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Anslo
The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2009.12.20 16:05:00 -
[61]
Attention *****, Attention *****, lookit me! I'm gonna be bad and do things that could get me in trouble! Ohohohoh lookit meeeeeeeeee!
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Juan Valhdez
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Posted - 2009.12.20 16:52:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus Yep. Myself and a few of my mates are going to become terrorists in game in the hope of forcing CCP to change their game design.
The issue is insurance. It's a huge ISK faucet, and when exploited on an industrial scale it's capable of dumping literally hundreds of billions of raw ISK into the game every month. This is a bad thing.
Carebears want insurance removed from suicide ganking payouts but they don't want the insurance removed from their own ships. I simply want insurance removed completely from every ship, at every level. Let new characters enjoy a three month grace period of insurance use and ban people for using 'insurance alts' for insurance fraud, just like you would if you were using alts as disposable hitmen and recycling them after their sec is ruined.
Right now it's very easy to use a T1 fit Geddon as an example and have the total loss be around 4m ISK after insurance. I can kill just about any sort of smallish cruiser size ship solo in high sec with this, and I can kill BCs and BS with only a pair or maybe three or four. No ship is safe in highsec with some simple tactics and a little bit of coordination from a few friends.
Ramp up the scale and you can kill freighters and Orcas quite easily. But my goal isn't to simply kill freighters. It's to make CCP sit up and take notice of the horribly broken game design that is insurance.
Currently there are multiple players that are self destructing ships on a literally industrial scale, making tens of billions of raw ISK per month with 'insurance fraud'. This causes inflation and will in the long term hurt the economy. So I'm going to start using this mechanism to inflict the pain of financial loss upon as many players as possible so that they now have a direct and personal stake in seeing insurance removed from the game completely.
Is this griefing? Absolutely not. I'm profiting from my actions, so it's piracy. Completely legit gameplay. Insurance simply facilitates my particular tactics, and once those are made obsolete by the removal of insurance, I'll revert to more traditional ways of doing things.
The in game killings will continue on as wide a scale as possible until the game is changed for the better with the removal of insurance. Anyone interested in assisting me with this campaign of militant destruction can contact me in game. The more the merrier.
Oh, and one more thing- jump freighter pilots, we're coming for you.
Cool wall of text brah |
Kuronaga
The Drekla Consortium
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Posted - 2009.12.20 17:05:00 -
[63]
insurance is what seperates high priority targets from "meh" targets, and it is what keeps a pvp'r from completely voiding himself out of the game.
ignorant thread is ignorant, moving on.
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Nareg Maxence
Gallente JotunHeim Hird
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Posted - 2009.12.20 17:15:00 -
[64]
I totally agree that insurance should be removed. It keeps mineral prices artificially high and it encourages racing to bigger ships.
Problems that arise if you remove it may be lower mineral prices, making mining less viable. Therefore if you do remove it, you need to balance loot drops so mining becomes the main source of new minerals.
One way to do that would be to have npc wrecks drop broken modules that need to be reverse engineered into blueprints for named mods, instead of fully working modules. Then npc wrecks becomes a drain for minerals instead of a faucet.
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Merii Kha'sen
Amarr Unity Exploration
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Posted - 2009.12.20 17:55:00 -
[65]
I never insure my ships anyway, since I fly Tech 2. Fix tech 2 insurance payouts first, then we can talk about removing it.
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Shawshanke
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Posted - 2009.12.20 18:09:00 -
[66]
CCP doesn't really give a crap about the "carebear playerbase", everything they do for carbears is only to keep enough victims around to feed their greifer playerbase. The player base they truly care about is the 0.0 alliances although vastly smaller according to the map, every video CCP comes out with is completely centered on 0.0 alliances. The last alliance tournament we saw how CCP was tripping over themselves to hang off of goon swarms man b00bs. The 0.0 alliances boast about their profits from suicide ganking all the time, atlas boasts that 2 of their newest titans were paid for entirely by suicide ganking.
