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IQ 001
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Posted - 2010.02.01 15:48:00 -
[1]
is there anyway to increase the ME of a t2 bpc? trying to stick it on a queue but it wont let me ;;(
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.02.01 15:49:00 -
[2]
The only way to affect the ME/PE level of an invented blueprint is to use a decryptor when inventing it. No decryptor -> always -4/-4.
After you have it, nothing can change its levels.
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Athar Mu
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2010.02.01 15:50:00 -
[3]
Originally by: IQ 001
is there anyway to increase the ME of a t2 bpc? trying to stick it on a queue but it wont let me ;;(
No, just like you cant put T1 BPC's into ME research. Certain decryptors can be used in the invention process to increase T2 BPC ME. Also T2 BPO's can be researched before they are copied.
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IQ 001
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Posted - 2010.02.01 15:50:00 -
[4]
Edited by: IQ 001 on 01/02/2010 15:50:58
****znel
thanks
wait, s.h.i.z.z is a swear word??????
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Zedia Zhane
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Posted - 2010.02.14 20:52:00 -
[5]
Ok, my enthusiasm for this game just took a huge hit.
Eliminating the T2 BPO lottery was supposed to make things more fair. Now anyone can do T2, right?
Well, not so fast. For 'anyone' to do T2, they have to deal with horrific ME levels. And there are still T2 BPOs out there.
So the same people that cornered the market before with T2 BPOs can now outproduce everyone else by a vast margin because their BPOs are researched to productive ME levels. Which means they can force everyone else to sell at a loss, and effectively put them out of business.
And in one way it is even worse than before: 'anyone' can no longer get a T2 BPO through the lottery. The powerful groups that have them now are even more secure in their market strangleholds. At least with a lottery you had a chance to get a T2 BPO.
If CCP really wants a competitive T2 market, they need to address the differences between BPOs and BPCs. I suggest that, at the next release, all T2 BPOs be converted into BPCs. Give those BPCs a lot of runs (like 10 for a ship to 1000 for ammo) but do something to eventually make the market equitable for people who aren't lucky enough to have a legacy BPO.
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Vilgan i'Lakin
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Posted - 2010.02.14 21:15:00 -
[6]
Calling for T2 BPO removal is a pretty common thing. I'd love to see them removed, but also think it a bit unlikely. I think you are missing the main difference in that it is no longer possible to get a monopoly. Before invention, if someone got all the cap recharger II or Hulk BPOs they could charge whatever they wanted and if someone wanted that item/ship/whatever, they had to pay that price. Now... if BPO holders try to inflate the price too much then inventors can just undercut them.
I'd suspect 90% of t2 production is still done via BPO, and invention is just a check to keep prices reasonable. Would be nice to see the BPOs removed as invention frequently sucks. However, CCP has never given any indications (that I'm aware of) that its a possibility. TBH, it does keep t2 cheaper for the average player as many things are sold for less than cost of invention + production.
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Ruziel
Minmatar
Twilight Military Industrial Complex
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Posted - 2010.02.14 21:19:00 -
[7]
Your proposal has been introduced and debated quite a few times. If invention is nearly as bad as you made it out, why are people still doing it?
True there are certain items where the BPO holders control the market, but are a great many where the inventors make it competitive.
A T2 BPO can only produce so many items at a time. How do inventors compete? Volume. If you can produce at least twice as many items at half the profit, guess what? You're making the same profit as the BPO holder.
There are also a bunch of T2 items that have no T2 BPO, are they automatically profitable? Not necessarily.
The onus is on you to do your market research and make the call on what to invent/produce. If you can't produce a particular T2 item at a profit, guess what you shouldn't do? The same holds true for any item.
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Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2010.02.14 22:34:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Zedia Zhane
Well, not so fast. For 'anyone' to do T2, they have to deal with horrific ME levels. And there are still T2 BPOs out there.
