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Signal11th
601
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Posted - 2012.07.10 18:13:00 -
[31] - Quote
Rene Fullchest wrote:Wait - how the hell did I get 43 likes????
Blimey didn't realise that FA had 44 members! You been on a recruitment drive? God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!"-a I came second and won a toaster. |

Khanh'rhh
1457
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Posted - 2012.07.10 18:36:00 -
[32] - Quote
Ayn Randy wrote:What are you even on about? Is that the CFCs tactic? Blob so hard that the SoCo wont fight them?
Either CFC is very good at reverse psychology or they just need to go back to school and learn how to count. Reverse psychology? I don't think you know what that means.
They're winning, you're losing. You can cry and sob about fair fights all you want, but that won't bring Delve back.
I'll just stick this here: http://soundcloud.com/dariush_records/
and ask people whether you think those are recordings of an elite and competent force being overwhelmed, or people screaming and whining and blaming anything but themselves when they lose.
I love the irony of Nulli/AAA crying about blobbing when you gleefully celebrate every small victory you get when you outnumber the opponent.
Keep on truckin' - "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930's |

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1168
 |
Posted - 2012.07.10 18:42:00 -
[33] - Quote
Khanh'rhh wrote:Ayn Randy wrote:What are you even on about? Is that the CFCs tactic? Blob so hard that the SoCo wont fight them?
Either CFC is very good at reverse psychology or they just need to go back to school and learn how to count. Reverse psychology? I don't think you know what that means. They're winning, you're losing. You can cry and sob about fair fights all you want, but that won't bring Delve back. I'll just stick this here: http://soundcloud.com/dariush_records/and ask people whether you think those are recordings of an elite and competent force being overwhelmed, or people screaming and whining and blaming anything but themselves when they lose. I love the irony of Nulli/AAA crying about blobbing when you gleefully celebrate every small victory you get when you outnumber the opponent. Keep on truckin' The truck is out of gas, and it's on fire.
And the whole forest it is lost in is also on fire.
Only you can stop forest fires.
Did they blob first, did we blob first? Meh. Who blobs more, now that's what we're looking at. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |

Apostate Lucius
The Plebian Republic
14
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Posted - 2012.07.10 20:03:00 -
[34] - Quote
Rene Fullchest wrote:I have, for so long, heard the whinging about "fair fights" that I thought I'd bring the topic to GD.
Whether you are a veteran of nullsec campaigns or a casual hisec miner, you know the refrain, some variation of "ZOMG, they came with three times our numbers, why they don't 'fight fair'?"
I've never gotten this. Yes, this is a game, but the simulation is of war, not some sports event with rules and equal numbers on teams. The simulation is of invasion and crushing one's enemy, of winners and losers, of the thrill of success and the humiliation of defeat.
I say crying about fair fights is the lament of losers. What say you?
I say that mortal combat is an art lost among today's society. The gladiators of antiquity, though hardly the peers of the well-to-do in Rome, were celebrities in their own right. They lived and died by a set of rules that made such contests exciting to watch and rather horrifying to live through. War is war, but murderous combat between two men was the stuff of legends in those times.
I can understand why such things have fallen away, however. Let Caesar never forget, though he may rule with the authority of the gods, he is allowed to rule by the whim of the people. |

Savage Angel
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
132
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Posted - 2012.07.10 20:05:00 -
[35] - Quote
From the movie "Patton":
"Now I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country. "
To add to that, no one ever wins a war by making sure the other side has a fair fight. |

Gogela
Direct Action LLC.
863
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Posted - 2012.07.10 20:24:00 -
[36] - Quote
I took a buddy of mine out to camp a gate the other day. We had 3 ships... lots of DPS, but a couple of frigs came in and a rook jammed us all. We had the DPS. We could have taken them. ...and as I sat here watching my ship sllooooowwwllly loose armor it sure felt unfair. ...but it wasn't. Shoulda fit sensor backups.
|

FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1898
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Posted - 2012.07.10 20:27:00 -
[37] - Quote
I've no problem with people not fighting fair, I just have a problem with them gloating as if they did.
When I hunt down and kill a mission runner's ship in an attempt to provoke his corp to actually defend itself in a war, I don't feel like I've accomplished a major victory. It's a means to an end. I knew the outcome before I started the fight. The same goes for a 100-man fleet smashing a 10-man gang. The same goes for people fighting on stations with more neutral support that they have combat ships. The same goes for suicide gankers. If you act only because you know the outcome will go to your favor, then all you accomplished was properly determining the lack of risk before engaging.
If you want bragging rights, do something dangerous.
edit: note that I'm referring to individual fights in these examples. A suicide ganker successfully impacting mining habits or mineral prices is playing a larger game, and doing it well. A 100 man fleet that consistently catches and destroys smaller roaming fleets might be working to secure sov. There are metagame strategies that certainly warrant bragging, no matter how you play them in combat. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |

drdxie
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
136
 |
Posted - 2012.07.10 20:33:00 -
[38] - Quote
LMAO... only ones whining about fair fight is CFC.. SoCo continues to engage larger numbers.. Sometimes we win.. sometimes we don't, it' s all fun... eg, we took a 60 man drake blob, yes we call a small fleet like that a blob, to 1dh which had 400 or so in local for some gorilla warfare. We engaged, got some kills, got some losses, and after our brave logi were down we managed to get the survivors out after some GF's in local... The SoCo fleet sure had fun and I am sure the CFC's did too.
Missile enhancers.. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1235061& |

Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
356
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Posted - 2012.07.10 20:40:00 -
[39] - Quote
drdxie wrote:gorilla warfare
Smashing suitcases, were you? -RubyPorto
IB4TS |

Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
143
 |
Posted - 2012.07.10 20:46:00 -
[40] - Quote
nothing in life is fair, the sooner people realise this the better. |
|

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
2158
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Posted - 2012.07.10 20:55:00 -
[41] - Quote
Micheal Dietrich wrote:All's fair in love and war.
Yes, but in love being out numbered is not necessarily a bad thing. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-a out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-aas the rest of the player base. |

Maxpie
Metaphysical Utopian Society Explorations
163
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Posted - 2012.07.10 21:03:00 -
[42] - Quote
I think you mistake people's desire for fun and exciting fights with some sort of crying over unfair fights. Everyone knows fair fights are not to be expected, it's just awesome when you get a fun, pulse pounding, mouse-hand shaking battle. As opposed to desperately trying to get a lock before the rest of the blob kills the target. |

Luba Cibre
Global Song Setup
167
 |
Posted - 2012.07.10 21:06:00 -
[43] - Quote
Fck fair fights, i'll drop 250 drakes on your 10 man gatecamp every time I can. |

Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
1008
 |
Posted - 2012.07.10 21:08:00 -
[44] - Quote
I've been in fair fights. They were with Corpies and we were just playing around with fittings. |

Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
179
 |
Posted - 2012.07.10 21:15:00 -
[45] - Quote
Rene Fullchest wrote:I have, for so long, heard the whinging about "fair fights" that I thought I'd bring the topic to GD.
Whether you are a veteran of nullsec campaigns or a casual hisec miner, you know the refrain, some variation of "ZOMG, they came with three times our numbers, why they don't 'fight fair'?"
I've never gotten this. Yes, this is a game, but the simulation is of war, not some sports event with rules and equal numbers on teams. The simulation is of invasion and crushing one's enemy, of winners and losers, of the thrill of success and the humiliation of defeat.
I say crying about fair fights is the lament of losers. What say you?
It's a different mentality, that's all.
Some of us consider EVE a game. Yes, I know, heresy. But anyhow, the point of a game is a challenge. Having 10 people attack 1 target presents no challenge, and it is also not what I would call sportsmanlike behavior. It's like hunting wolves from a chopper with a machinegun, any moron can do it.
Other people view it from the "all is fair in love and war" perspective, which from RP standpoint makes perfect sense in EVE.
There's no right or wrong answer. EVE is a sandbox, and both viewpoints are perfectly valid. Trouble is, EVE really encourages the second viewpoint, and really punishes the first. Which, and this is just my personal opinion, is what ended up costing this game a lot of subs.
Some games allow some form of fairness build into an engagement. Many MMOs have 2v2, 5v5, 15v15, etc. Gear is also largely the same, and it's mostly player skill the determines the winner. In EVE, the situation is completely reversed. As in, 15v5 is more common than not, gear (ships, mods, etc.) vary wildly, and SP is significantly more important than player skill (which is easily proved by a simple duel between a vet using a 100 SP char and a noob using a 100 mil SP char).
In other words, the fights in EVE are for the most part incredibly one-sided. Which is why so many people complain that fights are hard to get, because most people run at the first sign of balance shifting against them. Whereas in other MMOs, some people engage against huge odds and sometimes pull off epic victories that are more memorable.
Bottom line, unfairness is basically built into EVE by design. And sadly I feel it is more than a little responsible for EVE remaining a small niche game and never really making it into big time. No point trying to change it, just learn to live with it or more on to another MMO where the engagements are slightly more balanced. There's quite a few of those on the market. |

Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
357
 |
Posted - 2012.07.10 21:22:00 -
[46] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote: Some games allow some form of fairness build into an engagement. Many MMOs have 2v2, 5v5, 15v15, etc. Gear is also largely the same, and it's mostly player skill the determines the winner. In EVE, the situation is completely reversed. As in, 15v5 is more common than not, gear (ships, mods, etc.) vary wildly, and SP is significantly more important than player skill (which is easily proved by a simple duel between a vet using a 100 SP char and a noob using a 100 mil SP char).
1) There are groups that regularly engage and honor arranged fair fights. They don't generally hold space, because it's not a winning strategy, but they do it for fun.
2) There are groups that regularly take fights against forces that are vastly numerically superior and tear them apart.
3) SP is important up to a point. 100m SP guy isn't going to be better at flying a frig than focused 10m SP guy, and might not even beat 3m SP guy, depending on player skills.
4) 100SP guy can't actually fly any ship other than a Pod (A newbie ship takes 250SP for Spaceship Command 1, and 500SP for Racial Frig 1, for 750SP total). -RubyPorto
IB4TS |

Varell Jast
The Generic Pirate Corporation Fusion.
0
 |
Posted - 2012.07.10 22:41:00 -
[47] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:There's no right or wrong answer. EVE is a sandbox, and both viewpoints are perfectly valid. Trouble is, EVE really encourages the second viewpoint, and really punishes the first.
Eve does not encourage or punish any of these viewpoints... as a matter of fact, these viewpoints wouldn't even exist if people realized that the PvP in this game does not start when you get on your ship, it starts and is fought with the political maneuvering that got you into that fleet to begin with.
If you're on the receiving end of a fleet spanking, you lost that fight when you decided to fly with that particular corp/alliance.
I think. |

Rath Kelbore
The Six-Pack Syndicate
255
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Posted - 2012.07.10 22:51:00 -
[48] - Quote
At OP:
It is dumb to whine about unfair fights. While fair fights are usually more fun, most people just want to win obviously. You very rarely hear people whining about the fights when their side is being "unfair". I plan on living forever.......so far, so good. |

Russell Casey
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
170
 |
Posted - 2012.07.11 00:05:00 -
[49] - Quote
People whine about fair fights only when they lose. Otherwise they'll say L2P, nub. |

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1173
 |
Posted - 2012.07.11 00:33:00 -
[50] - Quote
Maxpie wrote:I think you mistake people's desire for fun and exciting fights with some sort of crying over unfair fights. Everyone knows fair fights are not to be expected, it's just awesome when you get a fun, pulse pounding, mouse-hand shaking battle. As opposed to desperately trying to get a lock before the rest of the blob kills the target. Better yet, seeing my shields go down as I get primaried because I jammed someone's scimitar. :ohdear: Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
|

Grumpymunky
Super Monkey Tribe of Danger
304
 |
Posted - 2012.07.11 03:33:00 -
[51] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:drdxie wrote:gorilla warfare Smashing suitcases, were you? I have some experience with this kind of fighting. It actually involves lobbing explosive bananas over rooftops at your opponents. Post with your monkey. |

Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
362
 |
Posted - 2012.07.11 03:54:00 -
[52] - Quote
Grumpymunky wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:drdxie wrote:gorilla warfare Smashing suitcases, were you? I have some experience with this kind of fighting. It actually involves lobbing explosive bananas over rooftops at your opponents.
Moltov Compost? -RubyPorto
IB4TS |

