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Aldrith Shutaq
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown Aegis Militia
41
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Posted - 2012.06.21 19:03:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'll just leave this here.
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Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
31
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Posted - 2012.06.21 19:15:00 -
[2] - Quote
hate to break it to you....
go see page 1 of the general forum, the thread is nearly 20 pages long. guess nobody invited you to the party? |
Aldrith Shutaq
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown Aegis Militia
41
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Posted - 2012.06.21 19:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
Ah, sorry about that. Thanks for the heads up!
Still though, it's relevant to this forum also. I guess if someone wants a more quiet place to discuss the market impact, ect. |
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
31
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Posted - 2012.06.21 19:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
You can be my +1 to the party. |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
199
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Posted - 2012.06.21 20:26:00 -
[5] - Quote
more like the endless isk sink. |
Tom Hagen
Twilight Empire Blazing Angels Alliance
71
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Posted - 2012.06.21 20:45:00 -
[6] - Quote
I can admit I get annoyed at things like this. But if I should be honest, what bugs me the most is that I wasn't part of it
I wasn't aware of that items in your cargo hold was included. Only by removing that shouldn't that fix the problem? After all isn't it the ship we are fighting and not what it have in the cargo hold?
I can also see both CCP thinking about taking action and players thinking they should. Clearly this wasn't working as intended for CCP (after all they changed it to stop it) and as such we can argue about if it is an exploit or not. But if CCP decide to take action, how about Pax Amaria? Since they changed it asap the effect of it got widely know, it didn't work as intended either and we can have a similar argument if that was an exploit or not.
Even if it sucks and Goons most likely will be able to control the market for a long time. I would say let them keep it, otherwise we will have a lot of grey zones where someone always will feel mistreated. The Goons used the system as countless others have done before them, insurance anyone, and yes CCP changed it because it didn't work as intended (but did they take away anything from the pilots involved).
Anyone else think otherwise? |
Ezra Tair
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
69
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Posted - 2012.06.21 20:53:00 -
[7] - Quote
Tom Hagen wrote:I can admit I get annoyed at things like this. But if I should be honest, what bugs me the most is that I wasn't part of it I wasn't aware of that items in your cargo hold was included. Only by removing that shouldn't that fix the problem? After all isn't it the ship we are fighting and not what it have in the cargo hold? I can also see both CCP thinking about taking action and players thinking they should. Clearly this wasn't working as intended for CCP (after all they changed it to stop it) and as such we can argue about if it is an exploit or not. But if CCP decide to take action, how about Pax Amaria? Since they changed it asap the effect of it got widely know, it didn't work as intended either and we can have a similar argument if that was an exploit or not. Even if it sucks and Goons most likely will be able to control the market for a long time. I would say let them keep it, otherwise we will have a lot of grey zones where someone always will feel mistreated. The Goons used the system as countless others have done before them, insurance anyone, and yes CCP changed it because it didn't work as intended (but did they take away anything from the pilots involved). Anyone else think otherwise?
I kinda want to see them use all the isk to crash some critial part of the market, like push the prices for minerals or moongo even further up or something. |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1346
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Posted - 2012.06.21 21:52:00 -
[8] - Quote
Ezra Tair wrote:Tom Hagen wrote:I can admit I get annoyed at things like this. But if I should be honest, what bugs me the most is that I wasn't part of it I wasn't aware of that items in your cargo hold was included. Only by removing that shouldn't that fix the problem? After all isn't it the ship we are fighting and not what it have in the cargo hold? I can also see both CCP thinking about taking action and players thinking they should. Clearly this wasn't working as intended for CCP (after all they changed it to stop it) and as such we can argue about if it is an exploit or not. But if CCP decide to take action, how about Pax Amaria? Since they changed it asap the effect of it got widely know, it didn't work as intended either and we can have a similar argument if that was an exploit or not. Even if it sucks and Goons most likely will be able to control the market for a long time. I would say let them keep it, otherwise we will have a lot of grey zones where someone always will feel mistreated. The Goons used the system as countless others have done before them, insurance anyone, and yes CCP changed it because it didn't work as intended (but did they take away anything from the pilots involved). Anyone else think otherwise? I kinda want to see them use all the isk to crash some critial part of the market, like push the prices for minerals or moongo even further up or something. That would be amusing, but until CCP come to a decision concerning removing the ISK it probably wouldn't be wise.
