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Nano J
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Posted - 2009.11.02 13:04:00 -
[1]
Having been there for the fight, I saw a lot of Amarr/Caldari destroyed. Yes, SF lost their POS and a handful of caps. Yes, the isk battle may have been in favor of the Amarr. But looking at the broader aspects, I call this a win for Minmatar more than Amarr. The Minmatar/SF/allied forces faced nearly 2:1 odds, mostly against much larger ships. Yet I personally witnessed the destruction of several billion isk in Amarrian assets. Considering the overwhelming odds and what the Minmatar brought to the fight, the Amarr losses were incredible. I doubt the Amarr could have done that had the situation been reversed. |
CDLoon
Minmatar Red Sky Morning
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Posted - 2009.11.02 13:23:00 -
[2]
I have this feeling of deja vu.
To clarify a couple of items for the pilot above that seems to be hard of understanding.
Quote: Having been there for the fight, I saw a lot of Amarr/Caldari destroyed. Yes, SF lost their POS and a handful of caps. Yes, the isk battle may have been in favor of the Amarr. But looking at the broader aspects, I call this a win for Minmatar more than Amarr. The Minmatar/SF/allied forces faced nearly 2:1 odds, mostly against much larger ships.
Had the Minmatar Militia been on the battlefield rather than the periphery, the odds would have been stacked against us.
Quote: Yet I personally witnessed the destruction of several billion isk in Amarrian assets.
Agreed, for what it is worth, you did well to achieve numerous kills against single vessels isolated from the main fight.
Quote: I doubt the Amarr could have done that had the situation been reversed.
I heartily confirm this, seeing as any Amarr fleet would have been in the thick of the fighting on the battlefield, raising the standard of the Empress in defence of our allies, we would not allow them to lose 9 carriers for nothing.
We would have been in whatever vessels we had available. As we were on that fateful night. Yes we had 60+ battleships, a tribute to the dedication to the cause that we support, however we also had similar numbers of support, from Command Ship to a lowly ibis. We reshipped multiple times, I myself came back in a scavenged Typhoon from the Kamela station, even though Minmatar Militia forces attempted multiple times to prevent me.
I easily escaped however, since after twice been forced to dock and undock, the Minmatar fleet camping the station took a break and all docked up for 5 minutes.
Enough with the chestbeating threads, you achieved some great K:D ratios for your kill statistics, I'm happy for you.
Star Fraction bought a great fight and I respect that, however their tactical decisions let them down. If the pos was so unimportant tactically, why didnt they just let it die, then drop a new one once we had left the field, bored ?
Instead they give us the biggest fight possible, which we, on paper, based on those famous ISK values, won. We killed all the allies and the carriers, we looted the field and left it for the Gallente vultures to pick over.
The greatest losers in this were the Merc Corps hired by Star Fraction, as they lost a lot of ships and accomplished little, I hope they got some recompense for their efforts from SF.
Props to Cry Havoc who took advantage of the confusion to kill more Battleships than the Minmatar Militia and Star Fraction combined.
AMARR VICTOR.
CDLoon
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Nano J
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Posted - 2009.11.02 15:31:00 -
[3]
Originally by: CDLoon
Had the Minmatar Militia been on the battlefield rather than the periphery, the odds would have been stacked against us.
Right. Sounds like you're trying to justify your unreasonable losses.
Point is: about 10 carriers/50 BS/100 t1 frigs & cruisers nearly tied an isk battle with almost 150 BS with logistics and other support. Most of all, I had a blast- as did the whole Minmatar fleet. I doubt the Amarr were as entertained to get ganked every time they left the POS.
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SuiJuris
No.Mercy
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Posted - 2009.11.02 15:39:00 -
[4]
What is this the ninth thread about the same freaking Battle, Seriously guys, Instead of posting a new thread just post in some of the existing threads. --- I am taking pre orders for Navy Armageddons |
CDLoon
Minmatar Red Sky Morning
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Posted - 2009.11.02 15:45:00 -
[5]
Thats a good idea Sui.
I just felt our poor friend Nano J was crying for some attention as he is obviously lacking some in the light of SF taking all the credit.
Just doing my bit for the Empire.
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Nano J
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Posted - 2009.11.02 17:40:00 -
[6]
Originally by: SuiJuris What is this the ninth thread about the same freaking Battle, Seriously guys, Instead of posting a new thread just post in some of the existing threads.
Hence the thread title. Just wanted to give my perspective, since I rarely do.
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Mielono
Caldari SWARTA
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Posted - 2009.11.02 19:13:00 -
[7]
Same Perspective as every other Minmatar... so you really could have saved the rest of us the effort. My viewpoint is that the Amarr/Caldari combined forces completed their initial objectives all the time wondering how the heck they did that with so many opposing forces in local. Minmatar gained a huge KD ratio because they avoided the main fight and did an important job of decreasing incoming against their allies. SF lost a pos and a handful of caps, but that doesn't matter since they put up a new one(...so if a storm blows down my house it now does not matter as long as I build a new one quickly) and of course are building a whole new fleet(if my Drake gets blown up it does not matter since I can always build another one...with this perspective I guess that the Amarr/Caldari took no losses)
Really and truly with this perspective no one on the field took any losses since they can all rebuild later.
Which means that neither side is taking any losses at all... so.. why are you fighting then??? Because obviously blowing up Caps and Pos's do not matter at all so in perspective attacking single BS in groups of 20 do not matter at all either.
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Jelosavich
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Posted - 2009.11.02 19:28:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Nano J
Point is: about 10 carriers/50 BS/100 t1 frigs & cruisers nearly tied an isk battle with almost 150 BS with logistics and other support. Most of all, I had a blast- as did the whole Minmatar fleet. I doubt the Amarr were as entertained to get ganked every time they left the POS.
You must not be counting the multiple merc and pirate corps that engaged the Amarr/Caldari militias while we were there.
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Zverofaust
Gallente Ice Fire Warriors
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Posted - 2009.11.02 19:48:00 -
[9]
Confirming Nano J's statements. Everything he said is factual and succinct. I really do agree.
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.11.02 20:09:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Mielono Which means that neither side is taking any losses at all... so.. why are you fighting then??? Because obviously blowing up Caps and Pos's do not matter at all so in perspective attacking single BS in groups of 20 do not matter at all either.
Well we (SF) are fighting to enable our Matari allies to better resist the reclaiming agenda of the Amarrian empire. We saw from the first weeks in this warzone that the 24th Crusade is a better/equipped and more numerous force than the TLF and in order for the Matari to succeed its neccessary for freedom fighters to assist and aid them in the campaign. The situation has declined further in the last few months with the effective collapse of the Gallente/Caldari front and the combined assault on the Bleaklands by State/Crusade coalition forces.
We're not fighting for K/D ratio and counting coup Mielono - we're fighting because if we don't then nothing will stop the Amarr Empire dominating these systems and enslaving billions of souls who might otherwise know a life of freedom and prosperity.
You I imagine are fighting because you support the Amarrian effort and imagine that Heth will be able to strike some kind of compact with Jamyl Sarum when the campaigning is done.
But don't believe for a moment this is about isk and spaceships alone.
True Knowledge |
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SuiJuris
No.Mercy
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Posted - 2009.11.02 20:15:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Mielono Which means that neither side is taking any losses at all... so.. why are you fighting then??? Because obviously blowing up Caps and Pos's do not matter at all so in perspective attacking single BS in groups of 20 do not matter at all either.
Well we (SF) are fighting to enable our Matari allies to better resist the reclaiming agenda of the Amarrian empire. We saw from the first weeks in this warzone that the 24th Crusade is a better/equipped and more numerous force than the TLF and in order for the Matari to succeed its neccessary for freedom fighters to assist and aid them in the campaign. The situation has declined further in the last few months with the effective collapse of the Gallente/Caldari front and the combined assault on the Bleaklands by State/Crusade coalition forces.
