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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
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Posted - 2010.04.24 03:44:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Torothanax ...
You are incredibly dense: - The point of the thread is not to look to 0.0 and pine for its benefits. In fact, I'd argue that 10/10 plexes, drug manufacturing, cap/supercap production, and 100M+ ISK/hr/person from sanctums tends to make 0.0 a very interesting place for people that are into that kind of life. - The point of this thread isn't to look to high sec and demand that carebears come jump into my guns. I rather like the occasional bear coming out to my space - perhaps even to prove himself and stick around. - The point of this thread is to look to the better parts of low sec and show that the difference between 0.4 space and 0.1 space is incredible - and there's no difference at all in the risks associated with either space. Even 0.0 space was "equalized" in the last patch through upgrades, and I think its ludicrous that the difference in rewards should be so massive. - The point of this thread is to further look at the best highsec space and illustrate that the worst low sec space is fractionally better - you get maybe 5% more ISK living in a 0.4 than a 0.5 with the same quality agent, yet have an almost infinite amount more RISK. - Furthermore, pirates are not the only people in low sec. In fact, the term gets incorrectly bandied about quite a bit. While CCP Prism X claims that the "locals aren't very friendly", it could be argued that neither are NPC 0.0 locals very friendly. You will claim that they "own their space" or that they risk ... something ... for it, and I would ask how they own Syndicate - or if my claim to my little bit of low sec is somehow less real or if I risk any less? - You claim that 0.0 has methods that enforce "lawfulness" - and thus people go to 0.0 instead of low sec. I would argue that low sec has exactly the same mechanics as 0.0 for enforcing lawfulness: NBSI. The fact that there aren't mega low sec alliances is not terribly important, and not something I'm terribly interested in fixing. I like the low sec political landscape the way it is.
Basically: get a clue.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Torothanax
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Posted - 2010.04.26 07:05:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Torothanax on 26/04/2010 07:13:39 How about better rats in a .1 as compared to a .4? Oh wait they did that. I recall when you were lucky to find a decent BC rat in any low sec belt.
Why so hostile? I'm not in charge of changes. I don't get final say on anything. No need to shout me down. Last I checked I was entitled to an opinion and a right to post on these boards.
Basicly all I did was point out you can't go increasing income in low sec to try and get people out there, because it really wouldn't work. And then you **** a brick. Where did I ever say "Don't improve low sec at all, ever"?
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Daenosa
Pineal Squeegee
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Posted - 2010.04.26 08:00:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Torothanax
Basicly all I did was point out you can't go increasing income in low sec to try and get people out there, because it really wouldn't work. And then you **** a brick. Where did I ever say "Don't improve low sec at all, ever"?
O my lord, read, just read what people are saying
No one is on about improving low sec as a whole Simply improving 0.4/0.3 systems to match 0.1 systems, in terms of mission rewards and the like.
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Baneken
Gallente Aseveljet Sev3rance
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Posted - 2010.04.26 09:20:00 -
[34]
Problem with low sec is that is cannot be controlled like null sec and rewards are lower, hence people tend to avoid low sec and prefer to live in null/high sec systems. However it would make sense to have some low lvl pirate agents scattered throug out low sec.
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Torothanax
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Posted - 2010.04.26 10:09:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Daenosa No one is on about improving low sec as a whole Simply improving 0.4/0.3 systems to match 0.1 systems, in terms of mission rewards and the like.
Sooooo what you're sayin is "I want all systems in low sec to give the same rewards as a .1"? And that wouldn't increase low sec income over all? Gee I'd love it if all of null sec gave the same payout as a -10.0 true sec system. And you claim I'm having problems? Are you sure we live on the same planet?
Not to mention making the sec status of a system mean even less then it does now.
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Torothanax
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Posted - 2010.04.26 10:23:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Torothanax on 26/04/2010 10:26:06
Originally by: Liang Nuren - The point of this thread is to further look at the best highsec space and illustrate that the worst low sec space is fractionally better - you get maybe 5% more ISK living in a 0.4 than a 0.5 with the same quality agent, yet have an almost infinite amount more RISK.
