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Darkonza
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Posted - 2009.10.15 16:41:00 -
[1]
Hello,
I am new here, and I know that I this opens me up to worry. I have been an active small-time trader over the last few months, mainly trading between Jita and Amarr.
I have made enough ISK to keep up with my PVP losses, but I want to grow larger! I trade in mainly t2 equipment and moon minerals. I use a custom program (that I built) that goes through the eve-central prices every hour and helps me find the best trades. I also go through and track my trades for patterns.
I am looking to start small, only 1bn ISK. With this I believe I can do a return of 12% interest and make enough ISK to cover my time.
I will be breaking this bond into 100 10mn ISK shares. I am able to put up 200mn ISK as collateral to a trusted 3rd party such as amarr citizen or cheepnough. If I do this though, I will be forced to bring the interest rate down to 8% to compensate for not having that ISK to invest. Please let me know if this interests you in your reservation. If the majority of those who reserve asks for the collateral to be put up I will do so.
Thanks, Darkonza
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Wack Attack
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Posted - 2009.10.15 16:57:00 -
[2]
I think you have a flaw in your reasoning. Tell me if you agree or why not.
You claim to be able to pay 12% with a 1 billion isk loan along with your 200 mil giving you a total of 1.2 bil to invest. On the other hand, you claim if you post 200 mil as collateral then you would only have 1 bil to invest and only be able to pay back 8%.
If your projected earnings are based on percentages, then the smaller the invested amount, the easier to have a higher return on investment. The percentage amount of profit should not vary.
For example: 2 items purchased for 600 mil each and then sold returning a profit of 25%, or 2 items purchased for 500 mil each and then sold returning a profit of 25%, they both present the same percentage of return.
So, please explain your reasoning or is it just stated wrong and you are offering a higher percentage for a higher risk loan plain and simple.
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Kaya Divine
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2009.10.15 17:31:00 -
[3]
Darkonza was created on 2009.04.26 Character was member of No Limit Productions from 2009.05.02 21:04 to 2009.10.03 23:28. This corporation was on and off member of Mostly Harmless.
But nothing isn't concerning as the fact that Darkonza is currently in the C4C-Z4 system, VNX-P0 constellation of the Fade region.
Btw, just for fun, could you link any kb on which yours PvP experience could be seen? Because I could find only this
And personally I`m not likely to trust someone who isn't sincere about some common stuff.
Shoot your shot... |
Roguehalo
Caldari RH Ship Brokers
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Posted - 2009.10.15 18:09:00 -
[4]
Oh dear........here we go again
The way you explain your 'business plan' makes it seem to me that you don't have a clue what is involved in trading.
I could be completely wrong of course
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Shinjy Maracudara
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Posted - 2009.10.15 18:33:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Wack Attack I think you have a flaw in your reasoning. Tell me if you agree or why not.
You claim to be able to pay 12% with a 1 billion isk loan along with your 200 mil giving you a total of 1.2 bil to invest. On the other hand, you claim if you post 200 mil as collateral then you would only have 1 bil to invest and only be able to pay back 8%.
If your projected earnings are based on percentages, then the smaller the invested amount, the easier to have a higher return on investment. The percentage amount of profit should not vary.
For example: 2 items purchased for 600 mil each and then sold returning a profit of 25%, or 2 items purchased for 500 mil each and then sold returning a profit of 25%, they both present the same percentage of return.
So, please explain your reasoning or is it just stated wrong and you are offering a higher percentage for a higher risk loan plain and simple.
The reason I am paying a higher interest rate w/o the collateral is because it is a higher risk loan. If I remove my 200 million ISK from the investment pot, the amount of items I buy and sell will be reduced. Decreasing my profits. Using your above example, 2 items at 600million = 1.2bn with a return of 25% ='s 300mn. 2 items at 500million = 1bn with a return of 25% ='s 250mn isk. Yes the percent return is the same at 25%, but the amount returned is different by 50mn isk.
