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Zartanic
Red Federation
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Posted - 2010.02.14 05:20:00 -
[331]
Edited by: Zartanic on 14/02/2010 05:21:57
Originally by: Wakboth
Quote:
No this is a valid point if a low sp character is every bit as good as a higher sp character with the proper player skill and i can find at least 15 times in this thread alone where that was stated. Why bother buying characters with high sp ???
Don't try and avoid the question
That's a valid question : why? There is no reason in my mind. That's why i played for 1 year with a noob character when i had my 5 yo. And i don't mean playing one and just changing skills for alt, my pvp alt did the cosmos missions and raised its standings alone. I could have bought a 20M alt with my main's money, but the character wouldn't have been "mine".
And i won't sell both, if i stop this game one day, my characters will die at this moment.
It may be a valid question and it's already been answered, it's also a strawman and irrelevant to his point, which he keeps changing anyway. The Op is trolling and ignoring answers he does not like, which is most of them. He is also someone who gets an idea stuck in his head and is incapable of seeing that reasons for anything in life can be numerous and complex. He was certainly never a hard core player in any game as that needs study, listening to others, actual practise in the game and understanding new concepts and game mechanics. Exactly how EVE rewards players who actually play the game. He was just a grinder who happened to be logged into a game for long hours tagging on to those who did know what to do at best while seeing but not learning. He would have lasted 5 minutes in my 'corp' of the last game I played. Players like him were removed fast as they were a liability although he would have failed the interview anyway through lack of basic knowledge and inability to grasp simple concepts.
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.02.14 05:50:00 -
[332]
Originally by: Chesterr theMolester
Originally by: Ranger 1
Originally by: Chesterr theMolester
OK if I am wrong about this why is there even a character bazar where characters do sell for billions of isk if they have high sp.
If a low sp toon is every bit as good as a high sp toon as long as you got the skill to play the game why bother buying a high sp character?
You're trying too hard. 
No this is a valid point if a low sp character is every bit as good as a higher sp character with the proper player skill and i can find at least 15 times in this thread alone where that was stated. Why bother buying characters with high sp ???
Don't try and avoid the question
Nobody said a low-SP character is every bit as good as a high-SP character.
All people have said a high-SP character is NOT the one and only prerequisite for success in the EVE world.
There's a small but subtle difference, and since you don't get "in your face and bluntly", how could we ever expect you to understand subtle differences ?
A high-SP character is incredibly better compared to a starter-SP character, that much is true, and that wasn't being denied nor hidden at all.
However, when compared to a moderate-to-low-SP character, that high-SP character suddenly becomes... not that impressive anymore.
In fact, if the moderate-to-low-SP character is specialized in the ship he flies, the high-SP-character becomes "not really that big of a deal" in the larger scheme of things, especially if HIS training isn't particularly focused on the ship HE flies. And no, your previous argument of "docking up and undocking in something to combat you specifically" doesn't hold much water... in fact, it only BARELY holds any water whatsoever for lame highsec dock-game wars, which... well, let's just pretend for the sake of our collective sanity people wouldn't want to be involved in them.
On the other hand, take the precise example of, say, Meta-4 modules ("best named") compared to Meta-5 modules (Tech 2) and Meta-6 modules ("(navy) faction").
Tech2 modules are usually the hardest to fit (both skill and PG/CPU-wise), but they are somewhat better-performing compared to best named (merely by the bonus granted by the spec skill). For very often used modules (weapons, usually, especially those useful in PvE), you will notice that the best-named variant has vastly increased prices compared to the T2 variant, in spite of that.
At the same time, navy faction modules are barely better performing compared to T2 (the difference becomes almost minimal in the proper circumstances when T2 ammo is used in the T2 weapons), but are insanely more pricey compared to the T2 version or the best named version, let alone the Meta-3 version.
At least faction modules usually have an excuse for that - that's roughly how much they "cost" in terms of LP/ISK when purchased from LP-shops... but for things in incredibly high demand (like, say, heavy missile launchers), even the meta-3 version can be very expensive.
It is not at all uncommon to pay anywhere from x10 to over x100 price for merely a 15% to 25% increase in effectiveness.
This is one critical factor you have to remember, and not even for that long since we're getting to it again soon.
