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RAW23	Posted - 2009.10.21 12:05:00 - [31] Edited by: RAW23 on 21/10/2009 12:05:08 Originally by: Roguehalo "Finally, I don't think the fact that someone pulled a contract scam at some point years ago renders them unfit to run a business or be trusted with a loan" It's what investors think mate not you Sorry. Am I not allowed to be an investor now? Or to give an opinion unless I invest? A meaningful response that justifies the position would be more useful than telling me that my opinions simply don't count. Edit - Or did you write that assuming that I am the OP? That would make more sense.
Roguehalo Caldari Kimoto Innovations	Posted - 2009.10.21 12:12:00 - [32] Originally by: RAW23 Edited by: RAW23 on 21/10/2009 12:05:08 Originally by: Roguehalo "Finally, I don't think the fact that someone pulled a contract scam at some point years ago renders them unfit to run a business or be trusted with a loan" It's what investors think mate not you Sorry. Am I not allowed to be an investor now? Or to give an opinion unless I invest? A meaningful response that justifies the position would be more useful than telling me that my opinions simply don't count. Edit - Or did you write that assuming that I am the OP? That would make more sense. Yes you are quite correct.....I thought I was replying to the op......All these RAWs are a bit confusing That doesn't change the sentiments of my post though......investors will decide the relevance of a scamming history to the worth of a bond offer. If, as a potential investor, you've decided it's not very relevant then I guess you'll be out on a limb there.
RAW23	Posted - 2009.10.21 12:18:00 - [33] Originally by: Roguehalo Originally by: RAW23 Edited by: RAW23 on 21/10/2009 12:05:08 Originally by: Roguehalo "Finally, I don't think the fact that someone pulled a contract scam at some point years ago renders them unfit to run a business or be trusted with a loan" It's what investors think mate not you Sorry. Am I not allowed to be an investor now? Or to give an opinion unless I invest? A meaningful response that justifies the position would be more useful than telling me that my opinions simply don't count. Edit - Or did you write that assuming that I am the OP? That would make more sense. Yes you are quite correct.....I thought I was replying to the op......All these RAWs are a bit confusing That doesn't change the sentiments of my post though......investors will decide the relevance of a scamming history to the worth of a bond offer. If, as a potential investor, you've decided it's not very relevant then I guess you'll be out on a limb there. No, no. I quite agree with what you say about it being an important risk factor that needs evaluating. I just wouldn't go so far as to categorically rule out any offering at any time from any one who has ever scammed in any form. And I agree that all these RAWs are getting confusing - time for a cull perhaps.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.10.21 13:25:00 - [34] Originally by: RAW23 Originally by: cosmoray Originally by: Signore Kaeota whats with all the toons begining with 'Raw' lately? I thought that so I checked all his posts and didn't see a connection, but as OP is only 7 days old it is a bit fishy. Frankly, this sucks. Neither this guy nor RawBlood have anything to do with me and I'm a bit ****ed off that they're screwing up my brand. I hope nobody will conflate me with them and that people will be able to see the difference between my bond offer and these other two. Earlier in the post someone said that this is an alt of Ronucti. Was that just a throwaway comment or is he really? If so, that will be really annoying as I helped Ronucti get started trading. Finally, I don't think the fact that someone pulled a contract scam at some point years ago renders them unfit to run a business or be trusted with a loan - it does, however, introduce a risk factor that needs to be compensated for in the return offered. I expect a lot of people come to eve full of the propaganda about it being a scammer's paradise and think that this is an integral part of the game. You wouldn't really know that anyone has a major ideological problem with scamming unless you stumbled across the MD forum. The fact that someone has scammed in eve tells you about as much about their real ethical character as the fact that someone has bluffed in poker. What would be more useful would be to know whether they have scammed anyone they have built a relationship with, rather than faceless individuals through the use of contracts. Also, anyone who invested in Yih's scheme should, at the least, be very moderate in their tone when saying that any former scammer is uninvestable. All that said, the offer has plenty of other aspects that make it sound highly risky and unattractive. Bluffing in poker isnt the same as scamming, not even close, cheating in poker, thats scamming, having an ace up your sleeve thats scamming. Bluffing in poker, is like having an item listed several time on the market, making it look like there was competetion.
flakeys Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.10.21 13:31:00 - [35] Originally by: Roguehalo That doesn't change the sentiments of my post though......investors will decide the relevance of a scamming history to the worth of a bond offer. If, as a potential investor, you've decided it's not very relevant then I guess you'll be out on a limb there. This coming from you is SO ****ing funny.
