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Shurrurru
Varion Galactic
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Posted - 2010.02.21 08:52:00 -
[1]
It looks like on the way to Command Ships I'm going to be passing through the Logistics skill and it has me wondering if it's worth taking a detour to skill up the ability to use these.. In specific the Minmatar logistics ship.
The Scimitar has bonuses to Tracking Links and Shield Transporters which makes me wonder how valuble it is as a fleet ship. It seems most people I've talked to prefer an armor tank on most ships, allowing their midslots to be used for tackle instead. Is there any value to a ship that has bonuses in shield transfer? Even if the target has no shield modules would the bonus to shield be useful at all?
I wouldn't be using this as a ship for PvE purposes, I am purely asking about its PvP viability. If it's not worth using for PvP (either small group or larger fleets) then I will just skip the shield transporter skills and carry on to Command ships.
And while on the topic of this, how do Logistics cruisers compare to the remote-repair Battleship? With a BS containing signifigantly more powergrid and tank does it make the Logistics bonuses underwhelming or do they still have a place in fleets?
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.02.21 09:55:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Malcanis on 21/02/2010 09:56:44 Guardians are like voodoo for remote rep battleship fleets.
Scimis are similarly awesome for Drake and fast shield-HAC gangs
Oneiros is OK for RR BS
Basilisks are basically good for repping POS shield and not much else. I guess maybe for PvE they're good.
Note: you'll need several, well-organised Guardians and good fleet broadcast discipline for them to work well. A scimi can work OK with just one, a Guardian cant really.
NB: if you're going to fly Logistics, train the skill to 5. It really, really makes a difference.
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Sokratesz
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Posted - 2010.02.21 10:51:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Malcanis
NB: if you're going to fly Logistics, train the skill to 5. It really, really makes a difference.
Everything Malc said but this times a thousand. Due to the nature of reductive bonuses, training the skill from 4 - > 5 is as effective as training it from 1 -> 4 in the first place.
Want to test a supercap on SISI but don't have one? |
Grut
The Protei
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Posted - 2010.02.21 12:02:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Malcanis
Basilisks are basically good for repping POS shield and not much else. I guess maybe for PvE they're good.
A basi pair is uber in slower (bc+) shield gangs, drakes lub them. When their daisy chained up they can run 5 rrs to a scims 3.
Other then that agree with everything.
One extra note is that the armour and shield fleet commandships /t3 supercharge RR, over a 3rd more reppage for very little extra cap + the effective extra from increased resistances on the target. Kinsy > deadman you there? Kinsy > are either of us in pods, becase we dont know...
Mostly harmless [ 2005.12.09 19:22:50 ] (notify) You have started trying to warp scramble the Dreadnought |
Floyd Waters
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Posted - 2010.02.21 12:12:00 -
[5]
Eon #14 featured the logisics ships, as well as the first look at Tech 3 cruisers (the reason I got it in the first place). The wiki's got a good feed on them as well: http://wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/Item_Database:Ships:Logistics http://wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/Logistics_piloting
I've got an obscene love for the Logistics, so I'll do my best to pick it apart. Logistics ships like the Basilisk are gold for the few fleets I've flown with, especially when paired or set in a trio, as long as they stay mobile and with a good com situation they can increase the threat of any larger fleet massively.
Looking just at the ships they are nice. Every single one can lock 10 targets, at 60-80km range without adding skills. They Carry 2-3 turrets and maybe a launcher, their drones will run from a full flight of lights to a full flight of mediums. They are fast for cruisers with a small signature radius, so battleship guns and medium drones often get speed tanked.
To use them you need to stay mobile, and with the added range boosts they get they can contribute, while staying out of the thick of the fighting. Or in smaller gangs let the frigate close while you provide support while still on approach. More than one can lead to some nasty spider tanking situations.
Now let's look at the bonuses.
Now the only big difference between any of the Logistics ships as far as bonuses go is either the Shield/Armor Bias or the Energy/Tracking Link bias
It's all fun stuff but you could find the exact bonuses in the wiki, I'm going to sum them up so let's do some number crunching with Level 5 Skills for the dramatic effect and easier math.
The Bonuses fall into 5 areas
Shield Transporters: 750% Range bonus 75% Cap use reduction* -50% CPU required to fit
Energy Transfer Arrays: 750% Range bonus 75% Cap use reduction* -50% PowerGrid required to fit
Remote Armor Repair Systems: 750% Range bonus 75% Cap use reduction* -65% PowerGrid required to fit
Tracking Links: 750% Range Bonus 50% efficiency bonus.
