
Simyaldee wrote:how'd they decide who was going to be a guest? was it an open invitation or something?
You have to be part of the FW clique. lol
For each show, Spence does his homework and research on the ideal candidates to interview by scouring forums and other stuff. Gallente FW Blog http://iamsheriff.com/blog C'est La Eve :) |
Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch Caldari State Capturing
18
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Posted - 2012.07.10 20:45:00 -
[23] - Quote
Deen Wispa wrote:For each show, Spence does his homework and research on the ideal candidates to interview by scouring forums and other stuff.
And yet he has not even asked me?
Then again, there are probably laws about it out there if you get my meaning....
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David Clausewitz
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
37
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Posted - 2012.07.10 20:49:00 -
[24] - Quote
Who was arguing around 1:05-1:10 that it's okay that the Amarr LP (or anyone's LP at T1/T2) is as worthless as it is?
The whole "spike it and cash out" system is fail and it seemed like everyone was agreeing that a % increase in LP earned real-time for the tier levels would be a much more effective systems for everyone except that one guy. Are they braindead? |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
310
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 20:49:00 -
[25] - Quote
Yuri Intaki wrote:Deen Wispa wrote:For each show, Spence does his homework and research on the ideal candidates to interview by scouring forums and other stuff. And yet he has not even asked me? Then again, there are probably laws about it out there if you get my meaning.... I believe there is some sort of international treaty the disallows you and chatgris to be on the same comms.
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Hurtado Soneka
Serenity Prime
72
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Posted - 2012.07.10 20:55:00 -
[26] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
I've also been quite clear in saying that while I don't like arbitrary forced PvE in Faction Warfare, that if the majority of players want it, I'll keep pushing it through. I've questioned the decision, and asked for dissenting opinions to come forward, because I want to everyone to be perfectly aware of what they're asking for before the inevitable "But I just want to PvP, why do i have to shoot rat to take space??" whinefest comes down the road.
Faction Warfare no matter how you look at it is a PvE enterprise though, without getting in an RP perspective the whole point of FW is working for an ingame faction to gain control over the enemies space, yes this includes thankfully LOTS of pvp and its great, YES it should be more of a factor in determining overall success, and weve seen things like gaining LP for kills getting attention, however the fact will always remain this is a PvE sandbox where currently we gain control by orbiting a plex button 30 times then shooting an NPC bunker.
The whining for this comes from the fact a person in a dual fitted frigate can do this completely risk free, and dare i say under crazy conditions can then fit lasers and take down the system if nobody bothers with him. That needs to be addressed and getting farmers to kill the rats is a pure base line simple fix.
Just to note for people who cant bother listenin to the whole thing, there is a hilarious discussion about capitals which ends 1hr 40 mins in, the guy even goes as far as to suggest for cyno jammers. in low sec. they actually said that.
In all honestly the round table discussion had some interesting suggestions come up and i respect all that took part, but the vast majority was stuff that has been said a thousand times and even the good suggestions had heavy bias.
The most interesting part in the whole thing was the suggestion on how to fix the market, but what would be more interesting would be a dev to take part and simply state what was doable and a timeframe, it would certainly stop all the bs whine threads and let people be content with some real answers.
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BolsterBomb
State Protectorate Caldari State
107
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Posted - 2012.07.10 21:05:00 -
[27] - Quote
That was such a BS answer by the objection allowing gallente to come over and pelx minnitar
"we couldnt get money if we were gallente"
BS you guys have plenty of space to plex you simply want a perma t4 / t5 without putting in the work
Chatgris Brig General of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation |
Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch Caldari State Capturing
159
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Posted - 2012.07.10 21:11:00 -
[28] - Quote
I wonder why you even try to improve your game play.
If you manage to find solution that creates more subs for CCP it will be implemented right away, but if not no one is interested about it.
Inferno was boost for alts and as we can see people swarm those a lot and ccp gets more subs and players get more isk so they can pretend that 0.0 is good place.
Now invent more ways to add alt accounts. |
Thomas Kreshant
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
113
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Posted - 2012.07.10 21:16:00 -
[29] - Quote
Simyaldee wrote:how'd they decide who was going to be a guest? was it an open invitation or something?
Pretty sure I saw it posted somewhere (possibly on a thread following the last podcast with Susan) where they'd said they were going to do the round table and asked those running corps/alliances to get in touch |
Aradus Gunnell
Tactical Entertainment Network I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
28
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Posted - 2012.07.10 21:30:00 -
[30] - Quote
Thomas Kreshant wrote:Simyaldee wrote:how'd they decide who was going to be a guest? was it an open invitation or something? Pretty sure I saw it posted somewhere (possibly on a thread following the last podcast with Susan) where they'd said they were going to do the round table and asked those running corps/alliances to get in touch
I put it out on my show and on Twitter for about a month prior to the Roundtable, had some bites, and did some research into guests. Some were available, others weren't, and some were pulled in to the call semi-last minute to fill some seats by recommendation from others on the panel.
Future roundtables will be handled the same way; we have a Mining & Industry panel coming up in about 6 weeks; in 2 weeks, I'll start asking for volunteers.
Thanks to all who came on the show; appreciate the time and effort!
SPENCE from TEN EVEning News! DUST514 & EVE Online news every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday!
We Pay Isk for good stories!-á Contact me via eve mail, here on the forums, or at www.tacticalentertainment.tv |
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
310
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Posted - 2012.07.10 21:33:00 -
[31] - Quote
BolsterBomb wrote:That was such a BS answer by the objection allowing gallente to come over and pelx minnitar "we couldnt get money if we were gallente" BS you guys have plenty of space to plex you simply want a perma t4 / t5 without putting in the work Chatgris It is a BS answer. I get plenty of isk being Gallente. And I thank my "Mew"matar mates for plexing like mad and not polluting my Gallente LP store. (for the record: It's cheesy)
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
149
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Posted - 2012.07.10 21:40:00 -
[32] - Quote
BolsterBomb wrote:That was such a BS answer by the objection allowing gallente to come over and pelx minnitar
"we couldnt get money if we were gallente"
BS you guys have plenty of space to plex you simply want a perma t4 / t5 without putting in the work
Chatgris
My answer: We're allies. I was pissed at the SOTF/WBR debacle for the same reason, we're allies. Having two allied militias that can help each other like this is in my opinion a release valve for when one side is dominating the plexing war.
Not to mention, the same thing happens on the Amarr side. I believe during that conversation I-LAW said they're going Caldari but staying in the Amarr/Minmatar warzone. I wouldn't be surprised to see more corps follow. No point in dooming the Amarr or Gallente guys to ****** LP stores. |
Zarnak Wulf
The Roaches
424
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Posted - 2012.07.10 22:18:00 -
[33] - Quote
I've listened to an hour of it. I'll have to listen to the rest tomorrow. Some things I liked:
I like the plex counters moving back to zero if noone is on them. I don't know how many times I've chased off a gunless rifter and had to sit on a button for 35 minutes to close it.
I like the idea of having fewer, more fragile npc's that could web and hurt speed tankers. I think a more strategic placement around the button and some aggro rules would alleviate pve ruining pvp concerns.
I like the idea of tier control affecting how much lp you earn rather then the cost of LP items. Tearing apart upgrades in the rear systems is a viable tactic in war. The enemy hasn't peeled forces off of their front to do security sweeps though because they'd rather just 'spike' every so often. If you're lp earnings are going down - you'll care alot more. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2646
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 22:19:00 -
[34] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:It is a BS answer. I get plenty of isk being Gallente. And I thank my "Mew"matar mates for plexing like mad and not polluting my Gallente LP store. (for the record: It's cheesy)
Could you elaborate on this? Are you telling everyone that is complaining that the pricing is too brutal for the losing faction to HTFU, or calling them liars?
If you're surviving just fine off the income made as a member of a losing faction, maybe you could explain to everyone what you're doing differently then they are... Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Pulgy
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
61
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Posted - 2012.07.10 22:34:00 -
[35] - Quote
I listened to that entire podcast expecting Jul's to yell "surprise cockbag!", alas I left disappointed. p.s. I want my time back No range? No problem!Join the Church of the Holy BlasterGäó . A Hybrid religion. |
Brullig
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
0
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Posted - 2012.07.10 22:41:00 -
[36] - Quote
I'm just gonna leave this here.
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
311
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Posted - 2012.07.10 22:45:00 -
[37] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Could you elaborate on this? Are you telling everyone that is complaining that the pricing is too brutal for the losing faction to HTFU, or calling them liars? If you're surviving just fine off the income made as a member of a losing faction, maybe you could explain to everyone what you're doing differently then they are... I am saying two things: 1. I am making plenty of isk as a Gallente Militia pilot. We were able to get to Tier 3 this past weekend, and with the "spiking" nature of Warzone control, the overall supply of Gallente FW items is limited. I paid the same for mods as I did before inferno, but module prices are now higher. 2. Joining the allied militia and staying in theater is a cheesy, but legal, move.
What I am not saying: 1. Amarr can make tons of isk in their current situation with their current tactics. They don't have enough systems to get to Tier 2. 2. Amarr shouldn't move to Caldari and stay in the Amarr theater. They can do whatever they think is necessary to survive - even if it's cheesy. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
488
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 23:45:00 -
[38] - Quote
I thought it was a great podcast. Great guests with allot of different views. Most know the faction war mechanics very well.
My views:
I think people tend to agree that 1) plexing is most efficiently done as a pve activity and agree 2) that is a problem. Which is good to hear.
Timer countdown idea to help address that seemed to be well received without any objections.
CCP will hopefully continue to balance the npcs and do something so they don't interfere with pvp.
The rest of the issues were really non-issues imo.
As far as keeping the lp pricing the same and just changing the lp payout - I'm not sure. The lp of the winning side would get watered down no doubt.
Plus this would mean its easier to upgrade systems with lp. Part of the reason minmatar don't want to upgrade systems is because each lp is valuable. If everyone in minmatar had 4xs as much lp yet the store only gave preinferno pricing then it would not be that hard to keep the systems upgraded.
I think the current mechanic where each side should plan big warzone flips is better for faction war in the long run.
System upgrades aren't really an issue. Although I do concede it would be better if people were forced to save that lp that otherwise drains out of the system when enemies offensive plex.
I really think that if they fix the npcs imbalances and make plexing a pvp game instead of a game for alts then fw isn't so bad as it is currently set up.
Missions - they are fine the way they are but perhaps tone down the payouts to be more in line with plexing.
The big question is how to make plexing a pvp system. (I don't mind that missions are pve) It seems everyone identified the problem as people hiding and running plexes when no one is around. Why not make it so they can't hide with a notification system? It seems the obvious solution. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Zarnak Wulf
The Roaches
425
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 00:05:00 -
[39] - Quote
Having to constantly upgrade the systems to maintain your LP payout introduces alot more stress to the winning team.
'We upgraded it those systems last time. It's your turn.' 'You said you'd defend our systems during your time zone. They're all plexed down!' 'Someone needs to leave the fleet and head back to the rear systems.'
|
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
149
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 00:25:00 -
[40] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:Having to constantly upgrade the systems to maintain your LP payout introduces alot more stress to the winning team.
'We upgraded it those systems last time. It's your turn.' 'You said you'd defend our systems during your time zone. They're all plexed down!' 'Someone needs to leave the fleet and head back to the rear systems.'
At the same time, it wouldn't even allow the losing side the glimmer of hope that one day their LP might be worth something more. (But at least they wouldn't have high sec bears getting stuff cheaper than them).
