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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.02.08 12:02:00 -
[1]
What's the point of this ship? It's a complete joke in comparison to the Dramiel and Daredevil. 115 DPS with Warriors and roflkets is pathetic. Speed of 3 km/s is unremarkable, 10k EHP with a MSE, DC and triple extender rigs is nice but not actually that useful.
The shield resist bonus is nice, but the others are hopeless. Missile velocity for two roflkets and dronebay size? Urgh. Missile velocity is nice on the Rattler and Gila because these ships engage at different ranges and use different missiles, but here it does nothing. Basically everything a Worm can do can be done in a MSE Ishkur. The 35 DPS from the two roflkets is utterly hopeless - and remember you need two webs and a scrambler to actually apply that miniscule 35 DPS to another frigate, and there's no CPU to fit BCS to increase this. Sure, roflkets are supposed to be being fixed, but no reasonable roflket fix will actually make them worth fitting on a Worm, otherwise we'd probably end up with 400 DPS Kestrels or something silly.
1. Fix roflkets. 2. Change worthless missile velocity bonus to damage bonus. 3. Change dronebay bonus to drone damage/HP bonus, and give 50 m3 dronebay as base. 4. More CPU so it can actually fit BCS if it wants.
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Abortica Inbortaliss
The United Snakes IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.02.08 12:57:00 -
[2]
worms would actually be worth more than 2 million isk in jita and hanger dust would get blown off. plus caldari frigate 5 would mean something
Our favorite patient, display of patience, disease-covered Puget Sound She'll come back as fire, to burn all the liars, and leave a blanket of ash on the ground |
Knockout Artist
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Posted - 2010.02.08 13:37:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Gypsio III roflkets
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.02.08 13:40:00 -
[4]
If it was meant to be any good, do you think they would have named it "Worm"? Of course not, it would be "Dragonfly" or "Viper" or something similarly manly
The idea of giving it a damage bonus to drones is pretty good. No ship other than the Sentinel has that if I recall so it would be pretty unique in its class. Either way, it should be a miniature version of the Rattlesnake/Gila so a drone bonus would fit in nicely indeed.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.02.08 13:44:00 -
[5]
I posted this in Test Server Feedback. I guess it got moved here for not being about the Vindicator.
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Belysia
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Posted - 2010.02.08 14:03:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida If it was meant to be any good, do you think they would have named it "Worm"? Of course not, it would be "Dragonfly" or "Viper" or something similarly manly
The idea of giving it a damage bonus to drones is pretty good. No ship other than the Sentinel has that if I recall so it would be pretty unique in its class. Either way, it should be a miniature version of the Rattlesnake/Gila so a drone bonus would fit in nicely indeed.
how is dragon fly manly
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Proxyyyy
Caldari The Tuskers
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Posted - 2010.02.08 14:15:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Proxyyyy on 08/02/2010 14:18:47 Omg! Its like people dont seem to notice its not a missile boat = / I thought so i ignored most who commented on its lame missle damage. The gila, rattlesnake and worm are DRONE BOATS! I personaly liked when they were missile boats and was dissapointed ccp tainted them with gallente drone garbage (RANDOM RP) which in my opinion is pretty gimp.
So if you want a faction missile boat go with the hookbill its the only faction frig thats a missile boat period...
In anycase in zee fits ive seen and my own rocekts are just used to add what little damage it can with a neut to kill t1/af/inty cap.
Again for zee people who dont seem to get it! ZEE SHIP IS A DRONE BOAT, NOT A MISSILE BOAT! Separate rockets and the worm completely...
Now go out and fly it or dont it doesnt matter!
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.02.08 14:24:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Proxyyyy Again for zee people who dont seem to get it! ZEE SHIP IS A DRONE BOAT, NOT A MISSILE BOAT!
Thanks for that, Captain Obvious.
It's a terrible drone boat. It's out of line with the Gila and Rattler, which are regarded as good but balanced ships, relative to their class counterparts. Five unbonused light drones is pathetic, it's 80 DPS from Warriors. On the Iskkur the drones are in conjunction with 3 blasters/rail, and a certain other pirate frigate has 60% of the Worm's drone DPS.
