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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 36 post(s) |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1933
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Posted - 2012.06.28 23:44:00 -
[241] - Quote
Rhys Thoth wrote:This resolution seems pretty fair, though as a trader I am somewhat concerned about the vagueness surrounding the market manipulation. As best as I can tell there were three issues:
1) FW LP gains for kills 2) Market price manipulation 3) Using an 'x day' rolling average to calculate item value
1 needs some tweaking. 2 has been legit gameplay since I first logged in.
3 is where it goes full ******. The algorithm for determining average price needs to be resistant to this type of tampering.
The tampering only compounded the issue and is not the issue in and of itself. The tampering itself when coupled with the ability to kill and alt over and over again to farm LP is the issue. Without the tampering the farming is significantly less problematic but it's only a part of the puzzle. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1934
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Posted - 2012.06.28 23:46:00 -
[242] - Quote
Munch Munch wrote:So, to sum up the facts again quick: - They deliberately broke the rules by looking for holes in the mechanics and exploiting whatever they find (they admitted it) - Their exploits had huge impacts on the market and FW, which caused damage to thousands of other players - They did not go public with it because of good will, but only to protect themselves, brag about how "awesome" they are, and to make CCP look like fools
And what does CCP do? Instead of punishing them, YOU ARE DUMB ENOUGH TO REWARD THEM WITH IMMUNITY AND A FREE PLEX???
As if they cared about the rollback of the goods they made with those exploits. They had the time of their life, and you probably won't be able to delete all their gains anyway because they are spread all over the universe and to differents accounts and alts by now. If you permabanned them... perhaps this would have set a sign and they or others would not be trying to exploit in the future anymore. But by REWARDING them for such impudence, you will not prevent anyone from attempting to exploit... In fact all CCP did (or failed to do) in this case only encourages other players to exploit, and the persons that did it in this case will probably do it again themselves, but the next time they will not go public with it. And you probably will not notice it anyway, seeing how you failed to notice the extreme impacts on the market and FW, despite the fact that you should have been monitoring those things closely after implementing such extreme changes (yay for FW store prices varying between 25% and 400%).
Good to know that "the exploiter" seems to be a new EVE profession that is officially supported now. If CCP is this dumb, I will make sure to be looking for exploits too from now on.
If we weren't able to fix the problem we wouldn't have said we could. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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Rhys Thoth
Endland
1
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Posted - 2012.06.28 23:48:00 -
[243] - Quote
Munch Munch wrote:And what does CCP do? Instead of punishing them, YOU ARE DUMB ENOUGH TO REWARD THEM WITH IMMUNITY AND A FREE PLEX???
Yeah... It's not like having your assets frozen and several trillion isk in stuff vaporized is any kind of punishment.
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Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
58
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Posted - 2012.06.28 23:48:00 -
[244] - Quote
Spaja Saist wrote:Querns wrote:Spaja Saist wrote: This just doesn't make any sense to me. A group of people exploited a game mechanic to make ungodly amounts of LP and ISK and you are rewarding them for it? I guarantee if this was anyone else but Goons they would have been banned.
CCP your favoritism is showing and not in a good way.
did you miss the part where we had our LP and assets (including a goodly portion of non-involved assets) seized pending investigation because that was a thing that did and is still happening And you will get everything back that was not generated using an exploit as Sreegs said. It doesn't change the fact that they are ignoring their own TOS to not ban you. Exploiting a game mechanic is a bannable offense. Then add the fact that Goons gloated about it and gave CCP a black eye. I personally could give two ***** about Goons. Hell I used to root for you when you were taking down BOB. But lately it seems all you guys care about is doing as much financial damage to CCP and their game as possible.
EULA wrote:CCP may establish Rules of Conduct (discussed below) for players accessing the System and may, but is not obligated to, monitor and take action regarding inappropriate conduct
The EULA/TOS are written (as most are) specifically to allow CCP unfettered choice in their responses to anything. Thus, they are not ignoring any part of their EULA/TOS regardless of how you may feel about the classification of this event. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Spaja Saist
The Scope Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2012.06.28 23:49:00 -
[245] - Quote
Munch Munch wrote:So, to sum up the facts again quick: - They deliberately broke the rules by looking for holes in the mechanics and exploiting whatever they find (they admitted it) - Their exploits had huge impacts on the market and FW, which caused damage to thousands of other players - They did not go public with it because of good will, but only to protect themselves, brag about how "awesome" they are, and to make CCP look like fools
And what does CCP do? Instead of punishing them, YOU ARE DUMB ENOUGH TO REWARD THEM WITH IMMUNITY AND A FREE PLEX???
