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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
buttesauce
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Posted - 2010.03.25 08:09:00 -
[61]
Dont nerf the dramiel!
Make the other ships better!
Every ship should be viable to use!
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.03.25 08:47:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 25/03/2010 08:47:56
Originally by: buttesauce Dont nerf the dramiel!
Make the other ships better!
Every ship should be viable to use!
On another forum I took this facile statement and tried modelling the boost to the Worm that would be necessary for it to be balanced with the Dramiel. I used the following assumptions:
1. Since the Dramiel has twice the speed and three times the acceleration, and since mobilty is so important in frigates, the Worm must easily destroy the Dramiel if it can tackle it.
2. The Worm must be able to apply some level of DPS to an untackled Dramiel, because its weapons systems (drones, SMLs) are designed to be used against such a ship.
The current Worm can't do either. The Dramiel is fast enough to outrun Warriors and LMs when untackled. So it needs a greater missile velocity bonus and a drone damage and speed bonus. Close in, the Worm has just over half the DPS of the Dramiel and similar EHP, considering weapon damage types. Result - even if the Worm can catch the Dramiel, the Dramiel just ganks it in its face and flies off. So it needs more DPS. A lot more DPS. Enough to substantially outweigh the 200 DPS of an overheated Dramiel - because otherwise, what's the point?
But there's another problem - it can't gank what it can't keep tackled. And it can't keep tackled a ship that does over 1000 m/s webbed and scrambled. So it needs a web strength bonus.
End result - to be balanced with the Dramiel, Worm would need 200% missile damage bonus, 20%/level missile velocity bonus, 10%/level web strength bonus and 10%/level drone damage, EHP and speed.
You might think that such a Worm is stupid. I'd agree. But so is the current Dramiel.
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1600 RT
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Posted - 2010.03.25 09:24:00 -
[63]
dramiel is fine. but if anything need to happen: leave the dramiel as it is stat wise move 1 mid to 1 low result it wont be able to dual prop and tank or web + tank, if the pilots want some form of a tank they will have to armor tank it wich its not good for speed.
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CinaneK
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Posted - 2010.03.25 10:25:00 -
[64]
Stop crying about dramiels power ..
1. Thorax - 1600mm RT + web + scrambler + AB + 4x small neutrons + 1 neut + 5 hobgoblins eats dramiel easy (3x trimark if u want)(this is already tried by me and tooks only 10 shoots to kill dramiel) 2. Stabber - LSE + 4x 180mm autocannon + 1 neut eats dramiel easy (3x shield extender if u want)
i can fly dramiel and i can say for sure its not so imbalanced and u can pwn him solo whit t1 cruisers fitted to 20 mil ISK - dramiel got much better DPS then any of these 2 ships, but, try to brake the TANK whit that ... EHP makes everything
web him, scramble him, neut him so he cant use even his Afterburner till he orbiting and just look how ur drones + turrets eat his shield down
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chrisss0r
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Posted - 2010.03.25 10:55:00 -
[65]
Originally by: CinaneK
web him, scramble him, neut him so he cant use even his Afterburner till he orbiting and just look how ur drones + turrets eat his shield down
wow thx, i'm sure no one has ever thought of that
btw: 10 km/s curses are not overpowered, you just have to scram, web and neut them while stomping them to death with alot of dps :P
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Dead3y3
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Posted - 2010.03.25 12:11:00 -
[66]
Hmm...I have quite a few Dramiel kills.
Dram Kill 1 Dram Kill 2 Dram Kill 3
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Calydonian Boar
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Posted - 2010.03.25 12:31:00 -
[67]
I still don't understand how you managed to lose a cane to a dramiel... do you have killmail posted somewhere?
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Stuart Price
Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2010.03.25 12:42:00 -
[68]
I do almost nothing but fly frigates in solo and small gang pvp. I can fly every single frigate ever (and have actually flown most of them, in pvp).
The Dramiel is overpowered. By a very, very long way. It's not even an opinion, it's plain fact. Literally the ONLY reason I would ever use one of my other frigs is to look less threatening and actually get more fights.
"Whaaaaaaaaaa stop whining (insert irrelevant argument here) nub".
1. Expensive ships should be better. Not only does this logic lead to "the most expensive ship should therefore be the best" but misses the point that CCP do not directly set the prices. It is expensive because people will pay that much for one and only a complete idiot would sell for less!