RAW23	Posted - 2009.10.21 13:42:00 - [36] Originally by: Ji Sama Bluffing in poker isnt the same as scamming, not even close, cheating in poker, thats scamming, having an ace up your sleeve thats scamming. Bluffing in poker, is like having an item listed several time on the market, making it look like there was competetion. My point is that both involve deceit and misrepresentation; I'm not claiming they are identical, merely analogous in this sense. Hiding an ace up your sleeve is outside the game mechanics of poker; it is equivalent to hacking rather than scamming in eve because it is cheating at the game. Deception is permitted within the game rules of eve, as deception is in poker. If someone "lies" to me in a poker game by representing a hand he doesn't have, this does not reflect on his character in general because he is "playing the game". Similarly, people playing the eve game (rather than the MD game, which may have different consensual rules as a meta-game of eve) can reasonably scam without that reflecting on their rl character. However, I do expect that people who enjoy scamming in the wider game are considerably more likely to be willing to scam when it comes to an investment.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.10.21 13:49:00 - [37] Edited by: Ji Sama on 21/10/2009 13:49:14 I disagree :D It is also within the IRL mechanics to scam. Ethics and morality, should stop a person from scamming, even though the mechanics of his enviroment allows it :D
RAW23	Posted - 2009.10.21 13:55:00 - [38] Originally by: Ji Sama Edited by: Ji Sama on 21/10/2009 13:49:14 I disagree :D It is also within the IRL mechanics to scam. Ethics and morality, should stop a person from scamming, even though the mechanics of his enviroment allows it :D Would you apply that to deceit in general? And if not, how do you distinguish scamming from deception more widely? What makes it a special case? Just interested - these aren't meant to be aggressive questions.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.10.21 14:19:00 - [39] Edited by: Ji Sama on 21/10/2009 14:22:03 Originally by: RAW23 Edited by: RAW23 on 21/10/2009 14:11:58 Originally by: Ji Sama Edited by: Ji Sama on 21/10/2009 13:49:14 I disagree :D It is also within the IRL mechanics to scam. Ethics and morality, should stop a person from scamming, even though the mechanics of his enviroment allows it :D Would you apply that to deceit in general? And if not, how do you distinguish scamming from deception more widely? What makes it a special case? Just interested - these aren't meant to be aggressive questions. Edit - It may be within the physical mechanics of rl to scam but it is outside the game rules of most societies. Similarly, it is within the physical mechanics of eve to be hackable ... Where eve and rl differ is that scamming is widely accepted even within the social mechanics of the game (although not on MD) and is promoted as a fun part of the game by the developers. Opting in to playing eve is opting into this social framework. Clearly, ethics and morality don't transfer straightforwardly from real life to eve, otherwise my attempts at monopolistic behaviour would be frowned on even more than small scale contract scams. This is to say nothing of pirates ... I believe there is a CLEAR line, i also believe that every person knows whats right and whats wrong. Me selling a raven as a navy raven, or buying a plex at 40M under the pretence that i wanted to pay 400M is a scam. Me manipulating the market data, through the filling of my own orders, or putting more buy/sell orders up to make the market look more populated is deception. So is using alts in neutral corps to scout/haul for you, or even sending a decoy hauler one way, while sending the covops transport the other way. scam = wrong deception = grey area legit = right I move between the grey area and the right area, NEVER crossing over into the wrong area, imho. And its very easy to so, as i started saying; EVERYONE knows right from wrong. Monopoly isnt a bad thing as such, only if its reinforced by some unbalanced mechanic. Everyone can make a monopoly. I do think that ethics and morality translates directly into eve. I dont differentiate between Ji Sama and my RL identity. I am Ji Sama and Ji Sama is me, if i can scam with Ji Sama, i can scam IRL. And its a choice i make not to do.
