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Jugon
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Posted - 2009.11.09 22:58:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Destras you honestly want fangs for miners?
if youll look at my stats for my latest killmail on battleclinic you will see that i indeed already have fangs when i mine. its called my drones, yes i killed a cruiser with my hulk, that cruiser had a manticore partner. killed one and hte other slipped away before i got him warp jammed. please stop this nonsense, miners need other things apart from what you foolishly believe we need.
Checked KB , and Yes a T1 Cruiser with T1 Fittings is easy to kill with a Hulk and T2 Drones. At least from my viewpoint, most of this topic doesn't come from Fighting T1 ships with junk fittings. But rather T2 Ships , or Well Fitted T1 Ships.
That was also a High Sec Kill... Most of the conversation here (and in other threads) for increasing mining ships defenses is directly related to Low Sec and 0 Sec , where it is highly unlikely that you will find Ships like that cruiser.
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Thera Romana
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Posted - 2009.11.10 02:13:00 -
[32]
To me mining barges just dont make sense on thier layout.
its semi BS size the slots don't match
and why can't mining barges get launcher or, get thier drone bandwidth increased or a little of both.
Give the mining barges 6 high slots, 3 launcher points(so can't be used for mining lasers) and 125 mbit of drone bandwidth.
6 mids and 2 lows. no bonus's for combat, you could give a drone speed and HP bonus maybe. This setup would allow for more of a BS like tank.
The current sets ups can only be used strictly in the safest of areas and promotes AFK mining(not saying afk mining is bad but some would like to mine else where.
Three or 4 hulks should not have to run like scared little rabbits everytime a HAC jumps in system, cause they can be killed with such ease.
Mining barges are a single volley for my alts SB.
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Nian Banks
Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir
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Posted - 2009.11.10 03:26:00 -
[33]
I don't want to shoot things with my mining ships, I just want to be given the power grid to fit a real tank.
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Wiley Peterson
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Posted - 2009.11.10 04:36:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Wiley Peterson on 10/11/2009 04:36:21 Who said you have to solo mine? Either mine with a corp that can protect you or do something else. You can adjust your current fit to increase your survivability, but you won't because it will decrease your mining yield. You want to have your cake and eat it to. I don't understand your logic at all. You complain that mining is boring, and then demand changes to the game that you pay for so you can continue said boring activity.
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Pesets
The Hunt Club
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Posted - 2009.11.10 10:25:00 -
[35]
Not a miner, but...
Having a combat gang dying of boredom next to miner gang dying of boredom won't really add much excitement for either party. And drastically decreasing mining yield, for a (still unlikely) chance you'll live to see the reinforcements, is only a valid option on paper.
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Pantorus Necraliss
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Posted - 2009.11.10 11:57:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Wiley Peterson Who said you have to solo mine? Either mine with a corp that can protect you or do something else. You can adjust your current fit to increase your survivability, but you won't because it will decrease your mining yield. You want to have your cake and eat it to. I don't understand your logic at all. You complain that mining is boring, and then demand changes to the game that you pay for so you can continue said boring activity.
Guy, you can do solo-ratting every time, for mining in null sec you simply CAN'T do it. If CCP create a new mining ship, same yield as the retriver but at least with the same tanking as a BC I'll be the most happy in the world...
Why should simply mining requiert to be in fleet ?!? To have the best yield ever, I'm agree. But only to tank rats ??? WTF !!!
Mining activity should not absolutly meens that you have to be in a fleet to do it, it's ridiculous ! Can't mine poor common roids cause you're alone for moment (other are offline, in pvp,...) it's simply stupid I think...
Make the mining more funny is an another thing, high sec miners may not all be interessed but low/null sec miners (not numerous for moment cause of tanking problem) certainly more ^^
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Zekks MarKeys
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Posted - 2009.11.10 14:13:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Wiley Peterson Edited by: Wiley Peterson on 10/11/2009 04:36:21 Who said you have to solo mine? Either mine with a corp that can protect you or do something else. You can adjust your current fit to increase your survivability, but you won't because it will decrease your mining yield. You want to have your cake and eat it to. I don't understand your logic at all. You complain that mining is boring, and then demand changes to the game that you pay for so you can continue said boring activity.
mine with a corp that can protect us? so now we have to pay someone to "rent their null sec" then pay someone to "stand guard over us"? are you smokin crack? this is a social game. which means miners can group with other miners. pvper can group with each other.
as mentioned previously, a retriever yield or even 4 mining turrets and 2 high slots (for cloak maybe or for small armor repper to patch up drones. several mids for scanners, jammer, point, web..tank. anything... a few lows to increase shield recharge or whatever. we arent asking for alot, just a ship that can stand null sec rats and the occasional pvper. give something with ogre II bandwidth. give those drones a bonus. maybe 5% damage bonus per level (1/2 a domi). give a descent tank. not asking for a lot. the hulk has the tank of a destroyer, the speed of a bs and the offense of the roid it mines. c'mon. we have enough combat ships out there. adjust the rocket and ham bonus and start making kewl ships like bs style miners, ewar cruisers and bs's, hac bs's and bc's (not command). hell, you have hac bs'es in game, just finish them. i mean if a death star can spit out a 3 million point ddd and split a dread in 1/2 with a magical instapop, why the hell cant we have a mining bs? jesus christ people. let us mine. make hac bs's so we can play hard ball too. wont instapop a dread, but it would be fun.
a 4 turret, large tank ship wouldnt hurt anyone. an alt of an old toon.. |
Sith LordX
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Posted - 2009.11.10 14:16:00 -
[38]
Removing insurance can not remove the fun from it, because a brutix does 1000 DPS it can pop a hulk in highsec. Its still profitable even without insurance. So the trolling is useless.
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TentPegg
Divine Retribution Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2009.11.10 14:20:00 -
[39]
Either fit a battlehulk and use it to kill griefers or set up a hulk with a proper tank for 0.0 work. You can have a nice hulk for solo mining in 0.0 and tank most of the rats out here because of the small size of the ship. BS's dont find shooting a hulk that easy, so just get your drones on them and you pop em. Have happily tanked 3x 1.85 rats in a hulk and actually farmed em. Dual income ftw
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Destras
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Posted - 2009.11.10 14:57:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Destras on 10/11/2009 14:59:29
Originally by: Jugon
Originally by: Destras you honestly want fangs for miners?
if youll look at my stats for my latest killmail on battleclinic you will see that i indeed already have fangs when i mine. its called my drones, yes i killed a cruiser with my hulk, that cruiser had a manticore partner. killed one and hte other slipped away before i got him warp jammed. please stop this nonsense, miners need other things apart from what you foolishly believe we need.
Checked KB , and Yes a T1 Cruiser with T1 Fittings is easy to kill with a Hulk and T2 Drones. At least from my viewpoint, most of this topic doesn't come from Fighting T1 ships with junk fittings. But rather T2 Ships , or Well Fitted T1 Ships.
That was also a High Sec Kill... Most of the conversation here (and in other threads) for increasing mining ships defenses is directly related to Low Sec and 0 Sec , where it is highly unlikely that you will find Ships like that cruiser.
if you had looked at my history you would of noticed that ive lived in nullsec, ive been there ive mined there. you gear for the location, while we need more durable ships we do not need fangs. if you believe we need fangs then you need to re-eval your skills and your tactics in dealing with agressors. so please, step back a sec on that. i have survived numerous attacks in nullsec with my hulk where i have known many pilots to lose their ship, and i have survived against attacks that i should of lost to simply due to the way i geared out. if your gearing to speed mine or for bunch of cargo then you will not stand a chance, it is that simple. we do not need fangs at all. please stop asking for this nonsense it is not what miners need in the least.
**edit** i agree with the poster above. i have been in the exact same position.
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CYN0 H0
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Posted - 2009.11.10 20:00:00 -
[41]
Why do people seem to be SO AFRAID of miners finally getting the ability to defend themselves? What would happen to all the "carebear" bashing then?
Isn't CCP's big thing "realism?" Isn't that why pirates, ore thieves, can flippers, etc. exist in the first place? Realism?
So in what realistic universe would people just keep sending substandard ships to their death repeatedly? You would have every half-rate ship designer in the universe proposing new designs to save lost ships, time, income, etc. Hell, you would probably have the hightech eve equivelant of a redneck ducttaping medium turrets onto their hulks.
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Skex Relbore
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Posted - 2009.11.10 21:28:00 -
[42]
Mining ships need more grid particularly T2s. A hulk has like 45pg with all 5s that's frigging stupid. It's supposed to be a deep space mining ship intended for the most hostile environments yet it doesn't have the PG to fit anything close to resembling a credible tank.
Personally I say that they all need about 5-10X the amount of PG they have now. They could use a couple more lows and mids as well.
To the person who said you don't see cargo ships in the real world running around with Aegis systems the reason is that we have real military and police forces who hunt down and imprison/kill real pirates they do not just get podded they don't get insurance they get friggin dead so they aren't coming back in 10 minutes with a fresh ship to pick up the loot.
There is no justification for gimping industrial ships so much save to make life easier on fail Pvpers who prefer weak targets who can't shoot back and can't hope to survive long enough for help to arive.
Even if one has protection what the hell is that protection supposed to do other than extract revenge? Because these industrial ships are so fragile that that's all they are going to be able to do.
Seriously if this were a real universe do you really think ORE wouldn't not have built a mining ship that can take a few hits before imploding?
All the advice to fit a tank is pure ignorance of someone who's never actually bothered to try and fit a tank on a mining barge or exhumer if you had you'd discover the exact same thing I and every other miner has. That's there's just no fecking point because you can't build a credible frigging tank for a ship that slow and lumbering with 43pg.
Give us 400pg then we'll fit some tanks. I don't even want guns I just want to be able to take a pounding long enough for my defenders to have a chance of poping the agressor.
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Pantorus Necraliss
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Posted - 2009.11.10 21:59:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Pantorus Necraliss on 10/11/2009 22:06:28
Originally by: Skex Relbore Give us 400pg then we'll fit some tanks. I don't even want guns I just want to be able to take a pounding long enough for my defenders to have a chance of poping the agressor.
+1
The perfect ship : just need to tank rats, maybe with same yield as a retriver or a covertor to equilibrate
Don't say "Yes but with this you will do ratting and mining, double income :(" Re-pop is not so fast enough to allow a real ratting with this, reduce yield of this ship will compensate this and will make him useless for high sec
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Metalcali
Pacific Dawn
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Posted - 2009.11.10 22:02:00 -
[44]
Originally by: CYN0 H0 Why do people seem to be SO AFRAID of miners finally getting the ability to defend themselves? What would happen to all the "carebear" bashing then?
Isn't CCP's big thing "realism?" Isn't that why pirates, ore thieves, can flippers, etc. exist in the first place? Realism?
So in what realistic universe would people just keep sending substandard ships to their death repeatedly? You would have every half-rate ship designer in the universe proposing new designs to save lost ships, time, income, etc. Hell, you would probably have the hightech eve equivelant of a redneck ducttaping medium turrets onto their hulks.
What corp would let their miners get ganked constantly without having a guardian with them? ---
Originally by: CCP Mitnal Locked.
OP does not contain an idea.
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Skex Relbore
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Posted - 2009.11.10 22:11:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Metalcali
Originally by: CYN0 H0 Why do people seem to be SO AFRAID of miners finally getting the ability to defend themselves? What would happen to all the "carebear" bashing then?
Isn't CCP's big thing "realism?" Isn't that why pirates, ore thieves, can flippers, etc. exist in the first place? Realism?
So in what realistic universe would people just keep sending substandard ships to their death repeatedly? You would have every half-rate ship designer in the universe proposing new designs to save lost ships, time, income, etc. Hell, you would probably have the hightech eve equivelant of a redneck ducttaping medium turrets onto their hulks.
What corp would let their miners get ganked constantly without having a guardian with them?
What's the protection supposed to do again? In high sec they can't engage until after the deed is done so there is no defense against a suicide. In low sec sure they can engage first if you can keep them awake but there is a good chance the pirate can pop the miner before they die anyway since mining barges/exhumers don't have the grid to run a real tank.
Mining ain't that profitable especially once you have to start paying several combat pilots to stay on station. It's more effective from a corporate view to play the odds and just try to keep your miners in low population systems or hope that the high population ones lower the odds of your miners getting hit.
If the barges/exhumers could actually take a few hits it might be worth it but for now not so much.
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Destras
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Posted - 2009.11.11 00:48:00 -
[46]
what the hell are u putting on your hulk that it cant take any hits.... i mean honestly. if built right u can tank a Vaga for a good minute before popping, that is time for reinforcements.
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Jugon
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Posted - 2009.11.11 04:11:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Destras Edited by: Destras on 10/11/2009 14:59:29
if you had looked at my history you would of noticed that ive lived in nullsec, ive been there ive mined there. you gear for the location, while we need more durable ships we do not need fangs. if you believe we need fangs then you need to re-eval your skills and your tactics in dealing with agressors. so please, step back a sec on that. i have survived numerous attacks in nullsec with my hulk where i have known many pilots to lose their ship, and i have survived against attacks that i should of lost to simply due to the way i geared out. if your gearing to speed mine or for bunch of cargo then you will not stand a chance, it is that simple. we do not need fangs at all. please stop asking for this nonsense it is not what miners need in the least.
**edit** i agree with the poster above. i have been in the exact same position.
Ok, a sign that there are too many "Miner threads" on the first three pages ... I thought I had responded to this thread before, and have stated in some other thread somewhere that we don't need more combat (with the exception of possibly able to use a full squad of heavies), but more defense....
I did see that you live out in 0 sec, but the example was a weak example *shrug*... I also agree that you should be fitting out appropriately and not going for cargo space , or mining upgrades while out in low sec / 0 sec ...
I like some of the other ideas that I've read about increased powergrid etc so that we can equip something other than small reps, and Your T3 Mining thread sounded like a good idea to me....
:)
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Brechan Skene
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Posted - 2009.11.11 04:27:00 -
[48]
Originally by: TentPegg Either fit a battlehulk and use it to kill griefers or set up a hulk with a proper tank for 0.0 work. You can have a nice hulk for solo mining in 0.0 and tank most of the rats out here because of the small size of the ship. BS's dont find shooting a hulk that easy, so just get your drones on them and you pop em. Have happily tanked 3x 1.85 rats in a hulk and actually farmed em. Dual income ftw
The setup of your battlehulk please
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Sobon
Caldari Phantom Squad
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Posted - 2009.11.11 04:53:00 -
[49]
I've already posted to this effect in this thread and plenty like it. If miners need anything it's a bit thicker of a skin, expecting a dedicated mining ship to engage a dedicated combat ship with any reliable rate of winning is flatly insane. They're already fairly good at picking off tackle and the like, throw a pair of Warrior II's in the drone bay and have fun.
A simple solution would be giving them the buffer of a half decent cruiser while maintaining the ability to have a near max yield. ---------------------------------------------------
TQ Server Status: "BLACK HAWK ____" Does this mean we can expect down time in the near future? |
Magnum III
Journey On Squad
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Posted - 2009.11.11 06:46:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Magnum III on 11/11/2009 06:54:37 I mean it's not even a fight when you get attacked.