Suprisingly, items with T2 BPOs make more profit than items with no T2 BPOs. Do the math and see for yourself 
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Athar Mu
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2010.02.15 05:08:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Vilgan i'Lakin
I'd suspect 90% of t2 production is still done via BPO
Really? What evidence do you have of this? Do you know exactly how many BPO's of each T2 item there is? Do you know how many units are produced of any particular item in a day? And then how many are sold in that day? And how many sold on the market are resales?
For example; I do invention, in Jita alone in a single day on average I am the producer of around 1/4 to 1/3 of the total sales a particular item. There is are BPO's for this item. Now unless there are hundreds of BPO's of this item there is no way 90% of the production for this one item is done by BPO's.
I would agree that for certain modules/ships there is certain items that people don't invent because they are not profitable because the price is controlled by BPO owners. However, I would think that these items are ones where per day across Eve not many are sold. Any of the high volume items the prices are controlled by Inventors, for the single reason that there isn't enough BPO's to make the required amount of units required. Also items without BPO's frequently don't make any isk when inventing. Prime example Marauders.
What invention has done is made T2 items cheaper and affordable, consequently this has also meant that more is needed for the market and I am pretty sure that because of this demand there is now more items (in general) being produced and sold (minus resale) than all the T2 BPO's put together can output for that item.
They wont remove T2 BPO's for the simple reason is that they were gained through a none isk method of payment and then they have been resold. They would have to compensate all the T2 BPO owners for what they paid for them (giving them max run bpc's wouldn't really cover it) and then compensate all the ones who got them from the T2 lottery in the same fashion. The only way that would make it 'fair' would be to change the BPO's into -4ME and -4PE and fix them so they couldn't be researched. That way they still have BPO's but the quality is worse. It would mean they would output at the same or worse than invention they just wouldn't have to invent. But even that won't be done because its a stupid idea.
Stop complaining about T2 BPO's. They are here to stay, if you want to make your fortune, save up and buy one yourself and become part of the club. I personally am gonna stick to invention because I make more per week from inventing one item than I would if I had its BPO and I don't have to wait a couple of years to get my isk back on it. And the more people who think invention isn't worth it means less competition for me so more isk.
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.02.15 05:36:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Akita T on 15/02/2010 05:41:42
Originally by: Vilgan i'Lakin
I'd suspect 90% of t2 production is still done via BPO, and invention is just a check to keep prices reasonable. Would be nice to see the BPOs removed as invention frequently sucks. However, CCP has never given any indications (that I'm aware of) that its a possibility. TBH, it does keep t2 cheaper for the average player as many things are sold for less than cost of invention + production.
Right, because the QEN where a big part of its focus was exactly just how many T2 items are manufactured from BPOs vs BPCs never happened, wasn't made by CCP, and was never published ?
Linkage (http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=686)
Here's a few tidbits from it...
Quote:
During Q2 2009, the average number of Tech II production jobs completed daily was 11,788.
Out of this average, 374 jobs were installed with a Tech II BPO, while the remaining 11,414 jobs were installed with BPCs.
The distribution of Tech II production jobs installed had 3% installed with a BPO and 97% installed with a BPC, as can be seen in the figure below.
That's on page 35.
97% OF JOBS INSTALLED WITH BPCs.
Granted, that doesn't say anything about any specific types of items, batch size (very relevant bit) nor about ISK volumes involved, but that's why the next pages start to dissect everything else in great enough detail, when they move on to number of manufactured items split by BPO/BPC for particular types.
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Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor
The Ascendent Dominion
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Posted - 2010.02.15 07:12:00 -
[11]
T2 invention is fine as long as you don't do ships. You won't get the profits for the time invested. That's not because of BPO's though, it's due to low volumes of T2 ships compared to other items.
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Dana Mownhobbit
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Posted - 2010.02.15 12:37:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Dana Mownhobbit on 15/02/2010 12:38:31
Originally by: Akita T
[...]
Granted, that doesn't say anything about any specific types of items, batch size (very relevant bit) nor about ISK volumes involved, but that's why the next pages start to dissect everything else in great enough detail, when they move on to number of manufactured items split by BPO/BPC for particular types.
Indeed this doesen't say anything. The very next paragraph more like inverts the impression of 3% : 97%
Quote:
Excluding drones and ammo, approximately 9.8 million Tech II items were produced in Q2. Out
of these, 6.5 million items were produced from BPCs, with the remaining items being produced
from BPOs. Proportionally, a third of all Tech II production is executed with BPOs, and the
remaining is done with BPCs.
Please help me, if a misinterpret something, but my impression is more like this:
If 3% of all installed T2 manufacturing jobs (with BPO) yield in 35% of all produced T2 items (exluding drones and ammo), then this doesen't sound to me like the BPO-based production is insignificant.
Ok, it's not 90 % of t2 prod coming from BPCs - it's only 65%
Another quote:
Quote:
A total of 14,008 unique characters performed a Tech II production job during Q2. If we exclude
jobs for ammo and drones, a total of 11,774 characters manufactured Tech II items during this
quarter. Roughly 10% of the characters which installed a Tech II manufacturing job did so with
a BPO, meaning that about 33% of available Tech II items (excluding ammo and drones) on the
market are being produced by about 10% of all Tech II producers.
Question to the production experts: how much more materials do i need for a ME-4 production run in comparison to -let's say a - ME20? And how much faster do I produce with PE 20 compared to -4?
That would give us a number of how much more items a well researched T2 BPO would yield for the same materials and production time of a plain T2 BPC aquired by invention. Faster AND cheaper. Not a small market advantage eh? ;-)
As I reflect the implications of these numbers, my thoughts are as follows:
A small percentage of producers holds a large market share over T2 items due to the significant production time and cost advantage not only because of ME/PE, but also the effort a BPC inventor has to accomplish for every new copy, not to speak of the costs (e.g. decryptors). As a result the (bigger) profits of 35% of the T2 market go to 10% of the producers.
It's plausible to assume, that the majority of these BPOs belong to long established corps and alliances, since they were the first (of course) to obtain the BPOs via lottery and whenever a BPO switched owner via auctions, they were the most wealthy. And with the possibility of remote research etc. the chance that a T2 BPO switches hands without large sums, e.g. by violence, is not zero, but not that much larger as well. Corp theft is certainly much more... eh... yielding *G*
So if I again put on my hat of the "eager but poor noob R&D entrepeneur" i must come to the frustrating conclusion, that no matter how hard I try, i will never come to a level in T2 research and production where I can compete with the established, BPO-owning producers. The only hope is, that the market is large enough, that I can sell my products with a much smaller but at least larger than zero profit. But in regard of the effort one has to make, including R&D projects, BP copying, purchase of ingredients, and all the skills you have to learn (R&D skills are not the cheapest) the questions remains, if it is worth the effort and if it might be better from the isk-per-time perspective, to just set up research projects and sell the data cores?
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Drake Vulpayne
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Posted - 2010.02.15 13:02:00 -
[13]
If it was me, I would change invention to take ME and PE of the involved T1 copy into account, maybe with vast maluses and maybe with just another lame high rank skill
Quote:
High Tech Material Optimization - Rank 10
"For each level of this skill 10% of the ME level of the Tech 1 BPC used in an invention job are transferred to the T2 BPC upon invention success. The ME modification of decryptors is taken into account additionally"
price: 40-100 mio isk
High Tech Production Optimization - same for PE
Of course this will devaluate T2 BPOs, but it will take time. play with the numbers, make it 5% or 2% - whatever. But in the end it will increase competition and make T2 items cheaper, accessible to more capsuleers, more dispensable (Which also might draw out more people into 0.0Sec). Plus BPOs still have some advantages over BPCs.
Anyone, who is against my idea, is against the free market idea and an enemy of the common man, propagating the dominance of some wealthy few over the impoverished masses! 
- Which makes it much less probable to happen...
Note to self: arrange appointment with Tibus Heth.
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.02.15 13:38:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Dana Mownhobbit
Question to the production experts: how much more materials do i need for a ME-4 production run in comparison to -let's say a - ME20? And how much faster do I produce with PE 20 compared to -4?
-4 ME is 50% waste over perfect build BUT only applies to SOME of the materials.
Out of the total material cost, due to various peculiarities with rounding off of waste, that can be anywhere between 50% and 0% (yes, a -4 ME BPC might actually use just as much materials as a 999 ME BPC, for a very small selection of items).
As for production time, -4 PE vs high positive PE can mean more than double needed time.
Quote:
That would give us a number of how much more items a well researched T2 BPO would yield for the same materials and production time of a plain T2 BPC aquired by invention. Faster AND cheaper. Not a small market advantage eh? ;-)
In case there IS a market for that item in the first place. For most T2 items (speaking purely from a "how many types exist" standpoint), sadly, this is not the case.
Quote:
As I reflect the implications of these numbers, my thoughts are as follows:
A small percentage of producers holds a large market share over T2 items due to the significant production time and cost advantage not only because of ME/PE, but also the effort a BPC inventor has to accomplish for every new copy, not to speak of the costs (e.g. decryptors). As a result the (bigger) profits of 35% of the T2 market go to 10% of the producers.
The most obvious counter-examples would be something in very high demand, like, say, Hulks or T2 cap rechargers, or covops cloaks. You have on average only 1 out of 10 such items manufactured from a BPO, the other 9 come from BPCs.
The more in demand an item is (and the higher the potential profit margin on it gets), the larger the portion of that specific item produced from BPCs will be.
Basically, that's the best negative feedback you can possibly get.
Quote:
So if I again put on my hat of the "eager but poor noob R&D entrepeneur" i must come to the frustrating conclusion, that no matter how hard I try, i will never come to a level in T2 research and production where I can compete with the established, BPO-owning producers.
And you don't have to, and you won't.
For items where invention is not profitable at all due to very low demand on the item, it would be foolish to even try, and BPO owners take all the market share there - but they're not making much money themselves, since, well, demand is low.
For item where demand is high, high enough to go over what BPOs can provide, in the absence of invention, prices would go sky-high, as can be seen from pre-invention age Hulk/CR-II/CovopsCloak prices, the only reasons prices don't go that high anymore being that all the "slack" is picked up by inventors, so many inventors UNTIL the profit margin becomes too low for more inventors to bother.
You're never, ever competing directly with BPO holders - whenever you're competing at all, you're always competing with other inventors.
Quote:
The only hope is, that the market is large enough, that I can sell my products with a much smaller but at least larger than zero profit. But in regard of the effort one has to make, including R&D projects, BP copying, purchase of ingredients, and all the skills you have to learn (R&D skills are not the cheapest) the questions remains, if it is worth the effort and if it might be better from the isk-per-time perspective, to just set up research projects and sell the data cores?
You're falling into the "minerals I mine myself are worthless" thinking style trap.
Revenue from datacore harvesting should never, ever be regarded as a mitigating factor in invention profitability.
Each and every step of the invention process should be able to stand on its own, speaking from a profitability standpoint... if it doesn't, DO NOT DO THAT STEP YOURSELF, buy that step's product instead.
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.02.15 13:44:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Drake Vulpayne
If it was me, I would change invention to take ME and PE of the involved T1 copy into account
That's been "on the drawing board" for almost as long as invention was around, a couple of months after.
For reasons that were never divulged, it either got postponed indefinitely or downright canceled.
Basically, it's not that it would be impossible to do, it's just that CCP doesn't want (it enough) to do it.
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Dana Mownhobbit
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Posted - 2010.02.15 14:09:00 -
[16]
Akita T, thank you very much for these insightful comments, which raised my hopes on the whole T2 matter.
So basically I would have to research, what T2 items are in the highest demand/supply -ratio, right? Is there a clever way to do so besides manual study of market details or eve-central, where both only give somewhat polluted data, because the statistics contain scam orders like buy 200k of item x for 2 isk and the like.
Regarding the "zero value minerals", i didn't intend to mine myself since my mining skills suck (ok, mining 5, but nothing from there), and the whole activity sucks even more to the point of being a game design flaw (i had my share of it). But that's just me.
I rather thought of buying mins from the market or get some of these from reprocessing junk loot. There are some items sold vastly under price. I do not intend to start a huge industrial enterprise (read: building stuff larger then frigates) since i dont't have the money, manpower or playing time anyway.
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.02.15 15:01:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Akita T on 15/02/2010 15:03:25
Originally by: Dana Mownhobbit
So basically I would have to research, what T2 items are in the highest demand/supply -ratio, right?
Generally, yes, that's a fair enough assumption if you want minimal effort and decent-ish results.
HACs, Recons, Exhumers, armor and shield hardeners, reppers and boosters, weapons, damage mods, cap recharger, cloaks, cargo expander, shield extenders, some of the T2 ammo types, those are usually a good place to start looking. You know, stuff that has a high "churn rate" due to high use in PvP fits and the subsequent nearly unavoidable eventual losses.
You might miss really lucrative deals if you only do it like that though.
Quote:
Is there a clever way to do so besides manual study of market details or eve-central, where both only give somewhat polluted data, because the statistics contain scam orders like buy 200k of item x for 2 isk and the like.
Short of manually looking at all relevant prices and doing the math, not really.
But then again, you can just fire up something like the invention calculator, quick import evecentral data, then manually check (in-game) all relevant prices for the items that look attractive enough with the auto-import.
Quote:
Regarding the "zero value minerals", i didn't intend to mine myself since my mining skills suck (ok, mining 5, but nothing from there), and the whole activity sucks even more to the point of being a game design flaw (i had my share of it). But that's just me.
I only meant that "thinking style", since you mentioned datacore harvesting.
As an inventor, if you go at it "full power", you will NEVER EVER be capable of getting enough datacores to keep your operation going - for every full-time inventor, you'd need anywhere between 5 to 10 datacore collection characters.
As such, datacore collection is not a necessary prerequsite of invention, and you should always consider any datacores you get yourself as being just as valuable as datacores you buy from the market.
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Dana Mownhobbit
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Posted - 2010.02.15 16:01:00 -
[18]
Akita, thanks again for the reply.
I wasn't aware of that awkward ratio of invention datacore needs to datacore aquisition. I am training toward Res. Proj. Management (plus a friend of mine) and thought to be somewhat self-sufficient with about 4 level 4 R&D agents within 3-4 weeks. Can you tell me, how much datacores are needed for let's say basic ship equipment items and frigate invention jobs? Is there a large deviation in datacore requirements amongst the items? for ships of course, but items as well?
We want to take it on slow at any rate and i don't think that we will get past cruiser or battlecruiser ever and and even that only on a long perspective. For starters more like ammo and equipment we use ourselves as well...
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clixoras
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Posted - 2010.02.15 16:23:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Dana Mownhobbit
Akita, thanks again for the reply.
I wasn't aware of that awkward ratio of invention datacore needs to datacore aquisition. I am training toward Res. Proj. Management (plus a friend of mine) and thought to be somewhat self-sufficient with about 4 level 4 R&D agents within 3-4 weeks. Can you tell me, how much datacores are needed for let's say basic ship equipment items and frigate invention jobs? Is there a large deviation in datacore requirements amongst the items? for ships of course, but items as well?
We want to take it on slow at any rate and i don't think that we will get past cruiser or battlecruiser ever and and even that only on a long perspective. For starters more like ammo and equipment we use ourselves as well...
Hi Dana, please do not make the 'cause i harvest cores, they're free', in fact, if you harvest them yourself or not doesnt matter, you still have to calculate their value. Granted, sitting on a pile of RP is nice and if you use them even better (saves you buying from the market) but the fact remains that they have value.
About the T2 BPO's, i'm no big expert or anthing, just starting up my production line. But, athough T2 BPO's have a clear advantage, we shouldnt worry it about it to much:
1. BPO's, like all items, have an attrition rate, meaning, some are lost. Giving time to do it's miracle, eventually they will dissapear AND/OR
2. Fall in the hands of filthy rich collectors/alliances who wont use them to their max
Also, if you want to invest in a T2 BPO you can't allocate those resources for possibly more profitable undertakings.
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.02.15 17:07:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Akita T on 15/02/2010 17:09:42
Originally by: Dana Mownhobbit
I wasn't aware of that awkward ratio of invention datacore needs to datacore aquisition. I am training toward Res. Proj. Management (plus a friend of mine) and thought to be somewhat self-sufficient with about 4 level 4 R&D agents within 3-4 weeks. Can you tell me, how much datacores are needed for let's say basic ship equipment items and frigate invention jobs? Is there a large deviation in datacore requirements amongst the items? for ships of course, but items as well?
You should just showinfo a bunch of blueprints, then you can see that for yourself.
To give you a few examples...
A Magnetic Field Stabilizer (or, for that matter, almost every module) has a base invention time of 2 hours 30 minutes, and requires 2x2 datacores (type depending on item, but Mechanical Engineering is in a lot of the modules and in all ships). POS labs also have an invention time bonus, so that's 1 hour 15 minutes per module invention job.
You can run up to 11 invention jobs at the same time on a max-skilled character, so that's 200+ invention jobs PER DAY, if you keep logging in every hour and a quarter to "cycle" them. Or, in other words, 800+ datacores you could "use up" per day (400+ mecheng, 400+ something else).
Even at max possible skills, using the best possible agents in the entire game, a single character can only harvest a bit over 13 mecheng datacores/day passively.
Most "semi-casual" datacore harvesters don't even go to 8/day because they don't always have maxed skills, they don't go for the best agents, and so on and so forth. Actually, a baseline of 5 datacores/day would be much more realistic for the typical datacore harvester.
On the opposite side of datacore use per run, you have jump freighter invention, taking a bit under 5 days and 19 hours (or half of that in a POS lab = ~2.9 days), using 64 mecheng and 64 racial starship datacores per run. So, times 11 slots max, that's "only" about 240 datacores of each type per day, or 480 total.
True, there's also the issue of T1 BPC creation time (unless, of course, you just buy your BPCs), and that can more or less reduce the overall datacore usage in half (or even just to a third, depending on item and your usual "downtime" between types of jobs, activity level and whatnot), and reduce it even more if you try to do it in NPC labs (not recommended for copy slots, those are always overbooked) but still, you do kind of get the idea... that was where the 5-10 datacore harvesters per inventor was coming from (it was a VERY conservative estimate), as you can see it could just as well take MUCH more than that (even up to 50-100 casual datacore harvesters per hardcore inventor).
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Avalon Champion
Gene Works
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Posted - 2010.02.15 19:03:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Athar Mu
Really? What evidence do you have of this? Do you know exactly how many BPO's of each T2 item there is? Do you know how many units are produced of any particular item in a day? And then how many are sold in that day? And how many sold on the market are resales?
There was a devblog that indicated there were fewer than 15000 T2 BPO's introduced during the lottery.
From what ive read, there were 8 or 16 of each ship class (except Ew frigs, T2 BS, HIC's), I believe Cepters where one hull where there were only 8 of each hull available.
I beleive (IIRC) there were 40 of each type of T2 Ammo, and 20 of each module/drone.
Id be greatful if someone can validate these numbers.
There is also chance that a number of T2 BPO's were destroyed when they were being moved, or are assigned to inactive/banned accounts.
One final factor is that most T2 BPO's take between 3 and 5 years of near constant production to give a return on the investment initail investment, unless they are resold for purchase price.
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.02.16 13:29:00 -
[22]
Don't forget that most of the people with huge amounts of ISK from various not-so-EULA-legal activities preferred to hoard valuable T2 BPOs as "money laundering" tools, and whenever such accounts were finally linked to a RMT operation, all those T2 BPOs went *poof* too.
They naturally wouldn't bother with the junk T2 BPOs, so out of the existing ones, the most valuable have a tendency to be destroyed much more often.
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Mistress Servelan
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Posted - 2010.02.16 14:42:00 -
[23]
Originally by: IQ 001
Edited by: IQ 001 on 01/02/2010 15:50:58
****znel
thanks
wait, s.h.i.z.z is a swear word??????
Apparently. Never underestimate imbeciles.
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Athar Mu
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2010.02.17 00:09:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Avalon Champion
Originally by: Athar Mu
Really? What evidence do you have of this? Do you know exactly how many BPO's of each T2 item there is? Do you know how many units are produced of any particular item in a day? And then how many are sold in that day? And how many sold on the market are resales?
There was a devblog that indicated there were fewer than 15000 T2 BPO's introduced during the lottery.
From what ive read, there were 8 or 16 of each ship class (except Ew frigs, T2 BS, HIC's), I believe Cepters where one hull where there were only 8 of each hull available.
I beleive (IIRC) there were 40 of each type of T2 Ammo, and 20 of each module/drone.
Id be greatful if someone can validate these numbers.
There is also chance that a number of T2 BPO's were destroyed when they were being moved, or are assigned to inactive/banned accounts.
One final factor is that most T2 BPO's take between 3 and 5 years of near constant production to give a return on the investment initail investment, unless they are resold for purchase price.
Thanks for that.
And thanks to Akita for giving the evidence as well.
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Illectroculus Defined
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Posted - 2010.02.17 18:04:00 -
[25]
One comment in the QEN presentation that cuagt my eye was the observation that items with long production times were more amenable to being invented profitably because the small number of T2 bpos couldn't keep up with the demand. I'd like to see CCP go through the production statistics and increase the manufacturing time on items which are heavily sourced from BPO's.
Of course, it would have to be a secret project, otherwise we'd see a rash of BPO sales leading up to such a patch.
Even the t1 blueprints seem to have production times that are 'low' (5 hours to build a kilometer long ship from minerals?)
On top of that, I'd really like to see the ability to research the ME of BPCs, so once you get that -4 ME copy you have the option of optimizing the material requirements by sending it to the lab.
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I SoStoned
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.02.18 08:43:00 -
[26]
A lot of back and forth about T2 BPOs being an uneven competition against Invented BPCs.
Take a look at it... I can produce 1100 units of Conflagration Small from a BPO at a POS, per month. One production line, one BP, 30 days locked up in production.
With the same character's 10 other remaining production slots I can produce 400 crystals every 2 days 16 hours, or over the course of a month that's say... 11 runs on 10 lines for a total of 400*11=4400 pieces.
As I've got 3 characters doing this, that's over 12k Conflag small in a single month, far outstripping the output of my BPO.
The only way that my BPO has any advantage against that sheer capacity for output is in costing about 1/2 as much to manufacture. And by the time I sell the 12k produced by invention against the 1100 produced by the BPO I end up with far more profit from invention against the BPO.
Looking at T2 ships, which have far fewer BPOs available, the production of inventors outstrips the BPO holders by a margin that is just downright staggering. And it's inventors who determine market costs, not BPO holders.
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Ben Harrigan
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Posted - 2010.02.18 11:51:00 -
[27]
In my experience T2 production and invention is actually one of the most newbie friendly markets.
As Akita mentioned whenever the annoyance factor is high, the profit margin is high as well. This means it is possible to start with a small amount of cash, and modest skill investment.
This is perfect for new players because they have plenty of time, but are lacking skills and money.
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IonHammer
Minmatar
SPORADIC MOVEMENT
Cult of War
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Posted - 2010.02.19 03:49:00 -
[28]
Originally by: I SoStoned
A lot of back and forth about T2 BPOs being an uneven competition against Invented BPCs.
Take a look at it... I can produce 1100 units of Conflagration Small from a BPO at a POS, per month. One production line, one BP, 30 days locked up in production.
With the same character's 10 other remaining production slots I can produce 400 crystals every 2 days 16 hours, or over the course of a month that's say... 11 runs on 10 lines for a total of 400*11=4400 pieces.
As I've got 3 characters doing this, that's over 12k Conflag small in a single month, far outstripping the output of my BPO.
The only way that my BPO has any advantage against that sheer capacity for output is in costing about 1/2 as much to manufacture. And by the time I sell the 12k produced by invention against the 1100 produced by the BPO I end up with far more profit from invention against the BPO.
Looking at T2 ships, which have far fewer BPOs available, the production of inventors outstrips the BPO holders by a margin that is just downright staggering. And it's inventors who determine market costs, not BPO holders.
OMG finally someone who understands it. Thankyou
P.S. pos costs **** me off you cant make a dam thing in stations these days with out a few days wait.
If thats your real life i'm very jealous - Petwraith |
Salmeria
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2010.02.19 04:22:00 -
[29]
Originally by: I SoStoned
A lot of back and forth about T2 BPOs being an uneven competition against Invented BPCs.
Take a look at it... I can produce 1100 units of Conflagration Small from a BPO at a POS, per month. One production line, one BP, 30 days locked up in production.
With the same character's 10 other remaining production slots I can produce 400 crystals every 2 days 16 hours, or over the course of a month that's say... 11 runs on 10 lines for a total of 400*11=4400 pieces.
As I've got 3 characters doing this, that's over 12k Conflag small in a single month, far outstripping the output of my BPO.
The only way that my BPO has any advantage against that sheer capacity for output is in costing about 1/2 as much to manufacture. And by the time I sell the 12k produced by invention against the 1100 produced by the BPO I end up with far more profit from invention against the BPO.
Looking at T2 ships, which have far fewer BPOs available, the production of inventors outstrips the BPO holders by a margin that is just downright staggering. And it's inventors who determine market costs, not BPO holders.
Came here to post this, was beaten, good post :)
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.02.19 17:43:00 -
[30]
Quote:
Originally by: I SoStoned
A lot of back and forth about T2 BPOs being an uneven competition against Invented BPCs.
Take a look at it... I can produce 1100 units of Conflagration Small from a BPO at a POS, per month. One production line, one BP, 30 days locked up in production.
With the same character's 10 other remaining production slots I can produce 400 crystals every 2 days 16 hours, or over the course of a month that's say... 11 runs on 10 lines for a total of 400*11=4400 pieces.
As I've got 3 characters doing this, that's over 12k Conflag small in a single month, far outstripping the output of my BPO.
The only way that my BPO has any advantage against that sheer capacity for output is in costing about 1/2 as much to manufacture. And by the time I sell the 12k produced by invention against the 1100 produced by the BPO I end up with far more profit from invention against the BPO.
Looking at T2 ships, which have far fewer BPOs available, the production of inventors outstrips the BPO holders by a margin that is just downright staggering. And it's inventors who determine market costs, not BPO holders.
yea finally. But tech 2 bpo's are still unfair. Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. Breathe... Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa bigger breath... Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.
I puke in my mouth a little bit each time I hear the complaints. |
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