Raw Yard Raw INC	Posted - 2009.10.21 14:20:00 - [40] Tbh i stopped scamming after a guy convoed me two years ago on hawkster, and yes thy were faceless contract scams. Morality kicked in and gav me the boot. Also i am in no way affiliated with RAW23 and RaWBlood. And thank you for saying that RAW23 i hope that it will calm down the flames ---------- Need capital BPC packs at a great price? Look no further: Great BPC packs at Great Prices

Claire Voyant	Posted - 2009.10.21 15:02:00 - [41] I find it funny that the hardcore capitalists in MD seem to have such high ethical standards. Let me tell you about the time I sold an Iteron Mark III for 800 million isk, and you tell me what you would have done. Some scammer had been doing the usual thing, buying up all the 800K Itty3s in Jita, trading them at silly high levels to raise the average price, and relisting them at 800M. I decided to bring in freighter loads of them, selling them at something like 1,500K, or twice the usual price. I figured the manipulator would be forced to buy up my stock and I would make a nice fat profit. Of course you all know where this is going. Some careless guy tries to buy a 800M itty and I get the sale, at the scam price. So what should I have done? Should I have: A) Given the extra money to the manipulator, who obviously did all the hard work and earned it; B) Returned the money to the rich fool who probably never missed it anyway; C) Given it to charity; or D) Used the money towards a nice expensive BPO to research and put to good use.
flakeys Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.10.21 15:11:00 - [42] Originally by: Claire Voyant I find it funny that the hardcore capitalists in MD seem to have such high ethical standards. Let me tell you about the time I sold an Iteron Mark III for 800 million isk, and you tell me what you would have done. Some scammer had been doing the usual thing, buying up all the 800K Itty3s in Jita, trading them at silly high levels to raise the average price, and relisting them at 800M. I decided to bring in freighter loads of them, selling them at something like 1,500K, or twice the usual price. I figured the manipulator would be forced to buy up my stock and I would make a nice fat profit. Of course you all know where this is going. Some careless guy tries to buy a 800M itty and I get the sale, at the scam price. So what should I have done? Should I have: A) Given the extra money to the manipulator, who obviously did all the hard work and earned it; B) Returned the money to the rich fool who probably never missed it anyway; C) Given it to charity; or D) Used the money towards a nice expensive BPO to research and put to good use. The person buying from the markte knows for sure he will buy that item and can see the price.It is unscammable and unchangable when placed.There is a BIG difference with that and scamcontracts. I sell you a laptop with certain specifics and brand , and charge you 500 dollar more then market price.I did not scam i pushed up the price. I sell you a laptop and SAY it has certain specifics and is from a certain brand while i know it is not the case.I scammed you. Also in this case someone asks for investments.Offcourse if he admits having scammed in the past it will be part of the discussion.
Magnu Stormhawk	Posted - 2009.10.21 15:25:00 - [43] Originally by: Claire Voyant I find it funny that the hardcore capitalists in MD seem to have such high ethical standards. Let me tell you about the time I sold an Iteron Mark III for 800 million isk, and you tell me what you would have done. Some scammer had been doing the usual thing, buying up all the 800K Itty3s in Jita, trading them at silly high levels to raise the average price, and relisting them at 800M. I decided to bring in freighter loads of them, selling them at something like 1,500K, or twice the usual price. I figured the manipulator would be forced to buy up my stock and I would make a nice fat profit. Of course you all know where this is going. Some careless guy tries to buy a 800M itty and I get the sale, at the scam price. So what should I have done? Should I have: A) Given the extra money to the manipulator, who obviously did all the hard work and earned it; B) Returned the money to the rich fool who probably never missed it anyway; C) Given it to charity; or D) Used the money towards a nice expensive BPO to research and put to good use. The ethical issue you raise misses one vital element - intent. This debate can go on and on. There is a clear enough line behind which one can stand and know they are not scamming. Anyone stepping over this should expect to be treated with hostility, and anyone stepping over it and then asking for a loan should be prepared to burn in flames.