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Ryhss
Caldari The Templar Navy
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Posted - 2009.12.20 18:12:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus Yep. Myself and a few of my mates are going to become terrorists in game in the hope of forcing CCP to change their game design.
The issue is insurance. It's a huge ISK faucet, and when exploited on an industrial scale it's capable of dumping literally hundreds of billions of raw ISK into the game every month. This is a bad thing.
Carebears want insurance removed from suicide ganking payouts but they don't want the insurance removed from their own ships. I simply want insurance removed completely from every ship, at every level. Let new characters enjoy a three month grace period of insurance use and ban people for using 'insurance alts' for insurance fraud, just like you would if you were using alts as disposable hitmen and recycling them after their sec is ruined.
Right now it's very easy to use a T1 fit Geddon as an example and have the total loss be around 4m ISK after insurance. I can kill just about any sort of smallish cruiser size ship solo in high sec with this, and I can kill BCs and BS with only a pair or maybe three or four. No ship is safe in highsec with some simple tactics and a little bit of coordination from a few friends.
Ramp up the scale and you can kill freighters and Orcas quite easily. But my goal isn't to simply kill freighters. It's to make CCP sit up and take notice of the horribly broken game design that is insurance.
Currently there are multiple players that are self destructing ships on a literally industrial scale, making tens of billions of raw ISK per month with 'insurance fraud'. This causes inflation and will in the long term hurt the economy. So I'm going to start using this mechanism to inflict the pain of financial loss upon as many players as possible so that they now have a direct and personal stake in seeing insurance removed from the game completely.
Is this griefing? Absolutely not. I'm profiting from my actions, so it's piracy. Completely legit gameplay. Insurance simply facilitates my particular tactics, and once those are made obsolete by the removal of insurance, I'll revert to more traditional ways of doing things.
The in game killings will continue on as wide a scale as possible until the game is changed for the better with the removal of insurance. Anyone interested in assisting me with this campaign of militant destruction can contact me in game. The more the merrier.
Oh, and one more thing- jump freighter pilots, we're coming for you.
This tactic will do nothing to CCP. ITt will just **** off abunch of players who will then hunt you down, they'll even suicide gank you for the insurance. I would. I think not, therefore I am not...............
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Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
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Posted - 2009.12.20 18:26:00 -
[68]
You're a plonker with more moodswings than a pregnant wife, Bellum.
For months you repeatedly post on the forum crying about game mechanics & balancing problems, then you post a "Dominion is an awesome patch" thread.
Now you're back to crying about something that only you seem to really care about.
I really should have leanrt by now to stop bothering to read your posts.
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Ryusoath Orillian
Minmatar INDUSTIENCE
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Posted - 2009.12.20 18:29:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus Yep. Myself and a few of my mates are going to become terrorists in game in the hope of forcing CCP to change their game design.
The issue is insurance. It's a huge ISK faucet, and when exploited on an industrial scale it's capable of dumping literally hundreds of billions of raw ISK into the game every month. This is a bad thing.
Carebears want insurance removed from suicide ganking payouts but they don't want the insurance removed from their own ships. I simply want insurance removed completely from every ship, at every level. Let new characters enjoy a three month grace period of insurance use and ban people for using 'insurance alts' for insurance fraud, just like you would if you were using alts as disposable hitmen and recycling them after their sec is ruined.
Right now it's very easy to use a T1 fit Geddon as an example and have the total loss be around 4m ISK after insurance. I can kill just about any sort of smallish cruiser size ship solo in high sec with this, and I can kill BCs and BS with only a pair or maybe three or four. No ship is safe in highsec with some simple tactics and a little bit of coordination from a few friends.
Ramp up the scale and you can kill freighters and Orcas quite easily. But my goal isn't to simply kill freighters. It's to make CCP sit up and take notice of the horribly broken game design that is insurance.
Currently there are multiple players that are self destructing ships on a literally industrial scale, making tens of billions of raw ISK per month with 'insurance fraud'. This causes inflation and will in the long term hurt the economy. So I'm going to start using this mechanism to inflict the pain of financial loss upon as many players as possible so that they now have a direct and personal stake in seeing insurance removed from the game completely.