As if they cared about the rollback of the goods they made with those exploits. They had the time of their life, and you probably won't be able to delete all their gains anyway because they are spread all over the universe and to differents accounts and alts by now. If you permabanned them... perhaps this would have set a sign and they or others would not be trying to exploit in the future anymore. But by REWARDING them for such impudence, you will not prevent anyone from attempting to exploit... In fact all CCP did (or failed to do) in this case only encourages other players to exploit, and the persons that did it in this case will probably do it again themselves, but the next time they will not go public with it. And you probably will not notice it anyway, seeing how you failed to notice the extreme impacts on the market and FW, despite the fact that you should have been monitoring those things closely after implementing such extreme changes (yay for FW store prices varying between 25% and 400%).
Good to know that "the exploiter" seems to be a new EVE profession that is officially supported now. If CCP is this dumb, I will make sure to be looking for exploits too from now on.
^What she said. CCP has set a bad precedent with this decision.
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Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
168
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Posted - 2012.06.28 23:51:00 -
[246] - Quote
ROFLMAO
I have always said that people who find exploits like this are: a) brilliant b) spend too much time in-game
I think CCP should hire those five guys to do testing. I'll bet they'll find all kinds of stuff while simultaneously being more effective than the current testers. |
Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
57
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Posted - 2012.06.29 00:04:00 -
[247] - Quote
Urgg Boolean wrote:ROFLMAO
I have always said that people who find exploits like this are: a) brilliant b) spend too much time in-game
I think CCP should hire those five guys to do testing. I'll bet they'll find all kinds of stuff while simultaneously being more effective than the current testers. ccp can't afford me, also I've worked in the video games industry so the novelty is lost on me |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
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Posted - 2012.06.29 00:16:00 -
[248] - Quote
Urgg Boolean wrote:ROFLMAO
I have always said that people who find exploits like this are: a) brilliant b) spend too much time in-game
I think CCP should hire those five guys to do testing. I'll bet they'll find all kinds of stuff while simultaneously being more effective than the current testers. I'm currently unemployed & looking for work (which is what definitely makes part B true), but even then I'm with querns - CCP can't afford me, not when I'd have to move to iceland. I'm a mechanical engineer anyway, I don't know the first thing about programming...
Besides, being unable to muck around in the markets would be no fun. Same reason I'd never run for CSM...they kinda frown on insider trading by CSM members I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
Dealth Striker
Striker Ltd
9
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Posted - 2012.06.29 00:25:00 -
[249] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Spaja Saist wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Atomic Option wrote:I'm not sure I agree with rolling back their gains--although I'd definitely zero out their LP--but I'm not bent out of shape over it. At least the one guy got a free plex. That's pretty cool. PLEX reward scales with the severity of the exploitable condition so it'll be more than one. This just doesn't make any sense to me. A group of people exploited a game mechanic to make ungodly amounts of LP and ISK and you are rewarding them for it? I guarantee if this was anyone else but Goons they would have been banned. CCP your favoritism is showing and not in a good way. We're rewarding the person who brought us the problem. Just like any other time someone brings us problems of this nature as per the program linked in the dev blog.
There you go - CCP can release a summer event entitled - "Exploit for PLEX" |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3774
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Posted - 2012.06.29 00:38:00 -
[250] - Quote
Urgg Boolean wrote:ROFLMAO
I have always said that people who find exploits like this are: a) brilliant b) spend too much time in-game
I think CCP should hire those five guys to do testing. I'll bet they'll find all kinds of stuff while simultaneously being more effective than the current testers. most of the theoretical work for this comes from shooting the **** on jabber, not actually being in-game
eaugh, being in-game |
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3774
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Posted - 2012.06.29 00:38:00 -
[251] - Quote
thats like what ratters and miners and other peasants do |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3774
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Posted - 2012.06.29 00:40:00 -
[252] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: I'm pretty sure that's not how this works and is specifically spoken against in the blog. While a great deal of LP was generated here the vast majority wasn't cashed out making it just a number in people's wallets. The proceeds were seized. No advantage is had. The market could have been crashed but the issue was reported instead. I know that will never be enough for some and that we're not going to please everyone but at the very least if you're going to post in this thread please at least make a modicum of effort to read the blog in question.
