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Ghoest
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Posted - 2009.10.30 19:35:00 -
[31]
1 If the numbers he gave are correct it will have worse not better hitpoint regen.
2 You gave the Rattlesnake as an example of better option for shield tanking. For a Rattlesnake to match the PVE tank of a CNR it will have gimp damage. The only way the passive tanker BS measure up to active tanks is if you have gimp damage on both.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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NuckenFutz
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Posted - 2009.10.30 19:46:00 -
[32]
But the math i just posted shows the average HP/s regen is higher with the navy domi
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.10.30 19:52:00 -
[33]
Ghoest said "1 If the numbers he gave are correct it will have worse not better hitpoint regen." Take a look again, his numbers say better. I checked myself the HP regen is higher without using the extra slot.
Ghoest said said "For a Rattlesnake to match the PVE tank of a CNR it will have gimp damage. The only way the passive tanker BS measure up to active tanks is if you have gimp damage on both." You don't have to match the tank of a CNR. You have to match the damage of the CNR and have enough tank to do the mission without a problem. Any extra tank is unneeded. You might not even have to gimp damage to match the CNR tank.
Not sure you can directly compare the Rattlesnake to CNR due to weapon system difference. My idea is to use x2 Navy drone tracking mods, x2 drone speed mods and then I believe the Rattlesnake with hvy drones will cut though BC and smaller ships far faster than a CNR. Add on torps and it will match a CNR against BS size ships. So overall it should be faster than a CNR. But that's just a theory.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Footoo Rama
Gallente Caldari Illuminati
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Posted - 2009.10.30 20:51:00 -
[34]
Originally by: NuckenFutz Where did it say the shield recharge rate was going to crap? I didnt see that listed in any of the changes.
Nope they said it in the main post, basically with the shield regen you will not be able to eclipse the regular domi as a passive tanker. ------- "Because the Dominix is the Chuck Norris of Eve!" |
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.10.30 20:56:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Pottsey on 30/10/2009 20:56:42 Footoo Rama said " Nope they said it in the main post, basically with the shield regen you will not be able to eclipse the regular domi as a passive tanker." That's not right. The Navy do eclipse the regular domi as a passive tanker. They increased the hitpoint number by 50% but only increased the shield recharge number around 35%. So overall you end up better off and eclipse the regular domi.
Yes they increase the shield recharge and rightly so. The increase was to stop passive tanks on navy ships getting overpowered. The shield recharger increase does not make them worse passive tanks then the standard ships.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2009.10.30 21:33:00 -
[36]
Yes is right that its slightly better than the base Domi.
But what I said about all passive shield tanks being gimp compared to most mission boats is true. The only way a passive tank looks good is if you compare it to a sub par mission BS.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Terianna Eri
Amarr Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
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Posted - 2009.10.30 21:44:00 -
[37]
pottsey what is it with you and not using the quote function like a normal person makes your posts harder to read
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.10.30 22:04:00 -
[38]
Ghoest said "But what I said about all passive shield tanks being gimp compared to most mission boats is true. The only way a passive tank looks good is if you compare it to a sub par mission BS." How is it true? You have the same damage output and do mission at around the same speed. That's hardly gimp.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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EFT Worrier
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Posted - 2009.10.30 22:14:00 -
[39]
So... what's the base/peak shield recharge on a navy domi with all the std fittings please anyone? No access to EFT atm.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2009.10.30 22:36:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Pottsey Ghoest said said "For a Rattlesnake to match the PVE tank of a CNR it will have gimp damage. The only way the passive tanker BS measure up to active tanks is if you have gimp damage on both." You don't have to match the tank of a CNR. You have to match the damage of the CNR and have enough tank to do the mission without a problem. Any extra tank is unneeded. You might not even have to gimp damage to match the CNR tank.
