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Messori de'Animis
Henschel AG
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Posted - 2010.02.08 00:47:00 -
[1]
I had this idea and for better or worst IÆm presenting it here.
TL;DR û Tech2 Orca whose sole purpose is transporting ore and surviving the harsh realities of deep-space mining.
Why is this kind of ship needed? Industrials and transports work well hauling the labour of 2 boosted Hulks, not much more. The Orca while arguably one of the better Swiss army knives in EVE, cannot give itÆs boni while in warp/docked and its cargo capacity is somewhat lacking when it comes to stripping decent sized belts.
The Orca works beautifully in its mining OP leadership role, which, quite crudely put, is a boni spewing mega GSC. So, as to not infringe upon the OrcaÆs many roles I purpose an ore hauling ship. Because of its focused role it would fit well with other Tech 2 ships.
ItÆs mission, to better withstand the travails of deep-space, support a mining operation being boosted by a Rorqual, and to better support larger and/or remote mining operations in High Sec.
As such it would have the role boni of tractor range and speed, (120km range and 1500ms speed)
Industrial Command Ship Skill Bonus: 10% to Ore Hold Size and shield boost amount per level
Advanced Industrial Command Ship Skill Bonus: 10% to Shield Transport Effectiveness and Range per level
It would have 4-5 High Slots for tractor beams and shield transporters, 6 mid slots for adequate tank, and 3 lows for further tanking/agility modules.
A ship that is like a jump freighter and Black Ops in that it can jump out of High Sec and yet return there via stargates. A 250,000m3 ore bay, 10,000m3 fuel bay, no corporate hanger, no ship maintenance bay, a 1000-2000m3 cargohold. This is not to replace the Orca, JFs, Freighters or the Rorqual. It should have marauderesque resists. It shouldnÆt be able to fit more than a 250k ehp tank, but should rely on active tanking and therefore not be gank proof. It should cost more than 1 billion ideally. Skill intensive like the Rorqual and a JF maybe ICSS at level IV as a prerequisite too?
The main goal, once again, is to provide medium to large mining corporations and mining Ops with a purpose built ore hauler. Whether it be to move the ore from the Op to a waiting Rorqual or from an Orca in Empire in some remote system, all of this without the need for an army of industrials or Orcas, which although more effective than industrials, are not purpose built for this.
Is this imbalanced somehow? The only thing I can think of this being abused for would be missioning, but you would have to trade off the OrcaÆs maintenance bay, corp. hanger and large cargo-hold, for the benefit of having a logistic ship with a small cargo bay and tractors to loot along the way. (Which sounds a lot like have an RR Tengu with a tractor sub.)
Could this ship within the EVE Universe? Obviously, I think it could, but I was wondering what the playerbase/Devs thought of this idea.
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mchief117
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Posted - 2010.02.08 16:35:00 -
[2]
OK so you want a ship that is in essence a rorqual with out the grinding ability and marauder like tanking ability's.
I'm not sure which way this would go.
on the plus side i do like any idea for new ships in the game.
on the down side we already have 2 ships that can fulfill this purpose , one costs 300-450M(orca) or 1.2-1.7B(rorqual) ( prices vary Dependant where you buy) and with all the space on the orca i doubt that any one would pay 2-3 times more for a few more hulk loads of ore.
to leave on a bright note if you want it to be the mother of all ore haulers give it a ore bay thats 450K+ nearly twice the size of a rorquals but lacking the ability to grind.
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Messori de'Animis
Henschel AG
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Posted - 2010.02.08 19:01:00 -
[3]
That's what I want, but I don't know if 450k+ ore hold would be broken. The 250k hold I purposed also has the 10% per level, which at level 5 would be 375k, now maybe make the bonus 20% per level for 500k total ore hold size? I wouldn't have a problem with that.
I can say from the stand point of running a few mining ops that it would be nice if the people hauling in industrials would be able to mine also. Hey, if you are going to be bored out of your mind might as well be making me money all the while.
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Allan Sheperd
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Posted - 2010.02.08 20:04:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Allan Sheperd on 08/02/2010 20:06:41 Ship that can only hold ore, and holds lots of it. Sounds good.
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Yamato1940
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Posted - 2010.02.08 20:45:00 -
[5]
how about a mining smart bomb? u get in between several rocks and activate the MSB, the shockwave breaks the rocks apart and sucks all the pieces into the cargo bay, no high turret mount necessary.
imagine slapping this baby on a freighter? wow
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William Caldon
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.02.08 21:10:00 -
[6]
A rorqual that can never die. Yeah, great idea....