Is this griefing? Absolutely not. I'm profiting from my actions, so it's piracy. Completely legit gameplay. Insurance simply facilitates my particular tactics, and once those are made obsolete by the removal of insurance, I'll revert to more traditional ways of doing things.
The in game killings will continue on as wide a scale as possible until the game is changed for the better with the removal of insurance. Anyone interested in assisting me with this campaign of militant destruction can contact me in game. The more the merrier.
Oh, and one more thing- jump freighter pilots, we're coming for you.
i only want insurance removed if the (build reqs.) cost of all t1 ships is lowered. if not it will kill pvp for all but the super rich (bellum). i can't afford to lose 100m in 10 seconds when i'm primaried . bellum, srsly, i'm usually with you but this **** goes against pvp. **** insurance sure, but make a bs cost 10m then. people with a ****ton of money can afford to throw 100m ships away all time.
cheaper ships = more pvp. the only reason most people i know can afford to pvp in anything bigger than a frigate is because of insurance.
and why do you want ccp to nerf suicide ganking ? you some kind of carebear ?
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Scatim Helicon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.12.20 18:37:00 -
[70]
Hi, we've been doing this for a year or so now.
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Awesome Possum
Imperium Signal Corps
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Posted - 2009.12.20 18:39:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Chribba I for one welcome all the salvage that is one of the results of this terror act
Is this an official Chribba endorsement of said tactics?
If Chribba likes it, it must be good for Eve. ♥
Wreck Disposal Services |
Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition
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Posted - 2009.12.20 18:42:00 -
[72]
While I think that insurance could use some work, the current system does provide that hard cap for mineral prices. Although Bellums figures presented here show that most miner/producers of Tier 3 ships fail at doing basic math.
If insurance were removed completely, prices for ships and minerals would plummet because frankly the main flaw with the EVE economy is that people really don't have to survive on the money they make. Under the current production/marketing model you will ALWAYS have people who sell for less than the ship/modules are worth using the "if I mine it, its free" idiotic philosophy.
It does strike me that if more things were introduced in game that people desired to purchase (possibly through Incarna) beyond simply ships and equipment, perhaps people would begin to try to keep the mining/production mechanic truly profitable. Although you will probably always have the idiots in game that think their mined minerals are free.
Ironically, the two things that keep the economy stable are insurance payouts and resellers (the people buying the ships/modules you made for "free" and reselling them for actual profit).
===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Halcyon Ingenium
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Posted - 2009.12.20 18:47:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus Yep. Myself and a few of my mates are going to become terrorists in game in the hope of forcing CCP to change their game design.
The issue is insurance. It's a huge ISK faucet, and when exploited on an industrial scale it's capable of dumping literally hundreds of billions of raw ISK into the game every month. This is a bad thing.
Carebears want insurance removed from suicide ganking payouts but they don't want the insurance removed from their own ships. I simply want insurance removed completely from every ship, at every level. Let new characters enjoy a three month grace period of insurance use and ban people for using 'insurance alts' for insurance fraud, just like you would if you were using alts as disposable hitmen and recycling them after their sec is ruined.
Right now it's very easy to use a T1 fit Geddon as an example and have the total loss be around 4m ISK after insurance. I can kill just about any sort of smallish cruiser size ship solo in high sec with this, and I can kill BCs and BS with only a pair or maybe three or four. No ship is safe in highsec with some simple tactics and a little bit of coordination from a few friends.
Ramp up the scale and you can kill freighters and Orcas quite easily. But my goal isn't to simply kill freighters. It's to make CCP sit up and take notice of the horribly broken game design that is insurance.
Currently there are multiple players that are self destructing ships on a literally industrial scale, making tens of billions of raw ISK per month with 'insurance fraud'. This causes inflation and will in the long term hurt the economy. So I'm going to start using this mechanism to inflict the pain of financial loss upon as many players as possible so that they now have a direct and personal stake in seeing insurance removed from the game completely.