Not sure you can directly compare the Rattlesnake to CNR due to weapon system difference. My idea is to use x2 Navy drone tracking mods, x2 drone speed mods and then I believe the Rattlesnake with hvy drones will cut though BC and smaller ships far faster than a CNR. Add on torps and it will match a CNR against BS size ships. So overall it should be faster than a CNR. But that's just a theory.
they have different weapons yes, but they both do dps and have tanks, so there are ways to compare them, although this fails if people completely fail to see (and/or mention) the drawbacks of various weapons. like zomg 1500 dps rage torp cnr!!!
also using heavy drones to take out battle cruisers is pretty fail, sentries will hit anything bigger then a destroyer just fine. not quite sure how well cruise missiles work on cruisers/bcs, haven't flown a cruise setup in ages. although I believe i remember hearing liang say he could 1 volley most cruisers. on bcs I remember doing it in 2 or 3 shots, but that was ages ago with low skills.
you could use torps, but they seem like they would be mostly useless most of the time as you have split fire, drones doing one thing an torps on another target. or control your drones, but then have to launch a different set later to deal with the small stuff.
rattlesnake won't even be close on complete times to the cnr. the tank will be fantastic, but meh.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.10.30 23:50:00 -
[41]
Chainsaw Plankton said " also using heavy drones to take out battle cruisers is pretty fail," Its not fail if they kill the target in seconds like they would with the setup I gave. Heavy drones cut though the target like a hot knife through butter. I don't see how that is fail.
Chainsaw Plankton " but then have to launch a different set later to deal with the small stuff." You don't, with 2 or 3 navy tracking links heavy drones even take out frigs. About the only thing you might have to change for are spider drones. Anyway with the speed mods pulling back and launching smaller drones is hardly a problem. The big question for me is how many mid slots can we use for drone mods without making the tank to weak for both the Domi navy and Rattlesnake. I guess 4 to 5 mids slots on drone mods. Right now I assume 2 tracking and 2 speed are best but I need to experiment. I hope to fit in 3 tracking and 2 speed for the Rattlesnake but I think the navy Domi will only get away with 4 drone mods.
Chainsaw Plankton said " rattlesnake won't even be close on complete times to the cnr. the tank will be fantastic, but meh." Your right it won't be close it will be much faster :) Ok more seriously perhaps you're right, but we need to experiment to be sure. I reckon the time you save killing BC and smaller ships means you do the missions faster than the CNR. I have never seen a CNR that can kill BC and smaller ships as fast as drones with drone mods. That and with the tracking links the heavy drones are going to be hitting BS's for pretty much max damage.
Yes it has a fantastic tank but the trick is to not overtank and free up as many slots as you can for none tanking mods. Even if I am wrong which is a very real possibility, the rattlesnake will still finish missions fast. Perhaps it will be a little slower than the CNR but a little slower doesn't matter.
Another goal of main is to fly the Rattlesnake in a gang with the role of anti BC and smaller ships. Fit 4 navy tracking links and 3 drone speed mods and it should fill that role very well.
Chainsaw Plankton said " you could use torps, but they seem like they would be mostly useless most of the time as you have split fire, drones doing one thing an torps on another target." Why would it be useless? It would be useless to focus fire on smaller ships as drones already kill super fast. Basically you aggro everything leave the drones to choose their own targets and they normally choose cruisers before battleships. So while drones are killing sub BS ships fast you torpedo the BS's. Once drones have done with all sub BS ships you focus fire drones and torps on any remaining BS's. Well that's the principle I work on with railguns and drones. I let the drones wonder around set to focus drone fire and use railguns to hit battleships. I just hope it transfers over well to torps and drones. I don't see why it wouldn't work.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Footoo Rama
Gallente Caldari Illuminati
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Posted - 2009.10.31 01:09:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Footoo Rama on 31/10/2009 01:10:27
Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 30/10/2009 21:00:51 Footoo Rama said " Nope they said it in the main post, basically with the shield regen you will not be able to eclipse the regular domi as a passive tanker." That's not right. The Navy do eclipse the regular domi as a passive tanker. They increased the hitpoint number by 50% but only increased the shield recharge number around 35%. So overall you end up better off and eclipse the regular domi.
Yes they increase the shield recharge and rightly so. The increase was to stop passive tanks on navy ships getting overpowered. The shield recharger increase does not make them worse passive tanks then the standard ships. Here are the HP regen of the base ships without fitting, skills or implants
EDIT: Here are the HP regen of the base ships without fitting, skills or implants
Normal Domi 5.4 HP/s Navy Domi 5.9 HP/s
So with the same fittings a Navy Domi will always have a stronger passive tank then a normal Domi.
I somewhat disagree I am pretty sure that with the higher base HP and only slightly higher recharge, you will not be able to create the "passive effect" where you can regen lots of HP quickly, while the shield may be larger, I am not sure that it will be possible to regen around 300hp a sec peak like you can in a current domi. the reason is passive tanking does not relie on the base recharge speed, but the time it takes to recharge the shield, and the ability to raise the total HP and lower the recharge time.
