| Pages: 1 [2] :: one page |
|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Reply to Topic | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Aria Jenneth
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
106
    |
Posted - 2012.06.30 19:29:00 -
[31] - Quote
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:No.
It will only be profound if men decide to stop fighting off their own free will and thought. That is a true victory. Making zombies out of them to do the same is nothing in comparison.
Ah-- thank you for the illustration, Mr. Inhonores.
Ms. Fehrnah, I'm guessing this was the kind of perspective I was coming from? |
Uraniae Fehrnah
VokoV
space weaponry and trade
123
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 22:22:00 -
[32] - Quote
Well, to be fair I don't need to presume you're somehow opposed to Kuvakei's actions, your opposition comes across clearly in the options you've laid out in a rather black and white manner. If that isn't intended, then yes I suppose I am assuming you're in opposition to Nation's actions. I however do not presume to know your reasons. I jumped into the conversation to try and present a few perspectives that your own options seemed to be lacking and to clarify a few things you've said that were less than entirely accurate.
As much as you find Kuvakei's actions to be arrogant or based on limited understanding, your own are as well, and so are mine. Yes, the universe itself has no measure for morality, it has no capacity to even have a measure of it. Yes, morality is a matter of perspective, a creation of people in a social structure. Even the truth, that your beliefs encourage you to embrace when you find it, is subjective any time it deals with the chaos of human interaction. As I said before, Kuvakei is doing the same thing other men and women have done before, and will do in the future, he's simply doing it in a different way.
If your concern is that Tiberious isn't engaging you in a conversation that is up to your measure of satisfaction, then I truly can do little about that. Though, I trust Tiberious has given reasons why he's not engaging you in a discussion that meets the criteria you want. I can certainly see some reasons that he might have, based on your responses here. While claiming to embrace truth and be open minded, you also seem to have taken your stance firmly that Kuvakei's actions are detrimental, so again the arrogance and limited understanding goes both ways.
That said, if you have information regarding Nation between The Fall and the recent uptick in action, information that isn't the scraps of information Concord allows on public nets, I'd be very interested in seeing some of it. Further, if I'm wrong in presuming your opposition or your reasoning, then by all means I'd love to speak more on that over real-time comms. |
Aria Jenneth
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
106
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 22:48:00 -
[33] - Quote
Uraniae Fehrnah wrote:Well, to be fair I don't need to presume you're somehow opposed to Kuvakei's actions, your opposition comes across clearly in the options you've laid out in a rather black and white manner. If that isn't intended, then yes I suppose I am assuming you're in opposition to Nation's actions. I however do not presume to know your reasons. I jumped into the conversation to try and present a few perspectives that your own options seemed to be lacking and to clarify a few things you've said that were less than entirely accurate.
Yes, I oppose him. "Black and white?"
Mm. Interesting. I oppose him for practical reasons-- what he wants done to all of humanity, I don't want done to me or those I care about. It's apparently possible for one to live, for now, under his rule as a citizen, rather than a slave, but at the moment that doesn't seem like the most probable outcome.
I am not rigid on this point because of a "black and white" outlook, Ms. Fehrnah. I am rigid on this point because my course is clear. We each have a part to play; I try my best to play mine well.
Quote:As much as you find Kuvakei's actions to be arrogant or based on limited understanding, your own are as well, and so are mine. Yes, the universe itself has no measure for morality, it has no capacity to even have a measure of it. Yes, morality is a matter of perspective, a creation of people in a social structure. Even the truth, that your beliefs encourage you to embrace when you find it, is subjective any time it deals with the chaos of human interaction. As I said before, Kuvakei is doing the same thing other men and women have done before, and will do in the future, he's simply doing it in a different way.
You misunderstand a little. I'm not trying out for God, and he's not trying out for king. A king doesn't have to be anywhere near perfect. A god, especially a creator, had damn well better be.
Quote: While claiming to embrace truth and be open minded, you also seem to have taken your stance firmly that Kuvakei's actions are detrimental, so again the arrogance and limited understanding goes both ways.
Arrogance, by definition, is unjustified pride. I may indeed possess such a thing, but you'll excuse me if I don't believe that opposing Sansha Kuvakei means I arrogantly dismiss what I do not understand.
And of course it goes both ways. But again, I am not trying out to be God.
Quote:That said, if you have information regarding Nation between The Fall and the recent uptick in action, information that isn't the scraps of information Concord allows on public nets, I'd be very interested in seeing some of it. Further, if I'm wrong in presuming your opposition or your reasoning, then by all means I'd love to speak more on that over real-time comms.
I do still have some. Any parts of it which are no longer publicly available may be available from SYNE; we did a lot of digging around the time of the first upliftings, and there's a series of CONCORD leaks we acquired that might not be available elsewhere anymore.