See this here is the line I'm looking at. This to me says, as the whole thread does, that low sec has HUGE ungodly risk, so no one wants to go there, even though people already live there and make a pretty good living, so please increase the reward to match the risk.
Or did I read that wrong too? I mean you still get more in low sec, and the difference is not as insignificant as you make it out to be. You can make pretty good money off the BS rats if you groom the system. I don't see any moon mining going on in high sec. No reactions in high sec. Some of the best R&D agents are in low sec or even null. The rewards are there if you look for them. Plus you get to PvP without condord! THAT's the reason low sec exists. That's plenty of reward for most people. It's why most people are in low sec right now.
I'm not saying low sec is without problems, I just really don't think reward is among them.
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Torothanax
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Posted - 2010.04.26 10:56:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Liang Nuren - Furthermore, pirates are not the only people in low sec. In fact, the term gets incorrectly bandied about quite a bit. While CCP Prism X claims that the "locals aren't very friendly", it could be argued that neither are NPC 0.0 locals very friendly. You will claim that they "own their space" or that they risk ... something ... for it, and I would ask how they own Syndicate - or if my claim to my little bit of low sec is somehow less real or if I risk any less? - You claim that 0.0 has methods that enforce "lawfulness" - and thus people go to 0.0 instead of low sec. I would argue that low sec has exactly the same mechanics as 0.0 for enforcing lawfulness: NBSI. The fact that there aren't mega low sec alliances is not terribly important, and not something I'm terribly interested in fixing. I like the low sec political landscape the way it is.
People own systems they can't claim by being there and blasting the hell out of anyone they don't like. Squating for the win.
The reason you can enforce "lawfulness" in null but not in low sec is the gate and station guns. Even if you see a known "ganker", "pirate", "marked red" or whatever, you have to tank the guns to do anything about it. Or camp the station, or let them make the first move, or hope you catch them away from the guns.
Yeah the people in null are unfreindly as well. Product of game mechanics. You can't trust anyone in Eve. Sec status doesn't tell you jack diddly. There's know way to know if someone is a threat or not unless you actually know them or thier corp. So it's easier to just identify your friends and say "**** you" to everyone else.
You can't really do that in low sec. There's just no way to make it "safe" without a constant blob, that can tank gate guns, to monitor "your" area. This is why most people don't live there. This is why most people only go to pvp. There's no point in staying long term, somewhere you can't be reasonably safe in anything but a full out pvp ship.
It'd be great if more people ran with "NRDS", but I don't see that happening until there's more indication of who you should be watching and who plays nice most of the time. Right now, there's just really no penalty for shooting when ever you get the chance.
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King Rothgar
Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2010.04.26 11:59:00 -
[38]
Toro doesn't know how to tank sentry guns. The only things low sec holders don't have that null sec holders do are bubbles and cyno jammers. Low sec can be made as secure as npc null sec and almost as secure as cyno jammed null sec. You can also shoot pirates at will, they are outlaws. I've been in the militia for a month and not actively pirating, I'm still -8.6 despite plenty of carebearing when things are quiet. Getting sec back is a very long, slow and boring process.
Liang's proposal does increase the average low sec income and that is needed. This basic idea has already been applied to null sec via upgrades. The proposed homogenization should be given to all three distinct security zones. I would pin all of high sec mission rewards/belt rats at what you would expect to get in a 0.8 sec system, I'd pin low at 0.1 or 0.2 sec and null sec would all become -5.0 true sec for npc's and mission rewards. That is of course ignoring sov upgrades that can further improve it.
Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig. |
Torothanax
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Posted - 2010.04.26 13:05:00 -
[39]
Originally by: King Rothgar Toro doesn't know how to tank sentry guns. The only things low sec holders don't have that null sec holders do are bubbles and cyno jammers. Low sec can be made as secure as npc null sec and almost as secure as cyno jammed null sec. You can also shoot pirates at will, they are outlaws. I've been in the militia for a month and not actively pirating, I'm still -8.6 despite plenty of carebearing when things are quiet. Getting sec back is a very long, slow and boring process.
Liang's proposal does increase the average low sec income and that is needed. This basic idea has already been applied to null sec via upgrades. The proposed homogenization should be given to all three distinct security zones. I would pin all of high sec mission rewards/belt rats at what you would expect to get in a 0.8 sec system, I'd pin low at 0.1 or 0.2 sec and null sec would all become -5.0 true sec for npc's and mission rewards. That is of course ignoring sov upgrades that can further improve it.