We're not fighting for K/D ratio and counting coup Mielono - we're fighting because if we don't then nothing will stop the Amarr Empire dominating these systems and enslaving billions of souls who might otherwise know a life of freedom and prosperity.
You I imagine are fighting because you support the Amarrian effort and imagine that Heth will be able to strike some kind of compact with Jamyl Sarum when the campaigning is done.
But don't believe for a moment this is about isk and spaceships alone.
I actually think that the TLF puts up a pretty good fight on its own TBH, I wouldn't say they would just lose the war outright without your influence.
I, not being of Amarr Decent, am here simply to help my Allies out, and enjoy the good fights, Which the slaves tend to provide.
That being said, this thread really wasn't necessary, I think its what the ninth thread about this same battle? --- I am taking pre orders for Navy Armageddons |
Bomberlocks
Minmatar Icarus Prime
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Posted - 2009.11.02 20:49:00 -
[12]
Originally by: CDLoon ... If the pos was so unimportant tactically, why didnt they just let it die, then drop a new one once we had left the field, bored ?
...
I think you may perhaps misunderstand the point of the Star Fraction standing and fighting. The point was to stand and fight, and they did.
I do, however, agree with you that there is too much chest thumping going on. I personally have enormous respect for the Amarr militia's ability to wage organised and strategically well planned warfare, and have been on the losing end of that a number of times. What I cannot understand is their will to fight for an empire so narrowly based on the character of a single person, the Empress.
But each to his or her own, I say, and that's why I respect The Star Fraction.
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Riso Makaan
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Posted - 2009.11.02 21:20:00 -
[13]
I am tired of reading these same sentences and arguments in thread after thread, yet in all the repetition, a very important point was only raised once by the Amarr side, and then not even acknowledged by the opposition (Probably because it was a damn good point), and that is this;
Battleships are insurable. Carriers, POSses and the two Legions that were claimed are not.
A great ratio was still acheived, sure, and the Freedom Fighters still did well, no doubt about it, but please do try to remember the issue on insurance.
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Nano J
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Posted - 2009.11.03 12:19:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Mielono
Really and truly with this perspective no one on the field took any losses since they can all rebuild later.
That's quite a paradox you have there. ((Why even play the game????))
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Jakiin
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Posted - 2009.11.03 12:43:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Nano J
Originally by: Mielono
Really and truly with this perspective no one on the field took any losses since they can all rebuild later.
That's quite a paradox you have there. ((Why even play the game????))
That's the point. The argument "Well, we can just rebuild" is a silly one that infers foolish things about the point of war at all. ISK is a set amount, and making an enemy spend more ISK will be helpful in numerous ways. For instance...
1. An Alliance can only put so much ISK towards anything. By destroying 7 SF carriers and 2 of other alliance's carriers, they have lost billions of ISK that might have otherwise been dedicated to the war effort by upgrading their current fleet (Perhaps if SF had had enough extra money lying around to entrust a few more pilots with carriers in the Kamela battle, it would have gone differently).
2. Individual pilots only have so much ISK to spend. In the Amarr and Associates case especially, the pilots that lost BS's here today are unlikely to be as eager to field them again as they were before. The ISK they lost has to be recuperated, which means more time spent earning cash and less time spent shooting other ships.
3. Willpower. It's a known fact that if you present enough of an obstacle, an enemy will almost always back down. Even if leadership is ready to throw their assets against the enemy until all that's left for them to do is ram their capsules against the enemy hulls, individual pilots might not be. Lose enough ISK, and the pilot will decide that whatever they're getting from it can be gained somewhere else.
ISK matters. ISK, actually, matters quite a bit to most people. One can rag on about the high road and the will to power all they want, but at the end of the day sheer determination alone will not buy and equip the ships to facilitate it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jakiin Holder Heir of the Kingdom 'Pacifist Reclaimer' |
ChipMo
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.11.03 17:05:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Riso Makaan
Battleships are insurable. Carriers, POSses and the two Legions that were claimed are not.