IMO, the base LP store shouldn't get any worse than it was pre-inferno even if you own 0 systems. It should get better with better warzone control though. |
|
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2646
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 00:25:00 -
[41] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:Having to constantly upgrade the systems to maintain your LP payout introduces alot more stress to the winning team.
'We upgraded it those systems last time. It's your turn.' 'You said you'd defend our systems during your time zone. They're all plexed down!' 'Someone needs to leave the fleet and head back to the rear systems.'
Hahahahah this was my thoughts exactly. You want to add even more fun to the mix, move dockblocking to a system upgrade.
"GODDAMN IT VORDAK, IT WAS YOUR TURN TO UPGRADE THE IHUB TODAY!! NOW THOSE ****ING AMARR ARE ALL UP IN OUR **** AGAIN"
Both would do wonders for creating more conflict, and would also go a long way towards bleeding the rather obscene amount of LP floating around these days.... Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Shalassason
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 00:34:00 -
[42] - Quote
And on the topic of LP-multipliers: Wouldn't 80/100/140/220/380 be much better than the present 25/50/100/200/400 ?
P.S: @Cearain I've put the notification and plex thing into a new thread, I think it's very worth talking about |
Zarnak Wulf
The Roaches
425
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 01:32:00 -
[43] - Quote
Hans:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=127225&find=unread
The link button isn't working from my cell tonight. But the above were some ideas I had. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
488
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 01:39:00 -
[44] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:Having to constantly upgrade the systems to maintain your LP payout introduces alot more stress to the winning team.
'We upgraded it those systems last time. It's your turn.' 'You said you'd defend our systems during your time zone. They're all plexed down!' 'Someone needs to leave the fleet and head back to the rear systems.'
With this systems players will potentially be getting 40k lp per minor plex. They will be getting 120k lp for a mission. Plus that lp will not really be all that valuable. So throwing the lp around won't be that hard. I really don't know what to think of it tbh.
I think the current mechanics actually make for a wealthier faction war as a whole. I think the losing side should be able to develp strategies to get back to tier 5 themselves and then they will be able to cash out. But we still need see how this sorts itself out. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
subtle turtle
We Reach Around Situation: Normal
10
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 01:41:00 -
[45] - Quote
Good roundtable, interesting discussion. I know the discussion of LP being "worthless" for Amarr is true, I have about 500k LP for 24th that is barely enough to get a navy omen, and frankly I've stopped plexing entirely because of that.
What about possibly untying LP from the "button" mechanic and give LP rewards for NPC kills? So if I want to AFK a plex and grind system sov I can still do that, and gain warzone control, but to actually receive LP from the plex I would have to kill all the NPCs? |
BolsterBomb
State Protectorate Caldari State
107
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 02:26:00 -
[46] - Quote
I havent finished reading all the replies...Im actually playing :)
I think its cheesy from both fronts because the Amar have no interest in bettering their space. They are only interested in it for the isk instead of the mechanics.
The gals are NOT even close to the same boat as the Amar you simply want to use someone elses work to achieve free ships.
The mechanics allow it but its still cheesy .
You cant use the amar's excuse
And I disagree witth Amar coming over. Brig General of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation |
Taoist Dragon
Black Dragon Fighting Society The Devil's Tattoo
3
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 02:29:00 -
[47] - Quote
From my time in Cal Mil (before inferno) I didn't mind plexing tbh. It was easy enough to do in a pvp fit ship of the 'correct' size to enter the plex.
One thing have wondered about is why LP wasn't based on NPC kills or tags being handed in. The warzone control is important enough to get some LP but at a reduced amount as warzone control give other advantages i.e stations and repair/LPstore benefits.
Make it so tags give LP when handed in. And make it so players drop tags for their current rank when they are killed in pvp. This doesn't stop the plexer's in unfitted frigs but makes it so much less profitable than actually shooting something. The PVE aspect of plexing should stay imo as it allows more casual players get a bit of pvp as well, rather than trying to make FW a 'hardcore' pvp'er only activity.....
I don't get why the 'I only FW for pvp' crowd are complaining so much.....FW has never stopped you from pvp'ing at all, ever!
PVP is the backbone the FW is based on with pve sides (missions/plexing)
I have thought about returning to FW but the silly amount of unfit frigs plexing just makes me shake my head and look for my next target instead... |
Malakai Asamov
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
11
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 04:34:00 -
[48] - Quote
The tier system should not be applied to the whole faction.
It maybe better applied at corp level or an individual pilot level and require meeting several criteria on a regular basis to maintain a tier level. If you stop plexing/pvping/donating lp/mission running you/your corp/your alliance loose its tier level.
Why does someone elses actions that i have nothing to do with effect my "loyalty" to my faction? positivley or negativley.
Im in mini fw btw.
|
Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch Caldari State Capturing
159
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 05:55:00 -
[49] - Quote
only solution to make FW work is to remove all carebearing factors , remove special LP store, lower lp amount of plexes and missions.
and also remove docking denial, it does not add pvp it reduces it.
Question is , do you want to have easy ISK FARM or do you want to FIGHT ENDLESS WAR?
We can clearly see that LP store with changing offers does not work, everyone just changed to better side and are not willing to ruin good isk farm, by taking systems from minmatar.
But i am sure Hans will say things are fine, because he is on minmatar side. It does not matter if FW works or not.
Whole fw turned carebearing when Ankh managed to get lp store boost for FW
EDIT: maybe we have to wait until minmatar gets medal before we can see any changes. |
Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch Caldari State Capturing
19
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 06:17:00 -
[50] - Quote
chatgris wrote:And sure, we have plenty of space to plex, but guess what? Last I checked Caldari plexes almost double the nearest militia - even the dominating Minmatar. You have successfully leveraged your militias superior numbers to your advantage, and I don't see us being able to counter that anytime soon. In the meantime, I'll continue to resist but get LP worth a damn.
And when Amarr runs out of systems, then what? Every locust swarm heads to Black Rise and props up Gallente militia. Hell, I think this is already occurring and some people are even using a certain loophole in the system to further their gains.
So basicly we in Caldari militia leadership are taking some steps and with some luck and critical mass, we can use said loophole to make complete mockery of things, perhaps even finally kill FW for good or at least in it's current form...
|
|
Deen Wispa
Justified Chaos
290
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 06:28:00 -
[51] - Quote
All I know is that once the Winter expansion is released, people will need to accept that version of FW as the finale.
Knowing CCP, they will not be devoting any more time to FW beyond the winter expansion. They will be focusing their developing on other aspects of EVE. Just saying it now. Gallente FW Blog http://iamsheriff.com/blog C'est La Eve :) |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
488
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 12:02:00 -
[52] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote:Having to constantly upgrade the systems to maintain your LP payout introduces alot more stress to the winning team.
'We upgraded it those systems last time. It's your turn.' 'You said you'd defend our systems during your time zone. They're all plexed down!' 'Someone needs to leave the fleet and head back to the rear systems.'
Hahahahah this was my thoughts exactly. You want to add even more fun to the mix, move dockblocking to a system upgrade. "GODDAMN IT VORDAK, IT WAS YOUR TURN TO UPGRADE THE IHUB TODAY!! NOW THOSE ****ING AMARR ARE ALL UP IN OUR **** AGAIN" Both would do wonders for creating more conflict, and would also go a long way towards bleeding the rather obscene amount of LP floating around these days....
Realistically I don't think amarr would start basing out of a system if they new minmatar just had to throw some lp at the system to lock them out.
As far as flipping they consequences system.
I fear that this would ultimately lead to neither would upgrade their space at all. The tiers go so fast that you would have t constantly be throwing lp at it. We would still get lp for plexing but there would probably be even less interest in capturing systems. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Aylin Aslim
Stargate Systems Zombie Ninja Space Bears
14
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 12:25:00 -
[53] - Quote
Bad Messenger wrote:only solution to make FW work is to remove all carebearing factors , remove special LP store, lower lp amount of plexes and missions.
and also remove docking denial, it does not add pvp it reduces it.
Question is , do you want to have easy ISK FARM or do you want to FIGHT ENDLESS WAR?
We can clearly see that LP store with changing offers does not work, everyone just changed to better side and are not willing to ruin good isk farm, by taking systems from minmatar.
But i am sure Hans will say things are fine, because he is on minmatar side. It does not matter if FW works or not.
Whole fw turned carebearing when Ankh managed to get lp store boost for FW
EDIT: maybe we have to wait until minmatar gets medal before we can see any changes.
there should be a reason to get people out. This is eve, the hardest part of PVP is to find someone to fight.
there should be reasons to go out and right now plexing & lp is the reason.
Do you really want to fix FW and pvp? make FW affect highsec, give some penalties on bounties and loots or something else, then there will be pvp. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
488
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 12:41:00 -
[54] - Quote
Yuri Intaki wrote:chatgris wrote:And sure, we have plenty of space to plex, but guess what? Last I checked Caldari plexes almost double the nearest militia - even the dominating Minmatar. You have successfully leveraged your militias superior numbers to your advantage, and I don't see us being able to counter that anytime soon. In the meantime, I'll continue to resist but get LP worth a damn. And when Amarr runs out of systems, then what? Every locust swarm heads to Black Rise and props up Gallente militia. ].
Thats why instead of calling amarr who join caldari and continue to fight on the amarr front cheesy, you should encourage this. People joining caldari and fighting on the amarr front are not doing it to run caldari missions which does nothing but cheapen your store. Moreover the pvp itself doesn't really help much.
The main reason we would do this is to get better pay for plexing. By preventing a complete collapse and forcing minmatar to stay here we are helping you quite a bit.
Yuri Intaki wrote: Hell, I think this is already occurring and some people are even using a certain loophole in the system to further their gains.
So basicly we in Caldari militia leadership are taking some steps and with some luck and critical mass, we can use said loophole to make complete mockery of things, perhaps even finally kill FW for good or at least in it's current form..
I love guessing games.
Ok I don't think you will try to do what goons did.
Are you going to all join your alts corps in the minmatar and gallente and win all the caldari systems back?
Yuri Intaki wrote:Edit: As Bad Messenger said. When Ankh wanted to revamp lp store and boost missions, we in Caldari warned it would turn FW into a mission grinding fest. It happened and Caldari were blamed for suddenly exploiting system with farming grounds in Oicx & Ladi/Vifre. Then CCP wanted to turn plexes to loyalty point ATM's, again Caldari warned what would happen. CCP went ahead with it anyway and again, Caldari predictions more or less came true and again, Caldari get the blame for exploiting things since we can speed tank plexes and make LP (well duh...welcome to last decade again). See the pattern? If it concerns FW, ask a Caldari (= Damar Rocarion or Bad Messenger). Lots of people know little, few know quite much but in some regards there are only couple of guys who have full grasp of things. To make silly real life compramison, you would not ask G. W. Bush to explain you about history of the Middle-East, you would ask this man.
I certainly never blamed you for taking advantage of problems with fw. I, at least, agree with you that it is important that we play the game as rationally as possible. That is the only way ccp can identify flaws in the game. I agree that to have a game rely on scouts honor not to do certain things is agreeing to failure. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch Caldari State Capturing
20
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 13:12:00 -
[55] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Thats why instead of calling amarr who join caldari and continue to fight on the amarr front cheesy, you should encourage this. People joining caldari and fighting on the amarr front are not doing it to run caldari missions which does nothing but cheapen your store. Moreover the pvp itself doesn't really help much.
Heh, at no stage I was critical of Amarr militia members joining Caldari. I was critical of Minmatar plexers who are already salivating about the prospect of continuing their farming in Caldari occupied space. We gladly take more "blueshirts" to fight for the cause. Perhaps in couple of months FW is indeed Red vs Blue.
