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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Padaxes
Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.10.29 18:00:00 -
[181]
They dumbed down the skill reqs for exploration when it first came out , I hate it when they do this.
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ThePhoniex
Amarr Hedion University
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Posted - 2009.10.29 19:31:00 -
[182]
HTFU stop complaining and whinning like carebears about ninja salvaging
WAHHHH other people can hack my cans now.. WAHHHH other people salvage my wrecks now..
Letting more people experience the entire game is a good thing(this is the same as pushing people into 0.0), why should CCP spend time and effort on something that only 1% of the playerbase ever bothers with.(or 17% in the case of 0.0) We are not talking about removing reqs for modules/ships which still take monthes to train for and monthes more to fly "well". We are talking about game mechanics (thermo) and game content (hacking/archaeology).. those are really the only 2 things that had their reqs lowered in any real amount. As a game design philosphy you should limit players access to items and limit power; not their access to playing the game. Since everyone here seems to know everything about WOW, the comparison examples would be preventing WOW players from using any spells or ranged attacks in the game (thermo) or not being able to go into a instance/dungeon (hacking/arch). Like playing starcraft without unit abilities or without battle-net..
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Treji
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Posted - 2009.10.29 21:55:00 -
[183]
Actually, since I have to pay for the pleasure of playing this game, and I have now essentially 'wasted' a fair number of days training for exploration, I reckon I'm due some recompense...
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NxN
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Posted - 2009.10.30 02:58:00 -
[184]
Here is a tip for you CPP.
You wanna more subscribers and attract more players, be more newbie friendly, then
FIX THE UI AND FONTS, SO IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE DAMN AUTOCAD SOFTWARE WRITTEN FOR AMIGA!
I have tried Eve 4 times, before I get into it.. and the interface was the hardest thing to get used to. Not the skill system, not the combat but freaking tiny fonts unreadable on 24 inches screens. And dozens of windows with tiny title bars and scrollbars.
ששש ≡v≡ |
Padaxes
Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.10.30 14:43:00 -
[185]
Whats the point in having skills if everyone has all of them, wheres the specialisation , the opportunity to train to a niche and benefit from your expertise ?
As it stands every nub in the game can probe but at least occasionally I get asked to come help Hack some cans or something. Encouraging team work, crazy stuff like that :p
Not to mention the weeks wasted training pre reqs that then get nerfed later.
Having professions that take time to train forces people to actually make decisions rather than just train everything to lvl 4 and sit pretty knowing there's only a 5% difference between them and someone that's put the time in.
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Elisean
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2009.10.30 17:18:00 -
[186]
Originally by: NxN Here is a tip for you CPP.
You wanna more subscribers and attract more players, be more newbie friendly, then
FIX THE UI AND FONTS, SO IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE DAMN AUTOCAD SOFTWARE WRITTEN FOR AMIGA!
I have tried Eve 4 times, before I get into it.. and the interface was the hardest thing to get used to. Not the skill system, not the combat but freaking tiny fonts unreadable on 24 inches screens. And dozens of windows with tiny title bars and scrollbars.
it'll never happen : (
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Jagga Spikes
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.10.30 19:28:00 -
[187]
Edited by: Jagga Spikes on 30/10/2009 19:28:00 skill requirements only serve to keep us p(l)aying longer. fewer there are, the better. let people play and have fun.
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HeliosGal
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.10.30 19:57:00 -
[188]
Originally by: Padaxes Whats the point in having skills if everyone has all of them, wheres the specialisation , the opportunity to train to a niche and benefit from your expertise ?
As it stands every nub in the game can probe but at least occasionally I get asked to come help Hack some cans or something. Encouraging team work, crazy stuff like that :p
Not to mention the weeks wasted training pre reqs that then get nerfed later.