2. (Ship + setup) kills Dramiels easily. Learn to fly nub. Name one frigate it WON'T kill. Oh dear, you proved nothing except its possible to create dedicated anti-frigate ships that do nothing to prove or disprove the lack of balance withing the frigate class itself.
3. Here's a killmail where I killed a Dram with another frigate. Yes well some people just can't fly or fit ships to save their lives. You killed an idiot, well done. There's a MUCH bigger list of times where competent pilots in Dramiels have owned the crap out of stuff.
Ultimately though, I can rest assured that I'm right. History has shown that there are always people willing to defend the indefensible.
There were people who thought Stabberbonds were fine. There were people who thought the old nano-nos Curse was fine. There were people who thought the Gankageddon was fine.
And so on and so on. It WILL get nerfed, so we may as well accept that it's currently insane and enjoy it while it lasts. Putting the 'irate' into 'Pirate' |
inyreye
GK inc.
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Posted - 2010.03.25 13:01:00 -
[69]
CCP boosted faction frigates to be better than their t1 or t2 counterparts, that was the whole point.
And don't ***** at CCP for making them expensive, blame the angel mission runners and NPCers. ISK and LP wise, the dramiel costs 1/3 LESS to build than your standard empire faction frigate (see imperial slicer, which is selling for 28 million).
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2010.03.25 13:07:00 -
[70]
The main point Merin is trying to make that everyone seems to have conveniently ignored, well, in fact I'll sum it up with this:
Scenario: you are skilled and funded enough for every frigate, t2, pirate etc. and need a "general purpose" one (i.e not a nichT thing like a Kitsune or Sentinel) and are picking based on sheer effectiveness. This also assumes you can competantly fly them all.
Try to justify using anything other than the Dramiel.
Personally I'm in favour of the midslot removal, make it pick between dual prop and tank because as it stands now - where exactly is the weakness of this ship? It's got everything. With one single fit. _________________________________
Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
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chrisss0r
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Posted - 2010.03.25 14:02:00 -
[71]
Originally by: inyreye CCP boosted faction frigates to be better than their t1 or t2 counterparts, that was the whole point.
yes but not being better than all of them in every single attribute at the same time. In choice theory the dramiel just dominates all other options
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.03.25 14:03:00 -
[72]
It's got too much DPS as well. It's fine being the fastest and quickest-accelerating frigate out there, but being able to into scrambler range and apply 200 DPS is just insane. Add decent buffer and the GTFO ability that 1 km/s speed while webbed and scrambled gives you... and capless damage-mostly-selectable weapons...
The acceleration thing is a bit silly too. A typical Worm fit might have 3.1 km/s speed with an align time of 4.4 s. That means that it takes 4.4 s to accelerate to 2325 m/s, an average acceleration of 530 m/ss. A typical Dramiel might have 5.6 km/s speed with an align time of 3.2 s, giving an average acceleration to 75% speed of 1300 m/ss. The Dramiel has over twice the speed, almost three times the acceleration and much more DPS.
It's insane. As in, completely-bat****-mental insane. Having speed is fine. Having lightning-quick acceleration in conjunction is not, neither is having 200 DPS to gank anything that can catch you.
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El Mauru
Amarr EVERYTHING IS TERRIBLE
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Posted - 2010.03.25 14:09:00 -
[73]
Edited by: El Mauru on 25/03/2010 14:09:42 the dramiel doesn't really need a big nerf:
Even a slight nudge in any of these directions would help. Some options which might help level the playing field without fully disposing of its awesomeness:
- decrease its locking range/time so it becomes more difficult to actually tackle stuff with it properly.
- increase its sig radius so it can be hit more easily by missiles/at range.
- lowering its effective hit-points or capacitor-recharge/capacity so it becomes more of a one-trick pony.
- make it drastically more difficult to overheat.
Just one of these changes would make it more vulnerable without doing away with what makes the bloody thing so much fun to fly. I'm firmly against removing its ability to dual-prop because that aspect offers so much interesting tactical diversity.
To repeat myself: I'm perfectly fine with it being the best frigate- it's just the margin by which it dominates which is giving me headaches. Please re-size your signature to the maximum allowed file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist |
Captain Organs
Amarr Standings Increase
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Posted - 2010.03.25 14:11:00 -
[74]
My friends and I went out looking for some fights and we came across two dramiels. We were in a Vexor, Enyo and Ishkur. We lost all our ships. Didn't even kill one dramiel. We had them webbed and scrammed we managed to get them into hull but when we did they'd just move outside of our own range and get away. The two Assault frigates were Afterburner fit. I am for nerfing the dramiel. I can't explain any reason not to fly them. Especially reading the posts in this topic.