Now, back to the character sales issues.
MOST HIGH-SP CHARACTERS SELL FOR PRICES UNDER THE TOTAL ISK THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN NECESSARY TO GROW THEM TO THAT SPECIFIC SP TOTAL.
Given the previous thing you should have remembered, one can only conclude that people don't really regard high-SP characters as all that valuable, but merely as things that have a high generation cost, and the sales price represents an attempt to recover (at least partially) the creation cost.
If they really regarded them as oh-so-valuable, they'd never part with them for anything even close to the costs involved, but instead demand much more.
THEY ARE NOT DOING THAT !
Ergo, high SP is "meh".
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting
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Chesterr theMolester
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Posted - 2010.02.14 06:33:00 -
[333]
Ok you did it again you compltetly avoided what i asked.
Never once did i ask why people sell high sp toons for the cost it would have been to make it i asked WHY DO PEOPLE >>>>BUY<<<<< HIGH SP TOONS
INSTEAD OF JUST MAKING A LOW SP ALT AND DOING IT THEM SELF?
And im not looking for the smart ass reply of the very few people who do this, the number of character buyers i am sure out weighs the number of people who do it all over again with an alt.
You think you have torn my agrument apart when all you have done is nitpick a sentence or two within each of my post and followed it with a question of your own.
And i will state it again for the people who have failed to read this thread about gaining sp while active.
and replied with well i'll stay docked or i'll stay in a pos bubble.
Very simple mechanics to implement an afk timer as well as identify Macro users. You people seems to think they manually identify macro users
unless they are complete fail ccp has got a system in place to reconize programs running on their client hell even simple FPS games have this ability while online.
As far as eve having the most long term user subs please provide proof of this or don't use it as an agrument i could just as well say they have the least of any game out.
I could also argue that they are counting characters that have been transfered from account to account as long time subs when in fact a 5+ year old toon could have transfered accounts serveral times and stayed on an account no longer than 12 months at a time. As far as continued growth of the game more and more people are going from 1 account to 2 from two to 3 and on up i already know people with 5 or so accounts this does not count as population growth 1 player with 5 accounts is still one player.
Now this game has 300k some subs first including multible accounts
say 25 % of these are 2 account users (i am sure it is much higher than that when you take into account the 3,4,5 account users) That would put the numbers around 250k players and thats being generous as the most ive even seen online at any given time has just scratched the surface of 50k.
This number even at the 300k mark doesn't touch the likes of even old school games like EQ lineage 1,2 ect.
Also some where in this post someone claimed that ccp said accounts do not last longer than a year on avgerage. so don't try to toss out statments like oldest accounts longest subs and continued growth.
even games that failed like warhammer and AOC tops eve subs at its best.
now don't take this as me calling it a bad game but that agrument is just very poor. in the words of the human torch FLAME ON 
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Slade Hoo
Amarr
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2010.02.14 06:47:00 -
[334]
post with your main or gtfo
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I'm just a lonely pirate on my way to ascension |
Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.02.14 06:49:00 -
[335]
Edited by: Akita T on 14/02/2010 06:56:15
Originally by: Chesterr theMolester
WHY DO PEOPLE >>>>BUY<<<<< HIGH SP TOONS
INSTEAD OF JUST MAKING A LOW SP ALT AND DOING IT THEM SELF?
BECAUSE IT'S CHEAPER THAN DOING IT YOURSELF AND ALSO INSTANT, YOU FREAKING MORON, THAT'S WHY !
And it has been answered without the cursing before, hopefully this time you'll get it.
Originally by: Chesterr theMolester
You people seems to think they manually identify macro users unless they are complete fail ccp has got a system in place to reconize programs running on their client hell even simple FPS games have this ability while online.
WE KNOW THAT THEY MANUALLY IDENTIFY THEM, because unlike big-brotheresque publishers, CCP know that a big chunk of EVE players would not stand for invasive "anti-cheat" measures (especially since, let's face it, the potential for end-user damage in case the CCP-made theoretical "spyware" you are proposing could be indescribable).
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting
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Atticus Fynch
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Posted - 2010.02.14 06:50:00 -
[336]
I haven't read the whole thread, but one thing old players have over new ones: T2 BPOs.