And I never attack miners because it is just too easy.
I think the problem is people looking for fight but no reason for anyone yto be out and about to attack unless they are mining at a belt. And why insult some one calling them a carebear when it is so easy to destroy their ship.
mission runners same thing.
Someone needs to get people to have a reason to fight and not always want to run unless they are going to win 100% like maybe make it realistic and have damage that has to be paid for and not just repped out of station.
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Brechan Skene
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Posted - 2009.11.11 07:36:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Mistress Jita Edited by: Mistress Jita on 06/11/2009 05:53:21 Edited by: Mistress Jita on 06/11/2009 05:48:06 I see it suggested from time to time in other threads but I can't find a thread about this specifically.
So... When do we finally get some fangs CCP? Even the PVP'ers who prey on miners are complaining now! (which I never in a million years thought I would see) Carebears ships pop too fast
When the predators start complaining that their prey can't even put up a fight, I think it's time to do something.
I don't even expect to see all or even most mining ships changed, but how about a new one?
Just raising the defenses on a mining ship won't fix the problem either, maybe you would live a little longer before you get killed, but all that will do is add more entertainment for the attackers.
No CCP dev, not even Hilmar himself can tell me with a straight face that they wouldn't love to see a griefer get killed by a miner for harrassing them...
I think one of the most cowardly acts in all of eve is attacking miners, due to the fact that they can't even be expected to reasonably defend themselves.
We all know of pvp'ers who prey on miners, and we all know there's only one reason why they do it, because they know it's a completely helpless, defenseless target who has no chance. If you attack a miner it means one thing, that you are too weak and scared for real pvp, and CCP should give miners the ability to put cowardly bullies in their place.
Afterall with all the revenue from mining it's only logical that someone would develop a mining ship capable of defending itself. It's more than just a game mechanics hole, it's a glaring emptiness in the storyline that would never happen if this was real, and CCP is known for striving for realism.
I hereby begin my petition for mining claws!
How about a compromise Here have some teeth
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Cedims
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Posted - 2009.11.11 15:03:00 -
[52]
Maybe we don't need "claws", but abilities to escape. Maybe a builtin "interdiction nullifier" for indy ships, which would actually make it a bit of a challenge for PvP'ers to take'em down? :)
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BrysonBennington
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Posted - 2009.11.11 19:17:00 -
[53]
I for one agree with you Mistress Jita, how many high sector Dreg's attack miners just to post a "Hey look how many ship kil's I have this week." on their forum's? Like you said this is not pvp, what it is a bunch of pilots like you have said that cannot fight solo one on one and like to call in their buddies to remote rep them if they do get into a one on one engagement with another ship they thought was weaker then they were. High sector ganking should also have a more sever punishment levied against those involved with ganking, possibly lower a lower security status and even being unable to jump into a system if they have a low enough security status for the system. Let's say a Dreg has been harrasing pilots at the Titan in Luminaire whre they constantly flip a pilots wreck to try and get the pilot to fight them. The can flipping itself should be tagged to the pilot as an aggressive act while not actually enough for Concord to be called in which would spread Concord thin and unable to respond to really big problems, but should see the Dreg's security status for that system decreased by .05% for each can flip. When the system security status reaches -2.00 for a system above a .7, the pilot would receive a warning that would be issued to the entire system that if they continue their current action's they will be locked out of the system by their jump drive serialized jump engine sequencer, the module that tells the gate what type of ship engine is being used and who the ship is registered too that actually allows the use of each jumpgate and cannot be removed from the engine which would cause the engine to not function, until their status has returned to a positive status. Each system will ahve a different can flipping percentage. The lower high sector system's that you tavel through will have a lower percentage added to the pilot's system security status.
.7 and up = .05% .6 = .03 .5 = .02 .4 = .01 .3 = .009 .2 = .008 .1 = to 0.0 no change in system security status.