Example
2400+ 2x lSE 4000 = 6400hp 30 second recharge = 213hp a sec 3600+ 2x LSE 4000 = 7600hp 40 second recharge = 190hp a sec
I know the example numbers are wrong but they are representative, the lower example has 1.5 hp and a 30% faster recharge rate, and makes a poorer passive tanker, ans illustrates the difference between the navy and the regular.
------- "Because the Dominix is the Chuck Norris of Eve!" |
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.10.31 10:14:00 -
[43]
Footoo Rama said "I know the example numbers are wrong but they are representative, the lower example has 1.5 hp and a 30% faster recharge rate, and makes a poorer passive tanker, ans illustrates the difference between the navy and the regular." I never thought of it like that. I guess as I use drone mods and resistance mods over lots of shield extenders. On the other hand the higher recharge and higher hitpoints should mean you get more of an impact from purgers and SPR's both of which you have more off then shield extenders. If you fit just purgers and SPR's then the Navy comes out with the stronger tank.
Still you have a good point; I should have done more testing when we had access to the navy ships. Not as sure now which would be better once you mix in SPR's, Purgers and extenders.
Chainsaw Plankton "rattlesnake won't even be close on complete times to the cnr. the tank will be fantastic, but meh." Another thing to consider about speed won't the Rattlesnake and Navy Domi drones kill lots of ships before the CNR torps have even got into range? A lot of missions have rats groups at 60 to 100km away.
Will that advantage on the Navy Domi and Rattlesnake beat the CNR advantages?
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Stalina
Gallente Deep Space Exploration Squad Ev0ke
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Posted - 2009.10.31 12:27:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Pottsey stuff
dude, there's a quote button - use it. ________________________________________
________________________________________ http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
NuckenFutz
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Posted - 2009.10.31 13:59:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Footoo Rama Edited by: Footoo Rama on 31/10/2009 01:10:27 Example
2400+ 2x lSE 4000 = 6400hp 30 second recharge = 213hp a sec 3600+ 2x LSE 4000 = 7600hp 40 second recharge = 190hp a sec
I know the example numbers are wrong but they are representative, the lower example has 1.5 hp and a 30% faster recharge rate, and makes a poorer passive tanker, ans illustrates the difference between the navy and the regular.
You are correct, after looking at the numbers. With the full 25% bonus from skills.
Navy domi with 3 LSE = 200975 Shield HP and a regen time of 254.19 which = Avg regen of 79.064 reg domi with 3 LSE comes to 16680 Shield HP with a regen time of 187.45 = Avg regen of 88.983
So Reg Domi is better with 3 LSE II's when the 4th is factord in, (extra mid slot) the numbers come out as follows Navy domi with 4 LSE = 23378 Shield HP and a regen time of 254.19 which = Avg regen of 91.97
So the navy domi will only be better when using its extra mid slot to extend its shields further, it will be marginally better at that.
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NuckenFutz
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Posted - 2009.10.31 14:04:00 -
[46]
Originally by: NuckenFutz
So Reg Domi is better with 3 LSE II's when the 4th is factord in, (extra mid slot) the numbers come out as follows Navy domi with 4 LSE = 23378 Shield HP and a regen time of 254.19 which = Avg regen of 91.97
Additionally if you use the extra slot for a shield recharger II the Avg regen goes to 93.26
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.10.31 14:43:00 -
[47]
Stalina said "dude, there's a quote button - use it." I am quoting correctly according to the rules of the English language. Get used to it.
So it appears the Navy Domi only tanks better when you tank with rigs and low slots and use mid slots for drone modules. Or if you use the extra slot. Guess I am going for a Rattlesnake over a Navy Domi then.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Stuart Price
Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2009.10.31 19:30:00 -
[48]
My pedant-gauge just melted. I am now going to correctly punctuate your sentences:
"I am quoting correctly according to the rules of the English language, get used to it."
"So it appears the Navy Domi only tanks better when you tank with rigs and low slots and use mid slots for drone modules or if you use the extra slot. I guess I am going for a Rattlesnake over a Navy Domi."
"Navy Domi", is acceptable since it is an abbreviation of a name. I shall now sit back and await my fellow pedants who will, no doubt, correct my own (probable) errors; the beauty of the English language is that some of its more arcane intricacies are difficult to use.
As a final point, correct use of English is not the same as correct use of forum tools! Putting the 'irate' into 'Pirate' |
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