Once given out by lottery, now only available (for billions) by purchase only.
This alone gives old players a BIG advantage.
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.02.14 07:10:00 -
[337]
Originally by: Atticus Fynch
I haven't read the whole thread, but one thing old players have over new ones: T2 BPOs.
Once given out by lottery, now only available (for billions) by purchase only.
This alone gives old players a BIG advantage.
Yeah, SOUNDS all completely unfair and whatnot the first time you hear about that...
...except for the part where pretty much all the good ones are no longer in the hands of the persons that received them initially, so whoever has them now actually EARNED them
...and the part where the introduction of the invention mechanic radically cut down their potential profit from the good old days
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting
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Elena Laskova
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Posted - 2010.02.14 07:26:00 -
[338]
Edited by: Elena Laskova on 14/02/2010 07:29:29
The issue raised by OP is real, and IMO it's well worth discussing.
Like most EvE players I don't agree with OP's proposed solution. But that's a different matter altogether.
Every player new to an established MMO should ask themselves "can I ever catch up to the people who have been playing for years?". This means in player skill, in in-game capabilities (SP in EvE), economically (ISK per hour in EvE), socially (get access to a good 0.0 Corp), etc.
If the answer is "no" for that person, the game is not worth joining.
Since it's suddenly popular to compare with WoW, let's look at some of the factoids which have been presented in this very thread:
* 20 L10 WoW players have no chance against a max-level player
* At the start of Burning Crusade (expansion before the current one) the maximum level could be achieved in a few days.
We can deduce that EvE-related arguments based on the first WoW point above are cheap lies, since the situation described occurs for a vanishingly small part of the first few day's play.
I have a challenge for the rest of you: explain, politely and rationally, with no cheap lies, no unjustified denial, no ad hominem attacks, no irrelevant WoW-nonsense, why a new player has no reason to be concerned that they'll never catch up.
And don't forget to include something on CCP's intentions, because as someone has (finally) pointed out, players need to be very sure CCP will never pull another stupid trick like T2 BPOs. Perhaps you could explain how a new player can get to the point where they can fly a T3 ship while obeying the rule "don't fly what you can't afford to lose".
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Chesterr theMolester
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Posted - 2010.02.14 07:45:00 -
[339]
Originally by: Elena Laskova
Edited by: Elena Laskova on 14/02/2010 07:29:29
The issue raised by OP is real, and IMO it's well worth discussing.
Like most EvE players I don't agree with OP's proposed solution. But that's a different matter altogether.
Every player new to an established MMO should ask themselves "can I ever catch up to the people who have been playing for years?". This means in player skill, in in-game capabilities (SP in EvE), economically (ISK per hour in EvE), socially (get access to a good 0.0 Corp), etc.
If the answer is "no" for that person, the game is not worth joining.
Since it's suddenly popular to compare with WoW, let's look at some of the factoids which have been presented in this very thread:
* 20 L10 WoW players have no chance against a max-level player
* At the start of Burning Crusade (expansion before the current one) the maximum level could be achieved in a few days.
We can deduce that EvE-related arguments based on the first WoW point above are cheap lies, since the situation described occurs for a vanishingly small part of the first few day's play.
I have a challenge for the rest of you: explain, politely and rationally, with no cheap lies, no unjustified denial, no ad hominem attacks, no irrelevant WoW-nonsense, why a new player has no reason to be concerned that they'll never catch up.
And don't forget to include something on CCP's intentions, because as someone has (finally) pointed out, players need to be very sure CCP will never pull another stupid trick like T2 BPOs. Perhaps you could explain how a new player can get to the point where they can fly a T3 ship while obeying the rule "don't fly what you can't afford to lose".
^^^^^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^^^^
thank you for seeing my point
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Tason Hyena
Minmatar
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2010.02.14 07:51:00 -
[340]
They don't need to catch up because the amount of skills you need to do the action you want is actually small. High SP just does 1 of two things:
1) makes you more versatile
2) gives you access to the high-end play you could call endgame: leading alliances, piloting supercapitals, etc.
With 2 you might have a point if 2 didnt also require a lot from the player as well in time and isk.
If you want to do a single task, you can be good at it quickly, and high sp people wont have that much of an advantage over you.