How much use other communication would be to you, I am not sure. You seem to associate a decision to take sides with a loss of clarity, but objectivity is not an attainable perspective, whether from a position of neutrality or anywhere else.
We always see the world through our own eyes.
Still, I am happy to talk. |
Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
100
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 14:47:00 -
[34] - Quote
Well, I hope both Jenneth and Thessalonia can agree that I am sort of neutral when it comes to Nation, so I hope, Mr. Thessalonia, that you'll consider my opinion in this matter:
So far, although I don't agree with all Jenneth wrote, she is the "winner" in this discussion with you, and I don't think her logic is any more flawed than before. And I must add that I am fairly dissappointed by your contributions to this discussion. I was expecting more from you.
I'm beginning to suspect you are not able to criticize Kuvakei.
Back to the topic:
Arvo Katsuya had similar theories about the Jovians being behind some of the changes in the leadership of certain factions, for instance the return of Sarum and Shakor, or the drastic change in the personality of Alexander Noir just prior to his death, to name some. I think Jenneth may remember them.
What I was curious about though, was that for some reason Katsuya did not suspect Jovian involvement in the return of Sansha Kuvakei. I sadly don't think I got the chance to ask him why.
Aria, you mentioned that Kuvakei has declared war on the capsuleers. What makes you think so?
In my opinion, it was more the capsuleers who declared war on Nation. Kuvakei, with the few words he wrote to us, seems to want us on his side, and called us his "chosen ones", perhaps even his children.
Join in game channel/mailing list: New Eden Racing
Sub-warp racing event thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=107164 |
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
Shaktipat Revelators
332
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 16:14:00 -
[35] - Quote
I don't particularly feel the need to respond to wild conspiracy theories about the leader of my faction, or any other faction. I deal in evidence. When Aria Jenneth provides some evidence as opposed to speculation, then and only then will I comment seriously further on this issue.
That is the final word on that, Che.
|
Dilaro thagriin
Cobalt Omega PMC
79
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 20:28:00 -
[36] - Quote
Che.
Apparently Capsuleers are the result of a mistake, and a disease.
Apparently nation is the remedy to both of these statements.
it's all bull of course, but there it is.
I forget which of kuvakei's (almost invariably) female mouthpieces it was that said that, probably Astur.
Y'know, i'm sure a psychoanalyst would have something to say about Kuvakei just from the fact that all of his 'ranking' subordinates, except for drake arson, appear to be female.... though that may also say something about drake... hmmmm
|
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
Shaktipat Revelators
332
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 20:30:00 -
[37] - Quote
Dilaro thagriin wrote:Che.
Apparently Capsuleers are the result of a mistake, and a disease.
Apparently nation is the remedy to both of these statements.
it's all bull of course, but there it is.
I forget which of kuvakei's (almost invariably) female mouthpieces it was that said that, probably Astur.
Y'know, i'm sure a psychoanalyst would have something to say about Kuvakei just from the fact that all of his 'ranking' subordinates, except for drake arson, appear to be female.... though that may also say something about drake... hmmmm
Really?
Edit: By that, I want you to know that I think you are a child, Dilaro. Did you really feel this was necessary? Did you think this was productive? |
Aria Jenneth
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
108
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 21:37:00 -
[38] - Quote
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:I don't particularly feel the need to respond to wild conspiracy theories about the leader of my faction, or any other faction. I deal in evidence. When Aria Jenneth provides some evidence as opposed to speculation, then and only then will I comment seriously further on this issue.
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:... I want you to know that I think you are a child, Dilaro. Did you really feel this was necessary? Did you think this was productive?
Something in common, here. Mr. Thagriin makes some odd observations; I don't know how accurate they are or what they'd mean. I'll leave that between you and him. However, I'd like to use the similarity in your responses to the both of us to point something out.
Mr. Thessalonia, you seem to suffer from a misunderstanding as to exactly what conversations here on the IGS are about. We're not here to persuade you, even if we're talking directly to you. Persuading you is probably a lost cause.
Arguments here are primarily aimed at the undecided audience.
This is the case in almost every debate that happens here. Some people, including me, use these discussions for other purposes, as well, but that doesn't make this observation any less true.
You seemingly don't want to talk about topics you have trouble taking seriously. I can relate; silly, ill-informed, or flat-out ill-intentioned remarks about the Caldari pop up here all the time. Faced with issues like that (and I'm assuming for the sake of discussion that these issues actually are without merit), you have a few options.
First, you can engage with the substance of the arguments being made. Well-handled, you can dispel a number of illusions, maybe make some strong points of your own, and easily come out with both you and your faction smelling like roses-- IF the subject matter is actually foolery. If it's not, you can end up in trouble. Everyone is either consciously or intuitively aware of this last, so if you do not engage, there will always be the suspicion that you are trying to avoid contact with an enemy you can't face.
