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Laciter
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Posted - 2009.12.09 04:14:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Konarr In reading all of the backlash on the new NPC corp tax rate, it seems the main objection is players use NPC corps because they do not enjoy PVP and/or the prospect of war. I understand protection isn't realistically free but then again neither is it realistic to assume police would allow a gang war to ensue in the middle of the city simply because some gangs formally announced their intentions to fight. The wardec rules in Empire drive people to NPC corps in the first place and are not realistic.
Wardecs can be used as a bully tactic and the only real refuge players have from PVP is to stay in empire and belong to NPC corps.
This tax offends me much less if the wardec in empire mechanics were also adjusted to maintain the casual player balance Dominion has upset.
Well, the war dec is really a bribe to CONCORD to look the other way. It just means CONCORD is a really corrupt organization.
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Korizan
Red Mercury Incorporated
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Posted - 2009.12.09 04:21:00 -
[122]
Edited by: Korizan on 09/12/2009 04:21:55
Originally by: RC Denton
Since a wardec is basically a bribe to Concord to look the other way the target of the wardec should be able to bribe Concord back to their side.
OHHH I LIKE THIS ONE
I wardec a corporation for 4 mil and they turn around and pay concord 8 mil to make it go away for a week the normal run of that wardec. Concord gives 4 mill to the corporation that created the wardec and keeps the other 4 mill for bothering them so to speak.
So 50 mill for an alliance and 100 mill to make it go away.
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Laciter
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Posted - 2009.12.09 04:26:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Malcolm Cree If you think the war dec game mechanics are somehow balanced and fair, then I would argue that you've never experienced being on the "shut down your corp" end of a war dec.
You have medium sized corps preying on small corps, in an attempt just to get them to disband. Do you really think that is the intended game mechanic?
People go into a childish mocking tone and get all "aww did you get bwowed up while mining?", but I argue that its these morons deccing high sec corps that are the real cowards. They're to afraid to fight in REAL pvp, they go after carebares.
This game mechanic is broken, plain and simple. It highly favors aggressors, and at the very least, doesn't cost enough isk.
I know EVE isn't RL, but real businesses compete with each other to the point where the weak get shut down or taken over. Pretty much anything you do in EVE, you are competing with other players. Even if you are "minding your own business" by mining or missioning in hi-sec, the resources you dump onto the market affect the supply for everyone.
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Laciter
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Posted - 2009.12.09 04:31:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 08/12/2009 18:31:14
Originally by: Spacemanc Eve isn't just a PvP game.
There is exactly one activity in EVE that is not subject to PvP: accepting and running missions. Hell, it's not even a whole activity û it's just part of one. So sure, it's not 100% PvP, just 99.5à
Accepting missions yes, but once the deadspace is spawned, everything within is considered a competitive resource.
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Junko Togawa
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.12.09 04:33:00 -
[125]
I like the current wardec system. 24h warning in which to give the wardec'ers the finger and hop to another corp. And if they persist, do it again. <Baby Plucky> 'No you dec the carebears I dec the carebears! Again and again and agaiiiiin! I dec'ed it again! I dec'ed it again!'
My wardec go down da hooooooooollleeee...buh-bye wardec!
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Genya Arikaido
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Posted - 2009.12.09 04:38:00 -
[126]
The entire point of wardecs IS being able to fight in Empire between the involved parties in such a way as to be just like 0.0. The difference is that Empire is used by those of us in 0.0 differently than those who live in Empire only.
We with a life in 0.0 use Empire as a place to train new recruits/newbies, trade and manufacturing...general logistics. Those who live purely in Empire want to do that to stay safe, but because they can be wardecced, they freak out and go into ubercarebear mode and drop into NPC corps.
So wardeccs are just used differently and have different effects on the involved parties based on the type or organization they are. To me, it's a perfect acceptable and needed part of the game. To a little 10 man mining corp being blackmailed into paying 100m a week for "protection", it's game breaking.