Hell, you could give it 20% drone damage/HP per level and the 160 DPS from Warriors hardly sounds excessive, relative to its classmates.
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2010.02.08 15:07:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Proxyyyy Again for zee people who dont seem to get it! ZEE SHIP IS A DRONE BOAT, NOT A MISSILE BOAT!
Thanks for that, Captain Obvious.
It's a terrible drone boat. It's out of line with the Gila and Rattler, which are regarded as good but balanced ships, relative to their class counterparts. Five unbonused light drones is pathetic, it's 80 DPS from Warriors. On the Iskkur the drones are in conjunction with 3 blasters/rail, and a certain other pirate frigate has 60% of the Worm's drone DPS.
Hell, you could give it 20% drone damage/HP per level and the 160 DPS from Warriors hardly sounds excessive, relative to its classmates.
Yeah the worm should be the only drone frigate with drone bonuses, would fix this ship in one swift shot imo.
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Proxyyyy
Caldari The Tuskers
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Posted - 2010.02.08 15:10:00 -
[10]
Im not gunna repeat the ishkurs weaknesses. Iv also engaged pilots random atempts to put mse's on a ishkur and on just about everything. Apart from the fact by doing so you gimp the ships ability to engage other frigates, armor plating gives much better results.
In relative terms the worm is indeed inline with its older sibling as the missile damage between the gila and worm is proportional and not substantial over its main weapon system drones. The few good pilots that do fly the worm dont even fit rockets. Using duel neuts because of the worms large capacitor and lack of cap usage. Include the fact you still have full tackle while still having a large buffer. Ships like the daredevil have no chance with its weak tank which is some what compensated by large amouts of damage but against the more ballanced worm falls.
When i first got the worm and dram i struggled with the worm. I tried to compare it with the dram which its not! When i finaly came across others who where butt kicking all faction frigs with it, i was sure my fit was on the right track as far as playing to the ships strengths...
Yeep actually many pilots do believe the worm is a missile boat often admitting they never realy looked at its bonuses!
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.02.08 15:14:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Proxyyyy ...
Yes. And tell me what prevents your target to leave neut range , keep orbit at 9k and kill all your drones... And you got full tackle only if you give up dualprop.
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Proxyyyy
Caldari The Tuskers
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Posted - 2010.02.08 16:14:00 -
[12]
Im not a fan of duel prop to begin with and i also believe the only frig that should be duel prop'ed is the the dram. I have no issues at all = )
Btw i also go to null often with ab frigs and in all that time i have only lost a ab frig in null twice to any thing having to do with Hic/bubbles. The rest of the time it was due to ganks. Same with my other characters btw. My whole corp can back that up with mails bro! We use ab's on most are non interceptor frigs and it can be said that we are the GENOS of low sec...
If ab's where so bad then we would have no killz whatz so ever...
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Tulisin Dragonflame
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Posted - 2010.02.08 17:29:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Tulisin Dragonflame on 08/02/2010 17:36:12 Edited by: Tulisin Dragonflame on 08/02/2010 17:33:47 Edited by: Tulisin Dragonflame on 08/02/2010 17:30:35
Originally by: Gypsio III
3. Change dronebay bonus to drone damage/HP bonus, and give 50 m3 dronebay as base.
Lulz at giving a frigate a full set of bonused mediums. As fun as it'd be, I don't think thats going to happen. I do agree the "Hey, you get some backup lights!" bonus on small droneboats is annoying though. They should be able to field drones well by default, and have the bonuses enhance that.
The Worm is just another example of CCP just not using the whole bandwidth/drone bay separation to give a droneboat a lot more malleability. Give it 100 drone bay, keep the ability to field a full set of lights at max, and give it an inventive bonus like 10 % drone speed/tracking/range and we'll see a ship that is really good at having light drones zooming around doing things (approach with a set of small web drones, then almost instantly pull them back and switch to warriors, etc.)