sreegs it's 12:40 am over there go to sleep |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1935
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Posted - 2012.06.29 00:43:00 -
[253] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: I'm pretty sure that's not how this works and is specifically spoken against in the blog. While a great deal of LP was generated here the vast majority wasn't cashed out making it just a number in people's wallets. The proceeds were seized. No advantage is had. The market could have been crashed but the issue was reported instead. I know that will never be enough for some and that we're not going to please everyone but at the very least if you're going to post in this thread please at least make a modicum of effort to read the blog in question.
sreegs it's 12:40 am over there go to sleep
going now :( "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
59
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Posted - 2012.06.29 00:49:00 -
[254] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Weaselior wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: I'm pretty sure that's not how this works and is specifically spoken against in the blog. While a great deal of LP was generated here the vast majority wasn't cashed out making it just a number in people's wallets. The proceeds were seized. No advantage is had. The market could have been crashed but the issue was reported instead. I know that will never be enough for some and that we're not going to please everyone but at the very least if you're going to post in this thread please at least make a modicum of effort to read the blog in question.
sreegs it's 12:40 am over there go to sleep going now :(
INB4 Tinfoil Pillows. Night night, Sreegs. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Dealth Striker
Striker Ltd
9
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Posted - 2012.06.29 00:55:00 -
[255] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:
I'm pretty sure that's not how this works and is specifically spoken against in the blog. While a great deal of LP was generated here the vast majority wasn't cashed out making it just a number in people's wallets. The proceeds were seized. No advantage is had. The market could have been crashed but the issue was reported instead. I know that will never be enough for some and that we're not going to please everyone but at the very least if you're going to post in this thread please at least make a modicum of effort to read the blog in question.
I read the blog - and have posted that my only concern is the way CCP is handling the exploiters. I have no ill-feelings to the exploiters - having worked for a major gaming comany in QA, I have always been thrilled to see how people can figure ways around normal game play, break things, etc. The fact they can manipulate CCP is enlightening. My beef is with CCP's handling of the exploiters. To say on the one hand we are following this to the letter (as an excuse) and then saying on the other hand we discussed this, and this is how we are handling it, is pretty funny. So if you look at it, there will always be an excuse given - so just man up and say the old saying "Our game, our rules, so either put up with it or there is the door". Do not insult peoples' intelligence with trying to come up with a believable excuse for justifying your actions.
Also, maybe should have kept the handling of the exploiters to in-house - you got to know it looks like favoritism. I would love to know the reasoning behind releasing the punishment to the forums. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
521
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Posted - 2012.06.29 01:01:00 -
[256] - Quote
Dealth Striker wrote:My beef is with CCP's handling of the exploiters. To say on the one hand we are following this to the letter (as an excuse) and then saying on the other hand we discussed this, and this is how we are handling it, is pretty funny.
EULA wrote:CCP may establish Rules of Conduct (discussed below) for players accessing the System and may, but is not obligated to, monitor and take action regarding inappropriate conduct Sounds like they followed this to the letter to me.
Dealth Striker wrote:So if you look at it, there will always be an excuse given - so just man up and say the old saying "Our game, our rules, so either put up with it or there is the door". Do not insult peoples' intelligence with trying to come up with a believable excuse for justifying your actions.
Also, maybe should have kept the handling of the exploiters to in-house - you got to know it looks like favoritism. I would love to know the reasoning behind releasing the punishment to the forums. Sreegs' job is dealing with this sort of thing. Granted that normally entails botters and RMTers, but hey.
As to releasing it to the forums - this is really no different than when he went all viking raider on RMT rings. Only difference is that we posted about it first, so you know our names. Had we not posted, you probably wouldn't be complaining. I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
Linda Shadowborn
Dark Steel Industries
147
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Posted - 2012.06.29 01:21:00 -
[257] - Quote
Liam Mirren wrote:Goon tears best tears.
what tears? i dont see any goon tears at all |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
523
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Posted - 2012.06.29 01:25:00 -
[258] - Quote
Linda Shadowborn wrote:Liam Mirren wrote:Goon tears best tears. what tears? i dont see any goon tears at all
Dealth Striker, Cipher Jones (who hasn't turned up in this thread, actually) and Pr1ncess Aria or whatever his/her name was are clearly goon alts. I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
Spurty
D00M. Northern Coalition.
