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Deganji
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Posted - 2010.04.15 04:01:00 -
[1]
Can I ask why people aren't flagged when they salvage your wrecks? Seems a little silly that I could shoot them if they took my loot, but not if the steal salvage. I asked ingame in the help channel, but was told to "tell my mom". Is the playerbase here the same as WoW? I was hoping for better.
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Tobias Xiaosen
Gallente TX Holdings Company
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Posted - 2010.04.15 04:06:00 -
[2]
Per CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."
Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.
Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.
Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.
Per CCP Incognito : Originally by: CCP Incognito Had a chat with some designers this evening. Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private. They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks.
(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.)
These are basically the reasons why ~
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Deganji
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Posted - 2010.04.15 04:10:00 -
[3]
Thanks, I didn't know that. If it's legal, that's fine. Now if only people ingame could have told me that instead of insulting me, I wouldn't have been so mad. Thanks very much for the info.
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Zartrader
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Posted - 2010.04.15 05:27:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Zartrader on 15/04/2010 05:28:05
Originally by: Deganji Thanks, I didn't know that. If it's legal, that's fine. Now if only people ingame could have told me that instead of insulting me, I wouldn't have been so mad. Thanks very much for the info.
You may have got some grief as this topic comes up often. The latest post is here http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1300185
There's some players that insist on missioning in mission hubs for no apparent reason so they cry now and again about it (they look at the quality of an agent and the corp they work for as the only factor in rewards when there are several others too) Ninja Salvagers are easy to avoid and you will make more ISK per hour doing so on top of the salvage saved.
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dtyk
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Posted - 2010.04.15 11:43:00 -
[5]
Edited by: dtyk on 15/04/2010 11:44:25
Originally by: Deganji I asked ingame in the help channel, but was told to "tell my mom". Is the playerbase here the same as WoW? I was hoping for better.
Believe me, it is better. It's just that this exact same issue comes up approximately 10 times per day, usually accompanied with a truckload of whines, so people get a little tired of hearing about it for the umpteenth time, especially if it seems like the person asking the question is whining/about to start whining.
Considering how clearly and how often this has been answered, and how easy ninja salvaging is to avoid, people get ****ed off when someone brings it up again, especially if it's done in a way that even remotely suggest the possibility of whining.
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Zartrader
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Posted - 2010.04.15 12:03:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Zartrader on 15/04/2010 12:04:31
Just to add there are several topics that can cause bad reactions. The reason is, as said, they come up often (you would not know that of course) On is Ninja Salvaging, another getting people out of NPC Corporations, another is how easy it is to avoid wardecs, another is how the game is pure PVP and everyone should be attackable at all times and a few more I can't think of right now. Moaners on these topics often use bait and switch tactics to reopen old and tired conversations about it (there's several examples on these forums right now)
Anyway, this community is nothing like WOW, trust me. But EVE players do hate moaners so 99% of WOW posters would be laughed off the forums.
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Ka choop
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Posted - 2010.04.15 13:03:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Zartrader Anyway, this community is nothing like WOW, trust me. But EVE players do hate moaners so 99% of WOW posters would be laughed off the forums.
Is this also a bait? The mandatory WoW bashing?
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Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
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Posted - 2010.04.15 13:48:00 -
[8]
pretty much, although tbh most of it is justified in my view. There have been some epic whines over the years from players who mentioned they've come from WoW and were whining about how eve isnt like wow and should be, hence the low tolerance level for commonly voiced complaints and the use of wow as the default derogatory MMO.
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O'Kurru
Gallente Castle Amber
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Posted - 2010.04.15 14:17:00 -
[9]
I just had to laugh... the part about 'tell your mother'.... Being the IRL age I am, and the fact I've played since the early 1990's It dawned on me that I could truthfully say "Eve isn't your Grandmothers' MMO"
...but then I paused and thought about that...
You know, Ultima Online was the biggest "Sandbox" game of it's day.
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Kia Tor
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Posted - 2010.04.15 14:31:00 -
[10]
Personally, I think a BETTER FORUM SEARCH ENGINE would help solve the problem of questions asked multiple times. A lot of noobs don't know about Eve-search
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Deganji
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Posted - 2010.04.15 20:03:00 -
[11]
I did ask in the newbie help, I thought. I wasn't trying to troll ingame. I was a little shocked at the responses they gave, since I'd had great info given other times I asked questions. Sorry, I was a little upset ingame, and when I posted this.