I understand that Factions ships cost a lot more than your typical T1 frigate or even your T2 frigate and they should have a leg up. However, it shouldn't be a hands down win. Especially when they're outnumbered and have a cruiser class ship. I must admit the guy in the Vexor was newer to pew pewing. But the two AF pilots were seasoned in frigate combat.
It's no one attribute of the dramiel that makes it broken. It's the combination of a bunch of things.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.03.25 14:12:00 -
[75]
Just to make sure everyone realise that there are more than one pirate frigate in need of attention.
Originally by: masternerdguy Worm Able to store 5 light drones right off the bat.
It needs a 10% bonus to drone dmg per level of caldari frig It also needs a 5% bonus to shield resistance and shield capacity per caldari frig.
Resistance plus capacity just pigeon-holes them into using medium extender buffers. If such a capacity bonus is to be then fittings need to be tweaked so we have to make some hard choices or fork over the ISK if going for maximum cookie cutter. Give it a static 50m3 dronebay, 25m3 bandwidth and the drone damage/hp bonus -> miniature Gila/Rattlesnake.
Last pirate frigate that is often forgotten is the now rather mediocre Succubus. It doesn't do anything except track like a champion, that is no role for a hard-as-nails pirate ship. To fix: - Add 100m/s to base speed, keep mass/agility as is. - Swap Caldari frigate bonus from 5% damage to 10% range. Make it a shield based souped up Slicer. - Move utility to low and increase CPU to allow twin HS + DCU + rest.
Why: - Because it is slow as hell even for a frigate. With its mass/agility inherited from the Caldari it wont be a major kiting boat regardless of speed. - Because all the tracking in the world wont help you if you cant catch/reach the enemy. - Because the twin-neut/neut-nos utility setup is covered in spades by the Cruor and Sansha is all about gank (more HS!)
Managed to not mention the infernal one \o\ \o/ /o/
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2010.03.25 14:20:00 -
[76]
give intys a bonus to overheating boost percentage.
overheated mwd to 10km/s for a burst or two, BAM overheated scrambler = one tackled dram.
intys hsould be fastest in game even if not all the time made them better at catching stuff (like their piont range bonus does atm).
thats the solution, the dram is perfectly good at what it does by similar margins the other angel ships are. Maybe the 3 drones are slightly overkill, but not major.
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Kessiaan
Minmatar Vagrants Inc
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Posted - 2010.03.25 14:46:00 -
[77]
T1 > T2 > Faction is fine
What's broke about the Dramiel is that it's a pirate AF and a pirate inty in one hull. Like all FOTM ships it attracts bad pilots like flies to ****, so yes, if you're somewhat competent you'll get some solo Dramiel kills. But against pilots who actually know what they're doing the best you can do in anything other than a specialized anti-Dramiel fit is drive them off, much like the old nano boats.
I think the best solution I've heard so far is move a mid to a low. It retains the versatility to be either a super AF or a super interceptor, but not both at the same time like it is now. I think the entire lineup of faction frigs needs a serious look at, there shouldn't be just one that is clearly superior.
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Meeko Atari
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Posted - 2010.03.25 15:06:00 -
[78]
On a side note...
I find it very hypocritical that CCP would claim that ships need to go slower for "server performance" then introduce ships that can approach / exceed that speed limit.
I do not like nerfs
I feel that frig speeds and agility should be increased ( to at least Angel specs ) across the entire ship class.
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Jotobar
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Posted - 2010.03.25 15:11:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Stuart Price It WILL get nerfed, so we may as well accept that it's currently insane and enjoy it while it lasts.
That's exactly my view on it aswell. Follows the usual mmo patch/expansion/addition recepie: Something changes, advanced players understand how to abuse the change, it becomes popular with those adapting and unpopular with those not adapting, if it's too strong it gets changed next iteration.
Don't belive there's anything wrong with that, it's a reward for an early adaptor, they got to abuse the change longer than the ones that joined late or didn't join at all.
fake edit: don't fly em myself and avoid fighting them mostly.