Triple edit: Also, the description on the worm still mentions that it is has enhanced ewar capabilities, I wonder how people would feel if it got an ECM bonus instead of a shield bonus from the Caldari side and acted as a combined ECM/droneboat.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.02.08 18:50:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Tulisin Dragonflame
Originally by: Gypsio III
3. Change dronebay bonus to drone damage/HP bonus, and give 50 m3 dronebay as base.
Lulz at giving a frigate a full set of bonused mediums. As fun as it'd be, I don't think thats going to happen. I do agree the "Hey, you get some backup lights!" bonus on small droneboats is annoying though. They should be able to field drones well by default, and have the bonuses enhance that.
The Worm is just another example of CCP just not using the whole bandwidth/drone bay separation to give a droneboat a lot more malleability. Give it 100 drone bay, keep the ability to field a full set of lights at max, and give it an inventive bonus like 10 % drone speed/tracking/range and we'll see a ship that is really good at having light drones zooming around doing things (approach with a set of small web drones, then almost instantly pull them back and switch to warriors, etc.)
Triple edit: Also, the description on the worm still mentions that it is has enhanced ewar capabilities, I wonder how people would feel if it got an ECM bonus instead of a shield bonus from the Caldari side and acted as a combined ECM/droneboat.
Dronebay = maximum carrying capacity, Bandwidth = maximum launch capability. 50m3 dronebay and 25m3 bandwidth is what it has now, he merely suggests that the dronebay bonus be changed to drone damage/hitpoint bonus and then increase base dronebay to 50m3.. Light web drones don't exist. Beyond damage and ECM, there are no really useful light drones.
The eWar bit is probably a reference to the extremely high sensor strength (15 on Worm vs. 11 on Merlin).
It is very curious why they chose to go with a dronebay bonus on the frigate and damage bonus on cruiser/BS. As long as the frigate is fat and slow a damage bonus wont unbalance things
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.02.08 19:04:00 -
[15]
Yeah I'm not proposing a 50 m3 bandwidth, and if the Worm did get it I'd still take two sets of lights.
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XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2010.02.08 19:10:00 -
[16]
1. Fix rockets - definitely 2. Change missile velocity - no, keeps inline with Gila/Rattlesnake 3. Change dronebay bonus to damage/HP and give default 50m3 dronebay - absolutely, puts it inline with Gila/Rattlesnake 4. More CPU - I'd say about 30 more would be sufficient.
None of these changes would make the Worm overpowered/unbalanced; current state of the Worm is pretty crap when you take into account the damage potential of other pirate frigates compared to the Worm's measly 5 unbonused drones and roflkets. _____________________________________________
-Sketch, Certified Pharmacist
Need a Boost?
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2010.02.08 19:29:00 -
[17]
The one advantage the Worm has over the Ishkur is a 4th mid for a cap booster. The MSE Ishkur has severe cap problems (assuming you are not an idiot and fit the proper MWD and 24k point), even if you give up your low slots for CPRs to keep everything running you are extremely vulnerable to neuts. A single neut can almost instantly shut down the Ishkur, but the Worm pilot just hits the cap booster and MWDs away.
Of course compared to the Dramiel it's just a hopeless cause. A balanced ship can not compete with a massively overpowered one. The solution is to abuse the Dramiel while you can, because it's about to get a well-deserved nerfing. Once the Dramiel is brought back in line with the other frigates, the Worm will become a good choice. -----------
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.02.08 20:17:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Gypsio III Yeah I'm not proposing a 50 m3 bandwidth, and if the Worm did get it I'd still take two sets of lights.
Which suggests it might not actually be that bad an idea. I mean, 5x Hammerhead IIs is what, 160dps, that isn't much good against another frigate?
I'm not actually sure that'd be a problem.
*shrug*. I'd tend to agree. I found I had a worm knocking around. Found it was terrible, and left it as a hangar ornament. Which compared to the Dramiel/Daredevil, it just ain't a patch on 'em.
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.02.08 21:13:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Gypsio III What's the point of this ship? It's a complete joke in comparison to the Dramiel and Daredevil. 115 DPS with Warriors and roflkets is pathetic. Speed of 3 km/s is unremarkable, 10k EHP with a MSE, DC and triple extender rigs is nice but not actually that useful.