RAW23	Posted - 2009.10.21 15:56:00 - [44] Edited by: RAW23 on 21/10/2009 16:03:05 Originally by: Magnu Stormhawk The ethical issue you raise misses one vital element - intent. This debate can go on and on. There is a clear enough line behind which one can stand and know they are not scamming. Anyone stepping over this should expect to be treated with hostility, and anyone stepping over it and then asking for a loan should be prepared to burn in flames. What exactly is it that makes scamming morally reprehensible? Is it the element of deceit? In which case all deception should be treated as morally problematic (possibly including the hoarding/withholding of information). Or is it the fact that you are screwing someone over / taking advantage of them? If the latter, why aren't other similar tactics condemned? Is it that honesty is morally good or that taking care of other's interests is morally good? It seems fairly clear that people can be screwed over without deception. Is this ok? Is there no moral problem with the use of brute force or the exploitation of one's wealth to force someone else out of a market. These may be honest approaches to ****ing people up but they are no less nasty (morally bad) under most systems of morals. Edit - BTW, if the OP want's to show his appreciation he could start by biomassing this toon and starting again with a different name. Also, a new name for the company would be nice too - I'd hate to have to change mine.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.21 17:43:00 - [45] Quote: Finally, I don't think the fact that someone pulled a contract scam at some point years ago renders them unfit to run a business or be trusted with a loan - it does, however, introduce a risk factor that needs to be compensated for in the return offered It's a matter of personal taste. Given the MANY people issuing bonds, investors can be picky and choose the best of breed. They can get a 2B @ 8% bond off a guy who scammed 3 years ago, or they can get a 2B @ 8% bond of a guy who never scammed. Who are they going to pick? Quote: What would be more useful would be to know whether they have scammed anyone they have built a relationship with, rather than faceless individuals through the use of contracts I am sorry but a crime does not become acceptable just because it's done on faceless individuals. It's an act of respect - or lack thereof. Now, you could minimize this by saying this is but an internet spaceships game, that people who are complete jerks in EvE are saints IRL... I don't eat it. If they can conceive "evil", they somewhere inside them are evil. A bias that IRL might be under control, but does not make them but white painted and perfumed tombs. Quote: Where eve and rl differ is that scamming is widely accepted even within the social mechanics of the game (although not on MD) and is promoted as a fun part of the game by the developers. Opting in to playing eve is opting into this social framework. It's exactly like unconsensual PvP: the victim might beg to differ about how fun it is. The devs made a sandbox for everyone to find their fun but what is fun for a scammer is not for the scammed. Since the scammed tends to be the guy with the money, when the scammer gets back and asks for a loan... well... the result is predictable. Quote: Or is it the fact that you are screwing someone over / taking advantage of them? If the latter, why aren't other similar tactics condemned? Is it that honesty is morally good or that taking care of other's interests is morally good? It seems fairly clear that people can be screwed over without deception. Is this ok? Is there no moral problem with the use of brute force or the exploitation of one's wealth to force someone else out of a market. These may be honest approaches to ***ing people up but they are no less nasty (morally bad) under most systems of morals. Edit - BTW, if the OP want's to show his appreciation he could start by biomassing this toon and starting again with a different name. Also, a new name for the company would be nice too - I'd hate to have to change mine There's a definite difference between scamming vs selling something (but selling for a truly gouging price is also bad imho). The guy who is getting "ripped" for a price, can defend himself. He is put in a setup where he can decide to accept being ripped (and pay attention) or not. The guy who is getting scammed, is usually presented a fake low price and game mechanics are used so that he cannot defend himself. While ripping people is not that great, it's still seen as more acceptable "PvP" than just scientifically slaughtering them with no chance. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read* http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Raw Yard Raw INC	Posted - 2009.10.21 23:45:00 - [46] Ok i dont want this forum a debate of ethical standards, i wish to get back to finding a investor to invest into my plan, i can post a more detialed plan for the first 20 days i you wish, the rest is really rinse and repeat. ---------- Need capital BPC packs at a great price? Look no further: Great BPC packs at Great Prices