Originally by: Kaya Divine Darkonza was created on 2009.04.26 Character was member of No Limit Productions from 2009.05.02 21:04 to 2009.10.03 23:28. This corporation was on and off member of Mostly Harmless.
But nothing isn't concerning as the fact that Darkonza is currently in the C4C-Z4 system, VNX-P0 constellation of the Fade region.
Btw, just for fun, could you link any kb on which yours PvP experience could be seen? Because I could find only this
And personally I`m not likely to trust someone who isn't sincere about some common stuff.
http://kb.eve-42.com/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=72301
My PVP alt. 96.73% efficiency.
The reason this toon is not in MH is because I have been doing trading. I am 0.0 is because I jump cloned down this morning to handle market transactions.
Originally by: Roguehalo Oh dear........here we go again
The way you explain your 'business plan' makes it seem to me that you don't have a clue what is involved in trading.
I could be completely wrong of course
If you have a specific concern please state it.
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Krathos Morpheus
Gallente Legion Infernal
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Posted - 2009.10.15 19:14:00 -
[6]
If you're going to provide 200M as collateral, the correct return would be 9.6% if you want to give 8% back, the correct collateral would be 333.33M to match your 12% on 1B.
Damn the 5 minutes.
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Shinjy Maracudara
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Posted - 2009.10.15 19:49:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Krathos Morpheus
If you're going to provide 200M as collateral, the correct return would be 9.6% if you want to give 8% back, the correct collateral would be 333.33M to match your 12% on 1B.
Damn the 5 minutes.
I'm not sure how you ran your calculations. I came up with the numbers arbitrarily, if there is a way of calculating what I should put up for collateral for a specific return please let me know what that calculation is.
For now though I am going to keep the returns previously mentioned.
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Krathos Morpheus
Gallente Legion Infernal
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Posted - 2009.10.15 20:20:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Shinjy Maracudara
Originally by: Krathos Morpheus
If you're going to provide 200M as collateral, the correct return would be 9.6% if you want to give 8% back, the correct collateral would be 333.33M to match your 12% on 1B.
Damn the 5 minutes.
I'm not sure how you ran your calculations. I came up with the numbers arbitrarily, if there is a way of calculating what I should put up for collateral for a specific return please let me know what that calculation is.
For now though I am going to keep the returns previously mentioned.
If you are putting 200M as collateral, it means that you have 800M to work with. the 12% of 800M is 96M, now redistribute that 96M into the 1000M and you have your rate. You can offer any secured amount the investors want and you'll always work for 12% on the amount you have. You can even let any investor to chose his rate and return individually. ie: an investor wants a security of 50% on 200M, he gives you 100M and 100M more to the third party, then you give him back the 12% on 100M which will be 6% on 200M. As you can see this is pretty absurd and that's why collateral is never done with liquid isks. There is no reason to decrease profits for no gain at all.
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Darkonza
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Posted - 2009.10.15 21:04:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Krathos Morpheus
Originally by: Shinjy Maracudara
Originally by: Krathos Morpheus
If you're going to provide 200M as collateral, the correct return would be 9.6% if you want to give 8% back, the correct collateral would be 333.33M to match your 12% on 1B.
Damn the 5 minutes.
I'm not sure how you ran your calculations. I came up with the numbers arbitrarily, if there is a way of calculating what I should put up for collateral for a specific return please let me know what that calculation is.
For now though I am going to keep the returns previously mentioned.
If you are putting 200M as collateral, it means that you have 800M to work with. the 12% of 800M is 96M, now redistribute that 96M into the 1000M and you have your rate. You can offer any secured amount the investors want and you'll always work for 12% on the amount you have. You can even let any investor to chose his rate and return individually. ie: an investor wants a security of 50% on 200M, he gives you 100M and 100M more to the third party, then you give him back the 12% on 100M which will be 6% on 200M. As you can see this is pretty absurd and that's why collateral is never done with liquid isks. There is no reason to decrease profits for no gain at all.
I see what your saying. I was going to put away 200mn of my ISK currently at hand. Not investor ISK. I was going to do this to guarantee the minimum payout to the investors. I was then going to invest the total 1bn ISK into the market.
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Krathos Morpheus
Gallente Legion Infernal
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Posted - 2009.10.15 21:53:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Krathos Morpheus on 15/10/2009 21:53:43
Originally by: Darkonza I see what your saying. I was going to put away 200mn of my ISK currently at hand. Not investor ISK. I was going to do this to guarantee the minimum payout to the investors. I was then going to invest the total 1bn ISK into the market.
It is easy to miss it, but it is really the same, specially when you are going to decrease the profits and the returns.
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Shinjy Maracudara
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Posted - 2009.10.15 22:58:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Krathos Morpheus Edited by: Krathos Morpheus on 15/10/2009 21:53:43
Originally by: Darkonza I see what your saying. I was going to put away 200mn of my ISK currently at hand. Not investor ISK. I was going to do this to guarantee the minimum payout to the investors. I was then going to invest the total 1bn ISK into the market.
It is easy to miss it, but it is really the same, specially when you are going to decrease the profits and the returns.
I have made the needed changes. Thanks for the heads up.
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Darkonza
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Posted - 2009.10.16 02:42:00 -
[12]
This bond is now open to investment. Any more comments/concerns please let me know.
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Signore Kaeota
Caldari Caelum Incognitum
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Posted - 2009.10.16 04:22:00 -
[13]
I find it odd you haven't been told this yet: Get an audit. I honestly shouldn't need to explain why. -_-_-_-
I, Signore Kaeota, hereby apologise for any and all offence caused by the contents of this above post, and all others that I have written, or otherwise been responsible for.
-_-_-_ |
Darkonza
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Posted - 2009.10.16 04:31:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Signore Kaeota I find it odd you haven't been told this yet: Get an audit. I honestly shouldn't need to explain why.
I didn't feel this bond needs an audit. Unless you want me to prove that I have been trading :P
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Signore Kaeota
Caldari Caelum Incognitum
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Posted - 2009.10.16 04:37:00 -
[15]
yup, that's basically it. -_-_-_-
I, Signore Kaeota, hereby apologise for any and all offence caused by the contents of this above post, and all others that I have written, or otherwise been responsible for.
-_-_-_ |
Brock Nelson
Caldari Flux Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2009.10.16 04:39:00 -
[16]
And why don't you feel that this doesn't need an audit?
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Ambo
I've Got Nothing
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Posted - 2009.10.16 08:27:00 -
[17]
I think an audit is pointless. 1 bil is peanuts it's just a shot in the dark and the interest rate reflects that.
Dark, I tried to contact you yesterday evening but you weren't online. If I can get hold of you at some point, we can have a chat and I might cover the whole lot. --------------------------------------
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Signore Kaeota
Caldari Caelum Incognitum
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Posted - 2009.10.16 08:43:00 -
[18]
your missing the point. If we start handing out 1 bil to everyone who comes in here - no strings attached - then we're only encouraging scammers. I fully understand that a bil is nothing to a lot of people, but the fact is, the more scammers come here, the less actual people come here.
An audit can't prove 100% he's not a scammer - but it does mean that he has to put a bit more effort into it, which raises the bar as to how much should be scammed, and with larger amounts, people are more critical of investments.
TL;DR: if you care that little about your isk, give it to me. 1 bil isn't peanuts to me, and in giving it to me you wont be encouraging scammers. -_-_-_-
I, Signore Kaeota, hereby apologise for any and all offence caused by the contents of this above post, and all others that I have written, or otherwise been responsible for.