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Zhilia Mann
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Posted - 2010.03.25 16:07:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Give it a static 50m3 dronebay, 25m3 bandwidth and the drone damage/hp bonus -> miniature Gila/Rattlesnake.
Wait, a really solid drone-based frigate?
I think I love you.
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Last pirate frigate that is often forgotten is the now rather mediocre Succubus. It doesn't do anything except track like a champion, that is no role for a hard-as-nails pirate ship. To fix: - Add 100m/s to base speed, keep mass/agility as is. - Swap Caldari frigate bonus from 5% damage to 10% range. Make it a shield based souped up Slicer. - Move utility to low and increase CPU to allow twin HS + DCU + rest.
Why: - Because it is slow as hell even for a frigate. With its mass/agility inherited from the Caldari it wont be a major kiting boat regardless of speed. - Because all the tracking in the world wont help you if you cant catch/reach the enemy. - Because the twin-neut/neut-nos utility setup is covered in spades by the Cruor and Sansha is all about gank (more HS!)
Have to agree here too. I was hoping to hop into a mini-Phantasm and instead got.... Nothing. Moar HS indeed; I still haven't found a good use for the utilities.
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Managed to not mention the infernal one \o\ \o/ /o/
And for that I salute you.
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Gibbo3771
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Posted - 2010.03.25 16:21:00 -
[81]
Paying 200mil for a frig + fit, its not overpowered....daredevil gets like 450 dps, dramiel gets like 180.
Whoever said the dramiel gets same dps as an af, reli fails at fittng there af. Can get my ishkur uptoo 250dps and the enyo to 300.
Only thing a dramiel has dfferent than a t2 frig is speed, so your paying n extra 100mil for the "gtfo" capability
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Boss Lemming
Gallente BOUNTY. HUNTER. MINING. EXSPLORATION. CORPORATION. HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.03.25 16:44:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Boss Lemming on 25/03/2010 16:44:10
Originally by: Gibbo3771 Paying 200mil for a frig + fit, its not overpowered....daredevil gets like 450 dps, dramiel gets like 180.
Whoever said the dramiel gets same dps as an af, reli fails at fittng there af. Can get my ishkur uptoo 250dps and the enyo to 300.
Only thing a dramiel has dfferent than a t2 frig is speed, so your paying n extra 100mil for the "gtfo" capability
How mentally deficient are you? It's expensive because it's overpowered, not the other way around.
edit: ****ing ******ed word filter
Originally by: Alchemist's Alt I stopped mining because you mean pirates kept blowing me up.[...] now I am doing all the blowing up. Shadow
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2010.03.25 16:47:00 -
[83]
Dramiel needs to lose its drone bay. Drones give it too many options and firepower at range.
Thats all thats needed to fix the Dram.
Worm needs more love. 50m3 drone bay as standard , 25 drone bandwidth. 10% to drone hit points and damage per gal frigate level and 5% to shield resists per cal frigate level should fix it.
Yeah it still wont be able to take on a dram , but it's be a very nice frig for drone fp.
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eXtas
NibbleTek
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Posted - 2010.03.25 16:51:00 -
[84]
I agree with the dramiel not beeing balanced at all compared to other frigs. it needs a nerf, not a huge one since it should be good beeing a faction ship but atm its just too good frig killer and takler and dps ship at the same time.
- slots are fine, maybe remove litle pg to make it harder to fit - damagebonus and turrets are fine - speed is fine, maybe add a litle mass to make it more balanced - drones are not fine!!! 3 lights + 1 spare???? just removing the drone bay would balance the ship bringing it from the ship that does all to just a good takler that can kill some frigs. - lockingrange/scan res are way to high compared to other frigs
not all these changes are needed but allready some would balance it.
atm it gets the best from both claw and stiletto + drones and beter stats.
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Kendon Riddick
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Posted - 2010.03.25 16:54:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Boss Lemming Edited by: Boss Lemming on 25/03/2010 16:44:10
Originally by: Gibbo3771 Paying 200mil for a frig + fit, its not overpowered....daredevil gets like 450 dps, dramiel gets like 180.
Whoever said the dramiel gets same dps as an af, reli fails at fittng there af. Can get my ishkur uptoo 250dps and the enyo to 300.
