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c0olGuY77
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Posted - 2010.02.10 16:20:00 -
[1]
Hello all, i am a player who (hopefully) will be moving into 0.0 soon. I just finished caldari cruiser 5, and i plan to get into a cerb, rook,falcon, eagle etc.. Primarily the missle boats. While browsing some 0.0 alliance killboards, i seem to notice that almost none of the cerbs or rooks are fitted with HAMS? according to eft and my personal experience, HAMs are almost always superior to heavies as they deal out almost double as much dps as the heavies, and with the bonus's of the t2 ships, allow you to fight in the 20-30km range. The only reason why people would want to fit heavies is for the range (60-100) but from what i know, by the time the missiles reach the target at 100km, all of your friends in ships that use turrets would have probably popped him or at least damaged him enough so that your dps would negligible (although after the first volley it becomes normal as there are missles on the way). I personally like using HAMS more as i like the dps but it seems as if heavies are the new thing down in 0.0. Can someone explain what is the reason for using HAMs over Heavies? are battles always fought at that range? ------ sorry for the wall of text, here is a summary why do people use HAMS over Heavies in 0.0?
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lollerwaffle
Sileo In Pacis THE SPACE P0LICE
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Posted - 2010.02.10 16:37:00 -
[2]
Edited by: lollerwaffle on 10/02/2010 16:39:18 Edited by: lollerwaffle on 10/02/2010 16:37:40 HAMs use up a lot of grid. For the range you'll be using them at, you don't have much grid leftover for MWD + bit of tank. It's not fun warping out just because someone sent some drones over to you.
HM hits smaller or faster targets better. Also, more range. Also, F.O.F.s
A degree of intelligence is required in flying long range missileboats in fleet/small gang warfare, it's not just listen to FC, lock primary f1, f2, f3... Lock secondary, rinse and repeat.
As to flight time, it depends on the target. Shooting BS in a sniper HAC gang? 100km missiles are fine, you'll get top damage on most if not all the killmails. Shooting faster/smaller stuff? Not so good if target pretty much dies in 1-2 volleys, but mitigated by above point (degree of intelligence).
ps. I'm sure you got your last question and last couple of lines in wall o'text the other way around
e: spellin and the ps
Originally by: salva dore Cloak should not be AFK solution. What do you think?
Originally by: AFK Cloaker
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Kijo Rikki
Caldari Swarm of Angry Bees
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Posted - 2010.02.10 16:38:00 -
[3]
EWAR ships typically operate under the premise of keep at range, keep em jammed. With that in mind HAMS on such a ship are worthless as they cant hit out to your effective jam range.
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Bl4ckMech
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Posted - 2010.02.10 16:46:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Bl4ckMech on 10/02/2010 16:47:37 Also you are right that missiles out at 100km are not so good when you have gun boats but from 40-60km and if your in a missile gang, they are actually pretty ok( especially with ships such as the cerb which have missile velocity bonuses). Also some people prefer hmls to hams, just a matter of opinion what you use most cases.
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Leviathan Tank
Lost Innocence
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Posted - 2010.02.10 16:58:00 -
[5]
aah, hams own on drakes but a ham cerb is an expensive fat bugger. i fly a ham tengu which owns for pvp n pve. however in an organised gang the range of heavies offers great flexibility for dictating range/kiting. ham drake web scpam mwd - done, good luck!
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c0olGuY77
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Posted - 2010.02.10 17:15:00 -
[6]
so if i am understanding this right, people fit heavies for flexibility, and fitting issues, as most of the gangs in 0.0 will fight in range that is suitable for HAMs, at least in small fleets. Im i correct in stating this?
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Kijo Rikki
Caldari Swarm of Angry Bees
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Posted - 2010.02.10 17:20:00 -
[7]
I dunno, I'm not out there. I'm just thinking in my head, a rook in HAM range against an enemy fleet numbering more than the number of jammers on board = dead rook IMO.
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Sir Fourhead
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2010.02.10 17:29:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Kijo Rikki I dunno, I'm not out there. I'm just thinking in my head, a rook in HAM range against an enemy fleet numbering more than the number of jammers on board = dead rook IMO.
not if you have remote shield lovin' Please pardon the prissy overtones that will be found throughout this letter, but the reservoir from which CCP draws its lickspittles is primarily the masses of revolting enemies of the people. |
Grut
The Protei
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Posted - 2010.02.10 17:32:00 -
[9]
Originally by: c0olGuY77 so if i am understanding this right, people fit heavies for flexibility, and fitting issues, as most of the gangs in 0.0 will fight in range that is suitable for HAMs, at least in small fleets. Im i correct in stating this?