Carriers are insurable. PoS cost next to nothing, I don't know who the Legions belonged to but it wasn't SF (all our losses can be found on our database).
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.11.03 17:13:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Jakiin 1. An Alliance can only put so much ISK towards anything. By destroying 7 SF carriers and 2 of other alliance's carriers, they have lost billions of ISK that might have otherwise been dedicated to the war effort by upgrading their current fleet (Perhaps if SF had had enough extra money lying around to entrust a few more pilots with carriers in the Kamela battle, it would have gone differently).
I assure you the limits on the size of our capital fleet are set by number of appropriately trained pilots rather than the isk-investment in the hulls. Training takes time. That is a more immutable measure of limitation than isk itself.
Quote: 2. Individual pilots only have so much ISK to spend. In the Amarr and Associates case especially, the pilots that lost BS's here today are unlikely to be as eager to field them again as they were before. The ISK they lost has to be recuperated, which means more time spent earning cash and less time spent shooting other ships.
Yes, that tends to be more a problem for individual members of a vast coalition than for the more tight-knit members of a revolutionary cause however. Practically speaking the salvage-split from the 20 SF battleships and 7 carriers from the field in Kamela at the weekend won't go far when spread amongst 360 enemy pilots. It takes time to recover and when the individual pilots are not supported by their friends and comrades it can be a very difficult process.
Quote: 3. Willpower. It's a known fact that if you present enough of an obstacle, an enemy will almost always back down. Even if leadership is ready to throw their assets against the enemy until all that's left for them to do is ram their capsules against the enemy hulls, individual pilots might not be. Lose enough ISK, and the pilot will decide that whatever they're getting from it can be gained somewhere else.
That tends to separate the opportunists and thrill-seekers from the inspired and committed comrades. One thing I've noticed of State Crusade aligned pilots for example, is a fairly significant inability to risk assets and keep fighting. Many are "along for the ride" but don't really like to place their own possessions and vessels at risk. I think its no exaggeration to say that *any* of the State Crusade aligned corporations SF has been fighting of late would have been broken by the scale of losses we've suffered recently. Take No.Mercy as an example - their whole selling point as an entity is being "hard to kill" - thats the corp motto and its the reason their membership join up. They are attracted by the image of deeply conservative and risk-adverse combat. Puncture that expectation with some battleship losses and isk expense any they really have a problem.
Where SF rides these troubles is twofold, we're recruiting people who want to the fight for what they believe, who see the status of free captaincy is more important than K/D ratio and being "hard to kill." Star Fraction vessels are not in any way shape or means "hard to kill" - but the dream of Star Fraction and our mythology across the Star Cluster? - Thats pretty difficult to break down.
This means the "morale" test works differently for different people. To break No.Mercy's morale an enemy simply needs to begin killing their ships and deflating the self-image of those pilots. (As TLF did at the weekend).
To break SF morale - well, you'd need to drive wedges between our fighters and the cause we are fighting for. Ultimately only the TLF can make or break SF morale since we are here to fight for the freedom of the Matari people.
Quote: ISK matters. ISK, actually, matters quite a bit to most people. One can rag on about the high road and the will to power all they want, but at the end of the day sheer determination alone will not buy and equip the ships to facilitate it.
The problem with isk as a measure is "a lot of isk" means different things to different people. Try "time" and "effort" instead.
True Knowledge |
Riso Makaan
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Posted - 2009.11.03 21:45:00 -
[18]
Originally by: ChipMo
Originally by: Riso Makaan
Battleships are insurable. Carriers, POSses and the two Legions that were claimed are not.
Carriers are insurable. PoS cost next to nothing, I don't know who the Legions belonged to but it wasn't SF (all our losses can be found on our database).
I stand corrected, Carriers ARE insurable (I don't want to see the platinum premium for THOSE! yeesh!) but even so, are very expensive to replace and re-insure, and POSses are not that cheap (not a well-stocked one, anyway).
As for the matter of ISK, think of it like this; think of the combat effectiveness that would be gained from spendig the billions lost in battle on upgrading a current fleet to as many T2 variant of the same ships being flown as the pilots can manage with their skills, especially if you consider this as a gift to said pilots, it would skyrocket morale. (That's theoretical, of course, i dont thinik anyone would do that, realistically)
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Jakiin
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Posted - 2009.11.03 21:53:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Riso Makaan As for the matter of ISK, think of it like this; think of the combat effectiveness that would be gained from spendig the billions lost in battle on upgrading a current fleet to as many T2 variant of the same ships being flown as the pilots can manage with their skills, especially if you consider this as a gift to said pilots, it would skyrocket morale. (That's theoretical, of course, i dont thinik anyone would do that, realistically)
Come sort of communist corporation or alliance would be able to manage that, but I'm not aware of any wildly successful ones. Likely something to do with the large amounts of pilot faith and work input required for that kind of operation to run. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jakiin Holder Heir of the Kingdom 'Pacifist Reclaimer' |
Nauticaa
Gallente Empire Assault Corp Dead Terrorists
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Posted - 2009.11.03 23:31:00 -
[20]
OK here's my two isk for what its worth.
I was in the heat of the battle from the start. Was a time I was too far away from the fight to apply my remote rep so I warped off and immediately returned.
When I landed the second time the sight that I saw brought a tear to my eye. A few carriers including one other ôIndependent.ö Holding the field along with a few convents versus a hundred man plus battleship fleet.
I'm not in the Millita I have friends that are but I'm not hell I have fought SF many a time. But I have to say as I settled down and started to answer broadcasts I was proud to be there. One of the few against the many.
Despite being heavily outnumbered the few ships on the field lasted for another hour at least some pilots losing their ship then returning a minute later in another boat. I have never seen such determination to stay in a fight as I did from the star fraction pilots that day. I was proud to fly alongside them and would do so again as I suspect the Archon pilot would.
Yes I was surprised not to see more of the Minmatar Millita in the thick of things but to be honest from a tacticians point of view they did the right thing. They didn't have the bs fleet needed to make a difference in that fight they'd of just got slaughtered, Whereas by doing what they did they stopped multiple Amarr battleships returning to the field.
What the Amarr don't seem to realise is that most if not all the pilots who stuck it to the end were old school warriors. The kind that live for the battle where its nice to get a victory for the few of us that still think like this win or lose its the fight we live for.
So Well fought good fight and look forward to the next one but can we please stop this smack fest it was a grand battle one that will be remembered in song and lore for years to come.
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Wanoah
Minmatar Msana Foundation
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Posted - 2009.11.04 01:20:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Jakiin
Come sort of communist corporation or alliance would be able to manage that, but I'm not aware of any wildly successful ones.
Reikoku were (are?) just such a corp, and they could be considered to be at least moderately successful.
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Jakiin
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Posted - 2009.11.04 01:28:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Wanoah Reikoku were (are?) just such a corp, and they could be considered to be at least moderately successful.
This is interesting, I'll take a look into it. Thanks for the tip. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jakiin Holder Heir of the Kingdom 'Pacifist Reclaimer' |
Riso Makaan
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Posted - 2009.11.04 06:43:00 -
[23]
Indeed, I've considered such a Communist corporation many times, but the truth of the matter is I come to think that you would be running less than a week before someone makes off with all the ISK/assets. which would rather end the whole affair in a heartbeat.
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fatmanpaul
Killed In Action
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Posted - 2009.11.05 00:14:00 -
[24]
We isk poor Minmatar do what we can to fight the Amar with their centuries of wealth; I shouldn't say this but our real fleets are massing in WH space ready to liberate our lost tribes held in Amarr prision factories.
Well that is what Captain tells me. He is not often wrong.
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