Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 .. 26 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Ephemeron
Lubricous Rebel Alliance of New Eden
|
Posted - 2011.01.26 19:38:00 -
[691]
In addition to all the problems mentioned, there's another small but noticeable issue:
Hybrids damage type is worst for general PvP.
A lot of PvP ships are t2/t3 Hybrid damage type is strongly resisted by Gallente and Caldari t2/t3, with weaker resists on Minmatar and Gallente
Projectiles have switchable damage types so they can always hit weak resists. That makes it very attractive for PvP in addition to all the tracking and range advantages.
Lasers are strongly resisted by Minmatar t2/t3, weakly resisted by Gallente/Caldari, and no extra resists on Amarr t2/t3 Naturally, lasers look more attractive than hybrid damage due to less overlap with t2 resists. In addition to that, majority of sub-battleship PvP ships are shield buffer tanks, which makes lasers more attractive than hybrids.
So even when fighting t1 ships without special resists, you are more likely to encounter shield buffers, so you want EM and Thermal damage. Both lasers and projectiles offer that. Hybrids are weaker.
This isn't a big thing, but it's worth about 10% damage to me, intuitively. Meaning that if I have a choice between 1 ship with lasers and another identical ship with hybrids and 10% more damage, I'd seriously think about which to choose. And if both ships were identical, 1 dealt laser damage, other dealt hybrid damage - the choice would be lasers 99% of the time
|
Omara Otawan
|
Posted - 2011.01.26 19:47:00 -
[692]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 26/01/2011 19:54:47
Originally by: Ephemeron
So even when fighting t1 ships without special resists, you are more likely to encounter shield buffers, so you want EM and Thermal damage. Both lasers and projectiles offer that. Hybrids are weaker.
You didnt account for the damage type spread on Emp or the armor and hull portions of t1 shield buffer tanks (which are still a considerable amount of total ehp on these, especially on the BC level). In fact, CN Antimatter is just as good RF Emp against t1 shield buffers.
Lasers are much better against shields though, agree there.
As far as general damage type goes, kin/therm is a great damage to deal, as it offers decent performance against shield and armor at the same time.
There is a reason minmatar pilots regularly default to phased plasma (which is kin/therm) when facing unknown or mixed tank type hostile groups.
|
Ephemeron
Lubricous Rebel Alliance of New Eden
|
Posted - 2011.01.26 20:13:00 -
[693]
I am aware that there are many cases where EM is not preferred, besides the Minmatar t2
But as someone with lots of experience, I can see that the cases where EM is preferred happen more often than when EM is not desired. If I had to put a distribution percentage on it, I'd say it's about 65% in favor of EM, 35% against
And as someone who flew Minmatar on my main for last couple months, with about 200 kills worth, I found that the based combo of ammo is Fusion and EMP. I believe that resorting to Phased Plasma in PvP is for noobs
Anyway, I said that wasn't a big issue. It's a small one, about 10% worth.
|
Omara Otawan
|
Posted - 2011.01.26 20:36:00 -
[694]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 26/01/2011 20:47:23
Originally by: Ephemeron
I believe that resorting to Phased Plasma in PvP is for noobs
Well, you believe wrong then. Nothing worse than shooting the primary in a gang, or a solo target you attacked and doing fail damage because you assumed a wrong resist profile.
In a solo engagement those 10 seconds to switch ammo or going on with the wrong damage type is going to cost you the fight.
Ofc there are those cases that are a complete giveaway, but these days even attacking a Harbinger isnt automatically a case of 'alright lets load fusion'.
Emp or Fusion for those fights where you are 110% sure what you are going to engage (i.e. they have Guardians or Scimitars with them, or its a Drake), PP if you cant be sure, Barrage if you want to kite.
Edit: And to be frank, using Emp against any battlecruiser other than Drake or Cyclone these days is the true noobish move even if you assume its shield tanked. You lose almost nothing by going for PP instead, and the consequences if you guessed wrong is much less severe.