Is this griefing? Absolutely not. I'm profiting from my actions, so it's piracy. Completely legit gameplay. Insurance simply facilitates my particular tactics, and once those are made obsolete by the removal of insurance, I'll revert to more traditional ways of doing things.
The in game killings will continue on as wide a scale as possible until the game is changed for the better with the removal of insurance. Anyone interested in assisting me with this campaign of militant destruction can contact me in game. The more the merrier.
Oh, and one more thing- jump freighter pilots, we're coming for you.
This post is bad and you should feel bad. __________ I'm just an ordinary Caldari trying to turn an ISK. What's wrong with that? |
Rascael
Rascaels
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Posted - 2009.12.20 19:21:00 -
[74]
Simple solution. No insurance for self destruct, no insurance for concord kills (suicide ganking)
Insurance fraud would be much harder then. You would have to build ships, fly to mission or belts, have rats kill ship, repeat. Not very time productive now.
You have said your having concord kill you for speed, (and to gank others I suspect). Well there you go, no more speed, no more insurance payout, problem solved
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Nekopyat
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Posted - 2009.12.20 19:40:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Cpt Jagermeister Payout is way too high but completely removing it makes for more broke pvpers.
This is why insurance removal (or, say, caps that leave it available for newbies loosing cruisers etc) would have to be combined with better ways to make profit from PvP.
The solution I always liked is to have a more complete salvage system. Something like towing the wreaks back to station (or having a much bigger module) that recoups most of the construction value of the ship, or even allows repairs to be preformed to bring the ship back up to usable condition. Thus PvP could focus on the disabling and capture of ships. Right now you blow up most of the potential value of your targets.. poor profit.
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Khemul Zula
Amarr Keisen Trade League
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Posted - 2009.12.20 20:04:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Ryhss ...It psises me off when people think a games economy runs like a real economy. It does not matter how much ISK there is. CCP can add or subtract anyamount of ISK at any time with the push of a button or a few lines of code.
That is pretty much how real economies work. Atleast modern economies.
It's just that we are told not to think about it too much. Thinking leads to silly questions like "where the **** did those 100s of billions of dollars all the sudden come from?!".
Veal, murder. Baby Carrots, healthy snack. Food hypocrisy at work. |
Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2009.12.20 21:17:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Nareg Maxence Problems that arise if you remove it may be lower mineral prices, making mining less viable. Therefore if you do remove it, you need to balance loot drops so mining becomes the main source of new minerals.
One way to do that would be to have npc wrecks drop broken modules that need to be reverse engineered into blueprints for named mods, instead of fully working modules. Then npc wrecks becomes a drain for minerals instead of a faucet.
That's a great idea, I think. As a missioner I don't have much use for the minerals I refine from loot anyway. Though named modules would probably become scarce because looting wouldn't really even be worth doing at all. Hmm... would probably kill the salvage/rig market off too, ah well. So much for that
Originally by: Rascael Simple solution. No insurance for self destruct, no insurance for concord kills (suicide ganking)
Insurance fraud would be much harder then. You would have to build ships, fly to mission or belts, have rats kill ship, repeat. Not very time productive now.
You have said your having concord kill you for speed, (and to gank others I suspect). Well there you go, no more speed, no more insurance payout, problem solved
Leave self destructing alone. No really, it's pointless to change it. I would just have a corpmate blow up my ship or otherwise have someone outside waiting with a can for me to loot and get flagged to accomplish the same thing (and this would be faster than waiting for self destruct timer anyway). Aggressive acts should have consequences but simply collecting an insurance payout shouldn't be a big annoyance. But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
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Ki Tarra
Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2009.12.20 21:38:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Ki Tarra on 20/12/2009 21:39:30
Originally by: Rascael Insurance fraud would be much harder then. You would have to build ships, fly to mission or belts, have rats kill ship, repeat.
Because having a friend/alt blow the ship up would be too much work.