Not everyone is going to be like us in 0.0 and want to sling hot ammo around at each other all day. Some people want to have a different kind of fun without having to be in an NPC corp to do it.
Somehow, CCP needs to recognize and fix the wardec system to address the differences. I've tried a few times in the last 6-7 years to come up with an idea...but I keep drawing a blank.
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Malcolm Cree
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Posted - 2009.12.09 15:21:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Korizan Edited by: Korizan on 09/12/2009 04:55:31
Originally by: RC Denton
Since a wardec is basically a bribe to Concord to look the other way the target of the wardec should be able to bribe Concord back to their side.
OHHH I LIKE THIS ONE
I wardec a corporation for 4 mil and they turn around and pay concord 8 mil to make it go away for a week the normal run of that wardec.
So 50 mill for an alliance and 100 mill to make it go away.
Dangit, I posted the same thing 2 posts before this guy, and he's the only one that got noticed! Thats it. War deccing RC Denton.
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Swiftgaze
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Posted - 2009.12.09 15:43:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Korizan Edited by: Korizan on 09/12/2009 04:55:31
Originally by: RC Denton
Since a wardec is basically a bribe to Concord to look the other way the target of the wardec should be able to bribe Concord back to their side.
OHHH I LIKE THIS ONE
I wardec a corporation for 4 mil and they turn around and pay concord 8 mil to make it go away for a week the normal run of that wardec.
So 50 mill for an alliance and 100 mill to make it go away.
I abso-goddam-lutely love this.
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Tippia
Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.12.09 15:45:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Spacemanc
Originally by: Ranger 1 The main problem with your argument is that you mis-understand what hi-sec is.
It's High Security. Not complete security, not ultimate security, it's high security.
No once again its you that misunderstands. I fully aware that hi-sec isn't always hi-sec, so I suggested that maybe low-sec shouldn't always mean low-sec.
Then you are misunderstanding what highsec is. Highsec is always highsec, but what that means is simply this: that aggression comes at a cost. That's all it is. As the aggressor, you choose whether you want to pay for your aggression in the form of a lost ship and lost sec status, or in the form of a wardec fee. At no point will the fact that you're in highsec keep you from violencing someone's boat.
The "high" part of high-sec only refers to the fact hope that miserliness will keep people from shooting at each other at every opportunity, thus keeping the place somewhat more peaceful than it would otherwise be. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Kayleigh Lothian
Minmatar KIA Corporation Zenith Affinity
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Posted - 2009.12.10 05:02:00 -
[130]
You people realize that Spacemanc wants to play EVE-offline the single player game, right?
Even mission running does effect other people, as the ships, modules, ammunition and drones have to be bought of the market which means player interaction. You give your isk to the player that offers you the stuff at the lowest price in the station where you buy, hence rewarding him/her for a partial victory in market pvp.
The fact that you (Spacemanc) insist on the right define what is or is not pvp more or less shows that your mind is set in stone and since you "know" everything you do not need listen to what other people say. Also labling all things you do not want to do as "pvp" and all the things you find acceptable as "non-pvp" does not help your cause.
There are quite a few non-fighting pvpers in this game that fights much harder, dirtier and much more intence then the average member of a mainstream 0.0-alliance. The funny thing is that those guys has most likely damaged your wallet far more then any fighting-pvper ever will. They do more damage to your wallet then the 11% tax as well ----------------------
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Kadri Takala
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Posted - 2009.12.10 05:57:00 -
[131]
Edited by: Kadri Takala on 10/12/2009 06:01:27 Okay I gave up reading halfway through but I am a carebear myself and I even realise this game is pvp. Even carebears pvp whether they think they are or not.
- When you're trading on the market against other traders you're pvping. You're competing with them to buy and sell items. - When you manufacture items to ship to the market to sell it's the same thing expect you're just selling. You're still doing pvp. - When you've mined a roid that someone else won't be mining later on, you're pvping.
