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Unscannable ship setups - is this intended?

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Travor Kalimatus	Posted - 2010.01.14 06:24:00 - [1] I am asking about setups with eccm modules, wich makes your ship completely unscannable even teoretically with all best skills and equip. Unlike cloaked ships, those ships can make money completely risk free even in the most dangerous systems. Imo, this is a bad game mechanic.
General Meridus Minmatar	Posted - 2010.01.14 06:44:00 - [2] I don't see this as a bad mechanic. To make such a ship completely gimps any outgoing dps. I suggest you try yourself to set up a few. You will quickly see that you need every bonus in the book, to make anything over the size of a cruiser work. Many ships don't have the slot layout, or their scan res. is too low. You will need boosters, a command ship, very expensive implants, high skills, and often a Wolf Rayet system to make it all fly. I can make a Hulk unscannable, so whoop de do. Still can't launch a drone, and anyone can still find you with a core probe. Right? I tell you what. You go try and make an unscannable 400+ dps any type of ship, with some kind of a tank, and come back and post the fit. 400dps, thats not much. I mean your point is, these ships can make money risk free. Give it a try:)
King Rothgar Imperial Slave Hunter Society	Posted - 2010.01.14 08:09:00 - [3] Exactly, I have an unprobable curse setup. Guess what? It has no tank, no point, no mwd and no pvp or pve capability. It's just something to **** off probers with. The mechanic works well as it is. Although a viable pve setup can't be truly unprobable, slapping one or two ECCM's on gives you more time to see someone probing you without completely destroying your ability to mission or plex. I think that's perfectly legitimate given how easy it is to probe ships. I say this as both a pirate and a missioner. -----------------------------------------------------
achoura	Posted - 2010.01.14 13:37:00 - [4] Edited by: achoura on 14/01/2010 13:39:14 Originally by: General Meridus I don't see this as a bad mechanic. To make such a ship completely gimps any outgoing dps. I suggest you try yourself to set up a few. You will quickly see that you need every bonus in the book, to make anything over the size of a cruiser work. Many ships don't have the slot layout, or their scan res. is too low. You will need boosters, a command ship, very expensive implants, high skills, and often a Wolf Rayet system to make it all fly. I can make a Hulk unscannable, so whoop de do. Still can't launch a drone, and anyone can still find you with a core probe. Right? I tell you what. You go try and make an unscannable 400+ dps any type of ship, with some kind of a tank, and come back and post the fit. 400dps, thats not much. I mean your point is, these ships can make money risk free. Give it a try:) The unprobable T3 gang link, covert, bubble immune gang booster would like to say hi. As would the unprobable mission tengu would also like to say hello. It takes the eccm sub, 2 mids and one lowslot (or 1 ub + 3 mids) to make in unprobable so dealing ~500dps is quite easy - if you used low-grade implants it's easier. However if you us implants then you can happily do ~ 650dps, so anyone who knows what they're doing can mission in lowsec all they want. Anyway, as for your origional point - it doesn't gimp them, it doesn't prevent tham dealing or tanking damage and it doesn't stop them being good in pvp/pve fits. Ofc the added bonus of a pvp fit is you will never be jammed but missioners love them. It does however raise the question of the "I win" button again. Nanos virtually ment you were invincible hence they got nerfed. Unprobable T3 ships essentially give you the same invincibilty - yet not one peep from cpp *The EVE servers and their patches*
Mister Xerox	Posted - 2010.01.14 14:14:00 - [5] Wait wait... what? Yeah, I'm behind the curve here; you're saying that ECCM modules make it harder to scan down your ship? Details?