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Gorefacer
Caldari
Resurrection
Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.02.14 07:56:00 -
[341]
You think that SP should be related to time you spend in game.
I believe the system is better the way it is.
Since we believe polar opposites of the same discussion lets both stop posting about it to even things out.
"You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
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Chesterr theMolester
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Posted - 2010.02.14 08:00:00 -
[342]
Elena Laskova
I am willing to bet no one will give a direct response to your challenge you are jsut gonna get more and more of "they dont need to catch up" " it's skill not sp"
How many low sp alliances / corps hold 00 space?
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Gorefacer
Caldari
Resurrection
Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.02.14 08:03:00 -
[343]
Originally by: Chesterr theMolester
Elena Laskova
I am willing to bet no one will give a direct response to your challenge you are jsut gonna get more and more of "they dont need to catch up" " it's skill not sp"
How many low sp alliances / corps hold 00 space?
it's funny watching you clutch to the ONE person who gave you a favorable response.
"You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.02.14 08:13:00 -
[344]
Originally by: Elena Laskova
Since it's suddenly popular to compare with WoW, let's look at some of the factoids which have been presented in this very thread:
* 20 L10 WoW players have no chance against a max-level player
* At the start of Burning Crusade (expansion before the current one) the maximum level could be achieved in a few days.
We can deduce that EvE-related arguments based on the first WoW point above are cheap lies, since the situation described occurs for a vanishingly small part of the first few day's play.
When I started, it took me well over 2 months to go past 2 mil SP, and could barely afford a lousy Ferox to run L2s in some time in the 3rd month... all of that due to how character starter SP was set up, due to the way the learning skills used to work, due to how expensive all implants were, due to the nearly non-existing "new player experience" and last but not least due to how much weaker player ships used to be compared to NPCs.
Mind you, that was not my first attempt at the game, it was my 7th (or was it 8th?) trial account, the one I was finally satisfied with, and proceeded to activate it... and it's been active ever since.
Half a year ago, as I have previously mentioned on one of the previous pages, I created an "experimental" alt for the sole purpose of seeing just how different the new players have it these days.
Not only did I go past 2 mil SP in the first month, but I also had basically next to no problems financially speaking. By the end of the third week, I was radically better off than my main was by the end of its third month.
Probably not exactly the same thing, but a very similar approach - the game was made noticeably easier at the lower levels, vastly accelerating new player development compared to what used to be the norm a long time ago.
Also, back on the WoW comparison train, it was more like "10x L40+ in greens vs one L80 in FOTM arena gear", so how about that ?
Quote:
I have a challenge for the rest of you: explain, politely and rationally, with no cheap lies, no unjustified denial, no ad hominem attacks, no irrelevant WoW-nonsense, why a new player has no reason to be concerned that they'll never catch up.
Has been already explained.
For any given ship, there's a limited amount of skills that are relevant.
For any given skill, you can not go beyond L5.
Therefore, for any specific ship, a new player will EVENTUALLY catch up with a very old player. In fact, by heavy specialisation, a new player could actually surpass most older players, because most older players seldom max out all relevant skills for the simple reason of "it's just not worth the time for me", preferring to branch out and try many different ships, or different professions.
Of course, a disorganized and undecided new player will always remain behind overall.
Quote:
And don't forget to include something on CCP's intentions, because as someone has (finally) pointed out, players need to be very sure CCP will never pull another stupid trick like T2 BPOs. Perhaps you could explain how a new player can get to the point where they can fly a T3 ship while obeying the rule "don't fly what you can't afford to lose".
There was this little experiment over in MD not that long ago, where a trading veteran attempted to see just how much ISK he could make only by trading from the measly 5000 ISK you're given at the start, with absolutely no help whatsoever.
His "goal" was 1 bil ISK by the end of the month.
He "only" made it a bit past half a billion ISK by the end of the first month, and that was just actual ISK remaining, because he spent some of it on skills, implants and other "necessities".
So...
SP-wise ? For any specific task, via specialisation, catching up ? Check.
ISK-wise ? With brains and patience, check.
Social-wise ? Most corps are STARVING for new blood, some will even take 15-day newbies and both train and support them just to keep them.
