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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 36 post(s) |
Vivian Azure
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Posted - 2009.11.10 14:21:00 -
[2851]
Originally by: Kepakh Edited by: Kepakh on 10/11/2009 13:54:08
Originally by: Deva Blackfire IMO the best way to improve system would be giving even more anomalies. Usually one anomaly can keep one person occupied for 30-60 minutes. If its permanent anomaly - you can assume it keeps one person busy. So 10 perma anomalies = 10 people served. Now i know it cant keep 100 people at once but i think everyone is missiong one point. Its 100 people during the day not 100 people at once. In reality those 10 anomalies will easily serve 50 people. Add plexes and other crap (crap as in = i dont care about it, maybe s1 else likes doing magneto/radar sites or mining) and you up it a bit again.
1 anomaly = 23*7 accessability, that's 690 hours per month. Max upgraded system with 10 anomalies and yield of 25M per hour is 172B ISK worth. Let's assume you will utilize 1/4 at 10% tax, that is 4.3B income in taxes.
Did I miss something? Do you still want better rewards for anomalies? Do you still want to have more anomalies at 1M upkeep lately proposed by Chronotis?
Now imagine you run bots there...
They don't like the idea of anomalies, plexes or wormholes, because they can't run bots in them, like they do run their bots in the belts. That's why they want the bounties for belt-rats being doubled or tripled instead of any other possible upgrades.
This patch works against Atlas and Goons the most, as they have the least active members compared to the size of their territory. And I'm talking active members here, not total alliance members. The Patch however will require you to actively do something. And that's the reason why they're against the announced mechanics. I do not even wonder about that, as it's blatantly obvious.
Your numbers there don't even take belt-rats and possible complexes into account, so I think we can round this one up to some 200 billion ISK for a fully upgraded System. So the systems do pay for themselves 50-fold, with the tweaked numbers, where a cynojammed system with a jumpbridge costs 1.305 billion a month.
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Andrew Gaspurr
Caldari Abrucco Cold Fusion.
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Posted - 2009.11.10 14:23:00 -
[2852]
Originally by: Hertford What incentives are CCP adding in the proposed changes for empire dwellers to consider or commit to moving from empire and living in 0.0?
Hi, itÆs me again. That unknown guy from a virtually unknown corp (at least in 00). Remember, we Empire corps were supposed to be made happy about joining you out there in 00? Fine!
So what did CCP provide us with in order to hit the trail? Actually (after having read more and more pages in this thread) I think they had a pretty nanve approach in that they just wanted ôus EmpireÆlersö to have fun elsewhere than in boring HighSec. I remember one of the first preview videos of EVE where a female voice said something about ôtaking up a seat among the godsö. CCP tried to drill this further down for Empire inhabitants, I think. CCP wanted to make those things easy for us in 00 that those people who already live there for years find boring and ôcrappyö. I really mean it, no irony (well, hardly). They think that waves of settlers arriving find it funny and fulfilling to mine the lower 00 ores, to ratt among the Gods û if only frigates and BC û and so develop a feeling of belonging there and sitting at one table with (in)famous alliances that seem to have existed there forever. Thus, CCP wanted to implement a virtual module called the ôLarge 00-Atmosphere Transporterö and nail it on each and every jumpgate in zerozero.
Ah, I just got a bit ironic so forgive me. Like I said, I think they really mean it and they mean it for good.
Existing in 00 means building up resources, because sooner or later someone will come looking whoÆs the new majordomo next door. This is where the isk is burnt that those newcomers must heap up in order to survive. So far, so good, so acceptable, so funny (in terms of game fun). Existing in 00 as I understand it by reading your comments, forces one to make isk. ôForcesö. In Empire one can get the impression that the economy somehow exists around oneself. In 00 I think you greatly shape the economy and are urgently struggling to keep it up. ThatÆs the essence I gathered from this threadmonster and thatÆs perfectly acceptable of course. Now with Dominion the struggle seems to increase sharply because isk have to go into an anonymous automated CCP blackbox.
The incentives CCP tries to offer fall short, when it comes to that upkeep system (its costs specifically), because in its starter position, a newly founded alliance in 00 needs its isk elsewhere. Of course there are costs purely associated to SOV, but on the other hand we are speaking of ôcrappyö 00. I cannot say if a non-SOV alliance can sustain itself in low quality 00 and rely on you as experts. In the long run, I assume, SOV is needed to secure oneÆs holdings.
I would strongly vote for a staged upkeep system that is based on the number of star systems you claim. I could well imagine a parallel to feudal times (like a few of you did), where an overlord could not possibly rule all his domains (dominions) and was forced to give some territory to his tenants. This ôland grantö however would need those afore mentioned Treaties in order to generate resources for the overlord and I absolutely fail to understand why this feature was not brought into an expansion that is called ôDominionö and is supposed to somewhat revitalize the universe map.
Andrew Gaspurr
P.S.: HereÆs just some keywords for ChribbaÆs eve-search: B**S** , LVL 4 , isk/h , grief , exodus , goons , atlas , agree
"Quotes in forum signatures are unnecessary and annoying." -(P. Body) |
Rage Trade
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Posted - 2009.11.10 14:30:00 -
[2853]
Everyone is talking about lvl4s here ratting there ... has anyone mentioned about the possible market effects?
Ice products market is going to disappear because nothing is going to replace the consuption of thousands of POS that are going to be useless.
POS market and pos modules, faction or not, market is going to tank see above.
Mineral market is probably going to collapse, capital ships are a big mineral sink and what's going to be the incentive to use them? No more hundreds of poses to shoot only a couple of structures you take a 200 man BS fleet(now with a reduced risk because there is no more DDD) to kill so I think capitals will be useless. Possibly more people doing lvl 4s and refining the mods and selling the mins.
Faction mods market is probably going to colapse, lots of addiotional sites to run and so more modes to collect and sell.
... etc etc.
Very thought out expansion . Its a lose lose situation for empire and 0.0 dwelers.
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Mr McAlt
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Posted - 2009.11.10 14:40:00 -
[2854]
Edited by: Mr McAlt on 10/11/2009 14:42:35
Quick question about the Grav Sites that can be got with the upgrades...
You said that the Grav sites obtained with the new sov upgrades will be 'different'.
It has also been said you want to reduce the dependence on high-end moons.
Putting 1 and 1 together, will the new grav sites have harvestable moon materials?
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Arela Xen
Gallente Evoke. Ev0ke
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Posted - 2009.11.10 14:42:00 -
[2855]
No, we don¦t want afk empires.
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Morphisat
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2009.11.10 14:43:00 -
[2856]
Originally by: Rage Trade Everyone is talking about lvl4s here ratting there ... has anyone mentioned about the possible market effects?
<snip>
Very thought out expansion . Its a lose lose situation for empire and 0.0 dwelers.
In my of my 1st responses earlier in the thread, I mentioned that all of these changes will effect everyone in Eve. Not just the 0.0 people. Either directly or indirectly in the ways you mentioned. That's why this whole thing seems to be poorly thought out by CCP (imho).
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Adam Ridgway
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.11.10 14:44:00 -
[2857]
Originally by: fuze
Create real incentives for carebears to be in 0.0 for gathering resources including moongold. (eg. deplete current moons graduately and re-introduce comets instead, lol comet magnets) Give both PvP'ers and carebears (lol) the tools to support the need of eachother. (eg. Rental contracts, access to resources etc.)
This would be the best solution to two of the main problems: - Awfull income for the individual. - Too much passive income for alliances.
Also it would make easier: - Preventing creation of cartels by alliances. - Making it way easier than current mess to balance T2 production.
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Andrew Gaspurr
Caldari Abrucco Cold Fusion.
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Posted - 2009.11.10 14:44:00 -
[2858]
Originally by: Rage Trade Everyone is talking about lvl4s here ratting there ... has anyone mentioned about the possible market effects?
Ice products market is going to disappear because nothing is going to replace the consuption of thousands of POS that are going to be useless. (...) Faction mods market is probably going to colapse, lots of addiotional sites to run and so more modes to collect and sell.
The effects on the market have been addressed before I think. If any new alliances show up in 00 after Dominion I find it quite likely that they will need an intact market of ice products. The way I understand it ice products and the need for them will not be eliminated in the game. Also, I think it's quite possible that the faction market will redirect itself within 00 when those new folks arrive, because there will be new dealings, new friendships and possibly shorter or less harassed space lanes to transport that stuff. Young alliances might not have the means to run each and every high class site so they'll gladly take whatever faction loot suits them. That is my guess about it. "Quotes in forum signatures are unnecessary and annoying." -(P. Body) |
Rhomega
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Posted - 2009.11.10 14:50:00 -
[2859]
Having the costs increased for upkeep "exponentially" untill they reach a certain amount related to the number of systems that are controlled seems an excellent idea. After all, there should be a discount for 1 "capital" system, if only to make sure that if the **** hits teh fan there is something cheap to fall back to. (Whether or not these should be linked to the Sov lvl and whether or not that should make the costs increase or not I'll leave to smarter people then me)
All in all that should be very very EZ te code, and lets face it, all the whine here won't do **** at this point, it's too late to call it off, but a small suggestion (I quoted a guy above me) like this is very possible to implement at this late date with a very large effect.
I'd also like to add that I hope that upgrades will keep people more centered around an area, while increasing their profits without shooting eachother in the foot.
I for one think Dominion is gonna be a thrill, and I know that "balance" is soon to follow, whatever doomsayers might say.
OT; GREAT thread this is :D The Bold and the Beautiful aint got **** on this stuff Kind of addicting really
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Sky Marshal
IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.11.10 14:58:00 -
[2860]
Edited by: Sky Marshal on 10/11/2009 14:59:26
Originally by: Kepakh Max upgraded system with 10 anomalies and yield of 25M per hour is 172B ISK worth. Let's assume you will utilize 1/4 at 10% tax, that is 4.3B income in taxes.
Did I miss something? Do you still want better rewards for anomalies? Do you still want to have more anomalies at 1M upkeep lately proposed by Chronotis?
Now imagine you run bots there...
You missed this : A L4 Mission give an income of 52M per hour.
And your maths supposes that the anomalies will be used at all time... _______ Local is fine, period.
CCP devs, you nerfed shield resists by 8.3% but armor by 7.1% (The old Explo/EM "10 points" Nerf). When will you correct this inconsistency ? |
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Halaxi
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.10 14:58:00 -
[2861]
CCP, I know it can sometimes be a pain to reply in these forums, but there have been a fair number of excelent points made here since your last reply. Could you possibly reply before the EvE-O site gets taken down for maintenance?
Hal.
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Deva Blackfire
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2009.11.10 15:10:00 -
[2862]
Originally by: Sky Marshal Edited by: Sky Marshal on 10/11/2009 14:59:26
Originally by: Kepakh Max upgraded system with 10 anomalies and yield of 25M per hour is 172B ISK worth. Let's assume you will utilize 1/4 at 10% tax, that is 4.3B income in taxes.
Did I miss something? Do you still want better rewards for anomalies? Do you still want to have more anomalies at 1M upkeep lately proposed by Chronotis?
Now imagine you run bots there...
You missed this : A L4 Mission give an income of 52M per hour.
And your maths supposes that the anomalies will be used at all time...
No. His maths suppose that anomalies will be used 25% of the time. Even if you drop to 12,5% it will still be enough to pay for the system by system tax alone. 12,5% is just 3 hours per day of farming all anomalies in system (3 hours x 10 anomalies).
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Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2009.11.10 15:12:00 -
[2863]
Originally by: Hertford Thank you for, what appears to me to be, a pretty reasonable response. Now, I can agree there's currently players not in 0.0 who want to move to 0.0, and that the current powerblocs will be too powerful for the newcomers to establish themselves, and that Dominion will result in the same regions being claimed by the current crop of alliances, just in a more skeletal manner.
* No sov means no automatic notification that there's someone putting up a tower in the wastelands between alliances. You need to check every single system to figure out if it's just a few lone ninja-ratters or someone putting up house.
* How much of a response are you going to get telling your minions there's a tower up in the wastelands (you might call it 'buffer zone', but they'll be doing mental translations so just start calling it the wastelands), so they should drop their ratting/plexing/hacking/wormholing/carrier-spinning and get out there to shoot at a tower for a couple hours. Good luck on the 50th time.
* Large areas with no sov is an invitation.
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Deva Blackfire
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2009.11.10 15:21:00 -
[2864]
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
* No sov means no automatic notification that there's someone putting up a tower in the wastelands between alliances. You need to check every single system to figure out if it's just a few lone ninja-ratters or someone putting up house.
Sov prices got dropped to mere 30mil/month (or was it 60 and 30 for hub?). So its WAY easier to sov-up whole 0.0.
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fuze
Gallente Quam Singulari Cult of War
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Posted - 2009.11.10 15:27:00 -
[2865]
Originally by: Arela Xen No, we don¦t want afk empires.
Agreed. But we don't want not Empires by proxy either. Since Goons (lol goons) already told that they will move into NPC stations and only keep up the economically interesting systems. Any other large alliance with half a brain will do this as well. The rest won't bother for scraps that much.
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Sky Marshal
IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.11.10 15:30:00 -
[2866]
Edited by: Sky Marshal on 10/11/2009 15:31:30
Originally by: Deva Blackfire No. His maths suppose that anomalies will be used 25% of the time. Even if you drop to 12,5% it will still be enough to pay for the system by system tax alone. 12,5% is just 3 hours per day of farming all anomalies in system (3 hours x 10 anomalies).
All the time of the 25% a day, my bad ^^
It is still 6 hours for 10 people per system, with an upgrade who can disable himself if the activity is not constant.
Same if we can reduce to 3 hours of work per system... As a mission give 2X guaranted income than an anomaly with no risks and as it don't have any obligation of attendance, the choice is easy. _______ Local is fine, period.
CCP devs, you nerfed shield resists by 8.3% but armor by 7.1% (The old Explo/EM "10 points" Nerf). When will you correct this inconsistency ? |
Deva Blackfire
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2009.11.10 15:34:00 -
[2867]
Originally by: Sky Marshal
Originally by: Deva Blackfire No. His maths suppose that anomalies will be used 25% of the time. Even if you drop to 12,5% it will still be enough to pay for the system by system tax alone. 12,5% is just 3 hours per day of farming all anomalies in system (3 hours x 10 anomalies).
All the time of the 25% a day, my bad ^^
It is still 6 hours for 10 people per system, with an upgrade who can disable himself if the activity is not constant.
As a mission give 2X guaranted income than an anomaly with no risks and as it don't have any obligation of attendance, the choice is easy, same if we can reduce to 3 hours of work per system...
Even if it took 5 minutes to pay itself you would be whining TBFH. Some people have just built-in whine generators. Fact is: its quite cheap. Another fact is: its better than it ever was.
Also: it is about paying for full defended system with bridges and jammers. If you want to pay for sov+hub system (90mil/month) then: 10 anomalies give 250mil/hour. To pay 90mil ou need to farm them 90/250 = 21 minutes during whole month. If you divide it by 30 days you need to farm said anomalies LESS THAN A MINUTE per day. Happy?
And if you really want jammer/bridge then its your problem. They are not industry/isk making elements and are not necessary.
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Harlon Cross
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.11.10 15:40:00 -
[2868]
***BREAKING NEWS***
Linkage
Definitely some good insight on the upcoming changes there.
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Marlona Sky
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.11.10 15:48:00 -
[2869]
Originally by: Harlon Cross ***BREAKING NEWS***
Linkage
Definitely some good insight on the upcoming changes there.
Pretty much that tbfh. And my sig!
Why are goons crying the most over the new sovereignty changes?
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.11.10 15:49:00 -
[2870]
Edited by: Tippia on 10/11/2009 15:51:25
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Sky Marshal
Originally by: Kepakh Max upgraded system with 10 anomalies and yield of 25M per hour is 172B ISK worth. Let's assume you will utilize 1/4 at 10% tax, that is 4.3B income in taxes.
Did I miss something? Do you still want better rewards for anomalies? Do you still want to have more anomalies at 1M upkeep lately proposed by Chronotis?
Now imagine you run bots there...
You missed this : A L4 Mission give an income of 52M per hour.
And your maths supposes that the anomalies will be used at all time...
No. His maths suppose that anomalies will be used 25% of the time. Even if you drop to 12,5% it will still be enough to pay for the system by system tax alone. 12,5% is just 3 hours per day of farming all anomalies in system (3 hours x 10 anomalies).
Above all, his maths supposes that the income will go towards maintaining the system, which isn't what the complaint is about.
It also assumes an even distribution of people online, which is not even remotely realistic, which is another thing the actual complaint is about.
Either way, it's completely off the mark and hardly relevant at all to the main criticism of the proposed changes. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
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Kernok
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Posted - 2009.11.10 16:03:00 -
[2871]
Originally by: Static Kinetics Edited by: Static Kinetics on 09/11/2009 23:41:06 Edited by: Static Kinetics on 09/11/2009 23:39:59
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Pointfive There is a limit and that limit is 10. That limit is a lot less than level 4's which is infinity. Also the vast majority of level 4s are run in empire. The low sec and nullsec level 4s are not attracting the hordes of people to come do those. Because slightly increased gain for infinitely increased risk does not work. Giving the same reward for even more risk is just insulting.
If you find high sec so much better, just live there instead of 0.0
There is no point comparing those two since they are 2 completely different things nor there is a need to turn one into another.
why are u such a ****ing ******, ccp said dominion would cause a mass exodus to 0.0, people here are saying that wont work cuz the upgrades are ****, and costly. your on here telling ppl to go to highsec if they dont like it? do you not see a conflict with your statement and with what ccp has said it is trying to accomplish? do u think exodus part two, 0.0 players moving to highsec, is what ccp wants to see? because they have stated otherwise. why are you even posting here?
as a sidenote, vivian azure, you too are a ****ing ******, the world wars werent very big huh? the gulf war wasnt about resources huh? shut the **** up and quit posting, do you think throwing an emoticon after everything stupid you say makes it any less stupid?
and then theres the mutant, another person for the changes, another lvl 4 carebear that has never been to 0.0, stating lvl 4 missions (which are so abundant in 0.0) pay more than they do in highsec, you too, are an idiot.
* Warned for personal attacks - CCP Ildoge
CCP Ildoge since your here reading this could you please answer a few questions?
YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.
in what way is this going to encourage an exodus to 0.0?
how will this patch help to achieve emergent gameplay?
where is the "synergy" in this? |
Wingshard
Halcyon Systems Federation of Active Commonwealth Terrorists
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Posted - 2009.11.10 16:08:00 -
[2872]
since ccp obviously lost interest in their failthread i would point out a problem from arround page 38.
lets say we get the anomalys working "as intented".
for now they dont vanish aslong as a single player is in them, same for exploration, ...
so what to do once a merccorp *same example as used before* decides to place cloaker in every anomaly? even a single person with altchars could completely and AFK disrupt the whole process of a system.
so would you prefer AFK empires that "ninjas" can stil rogue exploit or having your own system constantly disabled by an AFK griefer? *1 person + multible accounts alone could have massive influence that way*
this is a serious matter to be addressed exspecial with the cloaking skill having eve less requirements.
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2009.11.10 16:09:00 -
[2873]
Originally by: Sky Marshal ... As a mission give 2X guaranted income than an anomaly with no risks and as it don't have any obligation of attendance, the choice is easy.
As a trader I make 20x times more than any L4 grinder. The choice is easy.