RaWBLooD	Posted - 2009.10.22 00:28:00 - [47] Originally by: Ji Sama I believe there is a CLEAR line, i also believe that every person knows whats right and whats wrong. Me selling a raven as a navy raven, or buying a plex at 40M under the pretence that i wanted to pay 400M is a scam. The pretense was that there was a contract buying 10 for 40 billion. The logs posted also show how none of it was serious and anyone in the scc-lounge can see that's the usual way of chat in that channel. Originally by: Ji Sama Me manipulating the market data, through the filling of my own orders, or putting more buy/sell orders up to make the market look more populated is deception. So is using alts in neutral corps to scout/haul for you, or even sending a decoy hauler one way, while sending the covops transport the other way. scam = wrong deception = grey area legit = right I move between the grey area and the right area, NEVER crossing over into the wrong area, imho. And its very easy to so, as i started saying; EVERYONE knows right from wrong. Monopoly isnt a bad thing as such, only if its reinforced by some unbalanced mechanic. Everyone can make a monopoly. I do think that ethics and morality translates directly into eve. I dont differentiate between Ji Sama and my RL identity. I am Ji Sama and Ji Sama is me, if i can scam with Ji Sama, i can scam IRL. And its a choice i make not to do. Making a 2 billion isk price for a ship that costs 2 million on the market is just as much a scam as doing it on contract. miners-you can: switch, rob, wardec, nerf, scam them, buy below market, pirate them on their way to sell. mining < trading, ratting, manufacturing from market bought minerals,they still wont go away
Raw Yard Raw INC	Posted - 2009.10.22 01:21:00 - [48] Originally by: Ji Sama Originally by: RAW23 Originally by: cosmoray Originally by: Signore Kaeota whats with all the toons begining with 'Raw' lately? I thought that so I checked all his posts and didn't see a connection, but as OP is only 7 days old it is a bit fishy. Frankly, this sucks. Neither this guy nor RawBlood have anything to do with me and I'm a bit ****ed off that they're screwing up my brand. I hope nobody will conflate me with them and that people will be able to see the difference between my bond offer and these other two. Earlier in the post someone said that this is an alt of Ronucti. Was that just a throwaway comment or is he really? If so, that will be really annoying as I helped Ronucti get started trading. Finally, I don't think the fact that someone pulled a contract scam at some point years ago renders them unfit to run a business or be trusted with a loan - it does, however, introduce a risk factor that needs to be compensated for in the return offered. I expect a lot of people come to eve full of the propaganda about it being a scammer's paradise and think that this is an integral part of the game. You wouldn't really know that anyone has a major ideological problem with scamming unless you stumbled across the MD forum. The fact that someone has scammed in eve tells you about as much about their real ethical character as the fact that someone has bluffed in poker. What would be more useful would be to know whether they have scammed anyone they have built a relationship with, rather than faceless individuals through the use of contracts. Also, anyone who invested in Yih's scheme should, at the least, be very moderate in their tone when saying that any former scammer is uninvestable. All that said, the offer has plenty of other aspects that make it sound highly risky and unattractive. Bluffing in poker isnt the same as scamming, not even close, cheating in poker, thats scamming, having an ace up your sleeve thats scamming. Bluffing in poker, is like having an item listed several time on the market, making it look like there was competetion. Umm bluffing in poker is scamming, and cheating is against the EULA ---------- Need capital BPC packs at a great price? Look no further: Great BPC packs at Great Prices
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.10.22 01:33:00 - [49] We disagree on what scamming is then :D Bluffing in poker is deception. Cheating in poker is scamming. Alot of bad poker players scam without knowing it. Saying for instance; i raise 1000 dollars, while putting in 1500 in chips, thats a scam. Or saying all in, and then going against it, its also scamming. There is a fine line however, and rawBLOOD mentions it. Selling a ship worth 2M for 2B on the market, is very close to scamming. Though i still wouldnt call it scamming. When people try to scam me ingame, the first try to social engineer me. They convo me, if i wanna buy something cheap, then they say something about their contracts being full, and they want to do a manual trade etc. I always play along though for while, playing a dumb eve player, that cant put the right number into the trade window, or saying i clicked accept, and its bugged so we have to try again. They are pretty desperate, my record is 10+ retries and i got the scammer to relog 2 times. :D Off topic sorry, but fun story :p
Raw Yard Raw INC	Posted - 2009.10.22 01:33:00 - [50] Originally by: Ji Sama We disagree on what scamming is then :D Bluffing in poker is deception. Cheating in poker is scamming. Alot of bad poker players scam without knowing it. Saying for instance; i raise 1000 dollars, while putting in 1500 in chips, thats a scam. Or saying all in, and then going against it, its also scamming. There is a fine line however, and rawBLOOD mentions it. Selling a ship worth 2M for 2B on the market, is very close to scamming. Though i still wouldnt call it scamming. When people try to scam me ingame, the first try to social engineer me. They convo me, if i wanna buy something cheap, then they say something about their contracts being full, and they want to do a manual trade etc. I always play along though for while, playing a dumb eve player, that cant put the right number into the trade window, or saying i clicked accept, and its bugged so we have to try again. They are pretty desperate, my record is 10+ retries and i got the scammer to relog 2 times. :D Off topic sorry, but fun story :p Then scamming in eve is deception... ---------- Need capital BPC packs at a great price? Look no further: Great BPC packs at Great Prices

Tesal	Posted - 2009.10.22 01:49:00 - [51] Even criminal organizations like the mafia and drug cartels live up to basic contract standards. In some cases, criminal organizations have higher contract standards than regular business contracts, where you are expected to go to extreme lengths to live up to your contract. Even in a world of criminals, there are rules you are expected to follow. I consider a scam to be the breaking a verbal or written contract, where the intent is clear on the goods and services being exchanged, and a fair price has been negotiated. It is both a theft and a betrayal and it violates a contract. In short you gave your word and you failed to live up to it. If your word isn't any good, you can't sign a meaningful contract. Raw Yard, your word isn't any good. never stop posting...with alts. Now you know what it is to be owned. Mittani alt says hi. I win. You lose. For the honor of spit stained basement dwelling virgins.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.10.22 01:52:00 - [52] Originally by: Raw Yard Originally by: Ji Sama We disagree on what scamming is then :D Bluffing in poker is deception. Cheating in poker is scamming. Alot of bad poker players scam without knowing it. Saying for instance; i raise 1000 dollars, while putting in 1500 in chips, thats a scam. Or saying all in, and then going against it, its also scamming. There is a fine line however, and rawBLOOD mentions it. Selling a ship worth 2M for 2B on the market, is very close to scamming. Though i still wouldnt call it scamming. When people try to scam me ingame, the first try to social engineer me. They convo me, if i wanna buy something cheap, then they say something about their contracts being full, and they want to do a manual trade etc. I always play along though for while, playing a dumb eve player, that cant put the right number into the trade window, or saying i clicked accept, and its bugged so we have to try again. They are pretty desperate, my record is 10+ retries and i got the scammer to relog 2 times. :D Off topic sorry, but fun story :p Then scamming in eve is deception... Thats your opinion :D And I disagree, do not twist my words.