And that is with triple CDFE standard shield buffers, before we even take into account the various cheapskates flying around with dual CDFE + EM rigs, where using Emp is actually worse than PP. Or before the standard triple CDFE buffers overload their invul field in which case PP or Emp makes no difference at all.
|
Ephemeron
Lubricous Rebel Alliance of New Eden
|
Posted - 2011.01.26 21:33:00 -
[695]
the point is that blasters suck in more ways than one
I believe blasters need 20% more damage - all blasters. That would be equivalent of a free damage mod. That would ensure that projectile and laser ships can't overturn that advantage by fitting 1 damage mod of their own. And it would make up for the bad tracking, bad optimal+falloff, hard fitting requirements, energy use, and damage type of blasters.
But I'm pretty sure it would fall on death ears at CCP, as they are suffering from collective case of damage-phobia
|
Jonathan Xavier
Discrete Solutions Ltd.
|
Posted - 2011.01.26 23:28:00 -
[696]
+1
|
Slovic Gustav
Avatar Dynasty Intergalactic Exports Group
|
Posted - 2011.01.27 01:47:00 -
[697]
Edited by: Slovic Gustav on 27/01/2011 01:49:30 Well the way I see it is that the close range nature of blasters should mean that they should have the best tracking of any system ingame. They should also have the highest dps of any weapon system ingame because of the short range nature of blasters.
Just take a look at evekill top 20.
Only 1 sub cap ship that is Gallente on the top 20.
Only 1 Gallente weapon system on the top 20, and its a cap weapon.
As for failguns, I mean railguns I honestly think that they just need a complete overhaul.
|
Ephemeron
Lubricous Rebel Alliance of New Eden
|
Posted - 2011.01.27 01:53:00 -
[698]
Edited by: Ephemeron on 27/01/2011 01:54:00 it would be a bit unfair if blasters had best damage AND best tracking.
It would make them more general purpose, easier to use. Damage should be high, but it should be hard to use. Damage should be high enough to make overcoming tracking difficulties a useful thing. Employ web + scram, take advantage of falloff, try match traverse velocity. Things that take real player skill. Cause if you get high damage and ease of use, then it's unbalanced.
|
Otto Schultzky
Gallente
|
Posted - 2011.01.27 02:35:00 -
[699]
Originally by: Otto Schultzky In my humble opinion the best approach to "fixing" hybrid weapons is no a straight damage boost to a weapon system, that would favor Gallente more then Caldari, but an addition/ modification of:
Rate of Fire modifier (RoF * x.xx) to hybrid ammo;
Base Damage tweak of hybrid ammo, taking into account the RoF modifier;
Diversification of % Kin/Thermal base damage(70/30, 60/40, etc.);
Modification of exiting cap usage modifier;
*Possibly spiting ammo in 3 range gropes (-50%, 0%, +50%)? This way both factions get some what of an even boost?
|
Slovic Gustav
Gallente Avatar Dynasty Intergalactic Exports Group
|
Posted - 2011.01.27 03:00:00 -
[700]
Originally by: Ephemeron Edited by: Ephemeron on 27/01/2011 01:54:00 it would be a bit unfair if blasters had best damage AND best tracking.
It would make them more general purpose, easier to use. Damage should be high, but it should be hard to use. Damage should be high enough to make overcoming tracking difficulties a useful thing. Employ web + scram, take advantage of falloff, try match traverse velocity. Things that take real player skill. Cause if you get high damage and ease of use, then it's unbalanced.
I agree with you and I think the more diversity in weapon systems the better off PvP will be in the long run. However, the way Gallente ships are currently itĘs really hard to get into range and use blasters how they were ment to be used.
If they wonĘt fix the weapon systems (hybrids) or the ships (Gallente) or a combination of both then CCP needs to reconsider and rebalance lasers and projectile based weapon systems and even take a look at missiles. As it currently stands both hybrids and Gallente ships (sub capitol ships) are vastly underrepresented in the grand scheme of things.
Just take a look at evekill top 20. ItĘs quite easy to look at game balance from evekill top 20 because people will always gravitate towards what works best because this is a full loot PvP game. People will do anything and take any advantage that gives them a better chance to win. There are so few Gallente based weapon systems and ships because they don't win you fights (except Gallente capitol ships :P).
|
|
The Djego
Minmatar Hellequin Inc.
|
Posted - 2011.01.27 12:55:00 -
[701]
Originally by: Ephemeron it would be a bit unfair if blasters had best damage AND best tracking.