Personally I'd be inclined to let them keep most of it, but I have a feeling CCP are going to be pushed into responding by the sheer scale of the manipulation and the existance of that GD thread. What will be interesting is whether or not they decide to give negative wallets to goons members who accepted the ISK and spent it.
Either way I wouldn't want to be in CCP's position making a decision on this. And it was ballsy of goons to invest so heavily (to the point of cashing out their high ends) in a way likely to be deemed an exploit.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
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Posted - 2012.06.21 22:30:00 -
[9] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:I kinda want to see them use all the isk to crash some critial part of the market, like push the prices for minerals or moongo even further up or something. That would be amusing, but until CCP come to a decision concerning removing the ISK it probably wouldn't be wise.
Personally I'd be inclined to let them keep most of it, but I have a feeling CCP are going to be pushed into responding by the sheer scale of the manipulation and the existance of that GD thread. What will be interesting is whether or not they decide to give negative wallets to goons members who accepted the ISK and spent it.
Either way I wouldn't want to be in CCP's position making a decision on this. And it was ballsy of goons to invest so heavily (to the point of cashing out their high ends) in a way likely to be deemed an exploit.[/quote] Have you read the GD thread? Contrary to our expectations, the vast majority of posters are congratulating us and whatnot, there's very few tears & tinfoil posts. I mean hell, we even had Jade Constantine congratulate us, of all people. The overall response is very positive - I'd almost expect CCP to see a non-goon backlash if they neg-walleted us or something.
Regarding ballsy, only four or five of us were involved, so its not like we were gambling alliance money and assets on this. Strictly a private venture. And speaking to high ends specifically, I blew up my zydrine for what was the equivalent of selling it for something like 2k per unit. Pretty much a no-brainer, really. |
Gaia Ma'chello
V.I.C.E. Comic Mischief
16
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Posted - 2012.06.21 22:57:00 -
[10] - Quote
Eliminating counting cargo would not be sufficient. All you need to is find a module that no one uses or trades, but can be manufactured. Self-trade the price way up, fit them to you ship, explode.
There are little used hulls that would allow for the same thing even if only hulls would count. What would be needed is some better way to decide the true isk value of an item other than averaging market sales. I assume CCP already has such a system to prevent the re-occurrence of insurance fraud. No idea why it was not used. |
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Anya Ohaya
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
131
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Posted - 2012.06.21 23:37:00 -
[11] - Quote
Well I was able to buy a lot of cheap datacores, lowering my invention costs and boosting my T2 profit margins, so I can't say I'm unhappy. |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1346
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Posted - 2012.06.21 23:51:00 -
[12] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Have you read the GD thread? Contrary to our expectations, the vast majority of posters are congratulating us and whatnot, there's very few tears & tinfoil posts. I mean hell, we even had Jade Constantine congratulate us, of all people. The overall response is very positive - I'd almost expect CCP to see a non-goon backlash if they neg-walleted us or something. I must admit I've only read the first few pages, and then skipped to the dev post, so all I saw was goons posting followed by Jade rambling some incoherent babble about how goons earned her 8.7b.
corestwo wrote:Regarding ballsy, only four or five of us were involved, so its not like we were gambling alliance money and assets on this. Strictly a private venture. And speaking to high ends specifically, I blew up my zydrine for what was the equivalent of selling it for something like 2k per unit. Pretty much a no-brainer, really. Ahh yeah, that's not that bad with personal assets. Sorry, the GD thread made it sound like this was alliance mineral investments being liquidated.
I'm still not sure I'd have cashed in my Zydrine that way though, I'd probably have settled solely for destroying items I'd moved the price average on. Just saying it was pretty brave
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
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Posted - 2012.06.21 23:56:00 -
[13] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:I'm still not sure I'd have cashed in my Zydrine that way though, I'd probably have settled solely for destroying items I'd moved the price average on. Just saying it was pretty brave
Had to have a seed of some kind, might as well get under assets that are currently badly undervalued. |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1346
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Posted - 2012.06.22 00:04:00 -
[14] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Simi Kusoni wrote:I'm still not sure I'd have cashed in my Zydrine that way though, I'd probably have settled solely for destroying items I'd moved the price average on. Just saying it was pretty brave Had to have a seed of some kind, might as well get under assets that are currently badly undervalued. Hehe, too true.