The shield resist bonus is nice, but the others are hopeless. Missile velocity for two roflkets and dronebay size? Urgh. Missile velocity is nice on the Rattler and Gila because these ships engage at different ranges and use different missiles, but here it does nothing. Basically everything a Worm can do can be done in a MSE Ishkur. The 35 DPS from the two roflkets is utterly hopeless - and remember you need two webs and a scrambler to actually apply that miniscule 35 DPS to another frigate, and there's no CPU to fit BCS to increase this. Sure, roflkets are supposed to be being fixed, but no reasonable roflket fix will actually make them worth fitting on a Worm, otherwise we'd probably end up with 400 DPS Kestrels or something silly.
1. Fix roflkets. 2. Change worthless missile velocity bonus to damage bonus. 3. Change dronebay bonus to drone damage/HP bonus, and give 50 m3 dronebay as base. 4. More CPU so it can actually fit BCS if it wants.
/signed --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Natasha Nikolaev
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Posted - 2010.02.08 21:50:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Natasha Nikolaev on 08/02/2010 21:50:13
Originally by: Merin Ryskin A balanced ship can not compete with a massively overpowered one.
The worm isn't balanced, it's crap. And the dram isn't "massively overpowered", it's just an 80-90m frigate actually worth buying. I could see them drop 5m3 bandwidth/dronebay or very slightly reduce velocity, but that's about it.
Quote: Once the Dramiel is brought back in line with the other frigates, the Worm will become a good choice.
Yes, all of the worm's problems (terrible dps, lack of significant advantage over much cheaper alternative, etc.) will all go away if the dram is nerfed.
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Illectroculus Defined
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Posted - 2010.02.08 22:06:00 -
[21]
I remember messing around with this on the test server, I set it up with missiles, Purger rigs, MSE's and drones. It didn't move fast, but with the drones and missiles it could engage at range and put a whole bunch of damage on anything before it got close, and then the shield regen was enough to keep it alive in any 1v1 situation. It took 3 other t2/faction frigs working together to kill it, and even then it still managed to take one down in the process. Now... I was only messing around and nobody was fit with scrams/disruptors, so this may not be representative of the real world performance. Oh yeah, it was also the ship I took into the 'you will lose your ship' tutorial mission of doom and wiped out the entire NPC spawn, again, not representative or real world, but it must be doing something right.
Compared with the Ishkur the worm delivers less dps but can do it at much greater ranges, it probably does suck with rockets, if your ship gets a missile speed bonus then it's better to use that on light missiles to really get good ranges.
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2010.02.08 22:08:00 -
[22]
Damage Control II Co-Processor II Micro Auxiliary Power Core
1MN MWD Faint Epsilon Warp Scram Invulnerability Field II Medium F-S9 Shield Extender
2x Rocket Launcher II 1x 'Knave' NOS
3x Small Core Defence Field Extender I
12,902 EHP 134 dps (99 coming from 5x hobgoblin II)
Neut proof tackle that doesn't insta pop in web/scram range. Good for tackling heavier class ships that normally tear up tackling frigates. My only complaint is the need for 2x fitting mods. Otherwise its a good durable frig tackler.
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MalVortex
Reaper Industries Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2010.02.08 22:13:00 -
[23]
Confirming the worm needs some help, esp. in the fitting department. Look on the bright side though, its not as bad as a cruor
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.02.08 22:45:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Omarvelous Damage Control II Co-Processor II Micro Auxiliary Power Core
1MN MWD Faint Epsilon Warp Scram Invulnerability Field II Medium F-S9 Shield Extender
2x Rocket Launcher II 1x 'Knave' NOS
3x Small Core Defence Field Extender I
12,902 EHP 134 dps (99 coming from 5x hobgoblin II)
Neut proof tackle that doesn't insta pop in web/scram range. Good for tackling heavier class ships that normally tear up tackling frigates. My only complaint is the need for 2x fitting mods. Otherwise its a good durable frig tackler.