Sadly we in Caldari just might have to s.it on the sandbox and make everyone suffer (before our sandbox gets shitted on) since we refuse to go down quietly in face of overwhelming farmer numbers that is combined Gallente/Matar militia overwhelming our defenders since we cannot be sure they would not use the loophole which exists in system and which i'm sure some of their CEO's already know of. |
Gunthar X
Infinitus Odium
9
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 13:56:00 -
[56] - Quote
Warning Wall of Text: Mostly directed toward the CSM and CCP.
Ok FW comes down to this, it is a game not a job if I have to spend every waking moment I am online running plexes for nothing I get bored and stop playing.
This focus on PVE and Sov warfare has turned FW into a farmers dream and has in most cases destroyed the fun that was FW. LetGÇÖs assume that the intention behind CCPGÇÖs changes was to force more PVP by increasing the amount of hands on work needed to further your militiaGÇÖs goals. This is only relevant if people actually care about the militia they are a member of if I could care less if the Amarr own a single system how would this new group of mechanics force me to help? For example, 90% of the GÇ£RPGÇ¥ players for the Amarr have either left or are overwhelmed by the farming alts of the MinniGÇÖs and even farming alts of the Amarr so they are either regulated to beating their heads against a wall day in and day out or leaving to do something more fun.
I will state it again EVE is a game not a job if you want people to care about FW then make it rewarding to PVP in FW and kill your enemy instead of making it profitable for those who can use a 1 month old alt to orbit a button and make billions. It should be an epic struggle between factions not an epic struggle to cash out your horded gold so you can show off your wallet. As for the Caldari militia they have had the advantage of an army of farmer alts which has allowed their mainline PVP groups and leadership to worry about strategic planning instead of spending days on end plexing down a ton of systems so the current system is working out well for them at the moment however with the fall of the Amarr the combined group of the Gallente PVP corps and the Minni farming alts will quickly overwhelm the Caldari through sheer numbers. If you want to counter that and show the FW community that you actually care about it then reverse this 4X LP cost crap so the Amarr can at least buy ships and reset their space so they actually stand a chance, unless it was your intention to ensure the minniGÇÖs had a massive advantage on patch day.
There have been countless threads showing how the Amarr are at a massive disadvantage in numbers, ship effectiveness, space design, and plex NPCGÇÖs yet its 100% their fault they have less than 10 systems. While I do agree that there are groups within the Amarr militia that could make a huge difference in the course of that war they have chosen to enjoy their FW experience and the rest of FW is punished for it resulting in the Minni militia being able to hit Tier 5 almost at will and the farmers to rake in billions of ISK.
Once again EVE is a game and meant to be fun not a job so if you want to fix FW take the PVE core away from it and make PVP and fun rule the experience not a savings and loan bank filled with government bailout money. If FW players wanted Sov battles and blob warfare they would have joined a 0.0 alliance but they didnGÇÖt they joined their militia so they could have fun and fight the good fight for their militia.
Countless times before the latest patch the player base told CCP that this was a bad idea and that this would happen and they were ignored, many people stood up and told you that this would only result in exploitation of the mechanics but were dismissed as doomsayers. Now we are here with the MinniGÇÖs taking the majority of Amarr space before patch night and beating them down further with farmers, and the Caldari are next on the list for the farmers and CCP cannot fathom why this happened.
EVE is OUR game not just CCPGÇÖs game. I understand that CCP has a vision and an overall goal but we play this game daily, we see how to exploit CCP decisions, and we pass that information along to you through our CSMGÇÖs yet the only people ever listened to are those who will benefit from the changes you want to make while those of us who actually care about things such as FW are ignored as doomsayers until time and again they are proven correct. Stop putting your head in your GÇ£sandboxGÇ¥ and start listening to those people who care just as much if not more for your game as you do. We operate in your sandbox daily and we know how to game your system so when we tell you that if you make this decision this is how people are going to exploit it to make money then listen to us not those individuals who have zero interest in things such as FW.
Yes I am aware I am not currently in the Militia. |
BolsterBomb
State Protectorate Caldari State
107
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 13:58:00 -
[57] - Quote
Gunthar X wrote:
Yes I am aware I am not currently in the Militia.
You have just joined that annoying Cerasian guy
Brig General of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
488
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 14:49:00 -
[58] - Quote
BolsterBomb wrote:Gunthar X wrote:
Yes I am aware I am not currently in the Militia.
You have just joined that annoying Cerasian guy
How do you get so much misinformation?
You are also the guy who posted how disappointed you were that hans was not leading the amarr to victory. Just saying.
Soon you will be on the same team as that cheesy Cerasian guy. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
488
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 14:53:00 -
[59] - Quote
Yuri Intaki wrote: ...Sadly we in Caldari just might have to s.it on the sandbox and make everyone suffer (before our sandbox gets shitted on) since we refuse to go down quietly in face of overwhelming farmer numbers that is combined Gallente/Matar militia LP printing machine since we cannot be sure they would not use the loophole which exists in system and which i'm sure some of their CEO's already know of.
If you are trolling, I admit I am biting. I am very curious what the loophole is. I am aware of some things that some might consider a loophole. But I don't think they are anything that big of a deal. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch Caldari State Capturing
20
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 15:00:00 -
[60] - Quote
Cearain wrote:If you are trolling, I admit I am biting. I am very curious what the loophole is. I am aware of some things that some might consider a loophole. But I don't think they are anything that big of a deal.
Not trolling, just admitting there is a massive screw up which CCP has not spotted (surprising, eh?) and which might result in last shreds of FW going down the s.itters. |
|
Generals4
968
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 15:04:00 -
[61] - Quote
Yuri Intaki wrote:Cearain wrote:If you are trolling, I admit I am biting. I am very curious what the loophole is. I am aware of some things that some might consider a loophole. But I don't think they are anything that big of a deal. Not trolling, just admitting there is a massive screw up which CCP has not spotted (surprising, eh?) and which might result in last shreds of FW going down the s.itters.
Can it be used for the ultimate caldari victory? -Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily. |
Princess Nexxala
Quantum Cats Syndicate
73
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 15:38:00 -
[62] - Quote
To all those that thinks its cheesy we are in matar and fighting on the gal front.....boo ******* hoo
Its called adapting, you gallente only pilots don't understand it, and I don't expect you to. But at least respect the kb and the plexing we do. Is sexy time? |
Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch Caldari State Capturing
20
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 15:46:00 -
[63] - Quote
Generals4 wrote:Can it be used for the ultimate caldari victory?
Yes. Unfortunately unlike iconic flag picture, you would need settle into a image of Amarr/Gallente/Minmatar flags buried in a ton of horse manure with Caldari flag flying on top of the said manure pile.... |
Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch Caldari State Capturing
20
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 17:47:00 -
[64] - Quote
Aylin Aslim wrote:Do you really want to fix FW and pvp? make FW affect highsec, give some penalties on bounties and loots or something else, then there will be pvp.
Seeing that I constantly chase your corporations permarepping plex incursus, I find this whole has clearly been farted out of your arse and is thus utterly hilarious.
|
Generals4
968
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 18:13:00 -
[65] - Quote
Yuri Intaki wrote:Generals4 wrote:Can it be used for the ultimate caldari victory? Yes. Unfortunately unlike iconic flag picture, you would need settle into a image of Amarr/Gallente/Minmatar flags buried in a ton of horse manure with Caldari flag flying on top of the said manure pile....
Why wasn't i informed we had a tool to produces lots of manure.
But yah, i'm still waiting for the huge fix FW needs. -Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
489
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 01:22:00 -
[66] - Quote
This was truly an excellent discussion. I was so impressed I have promoted this discussion in this thread.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1613053#post1613053 Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Zarnak Wulf
The Roaches
431
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 01:52:00 -
[67] - Quote
I liked the proposal to eliminate missions. They made sense when they were the only way to get LP. Now they're redundant and contribute nothing to the war effort. They also create LP out of thin air. If FW is going to be self sustaining- there needs to be some scarcity of resources. If you have only six systems in your war zone to plex, or if you have to go 20 jumps to plex, you're going to defend your system upgrades alot more fiercely.
|
Major Killz
Chaotic Tranquility
42
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 02:38:00 -
[68] - Quote
I have to agree. Removing missioning is the way to go. Now that pilots are able to gain Lp by doing faction warfare plex's. Might even be wise to increase the lp pay out if ccp goes this route and give 1 forth the payout for doing defensive plexing.
SUPPORTED! |
sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade Lost Obsession
244
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 03:07:00 -
[69] - Quote
I would like the removal of the NPC corp so people joining FW had to do so with a player corp of their own or one already in.
I would also like standing requirement set to at lease 2.0.
Sure give people LP for Defending space, why not as unless players live in a system no ones defending them.
I'd like to be able to dock in none FW stations.
I'd like upgrades that don't smack of "OMG what the **** can we give them as upgrades" cause the ones atm are awful.
I'd like some Losec space for Angels, Sep, Sansha, and Guristas so peoples could become proper pirates.
Anyone expecting anything like this to actually come? |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
489
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 03:38:00 -
[70] - Quote
Major Killz wrote:I have to agree. Removing missioning is the way to go. Now that pilots are able to gain Lp by doing faction warfare plex's. Might even be wise to increase the lp pay out if ccp goes this route and give 1 forth the payout for doing defensive plexing.
SUPPORTED!
I don't recall removing missions being presenented by anyone on the panel.
Its a bad idea. FW mission should be toned down so they are on par with plexing but they are actually the only decent way to create missions in low sec.
Payment for defensive plexing might be just as bad an idea. They are both bad. Its tough to say which is worse.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Zarnak Wulf
The Roaches
431
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 04:17:00 -
[71] - Quote
They were all over the place on the panel with missions. There was someone who went off on them as a leftover that didn't fit in with the new system. A few people quite honestly didn't like them. And one person did push for them to be deleted. It wasn't dwelt on for long but the point was made.
Going through the war zone over the past few days you would find mission runners in just about every system in their damn stealth bombers. Some systems were 4-5 jumps from any front. You want them to keep on? It's an all you can eat LP buffet with no risk.
The Minmatar have 65 systems to defend. 80% of them should not be hovering in a handful of systems around Kamela. There are quite a few us offensive plexing down the upgrades in the rear systems. But they don't care because LP grows on trees for them and they can spike war zone control at a whim. |
Major Killz
Chaotic Tranquility
43
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 04:40:00 -
[72] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Major Killz wrote:I have to agree. Removing missioning is the way to go. Now that pilots are able to gain Lp by doing faction warfare plex's. Might even be wise to increase the lp pay out if ccp goes this route and give 1 forth the payout for doing defensive plexing.
SUPPORTED! I don't recall removing missions being presenented by anyone on the panel. Its a bad idea. FW mission should be toned down so they are on par with plexing but they are actually the only decent way to create missions in low sec. Payment for defensive plexing might be just as bad an idea. They are both bad. Its tough to say which is worse.
MIssions require time to complete. Is the aforementioned statement correct? Plexing requires time to complete. What about that statement?
If so, then its the same ret@rded and boring sh!t. I see no difference between both activities.
Ok!
Throw in Incursion like difficulty in some plex. Those plex move the needle alot. Thow in plex that can be done solo. The aforementioned plex only move the needle a little. Throw in Plex for defense of any movement of the needle against the current holder of the system. Give one fourth the payout and increase the time it takes to defend. Instead of attacking a bunker. The bunker goes offline and resets. Now your milltia has the benifit of owning the system. Whatever that may be v0v
Whatever, it can be done. I've never made isk from pve in this game (for the most part). I've only ever made isk from pvp and market jujitsu. I don't care how you get your isk. I have bank. How you make it work is up to whomever. Point is. It should bring something different and bring alot more losses more than likely. Which means more engagements will happen and increased risk v0v
f*ck it! |
Lebaneur
Tribal Core Defiant Legacy
8
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 11:09:00 -
[73] - Quote
Thanks for an interesting talk. While listening the part about NPCs in the plexes I got an idea that might be worth considering.