Well I hope CCP don't go off on one and have a knee-jerf reaction to it all anyway, that jewdown thread has to be one of the best I've read in a while.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Kyle Ward
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
42
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Posted - 2012.06.22 00:06:00 -
[15] - Quote
What's a goonswarm?
Is it some kinda plant? Poastin with my main |
Haquer
Vorkuta Inc Goonswarm Federation
62
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Posted - 2012.06.22 02:37:00 -
[16] - Quote
Kyle Ward wrote:What's a goonswarm?
Is it some kinda plant?
Yes.
Yes it is. |
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
149
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Posted - 2012.06.22 02:41:00 -
[17] - Quote
we are plant |
Marsan
Production N Destruction INC.
35
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Posted - 2012.06.22 04:01:00 -
[18] - Quote
Obviously the goons are to blame for this outrage. (Had to be said.) |
DeliaPrescot
Balintol
21
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Posted - 2012.06.22 07:43:00 -
[19] - Quote
@corestwo
First congrats nice haul, second can i be smug now about my predictions on minerals here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1266773#post1266773
I can imagine you were quite happy to unload your inflated mineral stock and still make profit via FW shop.
The really interesting question is now how CCP will rule on your manipulation. We have different examples how CCP ruled last time, just check the AHARM debacle when they exploited the infinite range/tracking guns in C6 and CCP seized a lot of ISK after all. On the other hand CCP didn't do squad to players who exploited the PI "bug".
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Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1346
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Posted - 2012.06.22 08:24:00 -
[20] - Quote
DeliaPrescot wrote:@corestwo First congrats nice haul, second can i be smug now about my predictions on minerals here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1266773#post1266773I can imagine you were quite happy to unload your inflated mineral stock and still make profit via FW shop. The really interesting question is now how CCP will rule on your manipulation. We have different examples how CCP ruled last time, just check the AHARM debacle when they exploited the infinite range/tracking guns in C6 and CCP seized a lot of ISK after all. On the other hand CCP didn't do squad to players who exploited the PI "bug". Judging from your mineral predictions in the linked thread, I'm guessing you haven't seen the stats CCP released showing that mining actually decreased for a time? And that volume mined is still around the same now as it was pre-nerf?
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
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DeliaPrescot
Balintol
21
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Posted - 2012.06.22 08:40:00 -
[21] - Quote
I'm pretty sure when i made that predictions the stats weren't published but even if, the prices of high end minerals plummet, less incentive to mine at all in 0.0. Anyway the interesting part are the highsec minerals, lets see the stats in 2 months and if the permanent Hulkageddon will have a lasting effect on minerals in contrast to ice. |
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
38
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Posted - 2012.06.22 08:56:00 -
[22] - Quote
trit pye and mex seem to be on the rise, http://ore.cerlestes.de/index.html#site:trend yet every thing else is in decline. |
volhar
V Enterprises
3
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Posted - 2012.06.22 14:00:00 -
[23] - Quote
Pyrox is not far from being the top ore in all of eve. That's pretty amusing |
OllieNorth
Recidivists Incorporated
217
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Posted - 2012.06.22 22:07:00 -
[24] - Quote
Well, I for one am impressed. More entertainment from the friendly neighborhood Goons. I enjoy the interesting ways you guys come up with to pull one over. |
Ashina Sito
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
41
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Posted - 2012.06.23 08:16:00 -
[25] - Quote
corestwo wrote: Have you read the GD thread? Contrary to our expectations, the vast majority of posters are congratulating us and whatnot, there's very few tears & tinfoil posts. I mean hell, we even had Jade Constantine congratulate us, of all people. The overall response is very positive - I'd almost expect CCP to see a non-goon backlash if they neg-walleted us or something.
Regarding ballsy, only four or five of us were involved, so its not like we were gambling alliance money and assets on this. Strictly a private venture. And speaking to high ends specifically, I blew up my zydrine for what was the equivalent of selling it for something like 2k per unit. Pretty much a no-brainer, really.
I suspect that CCP will do their best to neutralize what happened.
The plan had 2 major flaws.
Too big. Abused the situation to the point where CCP has to do something. The only something they can do is to try and reverse what happened.