-_-_-_ |
flakeys
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.10.16 11:11:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Signore Kaeota your missing the point. If we start handing out 1 bil to everyone who comes in here - no strings attached - then we're only encouraging scammers. I fully understand that a bil is nothing to a lot of people, but the fact is, the more scammers come here, the less actual people come here.
An audit can't prove 100% he's not a scammer - but it does mean that he has to put a bit more effort into it, which raises the bar as to how much should be scammed, and with larger amounts, people are more critical of investments.
TL;DR: if you care that little about your isk, give it to me. 1 bil isn't peanuts to me, and in giving it to me you wont be encouraging scammers.
The problem in here lies within perspective.Sometimes you just want to give someone a chance.
Wich does not mean to invest in anything , i have not invested in general newbold for example allthough i could but i also have not invested in akita T allthough i could.Both for my own reasons but to show that my reasons do not have to do with the fact someone has or has not made a reputation within the MD.I invest based on the hart not the mind , wich as in reall life can cause some pains now and then.
My guess is i can not 'show' you and others why this reasoning as it is not in the nature of most MD people to do this.
Look at it this way:People here talk about market pvp all the time.Well if this was pvp then i would jump into a low-sec system in my raven with only a slight knowledge of what is on the other side.If i then compare that to how most invest i would say they will only jump through if they know the system is completely empty and has all gates covered with a blob just in case.Sure i will loose my ship more often but that is what pvp is about to me , and i play the markets the same way.Most of my trading profit comes from verry risky ventures wich has caused me some headaches but also the most fun and i treat investing in the same way.
Play it safe till a certain degree but don't overdo it.I would hate to see the day when CCP introduces a system wich will have a full guarantee that these MD investments can not end up as a scam.And yes feel free to quto this line as many times as you like when i get my next scam in te face.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.16 13:39:00 -
[20]
Quote:
Play it safe till a certain degree but don't overdo it.I would hate to see the day when CCP introduces a system wich will have a full guarantee that these MD investments can not end up as a scam
The day CCP introduces "guarantees" and "certain outcomes" and "safe investments" is the day when Blizzard will have bought CCP and turned EvE in Yawn-online: WoW reloaded.
From unregulated-far-west-sandbox to canned-sh!tbox. It won't happen. - Auditing and consulting
Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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SetrakDark
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Posted - 2009.10.16 15:41:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Signore Kaeota your missing the point. If we start handing out 1 bil to everyone who comes in here - no strings attached - then we're only encouraging scammers. I fully understand that a bil is nothing to a lot of people, but the fact is, the more scammers come here, the less actual people come here.
An audit can't prove 100% he's not a scammer - but it does mean that he has to put a bit more effort into it, which raises the bar as to how much should be scammed, and with larger amounts, people are more critical of investments.
TL;DR: if you care that little about your isk, give it to me. 1 bil isn't peanuts to me, and in giving it to me you wont be encouraging scammers.
I endorse this post. A 5 minute ltd API check increases the cost to set up a scam; a 10 minute full API check more so. There is absolutely no reason that someone shouldn't at least check for relevant trade skills and a pertinent trade history. It doesn't even have to be an auditor, just check it yourself before you wire 1b isk.
The lazier some investors are, the lazier potential borrowers and scammers alike will be. This laziness fosters the high degree of suspicion and ill will that kills lot of the potential that MD could be.
Do everyone a favor and go gamble in lotteries because lazy investing is making the game shi.tier for a lot of other people.
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Shinjy Maracudara
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Posted - 2009.10.16 18:21:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Ambo I think an audit is pointless. 1 bil is peanuts it's just a shot in the dark and the interest rate reflects that.
Dark, I tried to contact you yesterday evening but you weren't online. If I can get hold of you at some point, we can have a chat and I might cover the whole lot.
Ambo,
Sorry for taking so long to respond, we had some massive PVP over the last 24 hours against PL, kept me off my trading toon.
I would be happy to send you my API so you can confirm that I have been actively trading. You can also confirm that I have a freighter alt (with a freighter) and I have been moving items between Amarr, Jita and Torrinos (and even into 0.0).