You realise I take it, that if all you want is a neut proof EHP frigate, the Merlin can do practically the same job, right?
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2010.02.08 23:22:00 -
[25]
Originally by: James Lyrus
Originally by: Omarvelous Damage Control II Co-Processor II Micro Auxiliary Power Core
1MN MWD Faint Epsilon Warp Scram Invulnerability Field II Medium F-S9 Shield Extender
2x Rocket Launcher II 1x 'Knave' NOS
3x Small Core Defence Field Extender I
12,902 EHP 134 dps (99 coming from 5x hobgoblin II)
Neut proof tackle that doesn't insta pop in web/scram range. Good for tackling heavier class ships that normally tear up tackling frigates. My only complaint is the need for 2x fitting mods. Otherwise its a good durable frig tackler.
You realise I take it, that if all you want is a neut proof EHP frigate, the Merlin can do practically the same job, right?
Merlin's can't carry a flight of 5x ecm drones. With combat drones the Worm does a lot more damage and much better ranges vs frigs. I think if you increase rocket damage/effectiveness the worm can be great. That or allowing a proper MSE + MWD fit without 2x fitting mods.
I guess what I'm saying is - at least its not as ****ty as a Hawk...
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.02.08 23:58:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Omarvelous ...
Awful fit. Neut proof? Look how much cap invul needs. No web, no dualprop, slow as ****... rly awesome tackler. Pls tell me, how do you plan tackling something with web, scram and med guns? Bah, i wont continue, gl with your ecm drones...
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.02.09 00:19:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Originally by: Omarvelous ...
Awful fit. Neut proof? Look how much cap invul needs. No web, no dualprop, slow as ****... rly awesome tackler. Pls tell me, how do you plan tackling something with web, scram and med guns? Bah, i wont continue, gl with your ecm drones...
It is pretty neut proof - though I would probably go with a disruptor or web in place of the invuln. Maybe try to go with 2 MAPC and 2 MSE? I don't have a fitting tool on hand so I can't say for sure.
All I know is that I have *perfect* skills for the Worm and would never use it for anything at all. It is utterly inferior to AFs, and AFs are widely (and correctly) regarded as complete crap.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.02.09 00:34:00 -
[28]
Yes, neutproof. With small neut on you you will be spamming scram and you wont be able to activate invul after 30secs. With med neut on you you will be able to activate invul maybe 30% of the time.
Still it doesnt matter - it will get counter webbed and scrammed and will die after 30-40secs. If you think you can evade med guns without ab gl.
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2010.02.09 03:32:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Originally by: Omarvelous ...
Awful fit. Neut proof? Look how much cap invul needs. No web, no dualprop, slow as ****... rly awesome tackler. Pls tell me, how do you plan tackling something with web, scram and med guns? Bah, i wont continue, gl with your ecm drones...
Wow, you really got your panties up in a bunch over my fit.
Drop the invul for a web then. BTW you can easily run an invul when the mwd is off (which it would be if this ship was doing up close tackle).
I'm not saying the worm is perfect - its ability to fit things could use some work, and rockets need some help vs frigates.
TBH I think Merin's idea to fit a cap booster and just stay at 20+km is probably the best use for this frig...
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Tagami Wasp
Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.02.09 04:25:00 -
[30]
[Worm, worm] Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II
1MN MicroWarpdrive I 1MN Afterburner II Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II
Rocket Launcher II, Phalanx Rage Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Phalanx Rage Rocket Small Diminishing Power System Drain I
Small Core Defence Field Extender I Small Core Defence Field Extender I Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Warrior II x5 Hornet EC-300 x5
That's how I'd fit it. Problem is, roflkets are absolute rubbish at the moment, so there is no reason to fly rocket boats. If they ever fixed rockets I might even put a velocity rig for them, there to kite stuff that needs to be kited. It would sure be able to take Ranises though, just stay at NOS range and bleed them to death, after you kill their 2 warriors, while they can't even lock you. ------------ Railgun performance required fix: - +15% railgun damage modifier - +10% PG for Caldari railgun ships |
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