Having professions that take time to train forces people to actually make decisions rather than just train everything to lvl 4 and sit pretty knowing there's only a 5% difference between them and someone that's put the time in.
ccp may be using the lower skils to form the basis for tech 3 mods. think ahead tech 3 modules mooted its likley they will become the new level 5 next year. CCP has reasons for doing things either gameplay or business decision Signature - CCP what this game needs is more variance in PVE aspects and a little bit less PVP focus, more content more varied level 1-4 missions more than just 10 per faction high sec low sec and 00 |
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation
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Posted - 2009.11.01 01:19:00 -
[189]
Originally by: Padaxes Whats the point in having skills if everyone has all of them, wheres the specialisation , the opportunity to train to a niche and benefit from your expertise ?
As it stands every nub in the game can probe but at least occasionally I get asked to come help Hack some cans or something. Encouraging team work, crazy stuff like that :p
Not to mention the weeks wasted training pre reqs that then get nerfed later.
Having professions that take time to train forces people to actually make decisions rather than just train everything to lvl 4 and sit pretty knowing there's only a 5% difference between them and someone that's put the time in.
I support this statement.
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Ai Mei
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Posted - 2009.11.06 06:40:00 -
[190]
Anyword on whether they changed the skills back?
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Zenst
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.11.10 03:49:00 -
[191]
Originally by: CCP Lemur I fail to see how this is dumbing down EVE. <SNIP>
You know that explains so much of eve its like scary. But to answear your ignorance with one word - specialisation.
No!, ok let me explain some more then. As it stands many avenues and professions in eve have over time been either ignored or dumbed down to the stage that its almost a FPS, if you want to do a FPS go write one, dont turn eve into one.
Over the past couple of years many aspects of eve have basicly had no love or expansion whatsoever and for any player who's played the game for even over a year that does start to get to them. Reason being is that they have to branch out to other aspects like flying capitals or other race ships, maybe they dont want to do that but when skills have been reduced to a few months then thats all they have left as an option.
Perish the thought you have skills like advanced cruiser control that add's like ew 1% bonus to the ship and take like half a year or so to train, not oevrybody would take it or indeed train it but at least those who have bothered to pay your ruddy wages over the years would have an opertunity to specilise in what they want and not be forced to respec something else as they have totaly trained everything they wanted for what they wanted to do.
I hope that clears up your ignorance on what is meant by dumbing down eve, if not perhaps you could collectivly get together with the other dev's and try a sudoku puzzle and then you will grasp what dumbing down actualy is
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.11.10 06:07:00 -
[192]
Originally by: CCP Lemur I fail to see how this is dumbing down EVE. It is at most less time spent waiting for skills. How is less waiting making it any easier or your words less undumb?
Can we then please have ALL level 5 prerequisites removed?
Because if your argument is true, then it is true of course for all skills.
And why do we need prerequisites at all anyway?? Makes no sense to have them. They slows you only down, waiting for skills to complete!
Guys ... what are you smoking there at CCP???
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NeoXatrix
Dogs Chasing Cars
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Posted - 2009.11.10 08:53:00 -
[193]
All the people complaining about the lowered requirements, think about a few things for just a second.
First off, even though a noob can access those skills faster it doesn't mean that he's going to be good at it. Meaning they may try it for a few days and give up on it because they can't find that cash-cow site.
Survey V - Isn't that used for the high end moon probes?
There's also a "big picture" that a lot of people are failing to see. They could be setting us "Veterans" up for Tech 3 mods. Think about it: "Why would I want to use Tech 2, when the Tech 3 requirements are identical?"
Initially I was mad about the changes, but then started thinking about the possibility of expanding the Tech 3 market. I hate using my Tengu fitted with Tech 2 mods...it just doesn't feel right, like I'm dumbing it down or something.
Another thing, why wouldn't we want new players to experience more of Eve? That gives the PvP'ers more targets to shoot.
In the long run, I think everyone will benefit from it even though it seems to nullify all the skill training time it took to do something that is now considered "basic."
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Pesets
The Hunt Club
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Posted - 2009.11.10 09:47:00 -
[194]
Edited by: Pesets on 10/11/2009 09:49:08 The problem with specialization is, you don't know what's worth it and what isn't. To try a bit of everything is a perfectly feasible desire, because then you can actually make a conscious choice about what you want to specialize in. In this respect, the new probing is much better because it doesn't make you spend weeks before you can try it and realize it sucks and not for you. But although you "can" scan in just a rookie ship with just Astrometrics I trained, you really need the relevant skills to do it properly and efficiently. Of course all to V are more or less useless now, but then it's not like you totally had to have them before...