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting
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Chesterr theMolester
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Posted - 2010.02.14 08:13:00 -
[345]
Originally by: Gorefacer
Originally by: Chesterr theMolester
Elena Laskova
I am willing to bet no one will give a direct response to your challenge you are jsut gonna get more and more of "they dont need to catch up" " it's skill not sp"
How many low sp alliances / corps hold 00 space?
it's funny watching you clutch to the ONE person who gave you a favorable response.
It's funny no watching people not have a valid response as to why new players should not worry about catching up
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.02.14 08:19:00 -
[346]
Originally by: Chesterr theMolester
How many low sp alliances / corps hold 00 space?
Ever heard of an alliance called GOONSWARM ?!?
They were notorious for starting off en-masse as a bunch of newbies in T1 frigates, practically "marching to the slaughter" if you were to believe the accounts of their enemies.
Well, these atrociously-low-SP newbies in their dirt-cheap ships very soon became a force to be reckoned with, managing to not just hold their own against alliances with a heavy high-SP pilot count, but eventually driving them out of their home regions via persistence, political machinations, social engineering and possibly just a bit of luck.
Nowadays, even after a recently dealt heavy blow... by their own "commander in chief", no less... they are still a force to be reckoned with.
Those are the kind of people you claim would have had no chances.
If anybody is the counter-proof to your ridiculous thread, it's the Goons.
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting
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Chesterr theMolester
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Posted - 2010.02.14 08:22:00 -
[347]
I CAN TYPE IT CAPS BECAUSE I THINK IT PROVES MY POINT BETTER
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.02.14 08:24:00 -
[348]
Edited by: Akita T on 14/02/2010 08:25:59
Originally by: Chesterr theMolester
I CAN TYPE IT CAPS BECAUSE I THINK IT PROVES MY POINT BETTER
And you continue to ignore just about every counter-argument as if none was ever made.
You're not trying to have a reasonable debate, you're just playing back bits and pieces of the broken record which is your "new players have no chance" preconception.
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.02.14 08:43:00 -
[349]
how the hell did this troll**** get to 12 pages 
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.02.14 08:44:00 -
[350]
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
how the hell did this troll**** get to 12 pages
Because when somebody is wrong on the internets...
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.02.14 08:46:00 -
[351]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
how the hell did this troll**** get to 12 pages
Because when somebody is wrong on the internets...
but when it is so obvious 
you have let me down Akita T 
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.02.14 08:52:00 -
[352]
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
but when it is so obvious
Obvious to me, you or anybody that's been playing for a while without wownerdragequitting, sure.
Not so obvious at all to genuine newcomers, quite the opposite, they'd take it seriously, because at first glimpse, this is EXACTLY how EVE looks like, especially to people coming from "grindtastic" MMOs.
You can "beat" trolls in two ways : either ignoring them, or with fire.
Some trolls, like this one, you just can't ignore, even if you're almost completely certain they're trolls.
Then, there's always that ever so slight chance they're not trolls, but genuine morons.
Either way, in cases like this, the only appropriate response is "burn it with fire".
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting
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Parvulus Dei
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Posted - 2010.02.14 08:52:00 -
[353]
I know I'm being trolled here... But I just can't help it. However I see right through your fault here.
EVE unlike other mmos does not have a endgame, EVE is about the Journey with many different paths and styles of play. For that reason EVE requires a completely different mindset.
That being said EVE has ALOT of problems and I truly mean that, However the skill gap, Vets verses Rookies abilities is not one of them.
OP you also mentioned if Low SP alliances/corps could hold 0.0 space. As much as I hate to admit look at goonswarm for example, they are nothing more then a bunch of meme spewing ***gots and trolls. Yet they had huge portions of space and brought people to their knees with nothing more then low SP toons and cheap low end crap.
However I am willing to debate and I am also curious on the honest feelings from people in "high end alliances" like IT and Atlas and if you ever had any doubts on the new player vs Vet gap and it's fairness.
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Grarr Dexx
Amarr
GK inc.
Panda Team
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Posted - 2010.02.14 09:09:00 -
[354]
Stop ****ing posting in this thread. The OP is an ignorant ****** that grasps at straws at any opportunity.