Second, you can ignore them, and just go your way. This is the only actual way of refusing to dignify a statement with a response-- you don't respond.
Third, you can refuse to engage while attacking the authors (ad hominem) or their reasoning, without support. This is maybe useful in private conversation, in which we actually would be directing our arguments at you.
Here? Right now? We score points if you come off to an idle reader as a trapped, desperate man with no argument to make. You are helping us portray you as exactly that. You can take Che's remarks as a measure of whether we are succeeding: as a neutral, he is precisely the audience we are both trying to reach.
I prefer a good discussion to this game of reducing your credibility, which might be foolish of me. I'd be grateful if you'd stop making it so damned easy, not least because I know you're capable of better.
You can engage with me and ignore Mr. Thagriin, engage with Mr. Thagriin and ignore me, engage with both, or ignore both.
There might be other options I haven't considered, even obvious ones; I'm hungry, and not thinking quite straight.
Whichever course you pick, however, it's probably not a good idea to look like you want us to stop talking about these matters because you can't defend yourself, or your Master. |
Dilaro thagriin
Cobalt Omega PMC
79
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 00:30:00 -
[39] - Quote
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Really?
Edit: By that, I want you to know that I think you are a child, Dilaro. Did you really feel this was necessary? Did you think this was productive?
Che asked a question, and while i could not be bothered to trawl through months of forum activity to find the specific posts in question Tiberious, I did, in a simple and direct manner, distill the essence of the communications regarding Capsuleers into two lines.
Was it too direct for your 'oh so high and mighty' augmented and networked brain to handle there Tib?
Is your time in Nation really turning you into such a weak being that you can only respond to observations regarding your vaunted master and his lackeys with childish remarks such as this?
Guess so.
so... TL;DR
Yes, it was necessary to answer the question.
Yes, as it was a response based on my recollection of one of those Slave or Citizen's words, it was productive.
how about your response? not productive OR necessary really, was it? |
Ruby Amatucci
Tomorrowland Orphanage
Shaktipat Revelators
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 04:13:00 -
[40] - Quote
Master Kuvakei is better than the Amarrian God. If you are evil in Nation, you get repaired. |
|
Aria Jenneth
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
108
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 05:01:00 -
[41] - Quote
Dilaro thagriin wrote:Seems to me that I hit the nail on the head with my original post there tibby....
I concur.
(Though I'm reserving judgment on Kuvakei's taste in lieutenants.)
(... trying to, anyway.) |
Vikarion
Blackened Steel
35
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 07:21:00 -
[42] - Quote
Ruby Amatucci wrote:Master Kuvakei is better than the Amarrian God. If you are evil in Nation, you get repaired.
Good to see you, Ruby. |
Ruby Amatucci
Tomorrowland Orphanage
Shaktipat Revelators
1
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 12:07:00 -
[43] - Quote
Vikarion wrote:Good to see you, Ruby.
Vik! Oh, it's good to see you, too!
How have you been? And are you okay? Are you sleeping well? Eating enough? |
Dilaro thagriin
Cobalt Omega PMC
80
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 21:12:00 -
[44] - Quote
I suppose that this next part is not entirely necessary... however, it seems pertinent..
It is also something many, Tiberious included, appear to have missed, forgotten or purposefully overlooked.
it comes from the same thread i posted a galnet link to earlier.
Posted by : Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
The mistake referred to is Capsule technology. Our power, in Nation's eyes, is wasted on us. It is wasted because we are flawed. Free will is the flaw that keeps us from being "perfect". We use the power that we have for our own purposes, and not for the greater whole.
That is the lesson of Tama.
Posted in response to the above by Slave Tama01
Nikiruu understands the lesson of Tama. There are many lessons yet to be taught.
For Nation.
Now... Since Slave Tama01 actually IS networked to Kuvakei's little network, her words hold a lot more weight than those of any member of SHARE, so the next time one of them tells you that free will is not something that Kuvie and his happy little sychophants want removed, personally, I would suggest taking their words with an obelisk full of salt. |
Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
100
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 22:12:00 -
[45] - Quote
Dilaro,
I think I was aware of most, if not all, of these quotes. I don't really think that 'chosen ones', 'result of mistake' and 'disease' cancel eachother out. I can certainly agree with the disease part in a way.
As for free will, well, I don't think anyone is denying that Nation wants to remove it at least partially from at least a portion of humanity. Wether free will even exists at all, that's a discussion in and of itself.
Join in game channel/mailing list: New Eden Racing
Sub-warp racing event thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=107164 |
|
|
| |
Reply to Topic |
| Pages: 1 [2] :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |