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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.12.06 05:30:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Akita T on 06/12/2009 05:32:57 ___
We'll start off the list with something different - the list of things you most likely WON'T get funding for, unless you can offer pretty heavy collateral and some decent reputation you might risk losing in case you default :
* anything involving ship-to-ship PvP or wormhole space * anything involving T2 BPOs * almost everything involving 0.0 if you don't have the backing of the local alliance, or if the local alliance isn't stable enough * anything that relies on some condition involving Goonswarm, or, for that matter, most major alliances involved in massive wars (be it as friends or enemies, allies or targets) * anything involving motherships or titans (might merge with one of the two above points)
Now, a list where there is a limited window of opportunity in the (more or less) near future for being able to receive funding :
* lowsec reactions, mainly for racial carbides, fullerides, nanotransistors and such plus corresponding simple reactions * T2 component manufacture * capital ship component manufacture (esp. cargo bays) * freighter manufacture
On the flipside, stuff you will probably receive funding pretty easily at any given time:
* T1 manufacture (especially battleships) * highsec L4 mission-running (as long as you can prove you have the skills anyway) * highsec-only trading - if your trading style does NOT involve hauling, even better (pending audit to confirm past performance)
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Anybody have any objections, questions or additions ?
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Cista2
Jita Direct Sale
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Posted - 2009.12.06 07:02:00 -
[2]
Nice list
Have anyone else noticed the lack of decent offers before and after Dominion? And with people sitting on all their Technetium isk and not knowing what to do with it .... The next good one will fill in 3 minutes. ----------------------------------------
Buy / sell Jidsale shares here |
Ms Brownstone
Interstellar Freight and Retail
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Posted - 2009.12.06 07:19:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 06/12/2009 05:32:57 ___
We'll start off the list with something different - the list of things you most likely WON'T get funding for, unless you can offer pretty heavy collateral and some decent reputation you might risk losing in case you default :
* anything involving ship-to-ship PvP or wormhole space * anything involving T2 BPOs * almost everything involving 0.0 if you don't have the backing of the local alliance, or if the local alliance isn't stable enough * anything that relies on some condition involving Goonswarm, or, for that matter, most major alliances involved in massive wars (be it as friends or enemies, allies or targets) * anything involving motherships or titans (might merge with one of the two above points)
Now, a list where there is a limited window of opportunity in the (more or less) near future for being able to receive funding :
* lowsec reactions, mainly for racial carbides, fullerides, nanotransistors and such plus corresponding simple reactions * T2 component manufacture * capital ship component manufacture (esp. cargo bays) * freighter manufacture
On the flipside, stuff you will probably receive funding pretty easily at any given time:
* T1 manufacture (especially battleships) * highsec L4 mission-running (as long as you can prove you have the skills anyway) * highsec-only trading - if your trading style does NOT involve hauling, even better (pending audit to confirm past performance)
____
Anybody have any objections, questions or additions ?
What is the fundamental difference between ANY of these offerings? They are all HIGH RISK - LOW RETURN investments, there is no security in either one of them. An audit can be performed by cousin Benson who lives in Uganda for all I care, it doesnt make any difference, just a formality that bears no relevance.
I do not understand how daft people can be making these absurd statements: aka: youll lose reputation for doing this or doing that. WHo cares about reputation. You think you get any reputation for loaning money or taking ISK? NO you get reputation for doing something DIFFERENT, for being GOOD at something. Aka starting from scratch and becoming a billionaire in a matter of weeks.
Tsk, reputation, any clown can post cheap offerings that they can finance out of their pocket in an effort to grind reputation. These are the exact case scenarios how gullible fools are lured into scams.
WHo goes to say that even your 3rd party wont run off with collateral, leaving the two of you as fools? Untill CCP decides to implement a REAL system, with REAL contracts, every situation is high risk.
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RAW23
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Posted - 2009.12.06 11:29:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Ms Brownstone
every situation is high risk.
This may be true relative to real world investments but if you don't understand that there are differentiations of risk within this category then you need to think about the issue again.
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Andron Blaxcor
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Posted - 2009.12.06 12:37:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Ms Brownstone What is the fundamental difference between ANY of these offerings?
I sense a thread derailment heading our way...
Anyway, the difference between the activities Akita posted was that she felt one set were more likely to receive a positive reception on MD (and thus funding)than the other set. She made no reference as to why this was the case, this thread is a guideline based purely on observations of past offerings.
Akita, I think the list is pretty accurate and, for the record, I think it broadly reflects the different amounts of business risks involved in an offering. Of course perceived scam potential is down to the presence of audits, collateral and posting attitude etc, but I know this wasn't the point of the thread so I'm not going to bang on about those.