Raw Yard Raw INC	Posted - 2009.10.22 01:58:00 - [53] Originally by: Tesal Even criminal organizations like the mafia and drug cartels live up to basic contract standards. In some cases, criminal organizations have higher contract standards than regular business contracts, where you are expected to go to extreme lengths to live up to your contract. Even in a world of criminals, there are rules you are expected to follow. I consider a scam to be the breaking a verbal or written contract, where the intent is clear on the goods and services being exchanged, and a fair price has been negotiated. It is both a theft and a betrayal and it violates a contract. In short you gave your word and you failed to live up to it. If your word isn't any good, you can't sign a meaningful contract. Raw Yard, your word isn't any good. Explain that my word inst any good after 2 years of good deals, legit contracts, some fun pvp kills/loses, and i've lived up to all of my ransoms. I really intend to go through with this bond, i see it as a great way to get some profit flowing and seems like an awesome deal for the investor. ---------- Need capital BPC packs at a great price? Look no further: Great BPC packs at Great Prices
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.10.22 02:03:00 - [54] Originally by: Raw Yard Originally by: Tesal Even criminal organizations like the mafia and drug cartels live up to basic contract standards. In some cases, criminal organizations have higher contract standards than regular business contracts, where you are expected to go to extreme lengths to live up to your contract. Even in a world of criminals, there are rules you are expected to follow. I consider a scam to be the breaking a verbal or written contract, where the intent is clear on the goods and services being exchanged, and a fair price has been negotiated. It is both a theft and a betrayal and it violates a contract. In short you gave your word and you failed to live up to it. If your word isn't any good, you can't sign a meaningful contract. Raw Yard, your word isn't any good. Explain that my word inst any good after 2 years of good deals, legit contracts, some fun pvp kills/loses, and i've lived up to all of my ransoms. I really intend to go through with this bond, i see it as a great way to get some profit flowing and seems like an awesome deal for the investor. The problem is that no one wants to invest. Once a new bond fails to get any traction after a few pages or a few days, it is DEAD. Time to try something else. Even if you are a stand up guy, low sec operations have been a total bust for MD investments.
Tesal	Posted - 2009.10.22 02:12:00 - [55] Originally by: Raw Yard Originally by: Tesal Even criminal organizations like the mafia and drug cartels live up to basic contract standards. In some cases, criminal organizations have higher contract standards than regular business contracts, where you are expected to go to extreme lengths to live up to your contract. Even in a world of criminals, there are rules you are expected to follow. I consider a scam to be the breaking a verbal or written contract, where the intent is clear on the goods and services being exchanged, and a fair price has been negotiated. It is both a theft and a betrayal and it violates a contract. In short you gave your word and you failed to live up to it. If your word isn't any good, you can't sign a meaningful contract. Raw Yard, your word isn't any good. Explain that my word inst any good after 2 years of good deals, legit contracts, some fun pvp kills/loses, and i've lived up to all of my ransoms. I really intend to go through with this bond, i see it as a great way to get some profit flowing and seems like an awesome deal for the investor. Post with your main. never stop posting...with alts. Now you know what it is to be owned. Mittani alt says hi. I win. You lose. For the honor of spit stained basement dwelling virgins.
Raw Yard Raw INC	Posted - 2009.10.22 02:14:00 - [56] like i stated before i no longer own him... why don't people READ everything before they post there opinion ---------- Need capital BPC packs at a great price? Look no further: Great BPC packs at Great Prices
Tesal	Posted - 2009.10.22 02:21:00 - [57] Originally by: Raw Yard like i stated before i no longer own him... why don't people READ everything before they post there opinion I don't believe you. never stop posting...with alts. Now you know what it is to be owned. Mittani alt says hi. I win. You lose. For the honor of spit stained basement dwelling virgins.
Frenden Dax Dax Acquisitions	Posted - 2009.10.22 02:30:00 - [58] Originally by: Raw Yard like i stated before i no longer own him... why don't people READ everything before they post there opinion Capitalization: Fail. Spelling: Fail. Grammar: Fail. Punctuation: Fail. Conclusion: Fail. -- This ~~scam~~ bond attempt has failed. Either go away, re-roll, and come back with a less ~~honest~~ sketchy proposal, or just go away. Originally by: Karanth Or, in other words, random people can't usurp rights from government because they are insane/bitter/vengeful/made of potato salad.
Raw Yard Raw INC	Posted - 2009.10.22 02:37:00 - [59] Edited by: Raw Yard on 22/10/2009 02:37:22 No, I wish to go through with this bond, and I will go through with it. ---------- Need capital BPC packs at a great price? Look no further: Great BPC packs at Great Prices
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.10.22 02:38:00 - [60] Good luck finding investors :D



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