Pretty much, though heavies keep advantage is range.
Aside from the sac which only gets bonus's to hams the drakes the only real other ship where you get a choice between HMLs and HAM's.
As to which ones more useful it depends on gang size, tactics and how you like to play.
In a really small gang hams are attractive - you'll want to put a point on target & the extra dps will really help your gang out.
Bigger gangs will have specialised tackle so getting into point / scram range isn't as important. Your targets will be more spreadout and there will be lots of tempting things to shoot at range such as logis and ew.
Its upto you to make the call as to whats more usefull. Kinsy > deadman you there? Kinsy > are either of us in pods, becase we dont know...
Mostly harmless [ 2005.12.09 19:22:50 ] (notify) You have started trying to warp scramble the Dreadnought |
xChevalierx
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Posted - 2010.02.10 17:37:00 -
[10]
Originally by: lollerwaffle
stuff... f1, f2, f3... Lock secondary, rinse and repeat. more stuff..
use grouping noob... that is all.
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lollerwaffle
Sileo In Pacis THE SPACE P0LICE
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Posted - 2010.02.10 17:47:00 -
[11]
Originally by: xChevalierx
Originally by: lollerwaffle
stuff... f1, f2, f3... Lock secondary, rinse and repeat. more stuff..
use grouping noob... that is all.
f1 = guns/missiles f2 = target painters f3 = Sensor damps
HAH!
Originally by: salva dore Cloak should not be AFK solution. What do you think?
Originally by: AFK Cloaker
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c0olGuY77
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Posted - 2010.02.10 18:16:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Grut
Aside from the sac which only gets bonus's to hams the drakes the only real other ship where you get a choice between HMLs and HAM's.
I seem to disagree with your opinion. Hams on a cerb can do a lot of dps, while still being mobile like a drake. It can also reach 56 km with Jav's which i would think is far enough for fighting, and if its not far enough, the MWD would take care of that. heavies will do that dps, but farther 130km ish, but when we reach the 0-40 range, HAMs, will always surpass heavies in dps. I understand in the case of a rook that HAMS ******ed, as the lack of tank will get you insta popped in fights with more than like, 6 ppl, but in that case, i would be in a falcon sitting cloaked till its time to uncloak and lay down some super jammage.
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lollerwaffle
Sileo In Pacis THE SPACE P0LICE
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Posted - 2010.02.10 18:26:00 -
[13]
Originally by: c0olGuY77 Hams on a cerb can do a lot of dps, while still being mobile like a drake.
It's more mobile than a drake, but has a lot less buffer than a drake does. Keep that in mind.
Originally by: c0olGuY77 It can also reach 56 km with Jav's which i would think is far enough for fighting, and if its not far enough, the MWD would take care of that.
How fast do you think cerbs go? Not saying they're slow but there's a lot of careful piloting involved. If you're new, you might not be very good at this just yet and a cerb loss is pretty pricey :)
Originally by: c0olGuY77 heavies will do that dps, but farther 130km ish, but when we reach the 0-40 range, HAMs, will always surpass heavies in dps.
Agree. Still heavies do have their advantages even at close range. Think counter ewar
Originally by: c0olGuY77 I understand in the case of a rook that HAMS ******ed, as the lack of tank will get you insta popped in fights with more than like, 6 ppl, but in that case, i would be in a falcon sitting cloaked till its time to uncloak and lay down some super jammage.
Depends on the rest of your fit. I've rolled with a HAM rook before Also, iirc rooks have way longer optimal range on ecm than falcons, I think.
Originally by: salva dore Cloak should not be AFK solution. What do you think?
Originally by: AFK Cloaker
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Kijo Rikki
Caldari Swarm of Angry Bees
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Posted - 2010.02.10 18:27:00 -
[14]
Yeah.
Also, I'm still flying griffins and blackbirds and i typically favor E-spueriority rigs which sap shields, but so far my velocity and distance from target has usually provided ample protection, or at least the time to escape if I realize they really, really don't like me and have the capability to reach out and touch me more than gently.