How about the NPC loose interest in on ships that are not within capture range - you can make the rats harder and make AFK plexing impossible but as soon as you leave the button they leave you alone. That would leave plexes open for PVP as well.
PVP in plexes does not happen on button range (for the exception of last few seconds), so the rats would not imbalance the fight.
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Bengal Bob
Angry Mustellid Iron Oxide.
58
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 13:37:00 -
[74] - Quote
Yuri Intaki wrote:Cearain wrote:If you are trolling, I admit I am biting. I am very curious what the loophole is. I am aware of some things that some might consider a loophole. But I don't think they are anything that big of a deal. Not trolling, just admitting there is a massive screw up which CCP has not spotted (surprising, eh?) and which might result in last shreds of FW going down the s.itters.
If you are aware of any exploits or loopholes you have a responsibility to report it to CCP. If they still do nothing, then post details on the forums and ask publicly for them to deal with it.
Just sitting around claiming Gallente and Minmatar are probably using it because it exists is silly. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2682
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 13:47:00 -
[75] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:They were all over the place on the panel with missions. There was someone who went off on them as a leftover that didn't fit in with the new system. A few people quite honestly didn't like them. And one person did push for them to be deleted. It wasn't dwelt on for long but the point was made.
Going through the war zone over the past few days you would find mission runners in just about every system in their damn stealth bombers. Some systems were 4-5 jumps from any front. You want them to keep on? It's an all you can eat LP buffet with no risk.
The Minmatar have 65 systems to defend. 80% of them should not be hovering in a handful of systems around Kamela. There are quite a few us offensive plexing down the upgrades in the rear systems. But they don't care because LP grows on trees for them and they can spike war zone control at a whim.
The reason the Minmatar are hovering around Kamela is they like the idea of taking down your last staging systems. Strategically that's the way to win the war. Kourm, Huola etc are vital forward bases for putting pressure on your staging systems. If you wanted to draw minmatar attention away from missioning then you need to organize a serious threat against Kourm that risks locking people out of their ships and equipment in the stations there.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedomInferno Wardecs - Shoot Goons for FREE $300,000 dollars :(-á |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2682
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 13:54:00 -
[76] - Quote
Bengal Bob wrote:Yuri Intaki wrote:Cearain wrote:If you are trolling, I admit I am biting. I am very curious what the loophole is. I am aware of some things that some might consider a loophole. But I don't think they are anything that big of a deal. Not trolling, just admitting there is a massive screw up which CCP has not spotted (surprising, eh?) and which might result in last shreds of FW going down the s.itters. If you are aware of any exploits or loopholes you have a responsibility to report it to CCP. If they still do nothing, then post details on the forums and ask publicly for them to deal with it. Just sitting around claiming Gallente and Minmatar are probably using it because it exists is silly.
I'm guessing they are murkily referring to the fact that Gallente loyalists in the Minmatar can go and plex Caldari systems in Black Rise and get paid minmatar LPs (good loyalty point store) for opposing territorial control there.
By the same measure Amarr loyalists could join the Caldari and stay in Bleaks / Metropolis and get paid good Caldari LP's for plexing against minmatar systems.
In a way the "massive screw up" is probably that the FW system we have now means its more sensible for a losing side to swap sides to their winning ally and continue plexing in the same space so they get more valuable LP points for their labour.
In the example above say an Amarrian corp skips to the Caldari and plexes down 4 minors in Arzad. They are getting 16x more LP value for doing the same thing that a loyalist Amarrian corp that stayed Amarrian would get for doing 4 minors in Lantorn. (tier 4 caldari/ tier 1 amarr) The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedomInferno Wardecs - Shoot Goons for FREE $300,000 dollars :(-á |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
489
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 14:48:00 -
[77] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:They were all over the place on the panel with missions. There was someone who went off on them as a leftover that didn't fit in with the new system. A few people quite honestly didn't like them. And one person did push for them to be deleted. It wasn't dwelt on for long but the point was made.
Going through the war zone over the past few days you would find mission runners in just about every system in their damn stealth bombers. Some systems were 4-5 jumps from any front. You want them to keep on? It's an all you can eat LP buffet with no risk.
The Minmatar have 65 systems to defend. 80% of them should not be hovering in a handful of systems around Kamela. There are quite a few us offensive plexing down the upgrades in the rear systems. But they don't care because LP grows on trees for them and they can spike war zone control at a whim.
Yeah you are probably right someone may have said that but I wasn't sure if he was serious or just expressing dissatisfaction with people who come to faction war to farm missions.
After thinking about it perhaps it would be a good idea to eliminate missions altogether.
My main concern is that if you do eliminate them then the side with all the systems will then cry for lp for defensive plexing. If ccp does that then this game will just be null sec "farms and fields" garbage.
However, if they removed missions and still didn't give lp for defensive plexing then by winning you would cut most of your sources of income. Which I actually think is ok. That would mean that only the people who contributed to getting you there would be able to cash out at the higher tier! People who pile on the winning side after its winning will gain little. This would definitely help provide more balance that faction war needs.
Instead of everyone joining the winning side the losing side would naturally be the one getting new recruits because your main source of getting lp to cash out is by doing offensive plexing.
The side defending would still have an incentive to keep fighting to hold the systems as long as possible. Because they will make more isk if they have several cashouts based on market changes instead of one big one where they are left to guess. Plus they will still be picking up some lp from systems that are still owned by the losing side and through pvp. But yeah mainly through pvp.
So hopefully they would get a big influx of money and use it to try to fight off the offensive plexers. Instead of waiting for them to finish their offensive plexes and then come out to do a defensive plex after all the wartargets are gone and they can do it without pvp. The smart factions would aim to flip systems in dramatic fashion so they can reach tier 5 instead of always stagnating at tier 3-4.
I am not sure this would work when you can join any of the four militias but I am pretty sure it would.
But anyway if they keep the missions:
The fact that missions don't contribute to sov is a good thing. If they just keep doing missions then the systems will become vulnerable or close to vulnerable. Once we have enough of them vulnerable or close to vulnerable to get to tier 5 then we can start flipping them ourselves. I think this may be how this is intended to work.
That said, missions shouldn't pay more than plexing. It should only be on par with plexing. CCP originally said they were going to make plexing pay better than missions - they did not.
I don't mind that faction war offers some pvp (plexing-or at least it should be pvp) and pve (missions) mechanics. I think they did a good job with the pve - missions. They really just need to tone it a bit. The faction war missions I believe are the best idea for low sec missions that anyone ever came up with. Maybe make it so they get 2/3s the lp or something. Or eliminate them altogether but if you do then do not start giving lp for defensive plexing.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Thomas Kreshant
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
116
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 14:50:00 -
[78] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Bengal Bob wrote:Yuri Intaki wrote:Cearain wrote:If you are trolling, I admit I am biting. I am very curious what the loophole is. I am aware of some things that some might consider a loophole. But I don't think they are anything that big of a deal. Not trolling, just admitting there is a massive screw up which CCP has not spotted (surprising, eh?) and which might result in last shreds of FW going down the s.itters. If you are aware of any exploits or loopholes you have a responsibility to report it to CCP. If they still do nothing, then post details on the forums and ask publicly for them to deal with it. Just sitting around claiming Gallente and Minmatar are probably using it because it exists is silly. I'm guessing they are murkily referring to the fact that Gallente loyalists in the Minmatar can go and plex Caldari systems in Black Rise and get paid minmatar LPs (good loyalty point store) for opposing territorial control there. By the same measure Amarr loyalists could join the Caldari and stay in Bleaks / Metropolis and get paid good Caldari LP's for plexing against minmatar systems. In a way the "massive screw up" is probably that the FW system we have now means its more sensible for a losing side to swap sides to their winning ally and continue plexing in the same space so they get more valuable LP points for their labour. In the example above say an Amarrian corp skips to the Caldari and plexes down 4 minors in Arzad. They are getting 16x more LP value for doing the same thing that a loyalist Amarrian corp that stayed Amarrian would get for doing 4 minors in Lantorn. (tier 4 caldari/ tier 1 amarr)
I thought someone said you can't shoot your allies iHub which in that case as you'll not ever take your local systems eventually you'll just end up stalemating the zone with systems stuck and vuln never flipped and never dplexed back down.
It would make more sense to swap to Caldari and then go to Caldari space anything else still requires a healthy FW side willing to work for bad LP and willing to flip systems back and forth. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
489
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 14:53:00 -
[79] - Quote
Major Killz wrote:Cearain wrote:Major Killz wrote:I have to agree. Removing missioning is the way to go. Now that pilots are able to gain Lp by doing faction warfare plex's. Might even be wise to increase the lp pay out if ccp goes this route and give 1 forth the payout for doing defensive plexing.
SUPPORTED! I don't recall removing missions being presenented by anyone on the panel. Its a bad idea. FW mission should be toned down so they are on par with plexing but they are actually the only decent way to create missions in low sec. Payment for defensive plexing might be just as bad an idea. They are both bad. Its tough to say which is worse. MIssions require time to complete. Is the aforementioned statement correct? Plexing requires time to complete. What about that statement? If so, then its the same ret@rded and boring sh!t. I see no difference between both activities. Ok!!
There is an important difference. Plexing helps your miltia maintain its tiers. Missions do not.
Your point about both taking time is correct though and also important. If a side spends time running missions instead of plexing they will lose sovereignty.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2682
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 14:57:00 -
[80] - Quote
Thomas Kreshant wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Bengal Bob wrote:Yuri Intaki wrote:Cearain wrote:If you are trolling, I admit I am biting. I am very curious what the loophole is. I am aware of some things that some might consider a loophole. But I don't think they are anything that big of a deal. Not trolling, just admitting there is a massive screw up which CCP has not spotted (surprising, eh?) and which might result in last shreds of FW going down the s.itters. If you are aware of any exploits or loopholes you have a responsibility to report it to CCP. If they still do nothing, then post details on the forums and ask publicly for them to deal with it. Just sitting around claiming Gallente and Minmatar are probably using it because it exists is silly. I'm guessing they are murkily referring to the fact that Gallente loyalists in the Minmatar can go and plex Caldari systems in Black Rise and get paid minmatar LPs (good loyalty point store) for opposing territorial control there. By the same measure Amarr loyalists could join the Caldari and stay in Bleaks / Metropolis and get paid good Caldari LP's for plexing against minmatar systems. In a way the "massive screw up" is probably that the FW system we have now means its more sensible for a losing side to swap sides to their winning ally and continue plexing in the same space so they get more valuable LP points for their labour. In the example above say an Amarrian corp skips to the Caldari and plexes down 4 minors in Arzad. They are getting 16x more LP value for doing the same thing that a loyalist Amarrian corp that stayed Amarrian would get for doing 4 minors in Lantorn. (tier 4 caldari/ tier 1 amarr) I thought someone said you can't shoot your allies iHub which in that case as you'll not ever take your local systems eventually you'll just end up stalemating the zone with systems stuck and vuln never flipped and never dplexed back down. It would make more sense to swap to Caldari and then go to Caldari space anything else still requires a healthy FW side willing to work for bad LP and willing to flip systems back and forth.
I've no idea to be honest on the IHUB issue. But I do know its still apparently possible to plex (and get paid for plexing) when a system is in vulnerable state so I guess it wouldn't make much actual difference to the "strategy".
Anyway this is what I imagine Damar's alt is going on about.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedomInferno Wardecs - Shoot Goons for FREE $300,000 dollars :(-á |
|
Zarnak Wulf
The Roaches
432
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 14:59:00 -
[81] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:
The reason the Minmatar are hovering around Kamela is they like the idea of taking down your last staging systems. Strategically that's the way to win the war. Kourm, Huola etc are vital forward bases for putting pressure on your staging systems. If you wanted to draw minmatar attention away from missioning then you need to organize a serious threat against Kourm that risks locking people out of their ships and equipment in the stations there.
This completely dances around what I was saying. Tearing down your upgrades should be a 'credible' threat. It isn't as the game works right now. In the podcast it was suggested that the LP payout be affected by the tier system rather then the LP store be determined by it. That means at tier 5 you would make 40k LP for running a minor. It also has other nice effects. There is no 'spiking.' We tear you down to level 3 and you feel it immediately. Less LP for what you do.
You also point to tech moons and nullsec and ask why FW should be addressed if that's messed up. My daughter does the same strategy in real life. So let me address you in the same way as I would a 9 year old using the oldest crap in the book.
'We're not talking about Johnny Goon. We're talking about you.'
There should be some real hand-wringing about how the LP you earn is spent. There is none. If we got rid of mission running what would that do? If we paid plexing Caldari plexes with Gallente LP what would that do? I personally wouldn't mind seeing LP for defensive plexing at that point in time. Most of the winning side's isk would be made during the conquest. Once it is over or almost over - the gravy train would dry up. People would drift off. The losing team could start to push. The winning team would have to rely on it's upgraded systems to make isk. Ideas like this are how you design a closed system. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
489
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 15:05:00 -
[82] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Bengal Bob wrote:Yuri Intaki wrote:Cearain wrote:If you are trolling, I admit I am biting. I am very curious what the loophole is. I am aware of some things that some might consider a loophole. But I don't think they are anything that big of a deal. Not trolling, just admitting there is a massive screw up which CCP has not spotted (surprising, eh?) and which might result in last shreds of FW going down the s.itters. If you are aware of any exploits or loopholes you have a responsibility to report it to CCP. If they still do nothing, then post details on the forums and ask publicly for them to deal with it. Just sitting around claiming Gallente and Minmatar are probably using it because it exists is silly. I'm guessing they are murkily referring to the fact that Gallente loyalists in the Minmatar can go and plex Caldari systems in Black Rise and get paid minmatar LPs (good loyalty point store) for opposing territorial control there. By the same measure Amarr loyalists could join the Caldari and stay in Bleaks / Metropolis and get paid good Caldari LP's for plexing against minmatar systems. In a way the "massive screw up" is probably that the FW system we have now means its more sensible for a losing side to swap sides to their winning ally and continue plexing in the same space so they get more valuable LP points for their labour. In the example above say an Amarrian corp skips to the Caldari and plexes down 4 minors in Arzad. They are getting 16x more LP value for doing the same thing that a loyalist Amarrian corp that stayed Amarrian would get for doing 4 minors in Lantorn. (tier 4 caldari/ tier 1 amarr)
I doubt this is what they mean. Its not really a "screw up." I think its fine to work like that. If they leave caldari space the gallente will gain ground on them. And their caldari lp will not be worth as much. If they are in minmatar space making progress they may want to flip over to amarr becasue the amarr lp will be worth allot after they start massively flipping systems.
The reason I am glad we switched over to caldari is because amarr 1)kept flipping systems as soon as they could allowing the minmatar to flip them back immediately making tons of isk 2) we were mainly doing plexing in small localized areas that were easy for the minmatar blob to sit in and plex up again and 3) kept wasting too much time defensive plexing which again only feeds minmatar.
If we would have taken all the plexing time we spent on defensive plexing and instead only did offensive plexing throughout the zone I think the space would be allot more contested and amarr would be closer to hitting tier five. But I do agree that involves some speculation on my part, and I do agree minmatar probably would have gotten a medal. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
489
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 15:12:00 -
[83] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:[quote=Jade Constantine]
The reason the Minmatar are hovering around Kamela is they like the idea of taking down your last staging systems. Strategically that's the way to win the war. Kourm, Huola etc are vital forward bases for putting pressure on your staging systems. If you wanted to draw minmatar attention away from missioning then you need to organize a serious threat against Kourm that risks locking people out of their ships and equipment in the stations there.
Bad advice from our enemy. Not surprising.
I don't blame you for trying though.
If you continue to mission while we plex all your back water systems you will soon find you either have to do a bunch of defensive plexing for no lp or you will find we will be striking at tier 5.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2682
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 15:13:00 -
[84] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:[ This completely dances around what I was saying. Tearing down your upgrades should be a 'credible' threat. It isn't as the game works right now. In the podcast it was suggested that the LP payout be affected by the tier system rather then the LP store be determined by it. That means at tier 5 you would make 40k LP for running a minor. It also has other nice effects. There is no 'spiking.' We tear you down to level 3 and you feel it immediately. Less LP for what you do.
Well I think its a suggestion that has some merit. I'd also like the upgrades to systems to be more interesting in and of themselves so they were worth defending (rather than simply being a short term cashout thing) at the moment the upgrades are really boring and it doesn't make much actual difference if a system you stage out of is 5 or zero. Somebody suggested some kind of 0.0 style rat farming upgrades as a throwaway comment in some thread - but at least that would give people a reason to want to sustain their tier outside of cashout time.
Zarnak Wulf wrote:You also point to tech moons and nullsec and ask why FW should be addressed if that's messed up. My daughter does the same strategy in real life. So let me address you in the same way as I would a 9 year old using the oldest crap in the book. 'We're not talking about Johnny Goon. We're talking about you.'
Well say I've got two daughters (9 and 17).. one of them is pouring cornflakes into my shoes and the other one is using my credit card to order $1000 pants on the internet. I know which critical issue I'm going to prioritize the resolution of!
The thing I was addressing really was this "shock horror FW is making billionaires!" line of tabloid argumentation that Poetic was producing in his blog. I think that's akin to RL tabloid scare stories about benefit cheats and low level working joe graft while ignoring the corruption of our politicians and financial systems. Its a pretty crude form of manipulation.
Zarnak Wulf wrote:There should be some real hand-wringing about how the LP you earn is spent. There is none. If we got rid of mission running what would that do? If we paid plexing Caldari plexes with Gallente LP what would that do? I personally wouldn't mind seeing LP for defensive plexing at that point in time. Most of the winning side's isk would be made during the conquest. Once it is over or almost over - the gravy train would dry up. People would drift off. The losing team could start to push. The winning team would have to rely on it's upgraded systems to make isk. Ideas like this are how you design a closed system.
Well I appreciate the intention to theorycraft solutions - its much better than simply moaning about things.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedomInferno Wardecs - Shoot Goons for FREE $300,000 dollars :(-á |
AndromacheDarkstar
Phantom Brigade Inc.
60
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 15:17:00 -
[85] - Quote
Just finished listening to the podcast, finally something in size to compete with lost in eve. Overall it was pretty interesting to listen to all you guys giving us your thoughts on the current state of affairs. Being one of those thats fairly new to FW im still wide eyed but i can see some of the flaws in the way things work.
First off i have to say that FW is the most fun anyone i know has ever had in eve, lots of fights and lots of good people generally getting on well and helping eachother out. I do have a problem with the stance allot of you took towards the idea of "Farming", as far as i can tell plexing is one of if not the most important part of the FW system as it stands and i think more people are actually playing the system as its intended rather than "farming", it seemed like you ignored those people and thats doing them a diservice.
Some great ideas did come up, one of the best was changing the bonus from lower LP prices in stores to altering the LP made from the various FW activites, as far as i can tell this would solve the Issue of the LP i have so far earnt not being that usefull, fights are great but to fight you need ships and its damn hard to make any isk in FW. I come from the amarr side of things and although we are losing and deserve to be in a worse position Minnie pilots are going to find themselves fresh out of targets one day as everyones isk dries up.
The big discussion about plexing itself was also interesting, i like plexing as it is it does provide some fights and isnt that boring, i was wondering if it would be better if the buttons went down quicker, gave less of an infulence and provided less LP to make things a bit mroe interesting.
Other idea i had while listening was to have a warp out gate from PLEX sites. You cant warp out any other way than through the gate, im pretty sure this would end up forcing more PVP and making the risk allot greater for people trying to plex all day.
Last but not least i do also think its important to change over the way defensive plexing works ASAP, as you guys said there is just no reason to D PLEX, as far as i can see the only way to change this is to introduce an LP reward.
Andro |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
489
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 15:51:00 -
[86] - Quote
AndromacheDarkstar wrote:Just finished listening to the podcast, finally something in size to compete with lost in eve. Overall it was pretty interesting to listen to all you guys giving us your thoughts on the current state of affairs. Being one of those thats fairly new to FW im still wide eyed but i can see some of the flaws in the way things work.
First off i have to say that FW is the most fun anyone i know has ever had in eve, lots of fights and lots of good people generally getting on well and helping eachother out. I do have a problem with the stance allot of you took towards the idea of "Farming", as far as i can tell plexing is one of if not the most important part of the FW system as it stands and i think more people are actually playing the system as its intended rather than "farming", it seemed like you ignored those people and thats doing them a diservice.
Some great ideas did come up, one of the best was changing the bonus from lower LP prices in stores to altering the LP made from the various FW activites, as far as i can tell this would solve the Issue of the LP i have so far earnt not being that usefull, fights are great but to fight you need ships and its damn hard to make any isk in FW. I come from the amarr side of things and although we are losing and deserve to be in a worse position Minnie pilots are going to find themselves fresh out of targets one day as everyones isk dries up.
The big discussion about plexing itself was also interesting, i like plexing as it is it does provide some fights and isnt that boring, i was wondering if it would be better if the buttons went down quicker, gave less of an infulence and provided less LP to make things a bit mroe interesting.
Other idea i had while listening was to have a warp out gate from PLEX sites. You cant warp out any other way than through the gate, im pretty sure this would end up forcing more PVP and making the risk allot greater for people trying to plex all day.
Last but not least i do also think its important to change over the way defensive plexing works ASAP, as you guys said there is just no reason to D PLEX, as far as i can see the only way to change this is to introduce an LP reward.
Andro
I would rather ccp removed the ability to defensive plex altogether rather than boost it. If you want to protect a system you should have to get out there an prevent the offensive plexers from capturing a plex in the first place - in other words through pvp. The idea that you can just let them run a plex and then wait until all the wartargets leave so you can run the defensive plex is terrible. The winning side is the side that has more time to kill as opposed to the side that is better at pvp.
But your other ideas are pretty good. I like the idea of shorter timers on plexes. Maybe all of them cut to 2/3s. I would leave the same amount of vp going to flipping the system as I would prefer a shorter flip time. But if people want the shorter flip time that is fine.
The thing is I will often run a plex in a system with allot of wartargets hoping to get a fight. And then when the timer has about 7 minutes left I see they all leave system. Well the question is do I sit on that button or go look for pvp? I usually go look for pvp. If the plex timers were shorter I would probably at least finish the plex.
However if ccp ever gives us a notification when plexes are taken I would like the timers to remain about the same amount of time. So people will have time to react to the notification. (see my sig if you don't know what I am talking about with notifications)
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
AndromacheDarkstar
Phantom Brigade Inc.
60
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 16:02:00 -
[87] - Quote
"I would rather ccp removed the ability to defensive plex altogether rather than boost it. If you want to protect a system you should have to get out there an prevent the offensive plexers from capturing a plex in the first place - in other words through pvp. The idea that you can just let them run a plex and then wait until all the wartargets leave so you can run the defensive plex is terrible. The winning side is the side that has more time to kill as opposed to the side that is better at pvp.