I personally hate the lower thermodynamics prereqs, as it takes overheating from being an "ace in the sleeve" of a truly dedicated combat character, into being just another "everyone must have". But i'm not a part of game design team, so the point is moot.
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Rezard
Minmatar Fornax Chemica
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Posted - 2009.11.10 10:04:00 -
[195]
Edited by: Rezard on 10/11/2009 10:04:21 I had been thinking about spending those 10 days on Energy Management V to overload modules, but since I read this then I'll use my 10 days to something more, the lulz to everyone else but to me is cool :p
Actually pretty awesome sig I'm stealin' it.
I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Deadspace ships on fire off the shoulder of Black Rise.
I watched sift probes glitter in the dark near the EvE gate.
All those moments will be lost in time....like tears in rain.
Time....to die. I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Deadspace ships on fire off the shoulder of Black Rise.
I watched sift probes glitter in the dark near the EvE gate.
All those moments will |
Kyusoath Orillian
Broski Enterprises No Fun Allowed
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Posted - 2009.11.10 10:34:00 -
[196]
this change is welcome in my opinion, but please consider making advanced skills above them, for example, Advanced Hacking etc, improving hacking in some way for specialists.
5% reduction in cpu need,cap use, cycle time etc.
prereqs would be level 5 of the base skill.
this is not dumbing down in the slightest. TRU BRO. Unofficial .BRO. raep team captain.
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Rhatar Khurin
Minmatar Dead poets society The Laughing Men
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Posted - 2009.11.10 10:36:00 -
[197]
Originally by: Zeba Edited by: Zeba on 19/10/2009 10:49:17
Originally by: Krxon Blade Dumbification or how to make player invested time next to worthless.
Yes because the 20 days of effortless afk training it takes to run both types of sites is anywhere near comparable to the time and grindtastic effort it took to become a jedi before the nge. You guys need to try harder.
You could grind the exp needed to become a jedi easily if you got a load of easy holocrons. If you got Squad leader, marksman, pistoleer, Creature handler, image designer you could gain jedi in a week or less.
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Kyusoath Orillian
Broski Enterprises No Fun Allowed
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Posted - 2009.11.10 10:44:00 -
[198]
Originally by: Tres Farmer
>pride >pride >pride
you take pride in your playing of a video game? well done, but think of the pride you'll have when you finally move out of your mothers basement? or when you finally meet the boy of your dreams! TRU BRO. Unofficial .BRO. raep team captain.
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Kora Zilesti
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Posted - 2009.11.10 11:41:00 -
[199]
I was just mentioning the other day that skilling up for things in EVE takes far too much time, and I'd love a general reduction.
Terrible irony then that every single thing on that list is something I've already put the time in to train. :)
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Doddy
The Executives IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.10 12:49:00 -
[200]
Edited by: Doddy on 10/11/2009 12:50:06 To be honest my view of these changes is rather mixed.
The archaeology/hacking ones are much needed, it was stupid having these proffessions so inaccessable to new players. I say this as someone who has now pointless survey 5 to go with previously pointless astro aqu 5. Mining upgrades and salvaging changes are so small its a case of who cares?. High speed maneuvering change is i think a good thing because mwd is so important esp to frigs and noobs should get to learn it asap. Thermodynamics i can understand as overloading has become pretty much universal and is a bit of a time sink. Trajectory analysis balances things up a bit for auto users but seems unecessary. TSM seems too easy. Cloaking and bomb deployment seem to be game breakingly stupid decisions as both are very powerful in different ways.
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Ai Mei
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Posted - 2009.11.11 01:54:00 -
[201]
I'm still ranting, in the past 2 weeks, I keep seeing, people 2 months old in ded complexes and radar sites, granted they cant clear them well but still the fact that they are in there means the some professions are easy to get into.