It would make them more general purpose, easier to use. Damage should be high, but it should be hard to use. Damage should be high enough to make overcoming tracking difficulties a useful thing. Employ web + scram, take advantage of falloff, try match traverse velocity. Things that take real player skill. Cause if you get high damage and ease of use, then it's unbalanced.
I would disagree here. The limiter is already the short range(plus fitting, ammo, cap use etc. if you want to include it), what makes it mostly a small gang and solo weapon.
In this scenarios it is mostly important that the gun performs a very solid job(better than other weapons in his engagement range and if you play it to the strength of it). It isn't difficult to apply very good damage to heavy tackled or ranged targets with lasers, it isn't difficult to apply damage with projectiles at a very huge range spectrum.
This only leaves close range for blasters, where they must outperform other guns by a huge margin, both in the ability to apply damage(mostly by a proper web instead of higher tracking) as well as by superior base damage to make them a viable choice over the other options again. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
|
Swynet
|
Posted - 2011.01.28 22:00:00 -
[702]
Edited by: Swynet on 28/01/2011 22:01:26
Originally by: Ephemeron it would be a bit unfair if blasters had best damage AND best tracking.
You should petition an GM because their exact answer is "...blasters are intended to have the best tracking and dps at close range of all weapons..." I will no quote the GM because has you know it's against the EULA.
The problem is that they don't work like is intended has you just said, and they are incapable to figure out this. Don't ask me wy because has you, all i can say is that either they are blind either none of them has ever used or uses them.
|
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics K162
|
Posted - 2011.01.28 23:13:00 -
[703]
Any news?
____ Racial Active tanking bonuses - fix or replace! |
Ephemeron
Lubricous Rebel Alliance of New Eden
|
Posted - 2011.01.28 23:26:00 -
[704]
Originally by: Pattern Clarc Any news?
So far the devs don't even recognize there is a problem.
They are looking at the game, but they should be looking at themselves. The devs have a problem, a personal problem that bleeds into bad game design.
|
Naomi Knight
Amarr
|
Posted - 2011.01.29 08:58:00 -
[705]
Originally by: Ephemeron
Originally by: Pattern Clarc Any news?
So far the devs don't even recognize there is a problem.
They are looking at the game, but they should be looking at themselves. The devs have a problem, a personal problem that bleeds into bad game design.
Oh no, your only good post so far, this is so true. Eve game balance sux. Worst is that there is nobody at CCP who does a thing to make it better. So making these threads wont do anything. Do they care if 90% of ppl agree something should be done about blaster, NO. Thats the problem.
|
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.01.31 11:18:00 -
[706]
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Anyway, TL;DR: Kin/Therm is a decent all around damage type, while it isnt specialized against any particular tanking style there is no situation apart from gallente/caldari t2 where it fails completely.
It only fails completely against half the t2 ships in the game. Luckily those T2 ships are fail and hardly anybody flies them in pvp.
|
Joss56
Unleashed' Fury
|
Posted - 2011.01.31 18:14:00 -
[707]
Originally by: X Gallentius
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Anyway, TL;DR: Kin/Therm is a decent all around damage type, while it isnt specialized against any particular tanking style there is no situation apart from gallente/caldari t2 where it fails completely.
It only fails completely against half the t2 ships in the game. Luckily those T2 ships are fail and hardly anybody flies them in pvp.
Good point.
(and bump) ________________________________________________
"You do realise you live on a globe, right? And that there places outside the USA/UK?"
|
Jahpahjay
|
Posted - 2011.02.08 02:37:00 -
[708]
I'm not sure, but I think people are really starting to give up on anything being changed with hybrids.
Nobody sane can keep trying to argue a point if the response continues to be indifference, and/or "works as intended" (which basically means they accomplished their original design, and if it doesn't actually work well in practice that's of no concern to them).
|
Joss56
Gallente Unleashed' Fury
|
Posted - 2011.02.08 05:10:00 -
[709]
Originally by: Jahpahjay I'm not sure, but I think people are really starting to give up on anything being changed with hybrids.
Nobody sane can keep trying to argue a point if the response continues to be indifference, and/or "works as intended" (which basically means they accomplished their original design, and if it doesn't actually work well in practice that's of no concern to them).