But your other ideas are pretty good. I like the idea of shorter timers on plexes. Maybe all of them cut to 2/3s. I would leave the same amount of vp going to flipping the system as I would prefer a shorter flip time. But if people want the shorter flip time that is fine.
The thing is I will often run a plex in a system with allot of wartargets hoping to get a fight. And then when the timer has about 7 minutes left I see they all leave system. Well the question is do I sit on that button or go look for pvp? I usually go look for pvp. If the plex timers were shorter I would probably at least finish the plex.
However if ccp ever gives us a notification when plexes are taken I would like the timers to remain about the same amount of time. So people will have time to react to the notification. (see my sig if you don't know what I am talking about with notifications) "
You make a really good point about defensive plexing, i hadnt even considered that as an idea but that would defiantely force people to be more active in PVP, i do wonder if it would make it too hard to be able to defend a system though. Im with you on the leaving the button situation and i think shorter times would help that along allot.
I read your ideas about the notifications and im not 100% convinced there, maybe it would be better if a notification is up on the system control viewer to to show you what sites are up although we kind of already have that with the overview.
With regards ot NPCS i dont view them as too much of a problem, maybe have htem leave if an opposing player pulls into the plex (not sure how difficult this is to implememnt). Also if your introducing the outgate idea i propsed then your gonig to get allot more pvp anyway and so people wpuld be better prepared for it and will have got rid of or moved out of the way of NPCS before the fight starts . If you remove NPCs completely it will make plexing far too simple. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
490
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 16:23:00 -
[88] - Quote
AndromacheDarkstar wrote:"I would rather ccp removed the ability to defensive plex altogether rather than boost it. If you want to protect a system you should have to get out there an prevent the offensive plexers from capturing a plex in the first place - in other words through pvp. The idea that you can just let them run a plex and then wait until all the wartargets leave so you can run the defensive plex is terrible. The winning side is the side that has more time to kill as opposed to the side that is better at pvp.
But your other ideas are pretty good. I like the idea of shorter timers on plexes. Maybe all of them cut to 2/3s. I would leave the same amount of vp going to flipping the system as I would prefer a shorter flip time. But if people want the shorter flip time that is fine.
The thing is I will often run a plex in a system with allot of wartargets hoping to get a fight. And then when the timer has about 7 minutes left I see they all leave system. Well the question is do I sit on that button or go look for pvp? I usually go look for pvp. If the plex timers were shorter I would probably at least finish the plex.
However if ccp ever gives us a notification when plexes are taken I would like the timers to remain about the same amount of time. So people will have time to react to the notification. (see my sig if you don't know what I am talking about with notifications) "AndromacheDarkstar wrote: You make a really good point about defensive plexing, i hadnt even considered that as an idea but that would defiantely force people to be more active in PVP, i do wonder if it would make it too hard to be able to defend a system though. .. .
.
Yes it would make it too hard to defend a system. But that is what we want. We want it to be too hard for one faction to remain dominant. If that continues everyone will just join the winning side as we see happening already. The goal would be to hold the systems as long as possible though pvp fighting in plexes. Keeping your lp store favorable for a longer period of time and preventing the other side from cashing out for longer. But yeah ultimately the war should sway from one side to the other.
AndromacheDarkstar wrote: I read your ideas about the notifications and im not 100% convinced there, maybe it would be better if a notification is up on the system control viewer to to show you what sites are up although we kind of already have that with the overview. .
I'm not sure what you are refering to. But when I enter a plex I doubt most of the enemy militia knows I am there. In fact I doubt most of the people in local who may be docked up docked up even know I am attacking their military complex.
I think this is why plexing is currently best done through pve. Its also why its hard to defend a system. If we had a notificiation system would could defend the system though pvp.
Ultimate question is whether ccp wants to make sov control a pvp mechanic or a pve/alt mechanic. If they want pvp they would notify us of plexes being taken by the enemy so we can fight for them. If they want it to remain pve they will just give lp or other boosts to defensive plexing. That way people can wait for offensive plexers to capture the plex and go plex it after all the wartargets leave.
AndromacheDarkstar wrote: With regards to NPCS i dont view them as too much of a problem, maybe have htem leave if an opposing player pulls into the plex (not sure how difficult this is to implememnt). Also if your introducing the outgate idea i propsed then your gonig to get allot more pvp anyway and so people wpuld be better prepared for it and will have got rid of or moved out of the way of NPCS before the fight starts . If you remove NPCs completely it will make plexing far too simple.
The minor plexes are not too bad. But the mediums and major plexes amarr faced used to be a real pain. I haven't done the medium or major ones since they supposedly removed ewar so I am not sure what they are like. I am not even sure they did remove the ewar. I know I was getting target painted in a minor plex. The strength of the npcs varies pretty dramatically depending on which militia you are fighting for. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch Caldari State Capturing
24
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 16:24:00 -
[89] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:I've no idea to be honest on the IHUB issue. But I do know its still apparently possible to plex (and get paid for plexing) when a system is in vulnerable state so I guess it wouldn't make much actual difference to the "strategy".
Anyway this is what I imagine Damar's alt is going on about.
No but ultimately it does not matter. Ushra K'han member (instead of usual TLF farmers) was spotted plexing in our space and smacking in local. So I am fairly convinced the Matar farming assault has begun. Unfortunately this leaves no option but to hasten Operation "s.it the sandbox" with all possible means to make sure we are not drowned by the red carebears coming over from Heimatar.
And should it go as planned and things go belly-up for you (success is after all never guaranteed), then remember that you forced us to do it with your pve machine. |
San Severina
Hoplite Brigade
13
|
Posted - 2012.07.15 13:05:00 -
[90] - Quote
Major Killz wrote:You all sound like nerds. just saying...
you think?
|
|
Major Killz
Chaotic Tranquility
45
|
Posted - 2012.07.15 15:56:00 -
[91] - Quote
San Severina wrote:Major Killz wrote:You all sound like nerds. just saying... you think?
Re Re: Quoting. Justing saying... |
Kane Smirnoff
Logos Corp
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.15 16:50:00 -
[92] - Quote
Does anybody remember the snowball launchers? Those were cool weren't they? However CCP 'melted' all the snowballs becuase of all the complaints of people firing back on a snowballer and getting concorded.
My point is the more you complain and threaten to rage quit over a new feature that CCP implements that isn't perfection. The more likely they will think twice about putting a whole bunch of effort into making/improving features for the players... |
Juan Rayo
Justified Chaos
4
|
Posted - 2012.07.15 18:50:00 -
[93] - Quote
Good ideas on that podcast. My notes:
1. Even at Tier 1, we should be at pre-inferno store prices or close to it. Highsec carebearing shouldn-¦t give better rewards than FW stores. This also keeps the GÇ£affordableGÇ¥ for newbies part of faction warfare. Current mechanics run newbies OUT of losing factions or at the very least scare them off from joining the militia they like.
Vets should remember that having FW stagnate, fighting the same people over and over again for 5 years is not the most exciting thing. Having newbies coming into the game and into FW should be considered a good thing. Any kind of solution to the GÇ£isk/lpGÇ¥ discussion should take that into account.
2. People should join a faction not because isk making is easy road. That only encourages pve.
3. Timer in plexes should reset if the guy running it abandons the plex. Encourages actually having to fight for the plex.
4. Rats are fine, get off the rats. Way people talk about them it-¦s like they are the most important thing in the theater. ECM is gone so let-¦s give it a time and see what happens.
5. Missions are almost worthless atm unless you have t4 store prices. Better rewards for missions could be considered. They have to be worked on though, because a lot of them are almost risk free (the ones that can be done in Stealth bombers).
6. I kind of liked the hauler instead of button idea. Sort of a GÇ£moving timerGÇ¥. Doesn-¦t change much but sounds nifty as dressing.
7. LP for defensive plexing. Why not exactly? Because it-¦s going to be farmed? Because it-¦s a reward for doing nothing but orbiting a button for 30mins? Well people farm offensive plexing already to great extent, farmers will farm. And defensive plexing it-¦s not really risk free either, you can always get attacked by enemy gangs. Just make it less rewarding than offensive so that you keep people more interested in offensive plexing. Also, defensive plexing can put LP into the system upgrade. Also goes towards being newbie friendly.
8. System upgrades also need to be iterated on. Bonuses for system occupancy should have more of a practical use.
9. I don-¦t think GÇ£alt armyGÇ¥ is causing the system occupancy flips or dominance. Sure, there is a lot of that, but at least in Gallente/caldari theater, the Caldari say they have been plexing with a purpose and a strategy and I don-¦t have any reason not to believe them. As I said, farmers will farm. They do it all over Eve in every area of space.
|
Cromwell Savage
Quantum Cats Syndicate
77
|
Posted - 2012.07.15 19:25:00 -
[94] - Quote
Juan Rayo wrote:Good points...
I agree with pretty much what you said except for rats/alts in plexes.
For me, as someone who was never in favor of the station docking denial, I have massive issues with plexing controling sov in it's current form. Here's why:
There is absolutely no question that plexing is one of the most borked up mechanics in all of Eve. To have such a massively flawed and imbalanced mechanic have such a massive and direct impact on system staging (docking) is ridiculous to me. If it weren't for station docking, I wouldn't care one bit about them. But as it is, my two main beefs are rats and noob-toon afk alts...
First, the rats - they are far from fine imho. No 1-week-old toon should ever be able to afk run a plex - regardless of faction - ever. So, one of two ways to fix that. Either retool rat aggro/damage to prevent a single ship from running the plex without at least killing a good portion of the rats (i.e. frig for minor, cruiser for med, bc for major restricted...) or make it so all rats have to be killed in addition to the timer being run down. Do one or the other and you solve the noob-toon afk plexer issue.
Which leads me into the second part, that being the afk noob-toon farmer to begin with. Usually, I would care less about anyone farming LP. When it was missions, I didn't care one single bit. But here's the difference, plexing (unlike missions) does affect sov which now affects station docking. And station docking affects PvP (i.e. system staging). The beauty of pre-inferno stations was a small FW corp could venture into lo-sec and grow. Now, smaller corps do not have that option on their own - or at least without the real risk of quickly losing that system if they don't have EU and US coverage.
For me, I don't care too much about LP. It's great and it augments my normal income, but my major issue with this latest "update" centers around station access. And with station comes comes plexing.... Plexing must be fixed, otherwise, completely drop this derp idea of station lockout... |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
492
|
Posted - 2012.07.15 21:34:00 -
[95] - Quote
Juan Rayo wrote:7. LP for defensive plexing. Why not exactly? Because it-¦s going to be farmed? Because it-¦s a reward for doing nothing but orbiting a button for 30mins? Well people farm offensive plexing already to great extent, farmers will farm. And defensive plexing it-¦s not really risk free either, you can always get attacked by enemy gangs. Just make it less rewarding than offensive so that you keep people more interested in offensive plexing. Also, defensive plexing can put LP into the system upgrade. Also goes towards being newbie friendly.
There are many many good reasons not to have lp for defensive plexing.
As it is right now it is unclear that the amarr will ever be able to make a comeback under the current mechanics. If ccp changes the rules to help minmatar defensive plex their system then our slim hopes get even slimmer. The compeling reason to not award lp for defensive plexing is that it gives some reason to continue to fight for the side that is currently down.
I would rather they did away with defensive plexing altogether. Force the winning side to actually fight the offensive plexer in order to "defend" their system. "Defending" your system by running a plex when wartargets aren't even present is lame and deserves no reward.