First off, stop podding people in empire space, and your sec status wouldn't suck. What does being in the militia have to do with anything? If you were shooting war targets or "pirates" as you call them, you wouldn't have a sec status issue either. I call BS. Oh and if you want sec status, try null. Easy as pie to recover it.
Second: tanking guns is easy, tanking guns and taking on a similar size force isn't. But I suppose you just blob everything anyway, so it doesn't really matter.
Third: Bubbles are nice, but you don't need them except for small stuff, pods, and maybe a (very slim) chance at cloakers. Cyno jammers? Really? You mean you need a bunch of caps to take out a pos in low sec? Ya don't spam towers in low sec like ya used to in null.
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King Rothgar
Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2010.04.26 13:50:00 -
[40]
Toro, please train reading comprehension to 1.
Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig. |
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Zewdire
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Posted - 2010.04.26 17:49:00 -
[41]
I used to live in low sec for my first 3 years of playing eve, but had to move out to be able to make a living (ISK! vs. reward).
There is how ever a few other things that need to be considered before moving to low-sec for those that haven't lived there.
Protection from and by fellow pilot forming a environment close to that of 0.0 but without sov is a must, without this not many will stay as it's to high risk. In the constellation I used to live we solved this by using NBSI and enforced it with no exeptions, not blue then kill kill. We where over 15 corporations with about 2000 pilots all having good relations and having a blast in low-sec. We had pvp divisions that went on raiding party's to other constellations and 0.0, we had mining divisions mining ore and we had players ratting / doing complexes and last but not lest the builder / industrialist.
But this all changed slowly to the worse over time (many factors where affecting this and it's hard to find all for me as most have their own preferences, removing higher end ore was one, removing static complexes was another) with a big loss in 2006 of pilots to high sec or null sec. It was not worth the hassle to protect the systems anymore and this in turn led to more and more leaving as it's was getting more and more unsafe to do the stuff that was left (evil spiral effect).
If some new stuff that is static solar system is introduced it will once more be fixed. Protecting a system is fine is there's stuff worth protecting. Protection will bring risk vs. reward down once again and even more pilots will move to low-sec. And when number again is high of friendly pilots a constellation wide NBSI policy can be made with relative ease.
This in turn is a gold mine for pirates as they have T2/T3 ships with T2 fittings to hunt instead of the river of noobs that try out low sec now for mining / ratting.
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Syn Callibri
Swag Co. Sandbox Bullies
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Posted - 2010.04.26 19:09:00 -
[42]
"Do you know me? I'm Syn Callibri and when I travel in Lo-Sec I carry the "EVE X-Press Card", I can use it in all the best bars and dens of iniquity everywhere from Sec 1.0 to 0.0...The EVE X-Press card, don't leave your home sector without it!" (j/k)
@OP: I endorse and support this idea...+1!
"I have just as much authority as the empress, just not as many people that believe it." |
Daenosa
Pineal Squeegee
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Posted - 2010.04.26 19:32:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Torothanax stuff
I think your only on these forums to troll
0.1 income will not raise. There for low sec highest potential income will not raise
Please please say we have that straight now?
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Torothanax
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Posted - 2010.04.27 09:02:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Torothanax on 27/04/2010 09:06:13
Originally by: King Rothgar Toro, please train reading comprehension to 1.
So what exactly did I miss in your post? (why do the emo types and drama queens always fall in love with the "roll eyes" smiley btw?)
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Rokkit Kween
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Posted - 2010.04.27 12:43:00 -
[45]
To the OP (and anyone else who might be interested) Read This.
- Pirate factions shouldn't be included in normal FW, FW is a bit of a mess already and the pirate factions should be ranged against Concord not the empires. The pirates are the underground and need the empires to exists otherwise there are no laws to break. Piracy is parasitic, relying on the health of the host empire for their sustenance.
- Pirate agents in lo-sec? Yes. but only low quality/low level ones. shift the balance of agents across New Eden so that:
- hi-sec = empire faction agents up to high L3, no pirate agents.