Shield/Armor Maintenance Drones: +100% Transfer amount.
*a Note on the Cap reduction, there's also the 5%/level reduction for the respective skills needed to use them, I'm going to ignore these for the moment.
So the obvious part is that they have a stupid amount of range, and can fit Battle ship grade Arrays, as well as keep them running for an extended amount of time.
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Floyd Waters
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Posted - 2010.02.21 12:30:00 -
[6]
I went and crunched some numbers for the modules, also used Level 5 of thier required skill for the cap reduction.
For Large Energy Transfer Array II's
A Large Energy Transfer Array II will put out 351 cap at 9.75 km for 274.5 cap every 5 seconds. Fitting at 53CPU and 352 Powergrid and a High slot. On a Basilisk/Guardian though a Large Energy Transfer Array II will put out 351 cap at 73.125 km for 68.625 cap every 5 seconds. Fitting at 53CPU and 176 Powergrid and a High slot.
For Large Shield Transporter II's
The base unit puts out 384 HP for shields at 8.40 km for 210 cap every 4.5 seconds. Fitting needs 154CPU and 192 Powergrid and a High slot. A Basilisk/Scimitar puts out the same HP at 63 km for 52.5 cap every 4.5 seconds. Fitting needs 77CPU and 192 Powergrid and a High slot.
For Large Remote Armor Repair System II
The base unit puts out 384 HP for shields at 8.40 km for 189 cap every 4.5 seconds. Fitting needs 48CPU and 660 Powergrid and a High slot. A Basilisk/Scimitar puts out the same HP at 63 km for 47.25 cap every 4.5 seconds. Fitting needs 48CPU and 231 Powergrid and a High slot.
With the Tracking Link II it's a slightly different kettle.
A base unit gives you a 6.5km optimal range, and grants 7.5% Optimal Range bonus and 15% Tracking Speed bonus. A Scimitar/Oneiros gets a 48.75 optimal range, and grants a 15% Range bonus and 30% Tracking Speed bonus. Also uses a low slot.
To get an equivilent in a regular ship one would need to fit 2 links and one of each of the scripts that they can take.
For the drone bonus. The average drone repair rate is roughly 15HP for Tech I or 18 HP for Tech II for every 5 Bandwidth used. All Logisitics ships get double that so 30/36 HP / 5 Bandwidth. The Basilisk and Guardian have 25 Bandwidth so they get 150/180 drone rep, with thier 5 light drones. The Scimitar has 45 Bandwidth for a 270/324 drone rep, with 4 Medium and 1 light Shield Drones. The Oneiros has 50 Bandwidth for 300/360 drone rep, with 5 Medium Armor Drones.
One thing I will point out, is that if 2+ Basilisks spider thier Energy Transfer Arrays, they can produce enough Cap to fuel 5 Shield Transporters and the Energy Transfer Array, and look they get 6 high slots.
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Rexthor Hammerfists
Rage of Inferno Burning Ambition
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Posted - 2010.02.21 12:52:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Malcanis Edited by: Malcanis on 21/02/2010 09:56:44 Guardians are like voodoo for remote rep battleship fleets.
Scimis are similarly awesome for Drake and fast shield-HAC gangs
Oneiros is OK for RR BS
Basilisks are basically good for repping POS shield and not much else. I guess maybe for PvE they're good.
Note: you'll need several, well-organised Guardians and good fleet broadcast discipline for them to work well. A scimi can work OK with just one, a Guardian cant really.
NB: if you're going to fly Logistics, train the skill to 5. It really, really makes a difference.
True words, id only add that basilisks, while outperformed by scimitars, are still a viable ship if properly fitted in drake and even nanogangs when in pairs. Theyre on par with common hacs in terms of speed and agility and in a gang of 10-15 ships 2 or 3 basilisks double your gangs target variety.
Also logistics 5 is very nice but its not a requirement to fly them, any gang or fleet will kiss your feet for you flying them and the more members of your corp are able to take turns in them, which is much easier with lvl4, the stronger your gangs get. -
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.02.21 13:39:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists
Originally by: Malcanis Edited by: Malcanis on 21/02/2010 09:56:44 Guardians are like voodoo for remote rep battleship fleets.