Only thing a dramiel has dfferent than a t2 frig is speed, so your paying n extra 100mil for the "gtfo" capability
How mentally deficient are you? It's expensive because it's overpowered, not the other way around.
edit: ****ing ******ed word filter
dont flame him for being correct, you are ignorant.
the faction frigs are all player found/made the supply is always way way higher than the number available, yes a good ship will be even more expensive.
by your rationale the daredevil should be better than the dram, but it isnt.
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Boss Lemming
Gallente BOUNTY. HUNTER. MINING. EXSPLORATION. CORPORATION. HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.03.25 17:18:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Kendon riddick by your rationale the daredevil should be better than the dram, but it isnt.
Point out to me where I said that the only reason something can be expensive is because it's overpowered.
Spoiler: you can't
Originally by: Alchemist's Alt I stopped mining because you mean pirates kept blowing me up.[...] now I am doing all the blowing up. Shadow
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Terianna Eri
Amarr Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
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Posted - 2010.03.25 17:52:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Gibbo3771 Paying 200mil for a frig + fit, its not overpowered....daredevil gets like 450 dps, dramiel gets like 180.
Whoever said the dramiel gets same dps as an af, reli fails at fittng there af. Can get my ishkur uptoo 250dps and the enyo to 300.
Only thing a dramiel has dfferent than a t2 frig is speed, so your paying n extra 100mil for the "gtfo" capability
Dramiel has around 180 DPS with drones which is roughly AF-level. It's not more than all the AFs but it's on par with them (retribution, way more than vengeance, harpy, etc).
Also dramiels don't cost anywhere near 200 mil, I just bought one today (might as well jump on the bandwagon while it lasts) for like 85-90 with fit... ________________
Originally by: CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2010.03.25 17:58:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 25/03/2010 17:59:28
Originally by: Obsidian Hawk
Dear CCP
I don't know how to fit the following on my ships.
Web Neut webber drones neut drones smart bombs.
Quoting for hilarity.
Webber drones on frigates, against frigates? Oh dear...
Neut drones, true monsters of efficiency against capneutral turrets...
Smart bombs, wtf? Everything apart from large smartbombs is flat out broken
Thanks for your advice, but try to actually fly a frigate in pvp or at the very least open up EFT and check the stats of the items and ships in question before posting nonsense like the above.
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Ephemeron
Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates
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Posted - 2010.03.25 19:17:00 -
[89]
There's another battle of ideology here.
It's starting to look more and more like the Nano-Nerf debate, which spanned 100+ pages in several threads. I gained quite a bit of insight in how people think about these things.
The conflicting ideologies are: 1) belief that the price of destroyable item does not play any role in the power balance of that item 2) belief that price of item is part of the balance
It seems to me that the confusion arises mostly from past experiences of computer games. In most multiplayer games, there is no serious economic element. In addition to that, people often have a narrow view of "fair" competition. They may think it's fair to have a 2 on 1 fight between battleships, but not fair if the 1 battleship pilot has much more money and invested it in powerful expensive modules that make him superior to the 2 enemies.
Just that idea that 1 can beat 2 because he invested more economic resources is hard to comprehend for some people. It goes against their ideology of game balance.
But EVE is an economic game. Most of the things in EVE are produced and destroyed, things have real value, that requires real work to obtain. True game balance is intimately integrated with economic aspects. The economic value of things has real impact on who fights who, who wins and who loses. It is a greater dimension of PvP balance. And too many people are blind to that other dimension, they see things in their flat world and they get angry because it doesn't make sense to them.
Anyway, right now I'm seen a big anti-Nano Nerf supporter, just as now I am seen as big Dramiel supporter. But ironically, I firmly believe in the need to nerf in both cases. I am simply against the drastic changes people call for when they are over reacting in anger. All the Nano-Nerf needed was a change in polycarbon rigs from 15% to 10% bonus.
I want to nerf Dramiel by increasing its cost by 70 million. I believe that gently shifts balance in favor of other ships without destroying unique diversity of interplay between tactical PvP and economic PvP.
Ships like Dramiel are what makes EVE exciting.
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chrisss0r
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Posted - 2010.03.25 19:45:00 -
[90]
No it's because if i wanted biggest Sword = Win i'd play wow.
It's what i love about eve, spending lots of iskies on shiny endgame stuff does not entitle you to ****. You can fly a 3bill faction fitted bs and then a cruiser gang comes along and rips you to shreds.
being able to escape every time you want because you spent some iskies is just bull****
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