I didn't mean to cause problems. This wasn't a whine or anything, just an honest question from a newbie. I'll start looking up my questions better from now on, I don't want to be a bother ingame or out. I'm sorry if I made anyone mad.
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Zartrader
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Posted - 2010.04.15 20:18:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Zartrader on 15/04/2010 20:21:11
Originally by: Deganji I did ask in the newbie help, I thought. I wasn't trying to troll ingame. I was a little shocked at the responses they gave, since I'd had great info given other times I asked questions. Sorry, I was a little upset ingame, and when I posted this.
I didn't mean to cause problems. This wasn't a whine or anything, just an honest question from a newbie. I'll start looking up my questions better from now on, I don't want to be a bother ingame or out. I'm sorry if I made anyone mad.
You didn't make anyone mad and your question was quite valid.
The ingame noob help channel is terrible despite the best efforts of the mods there (who are volunteer players) they should dump it really. Its full of complete idiots.
There is a unwritten rule about giving new players a hard time on the new player forums but sometimes that slips a bit. If you want to see real discussion styles in EVE you can look at the other forums, especially Corporation, Alliance and Organisation Discussions (CAOD) or Warfare and Tactics. EVE is a complex game and a lot of it is actually played on the forums as PVP.
Once you realise its all just a game and most others think the same you will grow a thicker skin when it comes to EVE. The mods here are fairly relaxed and allow a lot of argument and discussion other games would not, some of which can get very heated. This is in tune with the game itself.
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Nika Dekaia
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Posted - 2010.04.15 21:09:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Zartrader
Originally by: Deganji I did ask in the newbie help, I thought. I wasn't trying to troll ingame. I was a little shocked at the responses they gave, since I'd had great info given other times I asked questions. Sorry, I was a little upset ingame, and when I posted this.
I didn't mean to cause problems. This wasn't a whine or anything, just an honest question from a newbie. I'll start looking up my questions better from now on, I don't want to be a bother ingame or out. I'm sorry if I made anyone mad.
You didn't make anyone mad and your question was quite valid.
The ingame noob help channel is terrible despite the best efforts of the mods there (who are volunteer players) they should dump it really. Its full of complete idiots.
True that.
Originally by: Zartrader There is a unwritten rule about giving new players a hard time on the new player forums but sometimes that slips a bit.
Anywhere BUT the EVE New Citizens Q&A Forum is where new players are beeing given a hard time, actually.
Originally by: Zartrader If you want to see real discussion styles in EVE you can look at the other forums, especially Corporation, Alliance and Organisation Discussions (CAOD) or Warfare and Tactics. EVE is a complex game and a lot of it is actually played on the forums as PVP.
I see what you did there.
Originally by: Zartrader Once you realise its all just a game and most others think the same you will grow a thicker skin when it comes to EVE. The mods here are fairly relaxed and allow a lot of argument and discussion other games would not, some of which can get very heated. This is in tune with the game itself.
True words.
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2010.04.15 21:31:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk on 15/04/2010 21:33:50
Rule # 1. Don't base your understanding of how the game works on casual, off the cuff remarks made by CCP personel. Read the rules. The Player Guide on Salvaging states:
Quote: CONCORD allows the salvaging of other players wrecks. Salvaging does not trigger an aggression countdown. This includes a wreck which has not been emptied by the player who owns it.
Please note how time and again the CCP personnel quoted above are WRONG in the details of what they say.
The fundamental fact here is: THE WRECKS BELONG TO THE PLAYER WHO CREATED THEM BUT HE HAS NO RECOURSE IF ANOTHER SALVAGES THEM.
1) The rules state that the wrecks belong to the player who created them. 2) The rules state that other people can salvage them without being flagged. 3) Wrecks that belong to a player are WHITE to that player, his corporation and his fleet. 4) Wrecks that do NOT belong to a player who is neither in that players corporation or fleet are YELLOW. 5) Wrecks that belong to a player or his corporation or fleet can be tractored by them. 6) Wrecks that do NOT belong to a player who is neither in the owning players corporation or fleet can NOT be tractored by him.