Scimis are similarly awesome for Drake and fast shield-HAC gangs
Oneiros is OK for RR BS
Basilisks are basically good for repping POS shield and not much else. I guess maybe for PvE they're good.
Note: you'll need several, well-organised Guardians and good fleet broadcast discipline for them to work well. A scimi can work OK with just one, a Guardian cant really.
NB: if you're going to fly Logistics, train the skill to 5. It really, really makes a difference.
True words, id only add that basilisks, while outperformed by scimitars, are still a viable ship if properly fitted in drake and even nanogangs when in pairs. Theyre on par with common hacs in terms of speed and agility and in a gang of 10-15 ships 2 or 3 basilisks double your gangs target variety.
Also logistics 5 is very nice but its not a requirement to fly them, any gang or fleet will kiss your feet for you flying them and the more members of your corp are able to take turns in them, which is much easier with lvl4, the stronger your gangs get.
Basilisks are considerably slower, larger, and have much worse resists than Scimitars. Scimitars have way better survivability.
Yes, Logistics 5 isn't required to fly one, of course, but it dramatically increases the effectiveness of the ship. Compare peak and sustained rep DPS with Logi 4 vs Logi 5.
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Typhado3
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.02.21 13:55:00 -
[9]
Logistics are very valuable ships and take a bit of skill to use properly. They may not be your style but they are definetely something to give a try and your corp will love you for it.
My first piece of advice is to run very quick, very similar to flying a falcon/rook.
My second is don't try and go for cap stability, you won't be repping constantly (unless pos) so calculate for 2-3 reps going non stop. It's always good to have a rep ready inactive for when you see one of the small ships you've locked going down fast, oh and lock ships before they start dieing if possible.
Both of these change slightly if your in a gaurdian/basi where circle jirks mean cap stability/survivablity ------------------------------ God is an afk cloaker |
kingofallgimps
Minmatar 11th Gimp Inc
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Posted - 2010.02.21 15:02:00 -
[10]
I fly all races logis a fair bit and love doing it, the way i look at them is basi/guardians are for paired heavy rep in bigger gangs, if youre the only one flying logis then the oneiros n scim are superior. Oneiros is odd as you can feasibly fit a shield tank and armour RR if your skills are better like that. Guardians are, in practical situations, the "best" seeing as most fleets armour tank, and you can run 5 reps on each ship with logi 5, however guardians can only just barely be a solo repper, as ideally you should have a prop mod+cap booster+ecm at least in mids. But yeah, its great to be good at repping, be a good example and fly logis, then your mates will start to if they dont already :). |
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Tau Cabalander
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.02.21 20:11:00 -
[11]
Basilisks and Guardians are meant to be used in pairs or more, in which capacity they are both completely awesome. Neither needs to fit local rep either. I'd give the edge to Basilisks being more useful in this role, as armor repping a shield tanker is completely pointless, but shield repping an armor tanker isn't entirely. Unless you are in gang/fleet of only armor tankers.
For solo work, the Onerios and Scimitar are awesome. I'd give the edge to the Scimitar for the same reason as the Basilisk.
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Ahz
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Posted - 2010.02.21 20:56:00 -
[12]
I really enjoy flying a Scimitar. I didn't expect to. I was training logistics 5 in order to get the logistics siege module on my carrier.
That said the Scimitar is a lot of fun to fly. It can definitely change the nature of a small fleet engagement.
One thing to note: Don't be the only logistics ship in fleet if you can help it. You'll get primaried so fast it'll make your head spin.
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Falbyla
DEATHFUNK Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.02.21 21:55:00 -
[13]
Originally by: kingofallgimps à however guardians can only just barely be a solo repper, as ideally you should have a prop mod+cap booster+ecm at least in mids.
At least 3 mods à which would be a neat trick as the Guardian only has 2 midslots. MWD/AB + ECCM would be my choice. |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.02.21 23:26:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Ahz I really enjoy flying a Scimitar. I didn't expect to. I was training logistics 5 in order to get the logistics siege module on my carrier.
That said the Scimitar is a lot of fun to fly. It can definitely change the nature of a small fleet engagement.
One thing to note: Don't be the only logistics ship in fleet if you can help it. You'll get primaried so fast it'll make your head spin.
Very true. It's why the Scimitar is a good choice IMO, as it's fast and agile, so can - if well flown - handle being 'mr primary'. Well, at least, in a _relatively_ small gang.
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