Another idea could be to introduce tech three mining barges built off of the same technology that goes into the tech three cruiser's where depending on the size of the barge small medium and large would have the following added.
small t3 barge = one subsytsem mounting with two additional high slots for weapons mods only medium t3 barge = two subsystem's mounting's with two additional high slots, one additional medium slot and one additional low slot. large t3 barge = two additional susbsystem's mounting's with three additional high slots, one additional medium slot and one additional low slot.
small = small weapons only and would be tech two only medium = medium weapons only and would be tech two only large = medium weapons only and would be tech three only
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Xander XacXorien
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Posted - 2009.11.12 03:20:00 -
[54]
Evolution comes from survival of the fitest and progress comes from need.
If miners want an ORE ship that can tank then given the amount of time Eve has evolved and the need expressed and the ganking in highsec alone then they should be given their due.
For those advocating the opposite I cannot see the reason not to allow it, there are plenty of ships around to gank with and no ships to resist said gank.
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Mistress Jita
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Posted - 2009.11.14 20:04:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Mistress Jita on 14/11/2009 20:05:21
Originally by: Xander XacXorien
For those advocating the opposite I cannot see the reason not to allow it, there are plenty of ships around to gank with and no ships to resist said gank.
Because then there's nobody left that's helpless and completely unable to defend themselves, besides freighters but those don't go to belts, so they are always protected by station guns or gate guns.
In other words cowards will actually have to fight EACHOTHER instead of just ganking helpless ships that were never even designed to defend themselves.
Eve loses it's whipping boy and there's no easy target group left to pick on. To some this would seem to be a good thing, but the fact that some people are so angrily opposed should shed some light on their real intentions for wanting things to remain exactly the way they are.
C'mon how the hell else are their alt's supposed to pad their KB stats? |
Jugon
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Posted - 2009.11.14 21:48:00 -
[56]
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1209645
T3 Mining Barge.... is what miners need :D
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James Tritanius
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Posted - 2009.11.14 21:59:00 -
[57]
If you want to resist a gank, fit a tank. That's all.
Sure, it may have an impact on your mining yield, but it's a trade-off. Your hulk's mid and low slots are not just for mining laser upgrades and asteroid surveyors.
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Mistress Jita
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Posted - 2009.11.15 00:04:00 -
[58]
Resisting a gank is not protecting yourself, it's providing more enjoyment for your attacker, as they simply get a lower cycle time bonus on their tear extractors.
Fitting a tank is not protecting yourself, please refer to the line above.
Even when you DO fit a tank into any mining ship they are usually about three spots right . from an epic fail decimal point to begin with.
More ability to tank would be great, but this isn't just about being able to survive longer, it's about being able to defend yourself. If miners can't have more slots cpu/power to fit real weapons, make mining lasers/strip miners able to damage a ship, give them more dronebay/bandwidth, something.
A solo miner who runs two accounts to help make up for the damage macro miners do to his/her wallett, who doesn't get alot of time to play and therefore doesn't have time for a player corp, now has to further reduce his/her income by either hiring a bodygaurd and/or refitting his ship to deal with another group (like macro miners) who shouldn't even exist (but do) the infamous suicide ****ers.
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Sephiroth CloneIIV
Doomheim. Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.11.15 01:04:00 -
[59]
if you want a tougher minning ship, mine in a BS (close to retiver), domino has deadly drones to protect so dont need to worry about turrets.
Some ships are made for fighting and some are made for other tasks, if you realy want a tough minning ship you can allways do that, but most people want to squeze in a little extra minerals. Its all up to the player to chose, most chose risks and accept them.
For example if you want a tough hauler use a BS with 600 cargo space and do repeated runs, people dont because they are lazy and like things faster.
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Krystal Flores
Amarr Sinister Elite
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Posted - 2009.11.15 01:21:00 -
[60]
Miners can defend themselves, this is a non issue stfu
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