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Chesterr theMolester
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Posted - 2010.02.14 09:15:00 -
[355]
If the higher sp toons do not have an edge why are you guys fighting so hard to make sure you keep it??
I mean after all noobs like me would just loose out expensive ships right
So whats the big deal let us noobs have a chance to close the total sp gap between new and old players.
This should make it more fun for you uber leet eve is so more uber complex then anything in the world vets you people already stated that you love taking out noobs with expensive ships.
So please tell my why almost 11k views and over 300 replies to this if its no big deal just let us close the total sp gap cus total sp is no big deal anyways..
So again why are you guys fighting so hard to make sure it doesn't change your leet skills would surly out do mine because my total sp won't matter and it will boil down to me being a noob with an expensive ship.
And if you think this is a troll you don't need to post go find something else to do go log into eve and hone those skills and make that isk.
EVE looks this way at first glance BECAUSE IT IS this way
if it wasn't these people would not be fighting so hard to keep us new players from closing the total sp gap.
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.02.14 09:33:00 -
[356]
Originally by: Chesterr theMolester
blah blah blah
High SP counts, just like faction ships, officer gear, medals, certificates, killboard ratios and whatnot are mainly STATUS SYMBOLS.
Yes, they do matter somewhat, but they're not terribly important compared to the effort that was necessary to get them.
It's the perfect trade-off :
* older players are happy a longer time because they have something to point at and go "look at this big number, this is mine, I'm content with my achievements",
* average-age players are happy longer because they can already play almost on even footing with the older players, still having some skill levels that might make a difference in some situations to train for
* and newer players are happy because in numbers they can already make a difference even if solo they would be slaughtered, and they will soon become average-age players so they have that to look forward to too.
What you seem to be proposing is to rip any sense of accomplishment from older players (because that's about all that high SP count really means, a kind of a "badge of honour") for no good reason at all, radically reduce the length of time you spend at average SP counts, and all but eliminate the early stages of low-SP, where most of the ACTUAL learning takes place in EVE.
You're proposing to fast-track everybody into a situation where they can use expensive stuff they're much more likely to lose than be able to properly use, suffering from high death penalty (and die they will, in droves, because they lack experience) and plateauing very early on to a lack of easy temporary goals to look forward too, most of them unable to come to the conclusion they have to start setting their own goals.
___
Hey, how about we make it so there are no SP at all, and everybody can use anything to full effect from day one ?
I mean, who cares most people will complain there's no progress to be had, and that they'd rather play wow instead, if that makes newcomers happy for all the 1-2 months they'll stay ?
Sure, let's also make it so that ISK doesn't matter either, give everybody everything from the get go !
Oh, oh, I know, how about we keep almost everything the way it is now, but we reset the servers every 3 months or so !
Nahh, on second thought, we should probably go play counter-strike instead.
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.02.14 09:45:00 -
[357]
can I get a tl;dr on the op?
all I got out of it was I wanna 40h a week for 2 years and be uber... hell 40h a week for 2 years and you should be able to buy like 10 years worth of sp.
plus all the people that already 40h a week will still be lightyears ahead of you.
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Chesterr theMolester
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Posted - 2010.02.14 09:52:00 -
[358]
Edited by: Chesterr theMolester on 14/02/2010 09:54:51
Quote:
It's the perfect trade-off :
* older players are happy a longer time because they have something to point at and go "look at this big number, this is mine, I'm content with my achievements",
* average-age players are happy longer because they can already play almost on even footing with the older players, still having some skill levels that might make a difference in some situations to train for
* and newer players are happy because in numbers they can already make a difference even if solo they would be slaughtered, and they will soon become average-age players so they have that to look forward to too.
This is what is called an Infinite_regress Where as the oldest player will always be on top the average player will become the older player the new player will become the average player and a new string of new players come in.
Then we have the oldest oldest player than an older player than an old play and average player then still more new players see this will continue to be a problem every day new players join this regress is happening making the gap wider and wider
new players are not getting any edge but every day new players start this gap widens.
It will only get worse with time when tech two titans get release or any thing like it in the future because you know damn well the older players will want something beter than the titan as time goes on and only the oldest oldest players have the ability to use them and its gonna take much more skilled and Versatile players sp wise to defend it. Like it or not one day the game will have to make a change it doesn't sound like CCP is intending to close the doors on this game anytime soon with all the new stuff in development. And i am sure they are losing more new player accounts then old player accounts due to the main subject of this entire post.