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0oO0oOoOo0o
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Posted - 2010.02.10 19:49:00 -
[15]
Originally by: c0olGuY77
Originally by: Grut
Aside from the sac which only gets bonus's to hams the drakes the only real other ship where you get a choice between HMLs and HAM's.
I seem to disagree with your opinion. Hams on a cerb can do a lot of dps, while still being mobile like a drake. It can also reach 56 km with Jav's which i would think is far enough for fighting, and if its not far enough, the MWD would take care of that. heavies will do that dps, but farther 130km ish, but when we reach the 0-40 range, HAMs, will always surpass heavies in dps. I understand in the case of a rook that HAMS ******ed, as the lack of tank will get you insta popped in fights with more than like, 6 ppl, but in that case, i would be in a falcon sitting cloaked till its time to uncloak and lay down some super jammage.
The diffrence in dps isn't that big. People compare it to the diffrence of cruisemissiles-vs-torps or railguns-vs-blasters, but that's wrong, it's not the same diffrence. Also you can carry some scourge heavy missiles with you, if you meet something big and slow, they still have an excellent range and do nice damage, have a good overall performance. Precision medium missiles are a huge waste, never use them. Heavy missiles are better in almost all situations except in a 1v1 maybe.
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Flitterby
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Posted - 2010.02.10 22:37:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Flitterby on 10/02/2010 22:37:23
Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o Precision medium missiles are a huge waste, never use them. Heavy missiles are better in almost all situations except in a 1v1 maybe.
Precisions are a very fun surprise for inties/vaginabonds/nanocrap who think they can harass your gang from a distance and pick off your tacklers, etc. I always carry them.
edit: Not that I get lots of kills with them, but they sure scare people away.
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bluenzo
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Posted - 2010.02.11 05:50:00 -
[17]
A ham cerb does equal dps as a heavy drake. Drake also has far superior range. Why would u want a ham cerb?
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.02.11 09:07:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Flitterby Edited by: Flitterby on 10/02/2010 22:37:23
Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o Precision medium missiles are a huge waste, never use them. Heavy missiles are better in almost all situations except in a 1v1 maybe.
Precisions are a very fun surprise for inties/vaginabonds/nanocrap who think they can harass your gang from a distance and pick off your tacklers, etc. I always carry them.
edit: Not that I get lots of kills with them, but they sure scare people away.
No, they're hopeless. They do a tiny bit more damage to small fast stuff than CN, but have half the range. This makes them awful at their intended role of hitting small fast stuff capable of staying at range. Don't bother to reload, in fact don't bother carrying them.
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Shade Millith
International House of PWNCakes Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2010.02.11 10:42:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Shade Millith on 11/02/2010 10:42:56
Originally by: Flitterby Edited by: Flitterby on 10/02/2010 22:37:23
Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o Precision medium missiles are a huge waste, never use them. Heavy missiles are better in almost all situations except in a 1v1 maybe.
Precisions are a very fun surprise for inties/vaginabonds/nanocrap who think they can harass your gang from a distance and pick off your tacklers, etc. I always carry them.
edit: Not that I get lots of kills with them, but they sure scare people away.
They really don't help. For comparisen, a Drake, LVL5 skills, with CN scourge missiles only, does 28 DPS to a LVL 5 crow, unwebbed/unscrammed, at full speed. Presision Heavies get 35 under the same situation.
While that is a 25% increase, a 25% increase of a low number, is still a low number (an increase of 7 DPS). So for a 25% (7DPS) increase of a already low number, you give up about 30% of your speed and half of your range.
On a 2 * nanofibre Vagabond, with the standard 2 * LSE II's, going at full speed unwebbed/unscrammed you'll do ~241 DPS with the CN heavies, over the ~218 of the Presisions. So using precision on an untackled vaga it's 9.5% less damage, 30% less speed, and 50% less range.
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Joe Stalin
Unknown-Entity Black Star Alliance
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Posted - 2010.02.12 23:13:00 -
[20]
1) Power Grid - Caldari ships seem to always be short on power grid 2) Range - you don't always want your Caldari ship in enemy point/neut/scram/web range, being able to burn away while maintaining fire on enemy targets can be a significant advantage 3) Hitting small stuff - Don't even try to hit a small fast moving ship with heavy assault launchers in most cases
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Joe Censored
Unknown-Entity Black Star Alliance
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Posted - 2010.02.12 23:13:00 -
[21]
1) Power Grid - Caldari ships seem to always be short on power grid 2) Range - you don't always want your Caldari ship in enemy point/neut/scram/web range, being able to burn away while maintaining fire on enemy targets can be a significant advantage 3) Hitting small stuff - Don't even try to hit a small fast moving ship with heavy assault launchers in most cases
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super hornet
Caldari Boob Heads Vivisection.