The other option would be to make a player have to pay lp in order to have his defensive plex lower the amount the system is contested. In sum the system is liekly too lopsided for the winning side. We don't need to make it more lopsided. But here aere some other reasons its good not to give lp for dplexing.
1) Encourages the defending side to stop plexers in pvp before they capture a plex so that they do not need to orbit a button for no pay. Defensive plexing is best understood as punishment for not defendig your system properly in pvp.
2) Gives some reason to join the side with fewer systems since although your lp is worth very little you have more opportunities to make lp through plexing. It also limits the winning sides ability to make lp through plexing. Yes they can still make lp from missions but that does not help their occupancy efforts and if enough people switch over to missioning instead of plexing then the side with fewer systems is given some respite.
3) It can lead to a war where many systems become vulnerable or close to vulnerable and then flipped in a dramatic fashion. Sort of the topic of this thread. As I mention this can lead to all of the militia getting the isk needed to sustain constant pvp.
4) Its sort of neat to use individual greed as a balance.
5) If you want to farm systems where your enemy can't even dock then eve offers that already. Sov null sec. I think sov null sec could greatly benefit from a system like this where you are rewarded for taking over new space instead of just sitting in your space and farming it. IMO, that is a big reason why null sec has been so boring for the last few years. By forcing people to take over new space in order to gain isk you encourage conflict.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Bezerk'ah Vulkan
The Ressabiators
11
|
Posted - 2012.07.15 22:48:00 -
[96] - Quote
Also finnished listening...
Missions should be tweaked to have impact in warzone.
Also one of the best ideas thrown out there that isnt really tied to FW mechanics is that upgraded systems affect the quantity of sec status gained by rats killed in that system...PLEASE! |
Andre Vauban
Quantum Cats Syndicate
21
|
Posted - 2012.07.15 23:28:00 -
[97] - Quote
Cearain wrote: I would rather they did away with defensive plexing altogether. Force the winning side to actually fight the offensive plexer in order to "defend" their system. "Defending" your system by running a plex when wartargets aren't even present is lame and deserves no reward.
The other option would be to make a player have to pay lp in order to have his defensive plex lower the amount the system is contested. In sum the system is liekly too lopsided for the winning side. We don't need to make it more lopsided. But here aere some other reasons its good not to give lp for dplexing.
This is a horrible idea. If I want to take a system, I just need to find the hour or two a day where you don't have presence in the system and run a few plexs then. It will take a long time, but it makes defense impossible. You could totally dominate a system for 20 hours a day and still loose it because you didn't cover two hours a day.
Personally, I like the no lp for defensive plexing, but you get I hub upgrade lp deposited for running defensive plexs. |
Aradus Gunnell
Tactical Entertainment Network I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
36
|
Posted - 2012.07.16 13:12:00 -
[98] - Quote
Andre Vauban wrote:
Personally, I like the no lp for defensive plexing, but you get I hub upgrade lp deposited for running defensive plexs. They should also set like a 48 hour timer once a system goes vulnerable. If it isn't captured it should go back to 0 percent contested. The systems a faction started with that have been lost should also slowly contest like 5% a day to help the losing side.
This may have some merit. SPENCE from TEN EVEning News! DUST514 & EVE Online news every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday!
We Pay Isk for good stories!-á Contact me via eve mail, here on the forums, or at www.tacticalentertainment.tv |
BolsterBomb
Frog Steamers
107
|
Posted - 2012.07.16 13:55:00 -
[99] - Quote
I am sure I am in the minority but I like the way plexing and the current Sov mechanics work. I do however not like how D-plexing works, and yes I sometimes take an inty out and simply speed tank a plex but the majority of the time I am in a hookbill or CNI fully fitted for pvp. I also kill most of the rats probably about 75% of the time since I cant fight anything that comes in with them on me.
Someone already suggested that you should tie War Zone Control to the amount of LP gained instead of the other way around. I like this notion as it would encourage the D-plex , however I do not think it will create anything different then we have now.
People that plex (like myself) do it for ISK reasons as well as the War Zone control. The problem is the "freedom" that FW gives players creates a group that could care less about plexing and doesnt need the LP as income.
The fundamental problem you have is very simple:
You have people in FW that do not care about the mechanics of Sov and anything you will or could do still will not get them involved.
I wrote an extensive proposition to a couple people this weekend outlining this problem. In FW you have a mix of people like me that care about Sov and pushing WZ control, and then lots others that just want "free" kills. FW was a system of free kills but now it is indeed 0.0 light. I like it because now their are goals and objectives rather then log in and kill people only.
You cant feasibly mix the two concepts and come up with a good system. Its counter intuitive, and this is why I like the current system as is except for D-Plexing and I do not have a feasible idea that would solve this.
TLDR: Mixing people that want free kills with people that play FW for the sov mechanics will never mix well (especially without a true alliance command structure)
I Brig General of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation |
Aradus Gunnell
Tactical Entertainment Network I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
36
|
Posted - 2012.07.16 13:59:00 -
[100] - Quote
BolsterBomb wrote:I am sure I am in the minority but I like the way plexing and the current Sov mechanics work. I do however not like how D-plexing works, and yes I sometimes take an inty out and simply speed tank a plex but the majority of the time I am in a hookbill or CNI fully fitted for pvp. I also kill most of the rats probably about 75% of the time since I cant fight anything that comes in with them on me.
Someone already suggested that you should tie War Zone Control to the amount of LP gained instead of the other way around. I like this notion as it would encourage the D-plex , however I do not think it will create anything different then we have now.
People that plex (like myself) do it for ISK reasons as well as the War Zone control. The problem is the "freedom" that FW gives players creates a group that could care less about plexing and doesnt need the LP as income.
The fundamental problem you have is very simple:
You have people in FW that do not care about the mechanics of Sov and anything you will or could do still will not get them involved.
I wrote an extensive proposition to a couple people this weekend outlining this problem. In FW you have a mix of people like me that care about Sov and pushing WZ control, and then lots others that just want "free" kills. FW was a system of free kills but now it is indeed 0.0 light. I like it because now their are goals and objectives rather then log in and kill people only.
You cant feasibly mix the two concepts and come up with a good system. Its counter intuitive, and this is why I like the current system as is except for D-Plexing and I do not have a feasible idea that would solve this.
TLDR: Mixing people that want free kills with people that play FW for the sov mechanics will never mix well (especially without a true alliance command structure)
I
Also good stuff. So good to see people discussing this topic!
Bolster, we're gonna save you a chair on the next FW roundtable :P SPENCE from TEN EVEning News! DUST514 & EVE Online news every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday!
We Pay Isk for good stories!-á Contact me via eve mail, here on the forums, or at www.tacticalentertainment.tv |
|
BolsterBomb
Frog Steamers
107
|
Posted - 2012.07.16 14:16:00 -
[101] - Quote
Aradus Gunnell wrote:BolsterBomb wrote:I am sure I am in the minority but I like the way plexing and the current Sov mechanics work. I do however not like how D-plexing works, and yes I sometimes take an inty out and simply speed tank a plex but the majority of the time I am in a hookbill or CNI fully fitted for pvp. I also kill most of the rats probably about 75% of the time since I cant fight anything that comes in with them on me.
Someone already suggested that you should tie War Zone Control to the amount of LP gained instead of the other way around. I like this notion as it would encourage the D-plex , however I do not think it will create anything different then we have now.
People that plex (like myself) do it for ISK reasons as well as the War Zone control. The problem is the "freedom" that FW gives players creates a group that could care less about plexing and doesnt need the LP as income.
The fundamental problem you have is very simple:
You have people in FW that do not care about the mechanics of Sov and anything you will or could do still will not get them involved.
I wrote an extensive proposition to a couple people this weekend outlining this problem. In FW you have a mix of people like me that care about Sov and pushing WZ control, and then lots others that just want "free" kills. FW was a system of free kills but now it is indeed 0.0 light. I like it because now their are goals and objectives rather then log in and kill people only.
You cant feasibly mix the two concepts and come up with a good system. Its counter intuitive, and this is why I like the current system as is except for D-Plexing and I do not have a feasible idea that would solve this.
TLDR: Mixing people that want free kills with people that play FW for the sov mechanics will never mix well (especially without a true alliance command structure)
I Also good stuff. So good to see people discussing this topic! Bolster, we're gonna save you a chair on the next FW roundtable :P
As long as its not next to a Gallente scum , not a problem :)
Brig General of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2668
|
Posted - 2012.07.16 15:01:00 -
[102] - Quote
BolsterBomb wrote: As long as its not next to a Gallente scum , not a problem :)
Deal wiz it. You guys have the rest of your lives to bicker and blow each other up, in the meantime we gotta work on the feature itself! Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
152
|
Posted - 2012.07.16 21:20:00 -
[103] - Quote
BolsterBomb wrote:As long as its not next to a Gallente scum , not a problem :)
In your opinion, do I fall under the above categorization? :) |
Cromwell Savage
Quantum Cats Syndicate
79
|
Posted - 2012.07.16 23:04:00 -
[104] - Quote
chatgris wrote:BolsterBomb wrote:As long as its not next to a Gallente scum , not a problem :)
In your opinion, do I fall under the above categorization? :)
Of course Chatgris! Of course!
Everyone knows that you are the evil mastermind behind all RL accusations and harrassment of certain fine, mature, mentally stable and rule abiding players of Teh State!
|
Horak Thor
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
8
|
Posted - 2012.07.18 09:28:00 -
[105] - Quote
1) if a hostile placer leaves plex and you get in range of button, it resets to start state. 2) systems not being pushed de contest slowly. 3) the hit to the faction with no system control shouldn't be as bad, amarr are in a bad way. But there should still be a clear difference between winning loosing sides. |
Amymuffmuff
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
6
|
Posted - 2012.07.18 10:06:00 -
[106] - Quote
i just want to say thanks to Spence for hosting it and look forward to many more chances to discuss things together in the future.
at the end of the day everyone should just do what they can in game to have fun.
i assume thats why most people play eve afterall.
as most of you know i've been on the minmatar side and yes we are "winning" currently so of course i am going to be happy but i do expect things to change eventually. the whole point of these discussions in this link is to try and work out together what we think is the best solution to the problems.
i know everyone is going to have there own personal view on things so its hard to encompass everyone but we will just do what we can to make it the best for all, even if its hard to believe coming from the "winning" side, i do still want the amarr and caldari to want to play and fight us.
i'm not going to get down to arguments in here over every little aspect of the game. the fact is there are plenty of people who are just on our side to ***** LP and i can't blame them. if you aren't then its their own fault i guess. and i do understand that the missions that aren't vs the amarr are a lot harder to complete and they should be balanced. but i do stand by the fact that there shouldn't be a reset because it's not our fault that we actually worked hard when we saw the initial plan for FW changes from the FW fanfest discussion (i even made sure i had a corp mate ask questions for me as i couldn't make it). so you are all just going to have to get off your arses and come and kick us in.
(sorry if i got a little off topic to the exact texts of the thread i haven't read it all yet this is just something i wanted to say now)
/edit
i do think that plexes should count down if your forced to leave. even if someone of the opposing faction isn't there to force it. |
Princess Nexxala
Quantum Cats Syndicate
76
|
Posted - 2012.07.18 15:27:00 -
[107] - Quote
No they all save their hate for me chat. My peasant low grades and lack of a boosting alt makes me far more scum like
So stop fighting Chat! He cheats! He must not pass me on BC....
chatgris wrote:BolsterBomb wrote:As long as its not next to a Gallente scum , not a problem :)
In your opinion, do I fall under the above categorization? :) Is sexy time? |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
318
|
Posted - 2012.07.18 16:49:00 -
[108] - Quote
Quote:TLDR: Mixing people that want free kills with people that play FW for the sov mechanics will never mix well (especially without a true alliance command structure) This is a false and misleading statement. The "free kills" guys play an important role in helping the guys who play FW for the sov mechanics win.