I tell ya - I am as sick of people mistakenly stating how the rules work as they are of people whining about them. It isn't that these people have it all wrong. They understand the concept - they just are saying things which are not true - and there was something WRONG with every single one of those CCP quotes - EVER SINGLE FRAKKING ONE OF THEM.
The message - that anyone can salvage any wreck they can beat someone else to - that got through - but owner ship of the wrecks - and the fact that taking them was stealing didn't.
People steal things all the time in EVE. Most of it isn't punishable. If stealing someone elses salvage were punishable - it would be the exception. As a matter of fact - stealing loot IS the only thing punishable (that I am aware of) - though not by Concord.
Scamming another player - is perfectly allowable by the rules of this game. All the societies on the face of this planet consider scamming someone out of their money or property a crime - but in EVE - it is legitimate game play.
So - why the hell do people get so upset when someone accuses them of stealing - when they have? Stealing from each other IS PART OF THIS GAME. Why pretend like it isn't?
People call themselves PIRATES in this game. What the hell do they think PIRATES ARE? Pirates steal. They are liars, they are cheats, they are murderers and - they steal. If you're going to call yourself a pirate - and someone accuses you of stealing - why the hell are you upset about it? And - if you aren't upset about it - why the hell are you so defensive?
Further more - why the hell do pirates (or ninjas) act like the person they stole from isn't supposed to get upset about it? Making people upset is the primary reason they do it. Trust me. Salvaging - by itself - is as boring as mining. If they couldn't make people upset - they'd be off doing something else that would.
*shrug*
Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools |
Chuck Sands
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Posted - 2010.04.15 21:55:00 -
[15]
You will come to expect jerk replies on the forum.
Why?
Because EVE attracts jerks. It is crammed full of them. This game is the best outlet ever invented to act like a raging jack hole. You will become used to and amused by it, or you will quit.
Or you could always become a jerk yourself. This is a true sandbox. A sandbox full of insecure nerds. (Of course I am happy to be one myself.)
Have fun!
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Nika Dekaia
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Posted - 2010.04.15 22:10:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk The fundamental fact here is: THE WRECKS BELONG TO THE PLAYER WHO CREATED THEM BUT HE HAS NO RECOURSE IF ANOTHER SALVAGES THEM.
The fundametal fact here is that you are wrong. The wreck belongs to nobody.
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk 1) The rules state that the wrecks belong to the player who created them.
lol Quote that, please.
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk 2) The rules state that other people can salvage them without being flagged.
That is correct, actually. Contradict, much?
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk 3) Wrecks that belong to a player are WHITE to that player, his corporation and his fleet. 4) Wrecks that do NOT belong to a player who is neither in that players corporation or fleet are YELLOW. 5) Wrecks that belong to a player or his corporation or fleet can be tractored by them. 6) Wrecks that do NOT belong to a player who is neither in the owning players corporation or fleet can NOT be tractored by him.
Whatever.
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk I tell ya - I am as sick of people mistakenly stating how the rules work as they are of people whining about them. It isn't that these people have it all wrong. They understand the concept - they just are saying things which are not true - and there was something WRONG with almost every single one of those CCP quotes.
Sure that. The CCP quotes are not coherent at all.
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk The message - that anyone can salvage any wreck they can beat someone else to - that got through - but owner ship of the wrecks - and the fact that taking them was stealing didn't.
Obviously not to all careabears.
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk People steal things all the time in EVE. Most of it isn't punishable. If stealing someone elses salvage were punishable - it would be the exception. As a matter of fact - stealing loot IS the only thing punishable (that I am aware of) - though not by Concord.
Scamming another player - is perfectly allowable by the rules of this game. All the societies on the face of this planet consider scamming someone out of their money or property a crime - but in EVE - it is legitimate game play.
Correct. It's legitimate gameplay.
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk So - why the hell do people get so upset when someone accuses them of stealing - when they have? Stealing from each other IS PART OF THIS GAME. Why pretend like it isn't?
Pirates (and salvagers) don't get upset. They know what they are doing (doing their job, that is).