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Posted - 2010.02.13 18:48:00 -
[22]
i actually tried the Ham Drake didnt like it much, i much prefered the switching of Precsion missle to faction missles in the heavys. sorry that was a warning shot didnt mean to pop you |
Don Pellegrino
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2010.02.15 17:59:00 -
[23]
As an interceptor pilot, I hate precisions and I kindly ask you to keep saying that they're crap so people won't use them. Thanks
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Ruban Spangler
Caldari Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Tread Alliance
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Posted - 2010.02.26 16:46:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Sudey Everytime I fit HAMs, I find myself MWD'ing around trying to get into range.
Everytime I fit HMLs, I don't find range is the issue, but I'm low on the KM for total damage.
So whatever you fit, it'll be wrong
This is my experience too. Bene Gesserit is recruiting. |
Malcofist Falconpunch
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Posted - 2010.04.19 09:06:00 -
[25]
In lowsec a ham drake served me well. But out in nullsec not going to do you 'much' good. Engagements go from 8km to 120km and beyond. Does alot of good that you can actually hit your target
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Ste Weiss
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Posted - 2010.04.23 11:58:00 -
[26]
HAMS are great... for short range fights, and great for picking off ceptors and other tackle boats.
HM's are the sniper comparison... longer range / less dps, and without a painter it aint gna do much dps to anything frig size.
Think of it as this:
Turret base ships have 2 types of turrets for their desired race: Autocannons = hams, quicker ROF, shorter range Artillary = heavy missiles, slow ROF, longer range (although arty volley damage is immense)
Blasters = IMMENSE short range / dps / higher ROF Rails = Longer range / slightly higher ROF / crap dps
Pulse Lasers = High ROF / shorter range / high dps Beam Lasers = Slightly slower ROF / long range
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Sassy Smurf
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Posted - 2010.04.23 18:30:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Ste Weiss HAMS are great... for short range fights, and great for picking off ceptors and other tackle boats.
HM's are the sniper comparison... longer range / less dps, and without a painter it aint gna do much dps to anything frig size.
Think of it as this:
Turret base ships have 2 types of turrets for their desired race: Autocannons = hams, quicker ROF, shorter range Artillary = heavy missiles, slow ROF, longer range (although arty volley damage is immense)
Blasters = IMMENSE short range / dps / higher ROF Rails = Longer range / slightly higher ROF / crap dps
Pulse Lasers = High ROF / shorter range / high dps Beam Lasers = Slightly slower ROF / long range
The information about HAMS vs HML in this post has alot of bad information.
HAMs ~20% more max damage (Good for DPS on heavy EHP ships, or most BC and above)
HMLs ~3.5X greater range -50% reduction in velocity penalty ~25% reduction in signature penalty - FOF missile capability - More grid for that Med Neut
Really, unless they up the damage significantly to HAMs, the 20% more possible damage bonus to only large targets is not enough for me atleast to fit them.
With respect to the above post,
HAMs are only like short range guns with respect to increased damage, and decreased range. HML have significant advantage for most cruiser and below ships.
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Pooned alot
Amarr Cold Steel Inc.
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Posted - 2010.04.25 16:43:00 -
[28]
Hams are best used on the amarr missile boats, they dont suffer as sever a drawback in mobility. The sacriledge is a permacap dual-repping dps ham monster, and is also quick enough to maintain ranges
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Dodgy Past
Amarr Debitum Naturae BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2010.04.25 18:39:00 -
[29]
Originally by: c0olGuY77 so if i am understanding this right, people fit heavies for flexibility, and fitting issues, as most of the gangs in 0.0 will fight in range that is suitable for HAMs, at least in small fleets. Im i correct in stating this?
Your misunderstanding is assuming even small engagements remain at close range, especially with Dramiels and Cynabals as FOTM ships. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- you seem determined to turn it into ******* Hollyoaks for neckbeards. |
Yoshite McLulzypants
Gallente People called Romanes they go the house
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Posted - 2010.04.25 22:10:00 -
[30]
You appear on the killmail as soon as your launcher is activated, so for blob fights it doesn't matter what launcher you have as long as you have enough sensor boosters.
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