EDIT: I also hate to break it to you, but a lot of the player base in high sec are alts of pvpers. Carebears also rely on pvp to make their isk. If there was no pvp, no ships would be blown up. No ships would be sold. Industrialists would make no money and buy no minerals. Miners would get no money for their minerals.
In any case, the whole point of Eve is that you're not entirely safe. Keep in mind too that pvpers get their isk from somewhere, usually from carebearing.
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Psiri
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Posted - 2009.12.10 12:47:00 -
[132]
IMO
- Greatly reduce the profits of empire lvl IV mission running.
- Improve the rewards of lvl 1-3 mission running by a small ammount and let these missions frequently reward attribute implants (lvl 3 missions giving +3's and so fourth).
- Make lowsec ore and pirate bounties in line of those in 0.0 space.
- Remove non-mutual wars in highsec.
This would make highsec a better platform for beginners and highsec would primarily just be a place for manufacturing, RnD, trade and logistics.
Non-mutual wars are no different than piracy, I fail to see why it should be allowed in highsec. It's only justified by highsec currently being so damn profitable.
Force people into low and null-sec, EVE will be a so much better game for it.
The carebears that refuse to take the leap into harm's way can do so but will have to pay for it.
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Mrs Thaiberian
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Posted - 2009.12.10 13:21:00 -
[133]
The problem with the high-sec wardecs mechanic is the abuse some do with it.
1 A bunch of friends start a small mining corp
2 A bunch of pvp lovers bored to roam in 0.0 wasteland come to empire, choose and "easy prey" and wardec them just for fun.
3 the miners corp disband and join a NPC corp.
Frankly 11% tax to get rid of griefers is nothing.
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Ealiom
Allied Tactical Squadron
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Posted - 2009.12.10 14:00:00 -
[134]
The current War dec system does need an overhaul I would agree to that but I think NPC corps are a bad idea in general. There tax should be higher than 11%.
CCP did the numbers on average tax rates within corporations and the current NPC corp tax determined fair as in relation to an average tax rate of corporations. So the NPC pilots get an average tax rate and immunity to war decs and still complain.
Pump it up to at least 25% and grin as they hemorrhage isk.
Vicariously, I live while the whole world dies. Much better you than I.
BlackbirdExecutioner |
Jinayne
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Posted - 2009.12.10 14:33:00 -
[135]
I dont mind the tax as it currently stands, mainly as I dont earn near enough isk on my new (and only) character but I was most curious in the reaction of the hardcore PvP players, this tax has no real effect on them.
What I am mostly amused and bemused at :
Lots of PvP combat ready veterens all frothing at the mouth ready to fight... fight miners, industrialists, traders ,noobs ... why not each other ?
In 0.4 or below its FFA, see a target you can elect to engage or not yet all the Hardcore uberskilled PvP combat veterens are all in hi sec, camping noob schools or bumping miners around... flying belt to belt looking for a jetcan to flip, teasing miners to fight.
Honestly , its not rocket science to figure that a miner will most likely lack the skills and / or equipment to fight a specialist PvP combatant, hell even a PvP specialist would be at a extreme disadvantage should he equip a mining laser or a rack of mining drones... yet all these PvP equiped combat ships are looking to fight these target, makes me suspect that a lot of the hi sec PvP'ers dont want to fight PvP fighters.
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Foraven
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.12.10 14:57:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Jinayne Honestly , its not rocket science to figure that a miner will most likely lack the skills and / or equipment to fight a specialist PvP combatant, hell even a PvP specialist would be at a extreme disadvantage should he equip a mining laser or a rack of mining drones... yet all these PvP equiped combat ships are looking to fight these target, makes me suspect that a lot of the hi sec PvP'ers dont want to fight PvP fighters.
Yeah, a lot of pirates and can flippers are using expensive tech 2 ships. Either they have way too much isks to blow, or they expect to mop the floor with whoever they fight with.
What is gamebreaker with wardec is that it's rarely tied to economic/strategic concerns, it's just for the heck of it (ie it's done because someone has lots of isks to blow, rather than need to make more). That reduce the options when it comes to defending because the attacker often have deep pockets and a large stockpile of gears (ships/weapons/ammos) to do it. It would be much more balanced if war was fought over ressources (market, mining spot, mission agents and such), that way wars would occur only if there is something to gain from it...
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Bodega Cat
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Posted - 2009.12.10 15:28:00 -
[137]
I hate these threads, because everything done in eve, is vs. other players. End of story.
We are all PVPers. Some are just more aggressive about it, and want to blow up other peoples ships directly, others are more subtle but far more damaging... They like to sell crap they get as a collective for far less than what its worth and an entire side of the game (tech 1 manufacturing) is griefed to death because of it.
What is worse? I wish my noob friends who like to craft who come here could specialize in tech 1 market, but they can't, its been griefed by mission runners. They've effected my friends ideal playstyle and I can do very little about it. Does it bother me all that much? Not really because they've been forced to deal with it and find other nuanced ways to do it, or be effective at very few tech 1 items. I expect those who don't like direct conflict to do the same, either adapt and pay the 11% tax in an npc corp or move on to a bigger corp that provides some protection, or be creative enough to make a solo corp that has options for when they do get decked etc. etc. Or try being social and diplomatic, stop looking at them as bullies and try and work something out.
Like I said, you have options, CCP doesn't need to step in here if you ask me. This is emergent gameplay in practice, deal with it.
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Forge Lag
Jita Lag Preservation Fund
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Posted - 2009.12.10 15:35:00 -
[138]
EvE protects the cowardly aggresors and wardcecs abuse is just another part of it. The resoning being that unless you give aggressor an edge otherwise people would not engage. The very basic of PvP games is artificial, yet undestandable as there would not be random PvP otherwise and is no different in EvE or WoW.
The issue appears when you put D&D mechanics into PvP, with no headshots and no lasting injuries, which normally present risks no matter how superior the force is. This, together with lack of AOE weapons, leads to "blobbing" - in broder meaning - on every scale.
And then you put into this mess EVE with its metagaming, alting, corp hopping, docking, invulnerable wallet, aggro rules, PLEX ISK etc.
So for some, PvP or PvE is not about being victim or coward but about staying clear from a tangled mess of crappy design in sandbox game (and admit it, EvE was and still is full of total crap, the ability to avoid it is what makes the game good).
BTW, market PvP needs all sides to flag themselves for it by entering the "PvP arena", I cannot force you to sell me stuff if you do not want to participate in trade. If you want to force me into empire war, I demand right to force you into market war, pulling your goods out of your hangar whenever you dock (you can always undock and be safe from this).
...and this all still did not touch the whole large part of people who are cooperative over competitive in nature.
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Bodega Cat
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Posted - 2009.12.10 16:05:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Forge Lag
BTW, market PvP needs all sides to flag themselves for it by entering the "PvP arena", I cannot force you to sell me stuff if you do not want to participate in trade. If you want to force me into empire war, I demand right to force you into market war, pulling your goods out of your hangar whenever you dock (you can always undock and be safe from this).
...and this all still did not touch the whole large part of people who are cooperative over competitive in nature.
Edit: Also, market is not all about competition, it is also about finding ballance where both sides benefit from the exchange.
Then explain to me what you think about this entirely plausible scenario...
Imagine then for a moment, that the minerals you mined one day (or scrapped), or the loot you sold months or weeks ago, finds its way to a corporation that in turn for some grandiose purpose war decs you!
The very guns that a single particular ship mounts and turns on you is made from your spoils directly, how is this not in the least ironic? And at the grandest righteous? He kills you with stuff you helped to create and bring into this world. This game is GREAT because of it, and you my friend are not innocent! Unless you sell your wares ONLY to those who agree to shoot NPC pirates exclusive, you deserve what comes to you because you took that isk non-discriminatly, and cared not what the end results where beyond it. You are a war profiteer, and if not like i said before, if you sell only to the PVE "good" guys, then you should have plenty of allies who will come to your defense because of your good natured, and very very bizarre sort of contract.
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Traidor Disloyal
Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2009.12.10 17:20:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Foraven What is gamebreaker with wardec is that it's rarely tied to economic/strategic concerns, it's just for the heck of it (ie it's done because someone has lots of isks to blow, rather than need to make more).
The corp I belong to does it for economic reasons. We find targets that fly expensive ships or that have a pos that is not set up correctly (one that is easily taken by a handful of battleships over a span of 6 to 8 hours).
Sometimes we get lucky and decimate a corp (or an alliance) and their pos over a weeks time. Sometimes we don't and get our asses kicked (which is not that often). We do it because some of us find mission running, mining, and trading boring. And killing the so-called carebears in highsec is just another way to make isk. And it breaks the monotony for the ones that do mission run, mine, or trade.
And sometimes we get our best recruits from carebear corps/alliances we wardec. It's also kind of funny when an alliance thinks we are nuts for wardeccing them when we only have 20 people in corp and maybe (on a really good night) 10 online at any one time.
We also see ourselves has a teaching unit. If we wardec an alliance or a corp who is about to go out to low sec or 0.0 and that alliance or corp fails miserably then we have shown them that they are not ready for the big move from High Sec. If they can't handle us then they are not ready for low sec/null sec. ************************************************* I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it. |
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Jinayne
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Posted - 2009.12.10 17:30:00 -
[141]
The problem is not that players blow up other player ships, its more to do with the why. I wouldnt mind so much getting my Retriever trashed if I was intruding in a belt claimed by a aggressive corps for thier mining, I would ask some of the guys in the NPC corp chat if they fancies some battle over the belt.
The real issue with PvP in Hi Sec is that its just some players who want to pop ships for the 'lulz' , they want to fight in unfair combat for no more reason than to aquire killmails and e-peen.
I think it would be a reasonable start to basically declare 0.9-0.8 space as new player protection zones with no PvP allowed, however limit the type of ship classes allowed in that zone (say no greater than a mining frig or a entry level industrial, dissallow jetcanning). Say then 0.7 - 0.4 are tech limited PvP FFA zones (limit the tech to something a player with 3 - 6 months training can at least compete if they focus thier training). 0.4 and lower of course are as it...PvP FFA.
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Zey Nadar
Gallente Industrial Virtue
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Posted - 2009.12.10 17:39:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Mrs Thaiberian The problem with the high-sec wardecs mechanic is the abuse some do with it.
Not 'some', pretty much 85%.
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j1T4tR4d3AlT
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Posted - 2009.12.10 17:53:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Zey Nadar
Originally by: Mrs Thaiberian The problem with the high-sec wardecs mechanic is the abuse some do with it.
Not 'some', pretty much 85%.
[citation needed]
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition
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Posted - 2009.12.10 18:23:00 -
[144]
Indeed. I'd love to see something to back that statistic up.
I think a lot of the people complaining that the war dec system is broken and abused seem to forget that the people arguing against them have dealt with that self same war dec system and are doing just fine.
Whether they wanted to build a 0.0 empire, or a small but successful mining corp, or an empire based industrial powerhouse, or a Reaver style mob that preys on whomever they can catch... most started out in EXACTLY the same position you are in now, operating under the same mechanics.
The only difference between you, and them, is attitude.
It's harsh, but true. If you think like a sheep, you will be a sheep. If you think like a wolf (or the cunning and evasive fox) you tend to succeed and subsequently start to feel either pity (or contempt) for the sheep.
The mechanics are the same for everyone. It's up to you as to whether you make yourself a fit survivor of those mechanics, or a victim of them.