I will be home tonight around 9pm eastern and will send you a message.
To all others, I have never said I was not interested in getting my API checked, but I see no use in getting a full audit on whether or not I have been moving items around. My decision if this, if the investors want it before they invest I shall do it. My goal is to make this work :)
Thanks, Dark
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SetrakDark
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Posted - 2009.10.16 18:46:00 -
[23]
I wouldn't take any of the comments personally. It's just an ongoing debate that crystallizes around someone when they make an offer, and involves far more issues than those strictly relevant to you.
You haven't done anything "wrong", and most comments, unfortunately, really have little to do with your specific offer.
Sounds like you're getting some cash so good luck with the trading.
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flakeys
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.10.16 19:44:00 -
[24]
Originally by: SetrakDark I wouldn't take any of the comments personally. It's just an ongoing debate that crystallizes around someone when they make an offer, and involves far more issues than those strictly relevant to you.
You haven't done anything "wrong", and most comments, unfortunately, really have little to do with your specific offer.
Sounds like you're getting some cash so good luck with the trading.
Allthough our opinions differ a lot on this matter of investing i might add that i find it noteworthy that you have reset the tone.Shows good personality.
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SetrakDark
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Posted - 2009.10.16 20:30:00 -
[25]
Thanks. Discussion here should be fun and productive, and I try not to comment at all if it's not going to be generally contributory. If I want to get into a pointless heated debate I'll call my ex-gf.
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Ambo
I've Got Nothing
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Posted - 2009.10.16 21:40:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Shinjy Maracudara 9pm eastern
Ah, that explains it. Would be about 1am for me. --------------------------------------
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Signore Kaeota
Caldari Caelum Incognitum
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Posted - 2009.10.17 02:22:00 -
[27]
Originally by: SetrakDark Thanks. Discussion here should be fun and productive, and I try not to comment at all if it's not going to be generally contributory. If I want to get into a pointless heated debate I'll call my ex-gf.
Once upon a time, I help this stance too... I think I need to see a councillor =\ heh
But yea, Flakey, I see your point - I just think an audit should be 'one of those things'.
Good to see the OP being open to an audit if needed. And yes, as mentioned the majority of this discussion actually stretches over multiple threads, and wasn't helped by the whole general newbold thing. Best of luck to you!
P.S. I lol'd at my post getting endorsed XD thanks! -_-_-_-
I, Signore Kaeota, hereby apologise for any and all offence caused by the contents of this above post, and all others that I have written, or otherwise been responsible for.
-_-_-_ |
Darkonza
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Posted - 2009.10.17 04:46:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Ambo
Originally by: Shinjy Maracudara 9pm eastern
Ah, that explains it. Would be about 1am for me.
What time in game is good for you on saturday? I got in a car accident on my home today, probably going to have to go in for x-ray's tomorrow and my car's rear end needs to be fixed.
Just let me know and I'll do my best. If not saturday then sunday.
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Ambo
I've Got Nothing
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Posted - 2009.10.17 08:08:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Darkonza
Originally by: Ambo
Originally by: Shinjy Maracudara 9pm eastern
Ah, that explains it. Would be about 1am for me.
What time in game is good for you on saturday? I got in a car accident on my home today, probably going to have to go in for x-ray's tomorrow and my car's rear end needs to be fixed.
Just let me know and I'll do my best. If not saturday then sunday.
Well that's pretty poor timing. Hope you're ok.
I think I'm going to have to let this one go though, I've sunk a large amount of money into long-term dominion speculation and had a couple of other big purchases that have left my liquid capital rather smaller than I'm comfortable with..
I'm sure someone else will step in though, there are several people out there who love this type of investment. Good luck. --------------------------------------
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Darkonza
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Posted - 2009.10.17 19:50:00 -
[30]
Still looking for an investor or some investors.
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