287
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Posted - 2012.06.29 01:27:00 -
[259] - Quote
Good work!
Loading ships up with uncommon items and blowing them up, then looking for anomalies is not where any sane qa manager should be spending their time. You need to recruit more insane workers ---- CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1389
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 01:27:00 -
[260] - Quote
Mighty nice of CCP to go to the trouble of sifting through all the transactions made and carefully reversing them instead of just confiscating all the ill-gotten LP or banning them. Good job though. |
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corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
523
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Posted - 2012.06.29 01:34:00 -
[261] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Mighty nice of CCP to go to the trouble of sifting through all the transactions made and carefully reversing them instead of just confiscating all the ill-gotten LP or banning them. Good job though.
They did this, you know. Almost right off the bat, in fact. I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
Damion Rayne
Lorentz Technology Group
105
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Posted - 2012.06.29 01:39:00 -
[262] - Quote
So, CCP Sreegs, if I exploit...and tell you about it, I'll get banned right? It's just because it was Goons that they get off with pretty much nothing? Teamwork.. Maturity.. Tactics.. www.tacticalgamer.com |
Mara Tessidar
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
596
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Posted - 2012.06.29 01:50:00 -
[263] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Mighty nice of CCP to go to the trouble of sifting through all the transactions made and carefully reversing them instead of just confiscating all the ill-gotten LP or banning them. Good job though. They did this, you know. Almost right off the bat, in fact.
He doesn't know. That is why he posted something dumb. Eve Online: A Bad Game. |
Mara Tessidar
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
596
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Posted - 2012.06.29 01:51:00 -
[264] - Quote
Damion Rayne wrote:So, CCP Sreegs, if I exploit...and tell you about it, I'll get banned right? It's just because it was Goons that they get off with pretty much nothing?
we're only out 5 trillion ISK, nbd Eve Online: A Bad Game. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
524
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Posted - 2012.06.29 01:51:00 -
[265] - Quote
Damion Rayne wrote:So, CCP Sreegs, if I exploit...and tell you about it, I'll get banned right? It's just because it was Goons that they get off with pretty much nothing? This person. He's also a goon alt, and is another reason why it's possible for there to be goon tears in this thread. I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
Munch Munch
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2012.06.29 02:02:00 -
[266] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Dealth Striker wrote:There you go - CCP can release a summer event entitled - "Exploit for PLEX"
find an exploit, use it to your advantage for awhile, and then turn yourself in -- woola - plex abound. I'm pretty sure that's not how this works and is specifically spoken against in the blog.
Yet the lack of punishment, combined with your inability to notice exploiting, does nothing but encourage exploiting.
CCP Sreegs wrote:While a great deal of LP was generated here the vast majority wasn't cashed out making it just a number in people's wallets.
Seriously, are you kidding, or are you really so biased that you are unwilling to see or to admit how far this whole thing went?
Maybe the vast majority of LP wasn't cashed out, but still way more items were created through the LP store than any mission runner would ever be able to generate in his entire life. Just look at the numbers of the screens that they provide themselves http://imgur.com/1fSsT http://i.imgur.com/dtMk4.png I don't know if you know, but one implant needs one click in the LP store for example... If not all was cashed out, it only means that their macros/bots were not able to cash out more than that despite literally running 24/7. Using third party tools is another point you SHOULD punish them for. But wait, CCP Sreegs is so biased... He probably thinks goons really spent dozens of hours just clicking buttons in the LP store to generate those amounts of items themselves.
CCP Sreegs wrote:The market could have been crashed but the issue was reported instead.
They stated themselves that they had to sell some of the generated goods several times during the two weeks while the exploiting was still in progress, so they could cover the ISK part of the LP store prices, just to generate even more items. You say no markets were crashed? If you bothered to check actually, you would see that the prices of many items went down considerably because of that. They obviously filled out all buy orders for some items and probably put up many sell orders with dumping prices too. The impacts are still visible even today since it takes time for the markets to recover. Because of this, much damage was caused to all traders and people that use LP stores in legal ways to profit from the affected items.