Then all is left to do is to give gallente/hybrids pilots wishing to, the refound of their sp so they don't have to waste more time training other races just because theirs sucks hard rather than for the fun of crosstrain.
I can perfectly understand that someone who's playing now since stone age don't care about this issue, he has the choice, while new/fresh players don't, they just get sucked for the 6 first months of their eve experience, and what a pleasent experience. ________________________________________________
"You do realise you live on a globe, right? And that there places outside the USA/UK?"
|
Alqualonde
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
|
Posted - 2011.02.08 09:22:00 -
[710]
Pulse lasers are better in every way than blasters as far as I can tell.
|
|
Merijin
|
Posted - 2011.02.08 16:01:00 -
[711]
Bump as well :).
|
Zephris
|
Posted - 2011.02.10 17:18:00 -
[712]
Bump. I am just going to quit EVE until they fix those. kthxbye.
|
Explosivesonhand
|
Posted - 2011.02.15 04:43:00 -
[713]
I'd love to see a better balance of ranges, the damages work out pretty well right now as is. Fully supported.
|
Kepakh
|
Posted - 2011.02.16 11:17:00 -
[714]
Originally by: Xahara
Solution: Either increase blasters' damage to match their ridiculous range or increase their ridiculous range to match their damage.
Same numbers caused Projectiles being FOTY.
I vote NO! for more ignorant changes as such.
|
Swynet
|
Posted - 2011.02.16 14:51:00 -
[715]
Originally by: Kepakh I vote NO! for more ignorant changes as such.
Perfect, let's all train Minmatar or Amarr and let Gallente/Caldari for noobs and fresh/easy killmails.
Works fine like this atm wy change it? ________________________________________________
Originally by: Goose99 In EVE, PVE can happen anywhere, anytime. Whenever you undock, you subject yourself to involuntary PVE.
|
Davader
|
Posted - 2011.02.18 14:51:00 -
[716]
Support
|
Skex Relbore
Gallente Skexcorp
|
Posted - 2011.02.18 17:56:00 -
[717]
At a minimum Blasters need a tracking boost. There is not a single situation in which a Mega out-damages a Tempest or Geddon beyond 12km yet there are plenty where those same ships out damage it under 12km.
I can accept super limited range if that limitation comes with an advantage in applied dps at that range.
Pretty much all a Laser or Projectile boat needs to do to minimize your DPS advantage is stop moving. Then your massive dps advantage comes down to about 50dps.
As far as I'm concerned blasters should have sufficient tracking to hit a similar sized target from 0-Optimal perfectly at realistic traversal. and it should definitley always hit better than AC's or Pulses at those ranges.
Yeah I get it Nightmarex a really good pilot can make blasters work against a crappy pilot. A really good pilot can make industrial work in combat against a crappy Dramiel that doesn't make an industrial a combat ship.
Blasters make a hell of a lot of sacrifices (cap usage, Ammo consumption, reload time,limited damage type, range) for little or no advantages. And that's just broken.
|
Swynet
|
Posted - 2011.02.18 18:27:00 -
[718]
Originally by: Jahpahjay I'm not sure, but I think people are really starting to give up on anything being changed with hybrids.
Whenever you can see the return of CCP's about this matter well yes getting tired of mass useless dev's blogs.
Has sisi, deleted. I'm ok to be there if I win something usefull in TQ like blasters/hybrids/gallente ships fix, some sp or just possibility of reallocation of some sp, but since feedback is useless better spend 15min playing any freee fps than spend time on that useless server for useless feeedback resulting in useless decisions that will need patches a few days latter and keep issues like those mentioned in this/other related threads unsolved. ________________________________________________
Originally by: Goose99 In EVE, PVE can happen anywhere, anytime. Whenever you undock, you subject yourself to involuntary PVE.
|
Styria Strike
Amarr Axial tilt The Babylon Consortium
|
Posted - 2011.02.20 00:38:00 -
[719]
blasters need a boost!
|
Taisuke Black
|
Posted - 2011.03.01 07:22:00 -
[720]
I was sad when nobody responded to my concept, but here is my idea for how to fix up blasters:
The Problem of Hybrids
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 .. 26 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |