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Lara Torrin
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.01.24 09:47:00 -
[1]
Hi all.
I have just completed my first successful invention job (got 1 out of 5..) and it didn't result in what I was expecting. Now I have re-read my invention guides and re-calculated my chances and apart from making a bit of a mistake in understanding my chances of success, I still don't appear to understand how the number of runs work.
I was attempting to invent a Taranis BPC. I must have skipped over the part where you can calculate the number of runs as I thought it was the same as the BPC + the number the decriptor gives you. I put in an 8 run BPC, used the 'Test Reports' decriptor, and expected to get a 9 run BPC out of the end. (Test reports giving me +1 run according to everything I can find).
I didn't.. I got a 1 run BPC, which seems kind of pointless as the decriptor costs more than the production price difference between building with ME-2 and ME-4 (ie, with and without the decriptor).
Now i have gone back and read the number of runs thing again and I admit i misread the bit where it says proportion of runs (Ares BPC has a max run of 30, Taranas has a max run of 10), but using this it STILL seems like I was hard done by and should have gotten either 3 or 4 (2.6 + 1 either rounding up or down, I don't know which way eve does it for this).
Can someone please explain what happened and why I only got a single run BPC? if I can only get single runs out of invention then there is no use in using a decriptor for frigates at all...
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EternalFaust
Children of Anarchy
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Posted - 2010.01.24 10:57:00 -
[2]
Ok,
With ships you'll always get a 1 run bpc with no decryptor used no matter the input runs. With a decryptor instead of modifying the output runs you actually get the decryptors modifier as the total output runs.
So if you used a +9 decryptor you would receive a 9 run bpc.
The exact calculation to determine output runs from any invention job is this :
Min(Max(Truncate((Tech2BPMaxProductionLimit / 10) + DecryptorRunsModifier),1),Tech2BPMaxProductionLimit)
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Itako Kuzume
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Posted - 2010.01.24 11:00:00 -
[3]
You must use a max run BPC in order to get the runs bonus when using a decryptor. If you don't use a max run BPC the bonus has not effect and is wasted.
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Mr Greh
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Posted - 2010.01.24 11:06:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Itako Kuzume You must use a max run BPC in order to get the runs bonus when using a decryptor. If you don't use a max run BPC the bonus has not effect and is wasted.
Ah, sorry to butt in, but I am in the same situation. This makes sense, so you don't always have to research 'max' runs to get 'max' results for invention. Just to make sure I've got it right.
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Itako Kuzume
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Posted - 2010.01.24 11:16:00 -
[5]
For modules you should ALWAYS use a max run bpc when inventing. Inventing with a max run bpc will give you a 10 run T2 bpc when successful. Inventing with anything other than a max run bpc will give you a 1 run T2 bpc. If you are dumb enough to use decryptors for module invention the T1 bpc must be a max run bpc for the run bonus to take affect. So if you run an invention job with a max run bpc plus a +3 run decryptor you'd get a 13 run bpc.
Ammo is the same, just the number of runs you get from a max run bpc is more than with modules.
Ships are slightly different. You will ALWAYS get a 1 run T2 bpc no matter how many runs your T1 bpc was unless you use a decryptor. As with modules in order for the decryptor's run bonus to take effect you must use a max run bpc to invent from, otherwise its wasted.
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Lara Torrin
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.01.24 12:10:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Itako Kuzume
Ships are slightly different. You will ALWAYS get a 1 run T2 bpc no matter how many runs your T1 bpc was unless you use a decryptor. As with modules in order for the decryptor's run bonus to take effect you must use a max run bpc to invent from, otherwise its wasted.
Ok, so the decryptor I used gave +1 run.. I didnt use a max run BPC because i misunderstood the requirements.. If I used a max run BPC then i would have gotten how many runs out the the T2 BPC?
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Lutz Major
Austriae Est Imperare Orbi Universo
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Posted - 2010.01.24 12:46:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Lara Torrin Ok, so the decryptor I used gave +1 run.. I didnt use a max run BPC because i misunderstood the requirements.. If I used a max run BPC then i would have gotten how many runs out the the T2 BPC?
Two. See this thread too and also Ruziels post.
Originally by: Wiki Note that a consequence of this is that it is not worthwhile to use maximum run input BPCs when inventing ships without decryptors. When inventing ships, one run is both the maximum and minimum, thus additional runs on the input BPC will not improve the output. When using decryptors, maximum run BPCs are recommended to take full advantage of the run enhancements.
Simply put: No decryptors: no max-runs, because you will get a "mercy" one-run. Using decryptors with run-modifier: always use a max-run.
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Rin Taleda
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Posted - 2010.01.24 13:33:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Itako Kuzume You must use a max run BPC in order to get the runs bonus when using a decryptor. If you don't use a max run BPC the bonus has not effect and is wasted.
Not true. If you use a 1 run bpc and a +9 decryptor you will get a 9 run bpc. If you use a max run bpc with a +9 decryptor you will get a 10 run bpc for ships and a 19 run bpc for modules. This doesn't tell the whole story, so check out the formula.
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Lara Torrin
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.01.24 14:17:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Lutz Major
Originally by: Lara Torrin Ok, so the decryptor I used gave +1 run.. I didnt use a max run BPC because i misunderstood the requirements.. If I used a max run BPC then i would have gotten how many runs out the the T2 BPC?
Two. See this thread too and also Ruziels post.
Originally by: Wiki Note that a consequence of this is that it is not worthwhile to use maximum run input BPCs when inventing ships without decryptors. When inventing ships, one run is both the maximum and minimum, thus additional runs on the input BPC will not improve the output. When using decryptors, maximum run BPCs are recommended to take full advantage of the run enhancements.
Simply put: No decryptors: no max-runs, because you will get a "mercy" one-run. Using decryptors with run-modifier: always use a max-run.
From the thread link.. "anything other than max runs is going to be rounded down to 0, leaving only the additional runs from the decryptor."
Meaning (because I didn't use max run) i only get the 1 from the decryptor, which is what I got..
Right.. So my options are spend 70M on a +9 run decryptor or just do single run copies.. I know what my spreadsheet says is the best option..
Thanks for all the help!
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Karox Lominax
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Posted - 2010.01.25 07:02:00 -
[10]
Remember also that the +9 run decryptor definately makes it harder to invent (reduced success chance) and I think makes it more expensive to make (additional negative ME) though I can't say i've got the figures to hand to check.
When doing frigates, you're much better off (in most cases, you will have to run the numbers to check) in just doing lots and lots of 1 run BPCs and inventing them one by one. It will cost more in datacores, but they are the cheapest component you involve in the process (even the BPC probably cost you more in POS fuel unless you did it at a station, in which case you would have probably had a long wait for the output due to queues)
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Velda Chulai
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Posted - 2010.01.25 10:54:00 -
[11]
Lets take it from the top: If you're new to invention, begin by not using decryptors until you've knocked a few jobs out. Certain ship classes have higher rates of success than others, which add to the expense of your output.
Module BPCs will always produce output runs of 10 based on the number of output runs remaining on the blueprint copy used to produce the invented result. For example, a 300 run blueprint with a max run of 300 will produce a 10 run T2 BPC, while a 299 run blueprint with a max run of 300 will produce 9 run T2 BPC. This only applies to modules.
In the case of ships, you will only ever get a 1 run T2 BPC no matter how many runs you're using. If you're using a full run ship BPC as your source, and you use a decryptor, then you'll get an additional run.
Say you're producing an Anathema. Each job requires 2 Amarrian Starship Engineering Datacores and two Mechanical Engineering Datacores. The base chance of success is about 30%, give or take skills, so you need to run about 4 jobs before you get a successful blueprint. If your magnate print is 1-run or 10-run, you'll only get a 1-run for your effort. If you added a Circular Logic decryptor (worth about 2M or so) your odds for success will be reduced to about 20% - you'll need about 5-6 runs before you hit paydirt.
In no case do the input BPC's runs affect the output BPC, except when you use a decryptor, but a decryptor that adds bonus runs will always do so provided the job itself is successful. In effect, a decryptor resets all the runs on a copy and notes only whether it was a full run. Next, it applies its output bonus - in the case of the Anathema print with the Circular Logic applied, the print will be a +9. Then, if it was a full run, the print will get one additional run - 10 runs total.
When you're discussing modules, however, the rules are a bit different; first, it's almost never worth burning up several million in Datacores to get a few meager runs. A spreadsheet could better illustrate the input costs of the materials, but the bottom line is that the sliver of extra profit you might generate isn't worth adding a regular supply of decryptors and datacores to a pile of failed invention runs.
For me, I never bother with full run ship BPCs. They take too long to generate, and four days of copy jobs per print never justify themselves, however with the help of a few decryptors and about three days or production, I'll see results that effectively cut the cost of my datacores and result in sweet, sweet output.
I hope that provides some insight.
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