===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Bodega Cat
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Posted - 2009.12.10 19:13:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Jinayne The problem is not that players blow up other player ships, its more to do with the why. I wouldnt mind so much getting my Retriever trashed if I was intruding in a belt claimed by a aggressive corps for thier mining, I would ask some of the guys in the NPC corp chat if they fancies some battle over the belt.
The real issue with PvP in Hi Sec is that its just some players who want to pop ships for the 'lulz' , they want to fight in unfair combat for no more reason than to aquire killmails and e-peen.
But then see that's just semantics, that has nothing to really do with the game as its designed, and the one we all play, its just the natural state of people as a community. And Its your perception of the said community in question on top of that (not everyone agrees with you, and i've made friends with people that have killed me plenty of times).
You could argue that everything anybody ever does in this game is "for the lulz". Its a game, we all come here to play. Does it make a difference how anybody justifies their actions in the end, and if you are on the receiving end of a grief, could their ever be anything you've ever done that might make you say "i probably deserved it" (please read my other post before you answer this question, and consider if your minerals/fruits ever went into the creation of a gun that actually shot you and think of the lulz)?
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Riedle
Minmatar Raptus Regalitor Black Legion.
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Posted - 2009.12.10 19:41:00 -
[146]
WAR - What is it good for?
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Traidor Disloyal
Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2009.12.10 20:44:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Jinayne I think it would be a reasonable start to basically declare 0.9-0.8 space as new player protection zones with no PvP allowed, however limit the type of ship classes allowed in that zone (say no greater than a mining frig or a entry level industrial, dissallow jetcanning). Say then 0.7 - 0.4 are tech limited PvP FFA zones (limit the tech to something a player with 3 - 6 months training can at least compete if they focus thier training). 0.4 and lower of course are as it...PvP FFA.
I think you should post this great idea of yours on the Features and Ideas Discussion forum. Lets see how this flies. ************************************************* I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it. |
Barakkus
Caelestis Iudicium
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Posted - 2009.12.11 00:44:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Traidor Disloyal
Originally by: Jinayne I think it would be a reasonable start to basically declare 0.9-0.8 space as new player protection zones with no PvP allowed, however limit the type of ship classes allowed in that zone (say no greater than a mining frig or a entry level industrial, dissallow jetcanning). Say then 0.7 - 0.4 are tech limited PvP FFA zones (limit the tech to something a player with 3 - 6 months training can at least compete if they focus thier training). 0.4 and lower of course are as it...PvP FFA.
I think you should post this great idea of yours on the Features and Ideas Discussion forum. Lets see how this flies.
Limiting ship types by sec status is a horrible idea.
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RC Denton
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Posted - 2009.12.11 00:55:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Korizan Edited by: Korizan on 09/12/2009 04:55:31
Originally by: RC Denton
Since a wardec is basically a bribe to Concord to look the other way the target of the wardec should be able to bribe Concord back to their side.
OHHH I LIKE THIS ONE
I wardec a corporation for 4 mil and they turn around and pay concord 8 mil to make it go away for a week the normal run of that wardec.
So 50 mill for an alliance and 100 mill to make it go away.
Actually I was thinking that a bidding war could ensure where the wardec happens, the target pays money to Concord to invalidate it and the agressing corp can spend more to re-instate it. Back and forth until someone runs out of money. This way corps that are financially strong but militarily weak can compete on equal terms. Mercs are hit and miss and many merc corps suck.
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Lithalnas
Amarr Headcrabs
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Posted - 2009.12.11 01:23:00 -
[150]
If we want wardec reform, lets do something to help those evil pirate, how about '1 click' wardecing. By that I mean let us shave the 24 hour vote off, if a corp is a dictatorship let the dictator declare war immediately(with 24 hour wait time).
Second lets give the prey some options, how about the surrender cost be defined by the attacker, If the attacker wants 100 mil isk, then he types that in, when the defender rightclick -> surrender. It directly transfers from defender corp wallet to attacker corp wallet. If you want to destroy a corp on principle, make that value 100 billion or some astronomical number. -------------
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