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Amdius
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Posted - 2010.02.08 22:40:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Amdius on 08/02/2010 22:41:57 Not really sure where the idea of this ship being able to mine came from Maybe you were confused by all the words about it being only able to haul ore.
And where did the idea of it being indestructible. Can I please have one of these indestructible marauders that you apparently have? Oh wait, that's only if you have cap! Too bad we don't have a module to say, suck the capacitor out of another ship.
CAOD is go troll there, thanks.
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Abulurd Boniface
Gallente Construction Cabal
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Posted - 2010.02.08 23:07:00 -
[8]
I like the idea of a dedicated ore hauler. It should not do much more than that and be able to take a little dent here and there.
I support all good ideas that bring more new ships into the game.
AB
For good to survive it suffices for evil to acquire a deadly, incapacitating disease. |
Merle Hausen
Caldari Phoenix Propulsion Labs Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2010.02.09 04:14:00 -
[9]
500,000 m^3 at Level 5 Industrial Command I think is more than fair. I defiantly like how you nerf the caqrgobay too so that we won't see this thing misused for anything other than to haul ore. If you think about it, you are converting that 400,000 m^3 SMA, and 40,000 m^3 CHA into pure orehold. This is something that would be very useful in game, due to the lack of remote refining currently in EvE.
If CCP fails to deliver a means to refine ore at ~100% (with skills of course) at a location other than a outpost or station, I feel that this could be a decent alternative. I still think remote refining needs to be added to the game. CCP has been holding back in this area for 5 years now. First they promised us the module for the Industrial(where is that by the way?), then they botched the modules for POS (these are a crime), and then they tantalized us with the Rorqual and still did not give us miners what we need, but I digress.
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Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
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Posted - 2010.02.09 10:54:00 -
[10]
I would fully support (and use) a dedicated ore hauler.
A fair tradeoff of more ore capacity - without the benefits of booster modules, corp hangar, grinding and ship hold.
------------------------ Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer "I've got a couple of Strippers on my ship... and they just love to dance!" ------------------------ |
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Stygian Knight
Blood Covenant Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.02.09 12:52:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Jint Hikaru I would fully support (and use) a dedicated ore hauler.
A fair tradeoff of more ore capacity - without the benefits of booster modules, corp hangar, grinding and ship hold.
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Messori de'Animis
Henschel AG
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Posted - 2010.02.09 16:14:00 -
[12]
Thanks guys for the input
I just want say that the boni are not make or break, basically I wanted to something in the game for PVE mining. So that's why I went with shield boosting/duration boni. As we all know until CCP changes tanking, active pwns PVE, passive pwns PVP.
I didn't want to make this something that is gank proof (no matter how much I might want that )
I also think 500,000m3 is a good amount, too much more and it could infringe upon the freighter's role. The only thing that concerns me about my own idea is the fact that it might be infringing upon the JF.
If you can compress 500,000m3 in 0.0 then jump it to the edge of Empire you are doing something better than the JF. Now this is all ore, and a Freighter can do the same with a JB + titan bridge. And all of this for 1 billion isk, 1/5th of a JF cost. Any input of this would be helpful, thanks.
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Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
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Posted - 2010.02.10 13:04:00 -
[13]
I can't see how it would infringe on Freighters or JFs if the hold is Ore only. Also if it was allowed to take from cans.
It seems that you have given this ship a specific role in the game that does not infrigne in any way over the other ships.
A very good addition to the ORE fleet.
(I would gladly pass up on boosts etc from Orca while in a WH. I sometimes go into empty ones just for an evening to mine. One of these cloaked at the edge of a Grav site with my miner chewing rocks in a barge would please me)
------------------------ Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer "I've got a couple of Strippers on my ship... and they just love to dance!" ------------------------ |
Messori de'Animis
Henschel AG
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Posted - 2010.02.10 19:59:00 -
[14]
Good!
Looks like other than some trolling I've gotten mostly good feedback from this idea. I think I'm going to try and pitch the idea in the Assembly Hall and see what they have to say about it
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Dantes Revenge
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.02.11 11:29:00 -
[15]
That's where balance between hauling and mining comes in. Small haulers like an Indy or a Transport ship means lots of trips, keeping a hauler too busy to mine. A large hauler like an Orca or Rorqual can use drones to keep rats at bay, leaving mining ships able to deploy mining drones instead of defence drones.
A hauler that can mine is not a good idea because it would be used by macros much more. A cargo rigged Impel with a full rack of T2 cargo expanders can store well over 37K with skills, that's 1.5 times the capacity of a jetcan. It can still be fitted with a respectable shield tank against NPC belt rats even with that. Throw a tractor on it and it makes the ideal large hauler. If you need any more than that, you should really be looking at an Orca or Rorqual.
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Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
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Posted - 2010.02.11 14:07:00 -
[16]
Quote: A hauler that can mine is not a good idea because it would be used by macros much more
Um, Can you point out where this idea says it can mine?
As for macro usage... it was suggested that this proposed ORE Hauler is skill intensive so it's probably not going to be used by macroers.
------------------------ Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer "I've got a couple of Strippers on my ship... and they just love to dance!" ------------------------ |
Messori de'Animis
Henschel AG
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Posted - 2010.02.11 16:08:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Messori de''Animis on 11/02/2010 16:15:31 Also, if used by Marcos it would cost a lot, and its survival is based completely on active tanking, and with less than 250k ehp, just get like 10-15 gank fit torp Ravens and nuke it. Being T2 it's insurance payout would be crap. And even though I hate making life easier on griefers, I hate the idea of Marcos even more.
But yes, this will not be for mining, but for miners! It would also, hopefully, be used with an Orca; it Boosting and playing a mega GSC while this big puppy does all the hauling.
I was also toying with the idea of it having a drone damage bonus like the Rorqual, but then it, and its tanking ability could be abused for running level 4's. Marauder tank + 1k drone dps, no thank you!
But with the active tank, it wouldn't need drones or it might not even need the Role Boni I gave it (that's what she said ). Idk, we'll see if it's even needed, like I said I proposed it in the Assemble Hall.
Edit: more content
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Liol Wongsta
The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.02.11 17:40:00 -
[18]
As long as its transporting uncompressed ore only and can NOT haul refined mins, then im all for this.
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2010.02.11 17:53:00 -
[19]
Just a rough idea for this:
Adding special O.R.E Silo Cargo Extension modules, one for normal cargo, one for ores and one for gas. Each modules adds a specialty hold of [amount] m3 that can only be fitted on [ships]. Fill in the blanks as balancing demands. --------
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Messori de'Animis
Henschel AG
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Posted - 2010.02.11 18:32:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Liol Wongsta As long as its transporting uncompressed ore only and can NOT haul refined mins, then im all for this.
Why not compressed ore as well? And as for minerals, no. This ship would have a 250,000m3 ore hold, like the Orca has a 50,000m3 ore hold and the Rorqual has a 125,000m3 ore hold. You can't put anything into unless it is ore, compressed or not.
Now if you are referring to mineral compression, then not to worry you only have a 1000-2000m3 cargo hold for extra mining crystals, or whatever, that could be used to transport compressed minerals. But, and that's a big but, even 2000m3 of compressed minerals is a very small amount by any standards.
As for the different holds, that could be with an ORE T3 ship, more of an exploratory ship? But this being T2 (tech 2 not tier 2) I don't know if you can do that? That is food for thought though
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Liol Wongsta
The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.02.12 15:14:00 -
[21]
My objection to it haulig pallets of compressed ore stems from the fact that your now looking at something that has a potential higher Ore capacity than a freighter (or certainly close to it), but also has the ability to jump drive.
I feel this is too much.
Just my humble opinion however.
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Messori de'Animis
Henschel AG
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Posted - 2010.02.12 20:01:00 -
[22]
Very true, but to my knowledge a Freighter can haul compressed ore, marry that with a JB network and titan bridge, and now you are at a Pos in a system with only a gate between you and Empire.
And that was one of my concerns, which is why I initially suggested a 250,000m3 capacity and 10% per level increase. That would make it just barely larger volume then a Rhea, but it could only hold ore.
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
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Posted - 2010.02.12 22:54:00 -
[23]
Depending on the mass of this ship, it would have the potential to be a huge boon to WH-dwellers, who sometimes struggle to ship enough lowend ore into their systems. This would allow them to set up a rorqual at a staging POS, compress loads of ore there, then jump it through the WH to be refined at a WH POS. --- 34.4:1 mineral compression |
Mike C
Caldari Ipuvaepe Industries
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Posted - 2010.02.13 00:09:00 -
[24]
Use a cargo fit rorqual to launch a General Freight Container into a belt and mine into that. Then use a JF/freighter to haul.