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk People call themselves PIRATES in this game. What the hell do they think PIRATES ARE? Pirates steal. They are liars, they are cheats, they are murderers and - they steal. If you're going to call yourself a pirate - and someone accuses you of stealing - why the hell are you upset about it? And - if you aren't upset about it - why the hell are you so defensive?
They are not upset, they are not defensive - they LOVE IT.
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk Further more - why the hell do pirates (or ninjas) act like the person they stole from isn't supposed to get upset about it? Making people upset is the primary reason they do it. Trust me. Salvaging - by itself - is as boring as mining. If they couldn't make people upset - they'd be off doing something else that would.
*shrug*
Yes. So what? That's what it's all about.
Are you actually for or against salvaging? Your post is somewhat....irritating.
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2010.04.15 23:08:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk on 15/04/2010 23:11:15
Personally I couldn't care less whether or not people ninja salvage. If they come after my wrecks - I'll just try and beat them to them - if I can't *shrug* that's just part of the game.
That said - I am going to do all I can to keep people from getting my wrecks. It's like anything else you do - you think about where you are - what you're doing and how someone else might come take advantage of you - and then act accordingly.
We compete with each other all the time in EVE - this is just one more form of competition.
The issue isn't whether or not one is for or against ninja salvaging.
That doesn't matter.
What matters are the rules.
Ninja salvaging is allowed by the rules - because - the rules allow stealing. They just aren't flagged for it - the same way they wouldn't be flagged for it if you got out of your ship, (for whatever reason) and someone jumped in and took it. Just because you aren't punished for stealing in EVE doesn't mean that it isn't stealing.
The rules refer to the wrecks as being owned by the person who created them. I just quoted that section. If they are owned by one player and another player takes them without them being abandoned or without his permission - then that is stealing.
Perhaps the problem is a deficiency in the English Language by CCP. After all, they come from a Viking back ground - and Vikings WERE pirates. Maybe in the view of Vikings (I don't know, I'm just speculating) stealing is only defined as such - when someone else steals from YOU. If you take something from THEM - then - since you ended up with it - it wasn't stealing. The rest of the English speaking world - does not share that definition.
The comments following my post were illustrative of the points I made about being defensive.
All I said was that people in EVE steal from each other all the time - and that ninja salvaging was just part of that.
*shrug*
But - any references to nerdish behavior on my part would be accurate. It is after all the behavior of nerds to insist on actually speaking of things as they are - rather than as people perceive them to be.
Most people do not speak to exchange information - but to exchange emotions. Thus the comment asking if I was for or against ninja salvaging. The basic idea is that I had to be either for it or against it. As I said - I don't care. It's part of the rules of EVE that we are allowed to steal from each other - and in most cases there is no punishment for it.
In fact - most of the time that loot is stolen - it is a trick to try and get the person being stolen from to open themselves up to destruction by attacking the thief. So - even what scant remedy there is to theft in this game - can be turned around against the person seeking redress.
And - yes - there are some jackasses in this game ... and you will see a lot of them in posts concerning Ninja Salvaging.
You see - these people see the forums as just another form of competition - not as a place to exchange information.
My post - was to point out that if you want to know what the rules are - don't rely on what someone else (including me) says they are - read them for yourself. The link is right there. That is the player guide - those are the rules.
Now ... in defense of the CCP personnel quoted - people tend to latch on to things that support their arguments - (see how all those posts were saved?) And making fine distinctions between the fact that theft being allowed - is not the same thing as it not being stealing - isn't something they always do - though they should. The trouble is ... what they really should do ... is look things up before they answer - and understand the meanings of words in English. But however bad CCP's English skills may be - they're better than my Icelandic ...
Another factor could be that CCP's approach is that "we define what stealing is" ... despite what the rest of the world thinks the word means.
*shrug*
Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools |
Cyprus Black
Caldari DARK HAT
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Posted - 2010.04.16 02:50:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Deganji Now if only people ingame could have told me that instead of insulting me
The reason people insulted you is because there are a small minority of players who spend every waking moment whining and complaining about it. They get off on making various alts to continue whining about it or starting new threads asking over and over and over why it's not banned yet. I guess they believe if they cry about something enough, they'll get their way.
We're sick of hearing it and shoot down anyone who brings it up. ___________________________________ "In the land of predators, the lion does not fear the jackal." -Dexter |
Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2010.04.16 11:34:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk on 16/04/2010 11:35:53
Originally by: Cyprus Black
Originally by: Deganji Now if only people ingame could have told me that instead of insulting me
The reason people insulted you is because there are a small minority of players who spend every waking moment whining and complaining about it. They get off on making various alts to continue whining about it or starting new threads asking over and over and over why it's not banned yet. I guess they believe if they cry about something enough, they'll get their way.
...
Sadly - their experience with other games may well have taught them that whining works. If enough people (no majority needed but it has to be more than a few) whine about something, eventually, the developers begin to think that a "balanced point of view" includes these peoples opinions. After that they begin considering implementing the change being so vociferously demanded and ... eventually they do.
I've seen it before - and usually to the detriment of the game.
SOE is known for that.
Look at Star Wars Galaxies (a stupid name if there ever was one ... there was only one galaxy in the movie). Everyone wanted to be a Jedi. Which was absurd. But the developers finally gave in - and ruined the game.
Planetside was the same way. The DuhEV's there gave in to the whiners on any number of issues and the game was always worse off for it.
Hopefully CCP won't be whiner driven. I don't really care either way what CCP does on this issue - but I'd hate for them to do something because they got whined into it.
Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools |
Riedle
Minmatar Origin. Black Legion.
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Posted - 2010.04.16 12:50:00 -
[20]
Quote: Ninja salvaging is allowed by the rules - because - the rules allow stealing. They just aren't flagged for it - the same way they wouldn't be flagged for it if you got out of your ship, (for whatever reason) and someone jumped in and took it. Just because you aren't punished for stealing in EVE doesn't mean that it isn't stealing.
Here is where you are having difficulties.
The wreck does belong to whoever created the wreck by blowing up the NPC. However, there is no value attached to it as salvage is not inherent to the wreck. You can apply the salvager to the wreck and get ZERO salvage. Also, the wreck will only produce salvage should a salvager be applied to it and create salvage from it.
If someone steals your salvage that you created, you will be flagged for it. But the person would have to jettison some from their cargohold first in order for this to happen.
Wrecks are potential salvage and wrecks, by themselves, have no value. They can drop loot that has value and they can be salvaged IF someone activates a salvager module on it.
So in short, salvaging someone else's wrecks is not theft because the wrecks are worthless. If you steal someone's salvage, you will be flagged for theft the very same way someone is if you steal loot or anything else from a cargo container.
If you understand these facts, it will help you to understand the mechanics.
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Zartrader
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Posted - 2010.04.16 14:13:00 -
[21]
Dear Op
As you can see from the replies some people actually think ninja salvaging is important and will happily rant about it for hours. Moving away from a mission hub means you may never see one again (and earn more ISK per hour) but some people have a brain block on that as it would ruin their reason to moan.
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2010.04.17 10:31:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Riedle
Quote:
...
The wreck does belong to whoever created the wreck by blowing up the NPC. However, there is no value attached to it as salvage is not inherent to the wreck.
...
Here is where you have your problem. The mere potential of salvage makes the wreck valuable. Saying that because the wreck merely has potential - makes it worthless - is absurd.
If the Mission Runner isn't going to salvage his wrecks - then they are of no value - to him.
But if he's getting all upset about it - then they obviously DO have value to him.
Of course - if the wrecks had no value to the Ninja - he wouldn't frakking be there - now would he?
Aaaaannnnndddd => yes. Staying away from mission hubs is a good idea.
But ... the same can be said for any busy system with a Level IV Agent in it.
I remember ... this one guy probes down my salvager destroyer - and he comes along in his little Minmatar frigate and he's salvaging some of my wrecks ... My first thought was "Ha! Ha! This is a Level I mission!!! Boy I hope you didn't have big hopes for getting rich!!" But I didn't say a thing. He kept competing with me for the wrecks for a while ... and then he went away ... I wonder why ...
Ha! Ha!
Yes ... yesss ... I know ... why was I salvaging a Level I mission? *shrug* I salvage all my missions (almost). I tend to watch the clock, then every couple of hours - just before the first wrecks expire I run around and salvage all the wreck fields. It doesn't take that long and when I'm done - I take a break.
Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools |
Zartrader
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Posted - 2010.04.17 17:09:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Zartrader on 17/04/2010 17:10:29
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk on 16/04/2010 11:35:53
Originally by: Cyprus Black
Originally by: Deganji Now if only people ingame could have told me that instead of insulting me
The reason people insulted you is because there are a small minority of players who spend every waking moment whining and complaining about it. They get off on making various alts to continue whining about it or starting new threads asking over and over and over why it's not banned yet. I guess they believe if they cry about something enough, they'll get their way.
...
Sadly - their experience with other games may well have taught them that whining works. If enough people (no majority needed but it has to be more than a few) whine about something, eventually, the developers begin to think that a "balanced point of view" includes these peoples opinions. After that they begin considering implementing the change being so vociferously demanded and ... eventually they do.
I've seen it before - and usually to the detriment of the game.
SOE is known for that.
Look at Star Wars Galaxies (a stupid name if there ever was one ... there was only one galaxy in the movie). Everyone wanted to be a Jedi. Which was absurd. But the developers finally gave in - and ruined the game.
Planetside was the same way. The DuhEV's there gave in to the whiners on any number of issues and the game was always worse off for it.
Hopefully CCP won't be whiner driven. I don't really care either way what CCP does on this issue - but I'd hate for them to do something because they got whined into it.
Yes that's very true, I've left games over it. The irony is, it does not stop the whiners at all, all non gamers, they just switch to something else they think needs dumbing down to their skill level, which is usually no skill at all.
A major reason I play EVE is because I think that although CCP listen they also realise the integrity of the game comes first. So I do not think they will be influenced by moaning alone.
Anyway its only a small minority and their alts, for most MR's this is simply a non issue as we either work with how it is or avoid it altogether, which is easy to do. I've still not had one reply stating why they insist on running missions in places like Motsu. That's fine by me though as I get a lot better rewards elsewhere (40% better) if they moved out it would inflate the game. Maybe that's why most MR's are keeping quiet and letting them moan away.
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Riedlim
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Posted - 2010.04.19 00:52:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
Originally by: Riedle
Quote:
...
The wreck does belong to whoever created the wreck by blowing up the NPC. However, there is no value attached to it as salvage is not inherent to the wreck.
...
Here is where you have your problem. The mere potential of salvage makes the wreck valuable. Saying that because the wreck merely has potential - makes it worthless - is absurd.
If the Mission Runner isn't going to salvage his wrecks - then they are of no value - to him.
But if he's getting all upset about it - then they obviously DO have value to him.
Of course - if the wrecks had no value to the Ninja - he wouldn't frakking be there - now would he?
Aaaaannnnndddd => yes. Staying away from mission hubs is a good idea.
But ... the same can be said for any busy system with a Level IV Agent in it.
I remember ... this one guy probes down my salvager destroyer - and he comes along in his little Minmatar frigate and he's salvaging some of my wrecks ... My first thought was "Ha! Ha! This is a Level I mission!!! Boy I hope you didn't have big hopes for getting rich!!" But I didn't say a thing. He kept competing with me for the wrecks for a while ... and then he went away ... I wonder why ...
Ha! Ha!
Yes ... yesss ... I know ... why was I salvaging a Level I mission? *shrug* I salvage all my missions (almost). I tend to watch the clock, then every couple of hours - just before the first wrecks expire I run around and salvage all the wreck fields. It doesn't take that long and when I'm done - I take a break.
That's.. nice?
The wreck without a salvager module activated on it has the same value as an asteroid does without a mining laser on it. NOTHING
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Solomar Espersei
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2010.04.19 20:16:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Solomar Espersei on 19/04/2010 20:16:59
Quote: It's just that this exact same issue comes up approximately 10 times per day, usually accompanied with a truckload of whines, so people get a little tired of hearing about it for the umpteenth time, especially if it seems like the person asking the question is whining/about to start whining.
Well, actually, some of us never tire of these threads and are highly amused by them.
It's been pointed out on so many occasions, Hell I've even pointed it out repeatedly, just get away from established mission hubs (or ninja hubs as we prefer to call them) and turn that ISK faucet on in some cozy backwater with fewer than 50 or so pilots in local. PROFIT. At this point in the development of ninja salvaging, which has been an established form of game play for around 2 years now, I believe mission runners in Motsu, Dodixie, etc. really just want to shoot at us or they're simply farming LPs and standings.
all the best, solomar |
Zartrader
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Posted - 2010.04.19 20:55:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Zartrader on 19/04/2010 20:58:55
Originally by: Solomar Espersei Edited by: Solomar Espersei on 19/04/2010 20:16:59
Quote: It's just that this exact same issue comes up approximately 10 times per day, usually accompanied with a truckload of whines, so people get a little tired of hearing about it for the umpteenth time, especially if it seems like the person asking the question is whining/about to start whining.
Well, actually, some of us never tire of these threads and are highly amused by them.
It's been pointed out on so many occasions, Hell I've even pointed it out repeatedly, just get away from established mission hubs (or ninja hubs as we prefer to call them) and turn that ISK faucet on in some cozy backwater with fewer than 50 or so pilots in local. PROFIT. At this point in the development of ninja salvaging, which has been an established form of game play for around 2 years now, I believe mission runners in Motsu, Dodixie, etc. really just want to shoot at us or they're simply farming LPs and standings.
That's the Irony. For rep you would speed grind as the other rewards are terrible, you want to get in, grind rep, out. So you would not care about ninja salvagers. And if you want something from the LP store its often available elsewhere anyway. If not you will earn a lot more LP in another corp, buy and sell items from them, then use the ISK to buy what you want on contract (often cheap too and with a big profit from extra LP's)
Most MR's worked this out a long time ago. Those that misunderstand game mechanics and think agent quality is the only factor in rewards and just follow the herd deserve what they get. The fact they are lazy and blame others as a first line of attack rather than actually THINK is apparent in their posts.
Some of us MR's are telling them, giving away our secrets (hardly a secret with an ounce of brains) but they still insist on moaning about a non issue.
When I went to Motsu for all of 2 days to grind rep it was hilarious the amount of Ravens outside the station. No wonder there are ninja salvagers there, it's like shooting fish in a barrel.
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar Special Projects Executive The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2010.04.19 21:36:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Deganji Can I ask why people aren't flagged when they salvage your wrecks? Seems a little silly that I could shoot them if they took my loot, but not if the steal salvage. I asked ingame in the help channel, but was told to "tell my mom". Is the playerbase here the same as WoW? I was hoping for better.
In all honesty, you'd be better off making friends with a couple of more experienced players and asking them questions than posting in the newbie help channel. It's pretty much useless, as others have pointed out.
Also, just in case no one posted it already (I didn't read the whole thread) www.eve-search.com (created by Eve's very own Chribba) can save you a lot of grief.
And heck, just because I'm in a nice mood, feel free to shoot me a note if you have questions, I can certainly take a stab at answering them. --Vel
Originally by: Jiseinoku
Mining is the path to enlightement.
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2010.04.20 01:24:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Riedlim
That's.. nice?
The wreck without a salvager module activated on it has the same value as an asteroid does without a mining laser on it. NOTHING
You have a nice day now.
Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools |
Riedle
Minmatar Origin. Black Legion.
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Posted - 2010.04.20 13:50:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
Originally by: Riedlim
That's.. nice?
The wreck without a salvager module activated on it has the same value as an asteroid does without a mining laser on it. NOTHING
You have a nice day now.
You only stop learning once you figure you know it all.
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Ranka Mei
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.04.21 09:53:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Ranka Mei on 21/04/2010 09:54:23
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk Perhaps the problem is a deficiency in the English Language by CCP. After all, they come from a Viking back ground - and Vikings WERE pirates. Maybe in the view of Vikings (I don't know, I'm just speculating) stealing is only defined as such - when someone else steals from YOU.
No, the problem is that people do not have a sufficiently legally trained mind to understand what 'stealing' is.
Wrecks belong to the one who made them. So does the loot that's in them. People ninja-salvaging your stuff take what's not theirs... but that's NOT the definition of stealing. For stealing, taking away your goods needs to be unlawful. That's the crux. They take what isn't theirs; and that may suck; it's just not unlawful. -- Gorgeous, delicious, deculture! |
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