The second problem is that there was in fact an exploit involved. LP payouts for items not destroyed. Since the action included this, and the additional LP earned increased the ability to continue the project, most if not all of the ISK/assets become tainted.
There really is a third issue as well....
Don't spit in the face of the person who has all the power.
The GD post has all of the topical vitriol if a normal Goon post. Problem is that it is that a lot of it is directed towards CCP, the people who's game you play, the people who would be making the decisions as to whether what was done was a problem, the people who would decide what would be done if it needed to be dealt with.
Next time I would suggest sticking with stealing candy from a baby, not from the policeman. |
qDoctor Strangelove
Beware of the Red Fox
26
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Posted - 2012.06.23 10:03:00 -
[26] - Quote
Ashina Sito wrote:corestwo wrote: Have you read the GD thread? Contrary to our expectations, the vast majority of posters are congratulating us and whatnot, there's very few tears & tinfoil posts. I mean hell, we even had Jade Constantine congratulate us, of all people. The overall response is very positive - I'd almost expect CCP to see a non-goon backlash if they neg-walleted us or something.
Regarding ballsy, only four or five of us were involved, so its not like we were gambling alliance money and assets on this. Strictly a private venture. And speaking to high ends specifically, I blew up my zydrine for what was the equivalent of selling it for something like 2k per unit. Pretty much a no-brainer, really.
I suspect that CCP will do their best to neutralize what happened. The plan had 2 major flaws. Too big. Abused the situation to the point where CCP has to do something. The only something they can do is to try and reverse what happened. The second problem is that there was in fact an exploit involved. LP payouts for items not destroyed. Since the action included this, and the additional LP earned increased the ability to continue the project, most if not all of the ISK/assets become tainted. There really is a third issue as well.... Don't spit in the face of the person who has all the power. The GD post has all of the topical vitriol if a normal Goon post. Problem is that it is that a lot of it is directed towards CCP, the people who's game you play, the people who would be making the decisions as to whether what was done was a problem, the people who would decide what would be done if it needed to be dealt with. Next time I would suggest sticking with stealing candy from a baby, not from the policeman.
Maybee CCP should have listened before going live with a flawed mechanic?
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clixor
Celluloid Gurus
26
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Posted - 2012.06.23 10:18:00 -
[27] - Quote
I had the feeling something was up as i figured it would take a while before the GENERAL FW crowd would convert to cores. In fact, i still believe that the natural preference for FW people to convert will be other items as likely few will bother to do the math.
So, when in remote markets all the buy orders were annihilated, i but largish buy orders at ridiculous low prices (at least, i hope lowish). and guess what, they still were filling by the same persons.
I think it was very naive from CCP to, after all these years, not anticipate this mechanic would be abused. In this sense i think the responsibility is with CCP and not with the people working the system. So, yeah, i think they should've kept their stuffs.
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corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
479
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Posted - 2012.06.23 19:24:00 -
[28] - Quote
Ashina Sito wrote:The GD post has all of the topical vitriol if a normal Goon post. Problem is that it is that a lot of it is directed towards CCP, the people who's game you play, the people who would be making the decisions as to whether what was done was a problem, the people who would decide what would be done if it needed to be dealt with. The GD OP is very considerate to CCP, especially if you think about what it could have been. There's no "haha CCP is so ****ing stupid, look what they let us do" and so on.
And regarding your "too big" thing, insurance fraud could easily have wound up this big. Pax Amarria could have wound up this big (the only reason it didn't was the time between public announcement of it and CCP patch of it was literally one day). PI, all told, probably DID make people as much if not more money. All three were unintended consequences of CCP's mechanics, just like this was.
clixor wrote:I think it was very naive from CCP to, after all these years, not anticipate this mechanic would be abused. In this sense i think the responsibility is with CCP and not with the people working the system. So, yeah, i think they should've kept their stuffs.
Especially when multiple people on multiple occasions told them that it would happen. . |
Ashina Sito
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
42
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Posted - 2012.06.23 20:08:00 -
[29] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Ashina Sito wrote:The GD post has all of the topical vitriol if a normal Goon post. Problem is that it is that a lot of it is directed towards CCP, the people who's game you play, the people who would be making the decisions as to whether what was done was a problem, the people who would decide what would be done if it needed to be dealt with. The GD OP is very considerate to CCP, especially if you think about what it could have been. There's no "haha CCP is so ****ing stupid, look what they let us do" and so on. And regarding your "too big" thing, insurance fraud could easily have wound up this big. Pax Amarria could have wound up this big (the only reason it didn't was the time between public announcement of it and CCP patch of it was literally one day). PI, all told, probably DID make people as much if not more money. All three were unintended consequences of CCP's mechanics, just like this was.
I reread the OP on the GD forum and you are correct. There was less attitude thrown at CCP then I remembered. It was all the rest of the aloof smugness and attitude towards everyone else that tainted my view.
As to the other issues you brought up.
- Insurance Fraud was a wide spread issue. (I did some myself) It was not confined to a small number of individuals. It was done over a long period when the market prices allowed it to do so.
- Pax Amarria was the same, fundamentally the price of nox fell to the point where Pax became the floor, just like shuttles and Trit, it's just that the prices on the market were higher for Nox.
- PI launch was a disaster. I thought CCP was going to do something about it so did not get involved with that one.
In each of these situations, there was no bug. LP for non-destroyed items was a bug. The resulting increase in LP and the ability to repeatedly reuse loot drops to push up the LP generation is where CCP has a very safe place to tag this as an exploit.
The GD post clearly states that the bug was taken full advantage of. Even though the infinite Loop LP generation was not intended in Theory you could claim it was just game mechanics at work. With the bug providing a multiplier effect and the use of it makes the whole process an exploit that CCP would deal with.
Additionally there was no way to create assets out of thin air in any of those issues listed above. Someone had to mine the mins and build the ships to blow up. NPC sell orders have a fixed number to sell and then need to be refreshed for Pax, same for PI. The Infinite Loop LP Was clearly broken game mechanics.
On another note, I have been surprised that no on else has mentioned that this whole thing was forecast within minutes of CCP posting the FW changes blog. It was easy to see that the system could potentially be beat if you could manipulate the market. Personally I would not have even tried.... because I knew that it would be considered a violation by CCP.
In the end, it is CCP's game. They set the rules. What happened was not considered acceptable by CCP. Something would be done. Next time don't go so far and maybe CCP will let you keep the illicit gains. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
484
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Posted - 2012.06.23 22:10:00 -
[30] - Quote
Ashina Sito wrote: The GD post clearly states that the bug was taken full advantage of. Even though the infinite Loop LP generation was not intended in Theory you could claim it was just game mechanics at work. With the bug providing a multiplier effect and the use of it makes the whole process an exploit that CCP would deal with.
The fact that the OP calls it a bug (specifically, the fact that cargo gave LP) is pretty bad writing on his part - it probably wasn't. Nothing in the devblog or patch notes give any indication that it would have worked any differently than that, so perhaps CCP merely realized that they were rewarding players twice for kills, once with LP and then again with loot from the kill?
Ashina Sito wrote:Additionally there was no way to create assets out of thin air in any of those issues listed above. Someone had to mine the mins and build the ships to blow up. NPC sell orders have a fixed number to sell and then need to be refreshed for Pax, same for PI. The Infinite Loop LP Was clearly broken game mechanics. I'd call insurance payouts "creating something out of thin air." And the NPC orders did not have a fixed number to sell - if you created a buy order for them at the sell order price, it would sell you as many as you wanted. I personally bought 40 million units of them at once this way.
Ashina Sito wrote:On another note, I have been surprised that no on else has mentioned that this whole thing was forecast within minutes of CCP posting the FW changes blog. It was easy to see that the system could potentially be beat if you could manipulate the market. Personally I would not have even tried.... because I knew that it would be considered a violation by CCP. Myself and many other players disagree with you that it's a violation of the rules and are concerned about the precedent that it sets for the notional sandbox should CCP deem it such.
Ashina Sito wrote:In the end, it is CCP's game. They set the rules. What happened was not considered acceptable by CCP. Something would be done. Next time don't go so far and maybe CCP will let you keep the illicit gains. To be fair, at this point apparently they've merely taken the assets while they investigate further because they don't want us to launder them or something...they simply didn't tell us that that's why they took anything until twelve hours after they took it. Oops. I find this amusing, considering that I had specifically pulled down all of my sell orders so as to avoid the impression that I was attempting to do just that. Nonetheless, if an investigation is ongoing (which it is), it is premature to say that CCP deemed it unacceptable. . |
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