↑↑ bar is just /quote ↑↑ [03:17:29] Trade Skills > Jesus believes in god [03:17:38] Mike C > believed* [03:17:48] Trade Skills > touche |
Messori de'Animis
Henschel AG
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Posted - 2010.02.13 01:05:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Mike C Use a cargo fit rorqual to launch a General Freight Container into a belt and mine into that. Then use a JF/freighter to haul.
Wait? Why? Like I said in my OP the Orca fulfills the role of a boni spewing mega GSC. Even then a Rorq can't enter Empire, and part of the mission of this ore hauler is to help with remote mining OPs (in Empire) where you have multiple Hulks chewing away on roids.
And as for WH's and mass, I would assume this would have as much mass as an Orca, but if its jump capable it might have more. I don't know honestly the repercussions that could have on life in Unknown space. It would also make moving ore out even easier too. And with highends already in a free fall that might not be the best thing. So from a balancing stand point I personally would say a mass equal to the Rhea.
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Merle Hausen
Caldari Phoenix Propulsion Labs Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2010.02.13 10:12:00 -
[26]
I still think 500k is more than OK. This still does not infringe upon freighters or JF's. Those are still king, and not to mention they can carry more than ore. This ship would be extremely useful to mining gangs as you can significantly reduce the number of people needed to haul. Ever seen how many haulers you need for 15 Hulks? It's not pretty or fun.
As far as being able to carry compressed ore, why not? I cannot think of a good reason why it shouldn't. Not to mention, CCP would have the change the code as compress ore is treated no differently than regular ore, so yeah.
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Messori de'Animis
Henschel AG
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Posted - 2010.02.13 15:15:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Merle Hausen Ever seen how many haulers you need for 15 Hulks? It's not pretty or fun.
This is the exact role/mission this ship would fulfill when I envisioned it!
Also on the Mass issue; I looked in game and the Rhea/Charon have 960,000,000 mass, while the Orca has 250,000,000. Whether this ship ends up with a 10%, 20% or 15% bonus to its ore hold I would say a fair mass would be around 450,000,000.
Oh and if you like this idea head over to the Assembly Hall and its there too, second page I think, and voice your opinion!
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Merle Hausen
Caldari Phoenix Propulsion Labs Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2010.02.13 20:40:00 -
[28]
I can't agree with the 450mil kg mass.
First off, why should it be any more massive than a regular Orca? It certainly isn't any bigger. Also, you are gutting everything in a regular Orca so that all it does is carry ore. This surely if anything wouldn't make the ship have more mass, but more likely would reduce its mass.
The problem with 450mil mass is that you just instantly made it so that it can only access Class 5/6 WH's. 300mil to 250mil is where it should be. There is no good reason to keep this out of Class 2/3/4 whiskeys.
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Messori de'Animis
Henschel AG
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Posted - 2010.02.14 01:58:00 -
[29]
The only concern I have with giving it 250k mass would be the flow of high end minerals coming out of W-space.
If you max your orca you could just shy of 190k m3 ore moved, this ship would be able to move almost twice that at 375k m3, and if it ends up with 500k m3, damn that's a lot of compressed high ends ending up in K-space.
I suggested the masses based on its hauling volume, but I wouldn't have a problem with it going into class 3s as they tend to end up in low sec. That should give significant risk v. reward, but I don't know what the max mass is for a class 3 w-hole.
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PuncherDavis
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Posted - 2010.02.18 00:31:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Messori de'Animis
Originally by: Liol Wongsta As long as its transporting uncompressed ore only and can NOT haul refined mins, then im all for this.
Why not compressed ore as well? And as for minerals, no. This ship would have a 250,000m3 ore hold, like the Orca has a 50,000m3 ore hold and the Rorqual has a 250,000 M3 ore hold. You can't put anything into unless it is ore, compressed or not.
Now if you are referring to mineral compression, then not to worry you only have a 1000-2000m3 cargo hold for extra mining crystals, or whatever, that could be used to transport compressed minerals. But, and that's a big but, even 2000m3 of compressed minerals is a very small amount by any standards.
As for the different holds, that could be with an ORE T3 ship, more of an exploratory ship? But this being T2 (tech 2 not tier 2) I don't know if you can do that? That is food for thought though
Small correction for u :)
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