There is nothing wrong with insurance payouts. Same thing was happening when I first started playing back in 2006. I made my first million ISK from self-destructing frigates because it paid better than level 1 missions.
Don't worry, you will get plenty more tears when mineral prices self-correct. The only thing you should be worrying about is which mineral to horde to make the most profit when prices come back up.
I made my first billion ISK when pyerite shot up from ~4 ISK/unit to ~8 ISK/unit a patch latter.
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Governor LePetomane
Rock Ridge Brokerage Solutions
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Posted - 2009.12.20 21:39:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Washell Olivaw The problem is selfcorrecting. Mineral supply plus stockpile vs regular demand plus selfdestruct demand is average price. Selfdestruct competes with regular. Selfdestruct can only stay the same or increase while removing minerals and finished products from the economy. The only possible outcome is that at some point it will have used up the stockpile minerals on the supply side at which point prices will rise above insurance value.
Should the sitution threaten to become critical, they will just (silently) change the respawn of minerals to force a reduction on the supply side. They have done so before.
This. Plus, even if it weren't that, Jita T1 ship prices are all nastily close to insurance payout and could stand to go up a little anyway.
But nevertheless, Bellum Eternus is very smart and important and special and I've printed out his post and put it right there on the refrigerator where everybody can see it.
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2009.12.20 21:54:00 -
[80]
Make three insurance methods:
1.) Rookie Aid: Quite generous, free of charge, available for 2 weeks after the account is first activated.
2.) Carebear Special: High payout with average rates, low basic insurance, many options, if you blow up, rates go up.
3.) Combat Cover: High basic payout, but expensive rates for higher levels, doesn't increase per ship lost. 3.1.) Militia Support: Like Combat Cover but with better rates.
And if you want to add a drop of realism, make 52386 different varieties of the above that look and sound different but really are just screwing you over in 52386 different ways. --------
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Vaneshi SnowCrash
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Posted - 2009.12.20 22:57:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Venkul Mul Those that lose multi billion ships with faction, deadspace or officer fittings? insurance don't make a difference.
CNR's insure like a standard Raven. It the game pays out, your still heavily out of pocket. Most high end missions ships aren't insured for this reason.
Now, PvPers seem to insure everything that moves simply because it something is better than nothing.
Removing insurance might stop the odd bit of fraud now and again. But it'll cause a grinding halt to half the pew pew going on as people run out of ISK.
Which probably means they'll end up in empire grinding more L4's and we'll see an increase in the "nerf L4" rants appearing as a meta gaming tactic to break smaller corps/alliances.
Busted.
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Skoot
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.12.20 23:00:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Skoot on 20/12/2009 23:00:21 thanks a lot murder, I was making **** loads of isk from this and now you are going to get it taken away.
Edit: P.S. LocalThreat CEO says hi :P
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Jitko
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Posted - 2009.12.21 00:15:00 -
[83]
I'm a bit confused. How does insurance make a price floor on minerals? Because it keeps ship price stable? Thanks in advance for explaining it.
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Mr Epeen
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Posted - 2009.12.21 00:33:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiau
...i hope the devs don't change it to World of Eve, just because some whiny WoW players don't like to be blown up.
As long as there is insurance this IS World of EVE.
Hard to call a game harsh and hardcore when you have a respawn button.
I agree with the OP. Insurance...lose it. Make a real hardcore game out of EVE. Not some pretender that talks the talk.
Time to walk the walk, EVE.
Mr Epeen
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NEMESIS SIN
FURY.
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Posted - 2009.12.21 00:38:00 -
[85]
Edited by: NEMESIS SIN on 21/12/2009 00:44:54 You sir are an idiot beyond measure.
The end result (assuming CCP even gives a crap) will be to void the insurance payout of ships that are either killed by concord or self destructed. You are on a fail crusade and seem a bit butt hurt about something.
Que Cliche: Are you mad?
Considering my last encounter with the MeatSausage EXPRESS id be surprised if you could even find Jita.