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Dennmoth Ferdier
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Posted - 2009.12.06 12:37:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Dennmoth Ferdier on 06/12/2009 12:37:35
Originally by: Ms Brownstone
What is the fundamental difference between ANY of these offerings? They are all HIGH RISK - LOW RETURN investments, there is no security in either one of them. An audit can be performed by cousin Benson who lives in Uganda for all I care, it doesnt make any difference, just a formality that bears no relevance.
I do not understand how daft people can be making these absurd statements: aka: youll lose reputation for doing this or doing that. WHo cares about reputation. You think you get any reputation for loaning money or taking ISK? NO you get reputation for doing something DIFFERENT, for being GOOD at something. Aka starting from scratch and becoming a billionaire in a matter of weeks.
Tsk, reputation, any clown can post cheap offerings that they can finance out of their pocket in an effort to grind reputation. These are the exact case scenarios how gullible fools are lured into scams.
WHo goes to say that even your 3rd party wont run off with collateral, leaving the two of you as fools? Untill CCP decides to implement a REAL system, with REAL contracts, every situation is high risk.
Not all repuation is good reputation.
Repuatation means you're known for something. Not that you're good at something.
You can be known to be a careless planner with several bad offerings. You might be known for your few succesfull offerings that have delivered what was promised. You might be known to have failed in your offerings. You can be known to have irl often complicate your business.
All of this is reputation. No matter if it's good, bad or something in between, every time you hand out money is a calculated risk where reputation is factored in. If it's not, it's like throwing money on the streets. ------ Dare to challenge me? |
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.12.06 16:14:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Ms Brownstone What is the fundamental difference between ANY of these offerings? They are all HIGH RISK - LOW RETURN investments, there is no security in either one of them.
This thread attempts to discuss the feasibility of the business plan, assuming a random particular individual (who that individual is being irrelevant to the topic - consider him a "later modifier").
That being said, you couldn't POSSIBLY claim T1 battleship manufacture is anywhere near the same "risk class" as officer-fit PvP, now could you ? Because if that is what you're suggesting... remind me again, why am I reading anything you wrote and not flaming you to hell and back?
Quote: Who cares about reputation. You think you get any reputation for loaning money or taking ISK? NO you get reputation for doing something DIFFERENT, for being GOOD at something. Aka starting from scratch and becoming a billionaire in a matter of weeks.
For instance, until just over a month ago, I hadn't ever raised any funds for any bond/IPO, I was never entrusted with any significant amount of public money - yet my VERY FIRST fund-raiser had to be closed ahead of schedule because I received TOO MUCH ISK (compared to what I was comfortable moving). Same thing with Chribba - assuming he would ever (for some obscure reason) want to launch a bond or IPO - how hard do you think it would be for him to raise ISK ? Last time I checked neither one of us ever became a billionaire in a matter of weeks starting from scratch.
There are many kinds of things you can do to build up a "positive" reputation you WOULD mind losing, and potential investors would know you would mind losing.
Quote: WHo goes to say that even your 3rd party wont run off with collateral, leaving the two of you as fools? Untill CCP decides to implement a REAL system, with REAL contracts, every situation is high risk.
Yes, investing in EVE is, by design, a relatively high risk thing... and mostly trust-based (be it on the one you invest in or in the 3rd party that holds the collateral, if any). No need to further compound the chance of failure WITH A LOUSY BUSINESS PLAN. And this is what we are here to discuss - what plans are lousy, what plans are "meh", and what plans are decent.
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We are recruiting | Beginer's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper |
Tylwyth Teg
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.12.06 16:22:00 -
[8]
Good topic Akita......
as for Ms. Brownstone, she appears to be a troll, and as such all feeding is prohibited.
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Thulem
Milestone Institute of Technology
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Posted - 2009.12.06 17:10:00 -
[9]
Akita, I think your list is well-thought-out, but on one point I would like to disagree:
Receive funding pretty easily for: "highsec L4 mission-running (as long as you can prove you have the skills anyway)"
I remember a guy that asked for public cash to finance a mission running ship. He was shot down pretty fast by the question of what his plans are for if his mission ship was shot down.
I think this is a very high risk investment and it's very hard to get public funding for it. No matter how experienced the player is or how good his character's skills are - you can loose your ship anytime due to lag or due to a slight tactical mistake during a hard mission because of real life distraction or others. Don't you think? |
Mme Pinkerton
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.12.06 17:23:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Thulem Don't you think?
well, you obviously shouldn't count on getting a Marauder or T3 getting financed via MD - but I can well imagine that loan requests for buying & fitting a T1 battleship could go through successfuly (especially if the requesting player has been in a player corp for an extended period of time).
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Phoebe Halliwel
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Posted - 2009.12.06 17:24:00 -
[11]
High sec research POS? Either the settup of, shares in or for the purchase of BPOs; I'm thinking of LoW and Brock Nelson's as examples, so BPO research and copying to be specific. These probably have a higher rate of success where the person launching the offering has the equipment already set up and some experience running a POS.
Niche services - say, sales forums type services, rarely ask for settup capital but do occasionally offer company shares if successful. Can't think of a recent example but pretty sure there have been some succesful examples of this.
Both of these appear to be something a fairly well established player might attempt offerings on though. Think that's a distinction worth making; people with documented experience and a successful record of offerings, or running an in game business will always be given more leeway than a new starter who needs to prove slightly more. Don't think a lot of new offerer's really understand that, and repeated reference to phrases like "reputation" and "trust" sometimes cloud the issue, especially as it's often tied to forum posting habits.
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Aerilis
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Posted - 2009.12.06 18:28:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Ms Brownstone NO you get reputation for doing something DIFFERENT, for being GOOD at something. Aka starting from scratch and becoming a billionaire in a matter of weeks.
And who do we know around here who has done that...
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Kaaii
Caldari KaaiiNet Holding Executor Corp
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Posted - 2009.12.06 19:23:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Aerilis
Originally by: Ms Brownstone NO you get reputation for doing something DIFFERENT, for being GOOD at something. Aka starting from scratch and becoming a billionaire in a matter of weeks.
And who do we know around here who has done that...
Me.....
Just never posted about it...
According to Oveur, existing LSAA's already anchored will stay there. kieron Director of Community Relations,
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Turiel Demon
Minmatar Blue Republic
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Posted - 2009.12.06 19:51:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Kaaii
Originally by: Aerilis
Originally by: Ms Brownstone NO you get reputation for doing something DIFFERENT, for being GOOD at something. Aka starting from scratch and becoming a billionaire in a matter of weeks.
And who do we know around here who has done that...
Me.....
Just never posted about it...
Hence your astonishing reputation
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Kalrand
Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.12.06 19:52:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Akita T
* anything that relies on some condition involving Goonswarm, or, for that matter, most major alliances involved in massive wars (be it as friends or enemies, allies or targets)
There's only about three of us that ever come here. Something tells me you're not going to get a ton of goon requests here.
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cosmoray
Bella Vista Holdings Corp
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Posted - 2009.12.06 20:37:00 -
[16]
I think some of the problems with raising money here is that new players think they should get cash without any effort. Three week old players don't really have the skills to use Billions of ISK unless they are traders and I don't see that many skilled newbs.
I was present on MD for 9 months before I came for capital, and I had also worked in my chosen production businesses for 1.5 years.
That aside, the best way for new players (new to MD) to get capital is to have:
1. Have a good business plan 2. get an audit (just so we can assess the skills and prove your assets) 3. Answer questions (all of them) without get surly 4. Get assets locked down by known third party (best approach for BPO based business)
There are some areas of investment which have proved a disaster in MD: (failure = loss of investors capital via SCAM or Failure)
1. Any Low sec venture (worst investment with over 90% failure) 2. 0.0 3. Goonswarm 4. New players without controls (audit/lockdown) 5. banks
Riskier investments (not total failure - poor returns): 1. T2 BPO's 2. Datacore farming
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.12.06 21:03:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Kalrand
Originally by: Akita T * anything that relies on some condition involving Goonswarm, or, for that matter, most major alliances involved in massive wars (be it as friends or enemies, allies or targets)
There's only about three of us that ever come here. Something tells me you're not going to get a ton of goon requests here
I was talking about so-called "business plans" like the one with the guy that tried to sell front-row tickets for an alleged "scamming the Goonfleet" activity... or of any plans which might involve 3rd parties doing anything in locations controlled or contested by any major alliance (I was using Goonfleet merely as example)... you know, that sort of thing. Try not to read between the lines too much in the future.
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Sophie Daigneau
CAPITAL Assistance in Destruction Society GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.12.06 21:37:00 -
[18]
I've broken most of these rules, so I dunno how accurate that list really is.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.12.06 21:45:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Akita T on 06/12/2009 21:49:17
Originally by: Sophie Daigneau I've broken most of these rules, so I dunno how accurate that list really is.
Well... "most likely won't [...] unless", "limited opportunity [...] able to", "probably [...] pretty easy"... so, yeah... They're not rules, more like guidelines
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We are recruiting | Beginer's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper |
Razorlips
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Posted - 2009.12.06 22:22:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Razorlips on 06/12/2009 22:22:32
t2 ships&comps are the things to have atm
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Brother Thantos
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Posted - 2009.12.07 04:21:00 -
[21]
Ill take the advice from the Post and say GOOOOOOOOOOOONSwarm, you'all Blob Solitude and have never bought a single Combat Booster From Me. I am the Hardest Working Drug Dealer in the game you big babies, Hit me for for synth exile and I do have all the other boosters as well be we all know that Synth makes you just a little more invinciable without the side effects. Think Exile and I have Bigger Plans If you want to invest.
BTXI
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Dretzle Omega
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.12.07 14:36:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Brother Thantos Ill take the advice from the Post and say GOOOOOOOOOOOONSwarm, you'all Blob Solitude and have never bought a single Combat Booster From Me. I am the Hardest Working Drug Dealer in the game you big babies, Hit me for for synth exile and I do have all the other boosters as well be we all know that Synth makes you just a little more invinciable without the side effects. Think Exile and I have Bigger Plans If you want to invest.
BTXI
Two words: Huh?
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Dex Nederland
Caldari Lai Dai Infinity Systems
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Posted - 2009.12.07 14:53:00 -
[23]
Thank you for the well thought out list; it makes sense.
A dozen or so 6-month to 1-year old pilots pooling funds into a corporation can likely achieve the funding for the "good" projects you listed and actually have the people and skills to achieve it. My corporation is working towards that goal.
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Kalrand
Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.12.07 14:58:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Brother Thantos Ill take the advice from the Post and say GOOOOOOOOOOOONSwarm, you'all Blob Solitude and have never bought a single Combat Booster From Me. I am the Hardest Working Drug Dealer in the game you big babies, Hit me for for synth exile and I do have all the other boosters as well be we all know that Synth makes you just a little more invinciable without the side effects. Think Exile and I have Bigger Plans If you want to invest.
BTXI
wat?
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Selene D'Celeste
Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six
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Posted - 2009.12.07 23:47:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Sophie Daigneau I've broken most of these rules, so I dunno how accurate that list really is.
There are exceptions to every rule, as we all well know. =P
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Manu Hermanus
FaDoyToy
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Posted - 2009.12.08 02:38:00 -
[26]
I was thinking of doing an investment thing, but I just really cba to do it. You're posting again!? Has it really been 5 mins?
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Krans Hopeson
Hypercube Ventures
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Posted - 2009.12.08 15:33:00 -
[27]
If I was to (hypothetically) approach MD looking for a modest loan to buy an Orca to support my mining operation, how would that (hypothetically) be viewed?
...just before I put a lot of effort into preparing an investment portfolio. -- "The only stupid question is the one you don't ask." |
Kalrand
Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.12.08 15:43:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Krans Hopeson If I was to (hypothetically) approach MD looking for a modest loan to buy an Orca to support my mining operation, how would that (hypothetically) be viewed?
...just before I put a lot of effort into preparing an investment portfolio.
If you had something to use as collateral, then you'd be fine. But most people looking for an orca don't have a battleship BPO sitting around somewhere.
Its about 350 Million isk. In the scheme of things thats not terribly huge. If you can show that you're in an active corp, have the skills to fly it, and show that you do a ton of mining, I can see you getting that loan. Just be prepared to show some people your full API.
Your character is also from 2005, and has almost no posting history. You'll need to be able to explain that.
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Breaker77
Gallente Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2009.12.08 16:08:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Krans Hopeson If I was to (hypothetically) approach MD looking for a modest loan to buy an Orca to support my mining operation, how would that (hypothetically) be viewed?
...just before I put a lot of effort into preparing an investment portfolio.
Very doable with collateral, or if you are indeed a miner perhaps you could mine enough minerals to cover the cost and have someone build it to order plus some ISK for their time. There are lots of ads for those in the sell forums and I can do that as well.
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Manu Hermanus
FaDoyToy
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Posted - 2009.12.08 16:27:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Kalrand
Originally by: Krans Hopeson If I was to (hypothetically) approach MD looking for a modest loan to buy an Orca to support my mining operation, how would that (hypothetically) be viewed?
...just before I put a lot of effort into preparing an investment portfolio.
If you had something to use as collateral, then you'd be fine. But most people looking for an orca don't have a battleship BPO sitting around somewhere.
Its about 350 Million isk. In the scheme of things thats not terribly huge. If you can show that you're in an active corp, have the skills to fly it, and show that you do a ton of mining, I can see you getting that loan. Just be prepared to show some people your full API.
Your character is also from 2005, and has almost no posting history. You'll need to be able to explain that.
I'd give a loan for an orca for a battleship blueprint You're posting again!? Has it really been 5 mins?
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