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.01.14 14:39:00 - [6] Originally by: Mister Xerox Wait wait... what? Yeah, I'm behind the curve here; you're saying that ECCM modules make it harder to scan down your ship? Details? if your sensor strength is larger than your sigradius ....
achoura	Posted - 2010.01.14 17:35:00 - [7] If the ratio is higher than 1.08 (ish). T3s eccm sub give them a better bonus than recons, so adding afew eccm mods makes it easy while maintaining dps and tank (particularly for pve) or just as the invincible command ship pumping bonuses into your gang. Using eccm implants means it can be done effectively with recons too in a reasonable fit, everything else though is to gimped to be useful. I'd like to believe it was a bous of flying a t3 ship, however as much as i love my tengu & legion, I know as well as everyone else we'll simple end up with highsec loaded with ravens and lowsec loaded with tengus. *The EVE servers and their patches*
Ghost Hunter Kinetic Vector	Posted - 2010.01.14 23:25:00 - [8] Edited by: Ghost Hunter on 14/01/2010 23:30:34 I'm half and half on this mechanic. I understand that it annoys pvp probers when their target is running a mission and cannot be scanned down. The target is invulnerable. (Unless its against Angels and they target paint the target.) However I thoroughly enjoy being able to mission in hostile space and against the odds with my only danger spots being stations and stargates. It opens up content to me that I would not be able to access otherwise because there are no stealth mechanics that allow me to do so. Looking back on how nearly close I've been tackled, and have been tackled in some cases, at these danger spots... I don't feel its completely broken, although its obviously tipped. I somewhat like that. It gives me a defensive option against enemy probers when I run missions. Before I had nothing, if I was being probed I was screwed. I was forced by mechanics to abandon what I was doing because I had 0 ability to defend against it. Now I can defend against it. @Achoura Essentially it can be the same invulnerability, but the context its used in is different. Nanos in pvp were damn near impossible to kill and very heavily skewed the battlefield. Unprobable ships tend to sacrifice some fitting (T3 cases) or most of their fitting (All other cases I can think of) and while this makes them supremely defensive against ECM, it doesn't do anything else in combat. Edit; Addressed Achoura, clarified some points. ______ True Slave Foundations Overseer The Seven Events of the Apocalypse The fourth event is described by Macaper as tthe appetite of nothing expands over the worldv;
Roemy Schneider Vanishing Point.	Posted - 2010.01.15 03:58:00 - [9] well... you can kill a command ship if it's not sitting inside a pos. the cov-ops, bubble-immune and un-probe'able t3 with warfare processor sub can do a better job than a _fully skilled_ command ship [unless you want more than 3 gang links] and cannot be touched at a safe spot and it requires a gang of 50-100, orbiting a gate at 12km, to have a tiny chance of killing it after jumping in. anyways... the eccm subs are too powerful in this regard. a nerf down to 10% would be a start but probably not enough. or from another angle: recon ships get a high signature with their high sensor strengths - the dissolution thingy subs could get a bit of a signature penalty aswell. and/or less base sensor anyways; the effect is kinda squared a bit. - putting the gist back into logistics
Ghost Hunter Kinetic Vector	Posted - 2010.01.15 04:28:00 - [10] A fair point. Off hand I would say give the links a penalty to increase a ships signature radius when active, but that has effects far beyond just making it probable. ______ True Slave Foundations Overseer The Seven Events of the Apocalypse The fourth event is described by Macaper as tthe appetite of nothing expands over the worldv;


Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2010.01.15 12:11:00 - [11] Edited by: Chribba on 15/01/2010 12:16:21 Out of the box probe chance list - Linkage edit/which instantly reveals a problem with the Sigil... seems it's radar strength is off compared to the other ships in the same line... BR'd. Secure 3rd party service

chatgris Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2010.01.16 19:22:00 - [12] Originally by: Roemy Schneider well... you can kill a command ship if it's not sitting inside a pos. the cov-ops, bubble-immune and un-probe'able t3 with warfare processor sub can do a better job than a _fully skilled_ command ship [unless you want more than 3 gang links] and cannot be touched at a safe spot More than 3 gang links? Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't a command ship fit a maximum of 3 active gang links, and a t3 ship just one? (active at a time?)