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CCP Eris Discordia
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Posted - 2009.11.12 13:30:00 -
[202]
Just because we made it faster to get into the mini professions and lowered the prerequisites doesn't mean we are on a slippery slope. We have no plans to lower the prerequisites for tech 2 modules or titans
Pink Dread has been hijacked
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Mendolorian Girl
Caldari Conflagration. Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.11.12 13:32:00 -
[203]
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia Just because we made it faster to get into the mini professions and lowered the prerequisites doesn't mean we are on a slippery slope. We have no plans to lower the prerequisites for tech 2 modules or titans
oh hey, look a dev.. go page the guy that nerfed the motherships and tell him we want a damn response
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CCP Eris Discordia
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Posted - 2009.11.12 14:04:00 -
[204]
Edited by: CCP Eris Discordia on 12/11/2009 14:05:34 Dev blogs should appear next week if all goes well, with pretty graphs
Pink Dread has been hijacked
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LeBelInconnu
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2009.11.12 14:15:00 -
[205]
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia Just because we made it faster to get into the mini professions and lowered the prerequisites doesn't mean we are on a slippery slope. We have no plans to lower the prerequisites for tech 2 modules or titans
but there are not tech 2 modules for this profession.
So you start an account, train a week, and you are par with 3 year old players.
you shouldn't nerf the current scanning modules, you should just introduce civilian probe launchers, or introduce new tech 2 probe launchers, or something. DB Preacher - "We command your game now. As long as you remain in GoonSwarm, we make you play our way..." wtf is wrong with you? |
something somethingdark
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Posted - 2009.11.12 14:21:00 -
[206]
Actualy they just introduced t2 salvagers n stuff.
The issue is more that there is realy no (mini) profession if everybody can do it....
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Barstander
Rook Takes Pawn Shop
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Posted - 2009.11.12 16:08:00 -
[207]
Well, seeing the CCP responses in this thread, I think a better way to look at it now is that they are eliminating exploration as a profession. Now its something everybody is expected to do rather than a dedicated minority.
A workable analogy: EvE doesn't have 'classes' but if it did, this would be the Dev's deleting the 'Explorer' class and just rolling its abilities into the other classes. To anybody who trained exploration skills rather than combat skills, learn your lesson well. I'm not happy about it, but there isn't much I can do either since this decision is already made and worse, they don't seem to understand why current explorers feel shortchanged.
Oh well, maybe if they make some sites harder, the deluge of noob explorers might get blown up and I can at least salvage their ships. (not likely, but a man can dream)
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Nye Jaran
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Posted - 2009.11.12 17:13:00 -
[208]
Originally by: Darriele Edited by: Darriele on 19/10/2009 11:36:11 Do you all think that by relaxing some skill requirements does change a thing? To be competitive and effective in a "particular" domain you will always need those "particular" skills trained to maximum. The changes in the prerequisites for some "skills" aren't such a big fuss, I see them as a new ISK sink, since more unprepared ppl will jump into the "hax/bomb/cloak/tackle/snipe/mine/exploration" bandwagon and get wasted faster than an "veteran max skilled pilot".
LE: corrections.
It does, actually. By easing the requirements as much as they have, there will be that many more people partaking in exploration. To be blunt, this has a negative impact on my ability to earn ISK from exploration. More people will be probing down sites and more sites will be cleared before I get home from work, meaning there's less for me to find, which translates directly into less ISK for me.
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nianra
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Posted - 2009.11.12 17:43:00 -
[209]
Originally by: CCP Lemur I fail to see how this is dumbing down EVE. It is at most less time spent waiting for skills. How is less waiting making it any easier or your words less undumb? You still have to have the same wits and insights to be successful. The skill injection part was true since the beginning because you need the prereqs trained for a skill to be injected.
This will increase the ammount of "WOW" players effectively dumbing the game :p
Also: instead of lowering the preqs for a skill could restore the basic SP we had at the creation of a character, effectively allowing for specialization even on a beginning account. I would personally not have played eve if i would ve started of as it is now.. When i create a new character i find eve boring, not able to fit anything in the first 2 weeks wich is the basic Trial time.