Oh and i almost forgot no one ever said why a new player should not worry about catching older players in total sp and versatility not specialization
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Avalon Champion
Gene Works
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Posted - 2010.02.14 09:57:00 -
[359]
Quote:
Since it's suddenly popular to compare with WoW, let's look at some of the factoids which have been presented in this very thread:
* 20 L10 WoW players have no chance against a max-level player
* At the start of Burning Crusade (expansion before the current one) the maximum level could be achieved in a few days.
We can deduce that EvE-related arguments based on the first WoW point above are cheap lies, since the situation described occurs for a vanishingly small part of the first few day's play.
I have a challenge for the rest of you: explain, politely and rationally, with no cheap lies, no unjustified denial, no ad hominem attacks, no irrelevant WoW-nonsense, why a new player has no reason to be concerned that they'll never catch up.
Elena, I'll take on your challenge to explain this.
Lets take a 40mil sp player and a 4 mil SP player, flying cruisers, assume they are both flying T1
4 mil SP in a focused toon should be able to be there or there abouts on par with a 40mil player, in a T1 fit, T1 cruiser.
the noob has 1.6 mil in spaceship (Racial Cruiser 4, Frig 4, and Speaceship 4), 400k in armour tanking skills (Armour Rep 4, Hull 4, and all 4 Armour comps at 4).
Weapons wise, he has 1.5 mil in the weapons, Gunnary 5, Sharp shooter 4, Motion pred 4, Small and Med turret 4, Weapon Upgrade 4, Controlled 4.
The other 300k is in support Engineering 4, Elecronics 4, and a few others that he started with and no learning (which contrary to popular belief ISNT a requirement).
The 40mil SP player will have all those at 5, which gives him a marginal edge, in a T1 ship.
In this scenario, the 40mil vet has an edge over the noob, in that he has better support skills, and also more knowledge of the game, however this can be mitigated with ship and ammo choices, and fits, or the Noob gets the drop on the higher SP player, eg the vet is semi afk at a gate camp, isnt paying attention as hes chatting with his corp mates or playing on the market with his alt.
Now as the noob get towards 8mil sp (about 7 months in again assuming no Learning), it will be a fairly even match, with the noob being able to compete an a realatively even playing field.
At 8 mil you should have the majority of your core supports to level 5, with some at level 4, T2 weapons to medium, T2 tank, cruiser and frig 5, with maybe T2 Assault frigs to 4, and BC 4.
In that same time the vet may will have got 8 mil, but that could be in Capital skills, or have spent it on cross training for another races hull.
Your question about T3, is spurious, but if the noob really wanted to he could be in a T2 cruiser within 6 months, as Akita has pointed out, a trader went from 5000 isk to 500mil in 1 month, granted he knew the game but even at 200mil a month is feasible.
T3's have dropped in price, and can be set up for around 500mil for the hull and subsystems.
The 'dont fly if you cant afford to loose it' referes to being able to replace the ship, I personally take the view, its a pixel ship, so what if i loose it, I'll save up and buy another, i aint going to cry about it.
I hope this helps you understand.
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Elena Laskova
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Posted - 2010.02.14 10:03:00 -
[360]
OP has a valid question. It has not been fully addressed yet.
Denying the existence of an issue doesn't address it. You have to prove that while the question is relevant and valid, the suggested negative consequence (new players can't catch up) isn't true.
Let's look at another dimension: ISK.
How long does it take from starting EvE to being able to fly a T2 hull with T2 fittings, whiling conforming to the rule "don't fly what you can't afford to lose"?
"How Long" has two aspects: Elapsed time (which converts to SP) and playing time (required to establish the players ability to earn ISK, and to grind the ISK).
Lets define "can afford to lose" as "a replacement can be purchased with the ISK obtained from 150 minutes or less of grinding ISK".
Please note that answers like "Rifters are the good combat ships" are completely irrelevant. The question states T2 hull with T2 fittings.
Note also that maximum mission income requires a Maurauder (with it's SP requirements and high cost) and quite a lot of standings grinding. Don't forget to factor such things into the answer.
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