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.01.16 19:25:00 - [13] Originally by: chatgris Originally by: Roemy Schneider well... you can kill a command ship if it's not sitting inside a pos. the cov-ops, bubble-immune and un-probe'able t3 with warfare processor sub can do a better job than a _fully skilled_ command ship [unless you want more than 3 gang links] and cannot be touched at a safe spot More than 3 gang links? Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't a command ship fit a maximum of 3 active gang links, and a t3 ship just one? (active at a time?) Command Processor I
XXSketchxx Gallente Remote Soviet Industries	Posted - 2010.01.18 00:04:00 - [14] Unprobable pve ships is probably the only viable defense for running missions in low/null sec. And despite what some will say, the mission ship definitely loses some efficiency (needing to utilize 2 mid and 1 low slot for ECCM). For unprobable gang bonuses, I believe Abathur mentioned in the thread about Dominion 1.1 cap changes that at some point in the future it will be made so that gang bonuses only work when ship is on grid. Granted he stated that it was not to be done immediately but it was definitely on CCP's radar. _____________________________________________ -Sketch, Certified Pharmacist Need a Boost?
achoura	Posted - 2010.01.18 00:49:00 - [15] It was on ccps radar last year. The year before that. Oh and the one before that. *The EVE servers and their patches*
Roemy Schneider Vanishing Point.	Posted - 2010.01.19 06:42:00 - [16] the gang-bonus-system eats up too many resources as it is... more coordinate checks every second would crash 100v100 fights ohwait... - putting the gist back into logistics
King Dave The Viral	Posted - 2010.01.19 14:04:00 - [17] One, you can scan down "unscannable" ships with probes. There is a super secret to it.. Or you can just do it the old way and warp around dropping bookmarks. People used to be able to do it in minutes. "Evil Edna > just get director roles, put child **** in the corp bio and then petition ccp"
Liol Wongsta The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2010.02.25 01:18:00 - [18] Originally by: chatgris Originally by: Roemy Schneider well... you can kill a command ship if it's not sitting inside a pos. the cov-ops, bubble-immune and un-probe'able t3 with warfare processor sub can do a better job than a _fully skilled_ command ship [unless you want more than 3 gang links] and cannot be touched at a safe spot More than 3 gang links? Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't a command ship fit a maximum of 3 active gang links, and a t3 ship just one? (active at a time?) Ok, Correction time. A claymore can be fit to run 8 warfare links constantly. It costs a small fortune in co-pro's, but it can be done. I have one in my hangar and have had for quite some time now. The t3's with the right sub, can run 3 warfare links without command processors.
chatgris Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2010.02.25 01:37:00 - [19] Originally by: Liol Wongsta The t3's with the right sub, can run 3 warfare links without command processors. I think you are mistaken... Which sub is that?
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.02.25 02:40:00 - [20] Originally by: chatgris Originally by: Liol Wongsta The t3's with the right sub, can run 3 warfare links without command processors. I think you are mistaken... Which sub is that? Too tired for EFTing atm. but Warfare Processor defensive subsystem with 2 command processor modules fitted?

chatgris Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2010.02.25 03:34:00 - [21] Originally by: darius mclever Originally by: chatgris Originally by: Liol Wongsta The t3's with the right sub, can run 3 warfare links without command processors. I think you are mistaken... Which sub is that? Too tired for EFTing atm. but Warfare Processor defensive subsystem with 2 command processor modules fitted? If you look at my quote, he said "can run 3 warfare links without command processors." ** added for emphasis
Liol Wongsta The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2010.02.25 14:16:00 - [22] Originally by: Liol Wongsta The t3's with the right sub, can run 3 warfare links without command processors. My bad. Just checked my own fit, Command pro's are needed.
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.02.25 20:15:00 - [23] Originally by: chatgris If you look at my quote, he said "can run 3 warfare links without command processors." ** added for emphasis too tired and missed that. sorry^^
Exie Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.02.25 23:56:00 - [24] K so this is from the ever awesome EFT... [Tengu, Unscannable PvE] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II ECCM - Gravimetric II ECCM - Gravimetric II Gist X-Type Photon Scattering Field Gist X-Type Photon Scattering Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Caldari Navy Large Shield Extender Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Medium Core Defence Field Purger II Medium Core Defence Field Purger II Medium Warhead Calefaction Catalyst I Tengu Defensive - Supplemental Screening Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst With this set up you have a tank with Sansha at 382 DPS is 557 Kin and 445 EMP Is Capstable @ 31% with ECCM, and 60% with out ECCM on. Sig is 199 and with ECCM on Sensor Stregnth is 221 Has HG Talon set and Omega All in all I think this is a reasonable set up for some mission runner that flys a Tengu. Should ECCM and probing be nerfed, nah, I don't think so. But someone said it was a gimp set up to pVe in a unscannable ship... the tank and damage is not all that great with you bring in. Particularly when you consider how much you would have to grind thru in a lowsec L4 and I don't think this would live thru a L5. Someone with more experience would have to clarify as I am not much of a mission runner. E... We be Jammin'
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.02.26 07:38:00 - [25] 1. mixed passive/active setup is kind of strange. 2. an AB is missing! you can negate tons of damage with moving.