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Proctoria Khian
Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2009.12.21 00:48:00 -
[86]
So would not the real problem be that miners sell their ore too cheap?
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stoicfaux
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Posted - 2009.12.21 01:27:00 -
[87]
Edited by: stoicfaux on 21/12/2009 01:36:02 So... if insurance fraud is viable and insurance payouts create a mineral price floor, then shouldn't that mean: a) minerals are being sold below the floor price, and b) this situation should be self-correcting? As people get in on the fraud, mineral prices should go back up once the mineral suppliers get a clue.
If insurance is removed, then, mineral prices will go into a free-fall, and thus ships become cheaper. Insurance makes ships cheap and affordable for PvP, so why not just have cheap ships to begin with? Is the insurance middle man really needed?
If insurance goes away, then PvPers will simply need to make deals with miners and manufacturers. This would make Eve politics more complicated and make Eve more sandboxy overall. Small/Casual PvPers would suffer, but the 0.0 alliances would be fine which is where the main action is. Or not?
Doesn't CCP have an economist on staff? Where's his dev blog?
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Nietzsche, and PvP" |
Anubis Xian
Reavers
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Posted - 2009.12.21 01:34:00 -
[88]
Insurance was supposed to promote pvp. I personally think it failed to have the desired effect.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.12.21 01:45:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Mr Epeen
Originally by: Miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiau
...i hope the devs don't change it to World of Eve, just because some whiny WoW players don't like to be blown up.
As long as there is insurance this IS World of EVE.
Hard to call a game harsh and hardcore when you have a respawn button.
I agree with the OP. Insurance...lose it. Make a real hardcore game out of EVE. Not some pretender that talks the talk.
Time to walk the walk, EVE.
Mr Epeen
Lets take it up a notch.
No more clones.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.12.21 02:28:00 -
[90]
Edited by: Bellum Eternus on 21/12/2009 02:28:37
Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer
Lets take it up a notch.
No more clones.
Haha, works for me. However, I think you'll see the 0.0 population reduced to about 1% of it's current level.
--------
So far the thread is going about as expected: a few people get it, the other 95% of the posts so far are from the losers and carebears that depend on insurance to play the game.
Insurance ruins the game because it devalues the one thing that makes Eve so special: loss. Lots of players worry that ships will be 'too expensive' to fly. Well, if you mean 'other than free' when you say 'too expensive' then yes, they'll be 'too expensive'.
Once insurance is removed, then all mineral prices will reach a true market equilibrium because there is no artificial cap on what their price will be due to insurance payouts. What we'll see are less expensive ships, although the amount of ISK per loss will increase. Both of these are good things.
Currently people fly the largest most powerful ship they can because it doesn't cost much more than the smaller versions. If insurance goes away then some of the smaller ships like T1 cruisers and BCs will increase in popularity due to better cost per performance.
The 'new players need insurance' argument: I'VE ALREADY STATED that I think that all new accounts (not characters) should get something like a 3-6 month period where players are allowed to insure their ships. After that they need to learn from their mistakes and take their lumps like everyone else. How hard is it to grasp this simple concept? So many posters seem to just ignore that I put that in the OP. 90% of you are simply reading what you want to read and ignoring the rest.
Insurance doesn't make PVP more viable. Why should T2 pilots be penalized with lack of insurance? Frankly I think that no insurance for T2 is CCP's admission that it's a bad idea, otherwise they would have added it for T2, no?
And then we have the issue of large scale insurance fraud dumping literally hundreds of billions of ISK into the economy, thereby creating inflation. It's only starting to become an issue, but once things get going and large groups of players realize just how easy it is to exploit this then it will start affecting the game in a very big way. Just look at how drastic the market was affected by the moon mineral exploits and the macro miners.
Speaking of which, macro mining doesn't create ISK out of thin air, insurance fraud does. How long before all the macro miner guys figure out that this is easier and safer and more profitable?
Only a complete idiot would be incapable of seeing the potential damage that this will do to the game. And everyone posting in this thread are just super smart, right? Right? -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Tier 5 Battleships
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