This change will also make Analyzing and hacking loot to become nice looking crap, the prices will drop as you can have the skills within 2-3days of training. I think this is one of the changes people will not want to see. Nav 4 and AB 4 was not a big deal neither, barely 100k SP and well could say about planets not going to look nice during fleet battles as it will melt most pc's (not talking 2000$ pc that you bought last month)
ah well alot of bad changes in dominion some good ones though :D I believe following peoples advice (certainly the ones that pay you) is quiet useful sometimes, i think i have said enough **** for now haven't i :p
i can't even remember what my first sentence was but well. CCP please keep up the GOOD work only not the BAD.
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Thenoran
Caldari Pelican.
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Posted - 2009.11.12 18:08:00 -
[210]
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia Just because we made it faster to get into the mini professions and lowered the prerequisites...
...again...Why? EVE was never the universe to cater to the people who can't show a little patience in their training. Something becomes a profession when it requires specific skills, time and training.
A friend of mine got into Exploration two days ago, never tried it before, only got Astrometrics I and a Core Probe Launcher I. On the same day he already managed to find a Wormhole, he didn't even use a scanner Frigate.
I'd say Exploration is easy enough to get into and use as it is.
Also, you keep referring to Exploration as a mini profession when it clearly is not. The current skills take no more time to get then skills of the same level with other professions. For level 4 mission running you'll need a Battleship and atleast some support skills to fly it properly and you'll still be struggling as a new player. For Mining you could get into a Retriever or a Battleship until you reach the point for a Hulk after a month or more.
As it is, a similar level of time and training exists in Exploration. You start with a T1 scanning frigate, standard gear and a basic level of skills. The current system already makes it enormously easy (especially in high-sec) to find sites with just such a ship and setup already. If pilots want to get better at scanning down sites and probing them down, they should invest time in it. This means getting a T2 scanner frigate (like a Hulk), fitting it with faction probes and launcher (like a CNR) and knowing how the system works (like any mission runner with missions).
Exploration is a fully fledged profession, there are loads of skills, gear, ships and equipment that go into it, as well as experience and whatnot needed to use the sites you find with it.
Why does this need to change? What reason is there to make Exploration even MORE easy to get into? There is no reason for this that I can see at all, people can already find sites with just Astrometrics I and a Probe Launcher. Do you really want to dumb it down even more by making it so incredibly easy to get into?
You can already find them on day one, you really can. This means you can find and run simple combat sites in high-sec with a T1 fitted Destroyer, or a Gravimetric site for an aspiring Retriever pilot.
If one week new chars could find and run almost all of the Radar/Unknown sites in high-sec, why would they bother training for anything else? They'd have to get into a Hulk or a Lvl 4 mission running Raven to be able to compete. By comparison, a T1 scanner frig and a probe launcher doesn't cost a thing.
The only prereqs I might agree with changing is those for Archeology (Mag sites, as those usually never used by older players due to their low value) and the Astrogeology V requirement for a Covetor (Covetor + 2d training = Hulk, which should change).
All in all, from my point of view, changing the Exploration skillset on such a global level is (for me) very similar to making it so a Hulk requires one-two weeks of training, and a fully T2 geared Raven running lvl 4s about a week.
If players do not have the patience for Exploration skills, I highly doubt they'll function well within EVE at any rate. Waiting for skills to train is one of the most basic support columns of EVE, it can't be power-leveled, it can't be rushed. A far better system than most of the leveling systems used by other MMOs.
If pilots won't do Exploration because they won't be able to find and run The Maze 10/10 and get all that nice Pith X-Type stuff within one week, too BAD for them. They'll just have to wait, just as they would have to wait while training for a Hulk or a L4 mission Raven.
Exploration is easy enough...this is EVE Online, not Hello Kitty Online Adventure. The new scanning system already made scanning 10x easier than the old one, I'd say that's change enough for the new players. ------------------------ Low-sec is like sailing along the coast of Somalia...
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