- low-sec = all L4 and L5 empire faction agents, pirate agents up to high level 3.
- nul-sec = high quality L5 empire faction agents, L4 and L5 pirate agents
High sec L4 mission runners should no longer be given a free ride (and this char is one) this would benefit them in that they would get less ninjas in their level fours and would be free to shoot back at anyone invading their L4 missions. All they would have to worry about is player pirates (who would also have their own problems what with Concord militia players hunting them as detailed in above link)
That being said, Tyrannis may provide enough of a boost to lo-sec with players looking to exploit the resources of the planets away from the overcrowding of hi-sec.
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Mimiru Minahiro
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Posted - 2010.04.27 15:37:00 -
[46]
It might be worth considering changing sec loss to .1-.2 system levels.
Before people start screaming "ZOMG!!! THERE SHOULD BE CONSEQUENCES FOR AGRESSION!!!11eleventyone", consider that the chances of your survival decrease dramatically if you have to wait for a mission buster to engage you before shooting them. This is especially problemtaic given the number of non-blinky people who will agress you in lowsec. Lets face it, the "-10 is sexeh" crowd is not as large as it once was.
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Green Cobra
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Posted - 2010.05.01 19:26:00 -
[47]
This thread need a bump, low sec need fixing |
Thoraxe Rig
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Posted - 2010.05.01 20:04:00 -
[48]
The thing is that most carebears could really care less about low-sec. They can sit around twiddling their thumbs whilst their mining lasers pump ore into their cargo holds and rescue some guy in a frigate 100's of times per day and be happy about it. You could put pure platinum in low sec and they wont bat an eyelid at it. They make enough per month to pay off their account and continue to do the things they do. And to the "there's plenty of Q20 agents that attract attention" part. Chances are that those people are people who live in low sec, and not high sec carebears that have been tempted to cross the border.
However. There's also plenty of people in high sec that are curious about low sec and never really had the motivation to go there, and this might just tip them over the edge. But you'll probably gain the attention of bored 0.0 people who will end up moving their lesser divisions into low sec and muscle everyone else out.
But the chances of that are pretty low...
I'm not really sure what the heck I was getting at. But I'll support this anyway.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.05.01 20:22:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Thoraxe Rig The thing is that most carebears could really care less about low-sec....
Which I think is the whole point of Liang's post; the discrepancy in risk/reward between high-sec and low-sec is insane for a lot of areas. There are a few mission hubs with defence coalitions between mission-running corporations but outside of those small bubbles of tranquillity chances are that you will be bleeding ISK and not making it.
Making low-sec as a whole more profitable for everyone who wants to take the risk (pirates and bears boths) could increase traffic and population dramatically.
First things first though, there needs to be a vision in place for low-sec: who is to benefit, what is to be included etc. Some form of limited sovereignty system has been mentioned by multiple people the last year as has special NPC branches with associated LP stores .. it is a big-ass tapestry so no idea should be discarded until exhausted.
And if 0.0 wants to butt in on our action, we'll show them the door .. low-sec style!
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Zewdire
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Posted - 2010.05.20 19:35:00 -
[50]
Bump again, this thread is the most contructive in a wile on low sec. Keep it alive
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Kiri Serrensun
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Posted - 2010.05.20 21:59:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Teinyhr Only thing I would have a beef about is pirate agents in low-sec. I'm of the opinion that this is one of the benefits of controlling 0.0 and should stay that way. Others sound interesting ideas, altough I have a feeling I've seen them before.
I would like agents that can be scanned out--and you still need to go to a station to actually cash in those LP's, so controlling 0.0 is still worthwile.
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.05.26 15:35:00 -
[52]
There shouldn't be a gradation of reward for something that amounts to a wall of risk. There is little difference in risk between .4 and .1 systems. In fact, like Liang stated, the risk is greater in some .4 systems because they are low sec entry points. Either make the risks more graded (i.e. some concord/faction response in .4 systems but not like high sec) or make the rewards more even.
Adding more entry points would decrease the risk, but would also be a nerf to low sec pirates.
Evening out the risk would probably be a massive code monkey undertaking.
Evening out rewards would probably be the easiest stop-gap to mostly solve this issue.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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