Please do the whine for L4 reward increase too when you are at whine marthon already.
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2009.11.10 16:15:00 -
[2874]
Originally by: Tippia Above all, his maths supposes that the income will go towards maintaining the system, which isn't what the complaint is about. It also assumes an even distribution of people online, which is not even remotely realistic, which is another thing the actual complaint is about.
Either way, it's completely off the mark and hardly relevant at all to the main criticism of the proposed changes.
Well, if you can't count nor you understand those numbers, it is indeed 'completely off the mark' and no one can help it.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.11.10 16:16:00 -
[2875]
Originally by: Kepakh Well, if you can't count nor you understand those numbers, it is indeed 'completely off the mark' and no one can help it.
I take it you don't understand why they're irrelevant, then? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Dante Edmundo
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Posted - 2009.11.10 16:21:00 -
[2876]
Edited by: Dante Edmundo on 10/11/2009 16:21:48
**** REPOSTED *** PLEASE SIGN IF YOU AGREE
Gnulpie writes: "POSTPONE THE SOV CHANGES!
The expansion without the sov changes will be great already: new planetary graphics, new browser, new fleet organisation, new corp management tools, new eden (aka cosmos) web-interface, changes to high end moons, supercap changes, faction ship changes, etc."
I agree Gnulpie. I suggest CCP release everything except the SOV changes for the time being. There is a lot of good content that has received overall positive feedback (except perhaps the Titan nerf). There are just too many unknowns right now and too many good points brought up in this EPIC threadnaught - for CCP just to mindlessly go for the Dec 2nd deadline. Exodus Part Duex anyone?
Why rush it? The game isn't going to disappear - and I think from reading this thread, most alliances will be content with the status quo until the SOV changes can be polished more.
DELAY SOV CCP GODS - BUT RELEASE THE REST OF DOMINION. IT IS SUFFICIENT.
And then I suggest work with alliance player leadership who seem passionate about making null-sec a better place - and I would say almost ALL OF THEM AGREED WITH YOUR GOALS CCP but few of them have agreed with your current methods.
I don't think you or the players will lose much by just holding back on the SOV changes.
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LiMu Bai
Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.11.10 16:31:00 -
[2877]
Edited by: LiMu Bai on 10/11/2009 16:31:42 Edited by: LiMu Bai on 10/11/2009 16:31:16
Originally by: Dante Edmundo Edited by: Dante Edmundo on 10/11/2009 16:21:48
**** REPOSTED *** PLEASE SIGN IF YOU AGREE
Gnulpie writes: "POSTPONE THE SOV CHANGES!
The expansion without the sov changes will be great already: new planetary graphics, new browser, new fleet organisation, new corp management tools, new eden (aka cosmos) web-interface, changes to high end moons, supercap changes, faction ship changes, etc."
I agree. Screw the ****ty sov revamp.
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Graalum
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.10 16:35:00 -
[2878]
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Itzena YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.
Originally by: Kepakh What effort? Jumping through gate in a shuttle? Should I be paid for that? 1 hour of jumping through 0.0 gates making me +45M? It is indeed increased risk to move around 0.0 as well as logistical challenge.
this is a horrifyingly dumb argument
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2009.11.10 16:38:00 -
[2879]
Edited by: Kepakh on 10/11/2009 16:39:53
Originally by: Graalum this is a horrifyingly dumb argument
Yes, it is as dumb as the question replying to because that is what it basicaly says. |
Tamahra
Gallente Danke fuer den Fisch
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Posted - 2009.11.10 16:42:00 -
[2880]
Originally by: Dante Edmundo
**** REPOSTED *** PLEASE SIGN IF YOU AGREE
Gnulpie writes: "POSTPONE THE SOV CHANGES!
The expansion without the sov changes will be great already: new planetary graphics, new browser, new fleet organisation, new corp management tools, new eden (aka cosmos) web-interface, changes to high end moons, supercap changes, faction ship changes, etc."
I agree. Screw the ****ty sov revamp.
Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. StevieSG |
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