Khanh'rhh
1470
 |
Posted - 2012.07.11 08:22:00 -
[53] - Quote
drdxie wrote:SoCo continues to engage larger numbers "If you bring more ships than me, I will dock up" - Malaku, SOCO FC
Can you point to an example of when you successfully prevented the capture of a strategic objective?
You might want to try Guerrilla warfare, because I'm pretty sure tossing barrels won't help. - "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930's |

Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
789
 |
Posted - 2012.07.11 08:28:00 -
[54] - Quote
FAIR figths? yeah I want one of those frigates please please.
Frigate, Assault, Intercept, Recon.
 The universe is an ancient desert, a vast wasteland with only occasional habitable planets as oases. We Fremen, comfortable with deserts, shall now venture into another. - STILGAR, From the Sietch to the Stars. |

Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
665
 |
Posted - 2012.07.11 08:53:00 -
[55] - Quote
The Playing To Win series of articles by Sirlin is an excellent read on the subject.
I don't consider a fight "fair" or "unfair". No fight is won or lost because one side can't do something the other side can (ignoring for a moment the few singular instances of dev misconduct and game glitches). A fight is won or lost because one side didn't do something the other did. Whether that something is precise ship control to maintain range, or jumping into an enemy gatecamp without a scout, or not motivating enough people to form up for a fight, or not recruiting enough members and maintaining allies to help you when you are outnumbered. All those are factors every side can change - and the fact that your 10 man gang ends up being shot at by 80 enemies is merely a result of you neglecting some of these factors. While one single fight, few minutes taken out of context, might seem unfair, the unfairness is only due to one side already losing another fight before that - not the fight to mash F1, but the fight to form, maintain, lead and motivate an alliance. |

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1174
 |
Posted - 2012.07.11 08:57:00 -
[56] - Quote
Khanh'rhh wrote:drdxie wrote:SoCo continues to engage larger numbers "If you bring more ships than me, I will dock up" - Malaku, SOCO FC It ain't an empty threat either ^_____^ Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |

Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
135
 |
Posted - 2012.07.21 16:21:00 -
[57] - Quote
Rene Fullchest wrote:Thor Kerrigan wrote:... You can, however, win the isk battle ... I see this as just another meaningless metric, and that is proven by your choice of the term 'battle'. One battle does not make a war. You cannot win the 'isk war' against a superior force with (almost) unlimited isk. Again, talking about winning by the metric of isk destroyed versus isk lost is the whinging of losers, spin designed only to fool your own pilots, because the rest of the universe knows the truth.
Holding sov is the privilege of the superior numbers.
Inflicting damage without risking stationary assets is the privilege of the guerilla playstyle.
To each his own I guess. |

Gorinia Sanford
Sons of Russ
25
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Posted - 2012.07.21 18:52:00 -
[58] - Quote
Rene Fullchest wrote:I have, for so long, heard the whinging about "fair fights" that I thought I'd bring the topic to GD.
Whether you are a veteran of nullsec campaigns or a casual hisec miner, you know the refrain, some variation of "ZOMG, they came with three times our numbers, why they don't 'fight fair'?"
I've never gotten this. Yes, this is a game, but the simulation is of war, not some sports event with rules and equal numbers on teams. The simulation is of invasion and crushing one's enemy, of winners and losers, of the thrill of success and the humiliation of defeat.
I say crying about fair fights is the lament of losers. What say you?
If you're going to go to war, go Roman. Leave nothing alive and crush them with overwhelming numbers. This is how you fight a war.
When I spent time in the Army, my idea of a fair fight was the enemy died and I lived. Also, in an attacker vs. defender situation, the defender typically has a 3 to 1 advantage, especially if they're in prepared defenses.
A meeting engagement, that's a different animal entirely.
But bottom line, war is about winning, not "fair" fights. |

Chokichi Ozuwara
Royal One Piece Corporation Deadly Unknown
381
 |
Posted - 2012.07.21 19:09:00 -
[59] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Better yet, seeing my shields go down as I get primaried because I jammed someone's scimitar. :ohdear: It's hard to take any of your posts seriously when your killboard is basically you shooting at structures with 300 of your friends.
Tears will be shed and pants will need to be changed all round. |

Bootleg Jack
Potters Field
186
 |
Posted - 2012.07.21 19:10:00 -
[60] - Quote
dupe I'm an American, English is my second language... |
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