CCP Sreegs wrote:The proceeds were seized. No advantage is had. On their main accounts maybe. But you can't possibly delete all items that already got onto the market because of this. If the goons weren't stupid (they already proved they aren't), they "washed" huge amounts of items by indirectly trading them to each others alt accounts through hugely underpriced buy orders. Even if you tried to trace this, you most likely wouldn't be able to if they used proxies and did this in between their usual cash-ins on the public market. Seeing how incompetent you acted in this case, I really doubt you got all their goods, so now they will be able to resell the washed items and go out of this not only unpunished, but also with more ISK than they had before (also because of the free PLEXes you give them as a reward for "reporting the issue", while their thread was actually more like a "public mocking of CCP", LOL).
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Zalifer Esepula
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
18
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Posted - 2012.06.29 02:11:00 -
[267] - Quote
Posting my displeasure that this was deemed an exploit. The correct soloution was to call it a problem, and fix it. If you have to decide afterwards if it's an exploit, it wasn't. They only used game mechanics to do what game mechanics allowed.
Quote:
1. EXPLOITS
An immediate permanent ban of an account may result if:
a. Investigation shows that a player has employed the use of an exploit tactic despite a public announcement being made to alert players they will be banned for using it. b. A player who has been previously warned for exploiting and continues to exploit, whether using the same exploit or another. c. An account holder guilty of employing GÇ£dupingGÇ¥ exploits. Players found to have received the benefits of this exploit may also face reprimand, from removal of the items in question up to, and including, banning of their accounts. d. A player has engaged in activity that intentionally causes others to lose connection, suffer latency issues (lag) or to crash to desktop (CTD). e. A player renders himself invulnerable through the use of a bug. f. A player has created, distributed or advertised an illegal 3rd party program (i.e. macro or cheat program) that disrupts game mechanics, is considered unfriendly or gives an unfair advantage by misusing game features in a way for which they were not intended.
Severe offences may result in an immediate ban without warning; however, warnings may be given for first time offenses, followed by account suspensions of varying degree and ultimately a permanent ban if a player:
a. Creates a character using a name that is misleading and causes others to believe he is a fair target, such as a non-player pirate or other NPC entity. b. Is discovered to be employing the use of a third party program to macro illegally. Funds or goods received from the benefits of macroing are subject to removal from the playerGÇÖs inventory. c. Is aware of an exploitable bug and fails to report it to Game Masters and/or distributes the information to other players.
Which one of these categorizes their actions as an exploit. This is clearly not a bug. All systems functioned as intended. They manipulated the moving average. They blew up ships. They collected LP rewards. They cashed in LP for LP rewards.
Which of those is broken? Which part of that is a bug?
None. They exploited nothing other than the system given to them, the same as 0.01ISK traders, and people who manipulate the market for other reasons. They meta gamed like hell, and that was all they did.
I won't pretend im going to leave or unsubscribe, but this a worrying step for CCP, far worse than some In station Avatar, or expensive monocle.
The only thing i hope is that this is 100% damage control because of the way the 5 involved managed to get so much of a stir from the EVE-GD visitors. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1389
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 02:20:00 -
[268] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Mighty nice of CCP to go to the trouble of sifting through all the transactions made and carefully reversing them instead of just confiscating all the ill-gotten LP or banning them. Good job though. They did this, you know. Almost right off the bat, in fact. Yeah, and they could have left it at that if they chose - but didn't. That's why I preceded it with the word 'just'. |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
256
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Posted - 2012.06.29 03:02:00 -
[269] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Kern Hotha wrote:Ex-Goon working in the security department at CCP gets assigned the task of adjudicating Goon exploiters.
Ex-Goon deems that no punishment is necessary. Light slap on the wrist given to exploiters. Chief exploiter rewarded with gift card.
"Comedy is allied to justice." - Aristophanes Hi Capsuleer Kern Hotha, you may have missed the bit where we pointed out that these are group decisions. I'm pleased you feel it necessary to question my integrity but unfortunately for you in this case your conspiratorial scenario has no grounding in reality. Says the guy whose integrity is in question. No conflict of interest there whatsoever.
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Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
71
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Posted - 2012.06.29 03:05:00 -
[270] - Quote
Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:Says the guy whose integrity is in question. No conflict of interest there whatsoever.
All the proof of the Moon landing came from NASA, the government agency whose accomplishments are in question.
Conspiracy Theories are fun like that. -RubyPorto
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