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d33pdenim
H-O-U-S-E
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.19 16:04:00 -
[109] - Quote
Our corp is pure low-sec pie group of players. All of a sudden we have found ourselves right in the FW (Black Rise) war zone. We also became affiliated with small group of Gallente Militia guys picking around our home system. From pirate corp prospective the new FW is just a blast. So many targets, so many kills opportunities and new fighting techniques. Of course we had FW alts in all 3 factions from day 1 and made a fortunes in terms of ISKs via LP shops.
So we pay attention what is going on with FW in general, since we are involved somehow. And I have listened this podcast with great pleasure and interest. I really, really like the attitude of the guys who participated. They obviously take FW as integral part of the game, may be even as some role-playing in EvE, not only like ISK printing machine or cheap pvp plex runners hunters.
One part of the podcast was really interested for us. What the motivation for people to join Militia and fight for particular faction? And we are not talking here about armada of opportunistic alts.
I agree that FW pilots should get something unique, something more that LP shop.
How about to make faction ships as weapon of choice for FW pilots? Lets say this ships get extra bonuses for FW pilots. Something like resists, armor hit points, etc... And this bonuses depends on FW rank. Higher rank in hierarchy, more and better bonuses pilot has for certain ships belonging only to his faction. And make promotions for running defending plexes 3 (5, 10, whatever) times faster than for offensive.
I noticed a lot of ranting about how plex runners (farmers) avoid pvp and how invincible they are. Well, avoiding the fight is still part of pvp in this game. And what do you expect from few days old chars in not pvp fits? If you want to kill them, put some effort in it, do something more that just warp to the beacon
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Plyn
Hossenfeffer.
56
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Posted - 2012.07.19 17:53:00 -
[110] - Quote
Heard some great ideas in that roundtable. To throw in my two cents, and elaborate on some of what I liked:
- Change system upgrades to modify plex behavior.
- In a completely unupgraded system there are no rats in plexes at all. This means that newbies can come into FW and lurk around the less populated areas still earning their LP, having a tangible benefit to the militia.
- Each level of system upgrade increases the defensive hold the faction has on the plexes in that system. Starting off with just some basic rats.
- Level two can add some elite rats, maybe some scrams but not necessarily webs, meaning the plexer is more commited to the plex because it's harder to gtfo, but they aren't a sitting duck forced to PvE.
- Level 3 upgrade can add those webs in. At this level of investment into a system the plexers have to consider better strategy. Multiple pilots in PvP ships working together, or maybe a PvP + PvE team.
- Increasing difficulty at level 4 and 5 upgrades. At the highest level the plexes should be difficult enough to do that a decent fleet is required. Not incursion level or anything, because you are expecting some PvP conflict, but definitely not something you would want to afk either.
- This provides fleet conflict points and protects core systems from being over-contested by LPfarm alts. Scale loyalty points for plexes with the increased difficulty. If a plex normally gave 20k LP and you could do it solo, at level 3 you need a couple of people to do it, put a multiplier on that LP so when it's split it's worth it for fleets to do them together.
- Modify LP costs to upgrade systems so it's fairly expensive to fortify your position. Include a cost modifier correlating to your militia's Tier, meaning if your militia controls almost the entire warzone it will be MUCH more costly to upgrade systems, making it unprofitable for players to make the whole warzone harder to capture.
- Sounds like a lot of grinding right? Modify bunker HP in upgraded systems... or rather, modify bunker HP in general and give a bonus to upgraded systems. In a fully upgraded system a bunker would have about the same HP as it has now. In an non-upgraded system these should be much easier to destroy. This allows no-name backwater systems to become hotbeds for small gang FW conflict, where a small contingent of players might work up contest for a day or two then come in with a 5 man fleet and flip the bunker in half an hour. The other militia can scramble to put a defense together, but neither side will feel like they have to wait for off hours to make a play on a system that has little tactical significance. Sure, you can bring a huge fleet and flip that non-upgraded bunker really fast, but your exposing a larger group of assets to accomplish a goal a smaller group could do.
- The need to defend systems with middle level upgrades will feel more urgent, as militias will not want the LP dumped into upgrades to be wasted.
- As mentioned in that wonderful round table, modify the Tier system's benefits to give bonus LP when you gain LP instead of modifying the LP store's item cost.
- This gives a direct, tangible benefit to capturing systems instead of sitting on vulnerable systems. There should be a constant sense of urgency to flip or defend systems. Being able to completely dismiss your systems being captured and experiencing no real loss in the long run is both immersion breaking and conducive to player apathy.
- This will give players more incentive to defensively plex, as losing any one system could actually matter.
- Militias that are currently losing won't feel such a morale hit because their LP will still feel like it's worth something, even if they aren't earning as much of it.
Hossenfeffer. |
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Shepard Book
Underground Stargate
67
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Posted - 2012.07.19 19:17:00 -
[111] - Quote
A losing Militia complaining about losing and not having the benefits of wining is amusing. Not sure exactly who went EMO in that round table but you should concentrate more on being objective and constructive IMO. You also need to put aside grudges of other people if you are going to try to improve the FW mechanic. That was the goal of the round table.
I agree the losing side should at least make more than a high sec lvl 4 missioner because of the risk factor. I also believe the wining side should have better rewards than the losing.
I would like to see the allies have the ability to help each other more and reap the benefits on both fronts. We have a bunch of corps leaving to join their ally because of rewards. I say let them stay in either militia and help each other with the rewards. This goes for victory points as well.
I would also like to see speed tanking taken out somehow and make them at least have to kill the rats. Speed tanking like 4 or 5 spawns all together is intended? |
Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
107
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Posted - 2012.07.19 22:13:00 -
[112] - Quote
Just to clarify since I've seen this mentioned by different people. I don't want to make it impossible to run away in the FW plex system. What bugs me is that running away is rewarded so much. The system shouldn't be geared so that people who constantly run away are still able to reap LP rewards, and in fact do so at a much higher rate than those who actually stay and fight. That's the big problem, since ostensibly FW is supposed to encourage PVP. If a plex farmer bails from a plex, the player who chased him out then has to sit back on the button and run it down farther than he would have to run a normal plex. Meanwhile, the farmer can go and run an entirely new plex, with its own LP reward, in another system in less time than it takes to reconquer the other plex.
The way XG put it in another thread was that you are essentially punishing the defender for winning (by causing the attacking player to bail), making him waste his time running down the timer again. The system should be constructed so that those who actually fight and actually risk something get the greatest rewards, while those who constantly run get next to nothing. That's why I think we should have timers that reset when an entity is not running them, as well as killing the speed tanking issue. |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
157
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Posted - 2012.07.19 22:45:00 -
[113] - Quote
d33pdenim wrote:And what do you expect from few days old chars in not pvp fits? If you want to kill them, put some effort in it, do something more that just warp to the beacon
It isn't that we can't kill them - it's that they have such a high (if not the highest) effect on sov of any players, yet they have no interest in pvp (not even fitting for it). |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
319
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Posted - 2012.07.19 22:47:00 -
[114] - Quote
Shepard Book wrote:A losing Militia complaining about losing and not having the benefits of wining is amusing. Personally I believe the winning faction should get LP for every time they bait the losing faction into whining on the forums. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
319
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Posted - 2012.07.19 22:53:00 -
[115] - Quote
d33pdenim wrote: How about to make faction ships as weapon of choice for FW pilots? Lets say this ships get extra bonuses for FW pilots. Something like resists, armor hit points, etc... And this bonuses depends on FW rank. Higher rank in hierarchy, more and better bonuses pilot has for certain ships belonging only to his faction. And make promotions for running defending plexes 3 (5, 10, whatever) times faster than for offensive.
Currently faction ships are cheaper for FW than for the general public. This is always true for faction frigs even if one side can't get out of Tier 1.
Another idea was to treat pirate faction ships as T2 ships for plex entry requirements (since they are better than T2). This would mean empire faction ships would be "king of the plex" (outside of destroyers in minor plexes).
I would love to fit up an all-federation faction ship. I think Sigari Kitawa had a great idea about giving better bonuses to Faction ships sporting the same faction gear (Fed Navy Blasters would perform better on Fed Navy Comets than they would on a T2 or T1 hull, for example).
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Aradus Gunnell
Tactical Entertainment Network I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
36
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Posted - 2012.07.19 22:54:00 -
[116] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Shepard Book wrote:A losing Militia complaining about losing and not having the benefits of wining is amusing. Personally I believe the winning faction should get LP for every time they bait the losing faction into whining on the forums.
Only if the losing side gets points every time the 'winning' side acts smug :)
But seriously; I hope some of the movers and shakers at CCP are looking at this thread and taking the time to consider that many, many people who have invested time and energy into Faction Warfare agree that the system needs tweaking.
Things we can all agree on:
1. The side winning the conflict should have benefits greater than the losing side;
2. There should be some type of incentive(s) for the losing side to keep on fighting (other than 'pride' which has never worked in Eve)...and to discourage them from just throwing an alt into the winning militia and compounding the problem;
3. PvP is fun, and we enjoy melting the faces of our enemies, and then talking crap in local, no matter what side you're on :P
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
492
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Posted - 2012.07.20 20:37:00 -
[117] - Quote
Andre Vauban wrote:Cearain wrote: I would rather they did away with defensive plexing altogether. Force the winning side to actually fight the offensive plexer in order to "defend" their system. "Defending" your system by running a plex when wartargets aren't even present is lame and deserves no reward.
The other option would be to make a player have to pay lp in order to have his defensive plex lower the amount the system is contested. In sum the system is liekly too lopsided for the winning side. We don't need to make it more lopsided. But here aere some other reasons its good not to give lp for dplexing.
[quote=Andre Vauban] This is a horrible idea. If I want to take a system, I just need to find the hour or two a day where you don't have presence in the system and run a few plexs then. It will take a long time, but it makes defense impossible. You could totally dominate a system for 20 hours a day and still loose it because you didn't cover two hours a day..
I don't really think defensive plexing is really "defending" a system at all. It is often done when no one is even there to defend the system against.
I think many in faction war think its their right to let people offensive plex their system while they sit there in a gang or docked up and then wait until the wartargets leave so they can then orbit the button with no intereference.
I just finished running offensive plexes for 30 minutes in Dal auga and kourmonen - busy minmatar systems - and no one seemed to care. Why should they? If they have lots of time (as lots of eve players appearantly do) they can just orbit a button when no wartargets are around and decontest the system.
In the case you propose (which is far fetched with no one in your faction present at all for 2 hours everyday at the same time for 20 days lol) you would be able to recapture the system quickly as well (although if it were your base that may cause a small problem.) Or if the system just involved paying some lp for your defensive pleixing to work toward decontesting the sytem, you could do that.
Either way you would be punished for not defending in pvp. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Hobocus
BlueBook
0
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Posted - 2012.07.21 06:03:00 -
[118] - Quote
MINNIES SUCK
Minnies Suck |
subtle turtle
We Reach Around Situation: Normal
12
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Posted - 2012.07.21 13:59:00 -
[119] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Shepard Book wrote:A losing Militia complaining about losing and not having the benefits of wining is amusing. Personally I believe the winning faction should get LP for every time they bait the losing faction into whining on the forums.
LOL a forum trolling sov mechanic! If we had that, though, the large null alliances would HAVE to join FW, forum trolling is their primary mode of game play. |
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