Amberlamps	Posted - 2010.02.26 15:25:00 - [26] Originally by: XXSketchxx For unprobable gang bonuses, I believe Abathur mentioned in the thread about Dominion 1.1 cap changes that at some point in the future it will be made so that gang bonuses only work when ship is on grid. Granted he stated that it was not to be done immediately but it was definitely on CCP's radar. Wow... that is really going to nerf the shield tankers even more. Not only do they have the missing shield bonus issue they will end having red shields every 2 minutes when you warp off grid or warp with fleet at a different rate... Utter failure. CCP won't fix the shield issue either, how often have we seen them fix issues which have been around for years?
Roemy Schneider Vanishing Point.	Posted - 2010.02.26 16:02:00 - [27] not necessarily... warfare link effects could only apply on grid whereas the leadership skills could still range across the system - putting the gist back into logistics
Ghost Hunter Kinetic Vector	Posted - 2010.02.26 20:56:00 - [28] Originally by: Exie All in all I think this is a reasonable set up for some mission runner that flys a Tengu. Should ECCM and probing be nerfed, nah, I don't think so. But someone said it was a gimp set up to pVe in a unscannable ship... the tank and damage is not all that great with you bring in. Particularly when you consider how much you would have to grind thru in a lowsec L4 and I don't think this would live thru a L5. Someone with more experience would have to clarify as I am not much of a mission runner. I've played around with some tentative numbers based on what I've made hourly in lowsec compared to highsec... Basically if you're trying to have a superior profit than high-sec, you will fail miserably. When the Probe Immune fitting is compared to the peak mission running potential in highsec, not even LP store bonuses from pirates can make up the difference. Especially when you have to salvage and loot half your own missions because most of the bounty is in tags. Maybe I've been looking at the numbers and situation all wrong, but as far my awareness goes profit wise ... It's best to stay in highsec, or rat in the 0.0 belts. In either case the probe immune fit is not worthwhile. It's really nice to have for my roleplay though, since I can earn the standings with my chosen faction at long last. ______ True Slave Foundations Overseer The Seven Events of the Apocalypse The fourth event is described by Macaper as tthe appetite of nothing expands over the worldv;
Marlona Sky D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2010.03.01 10:50:00 - [29] Originally by: XXSketchxx For unprobable gang bonuses, I believe Abathur mentioned in the thread about Dominion 1.1 cap changes that at some point in the future it will be made so that gang bonuses only work when ship is on grid. Granted he stated that it was not to be done immediately but it was definitely on CCP's radar. Where does it say that??? It would make more sense for them to have it where for every Command Processor/Gang Link you add to a ship, it lowers your sensor strength so your bonus giving ship is probable. Having to put bonus giving ships on grid for them to work is a horrible idea! If its a T3 bonus giving ship, it will be primaried and melted hella fast because you have **** for a tank when fitted for this. Big fight in 0.0 with Damnation giving bonuses, Titan warps in, DD's your Damnation's face and warps off or goes back in POS shield. Bonus giving ships sacrafice a whole hell of a lot to do that. Don't nerf the crap out of them to solve the 'unprobable' bonus ship issue. Even though its such a minor use I don't feel the need of these couple of ultra cry threads about them.
HeliosGal Caldari	Posted - 2010.03.01 11:48:00 - [30] make wrecks scannable and u remove the issue Signature - CCP what this game needs is more variance in PVE aspects and a little bit less PVP focus, more content more varied level 1-4 missions more than just 10 per faction high sec low sec and 00



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