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Valoric Liao
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Posted - 2009.10.13 10:41:00 -
[1]
Let me start by saying I love the way local works in WHs. I'd love to see the same mechanic applied to 0.0, but the idea has been shot down enough times that I won't waste time suggesting it again.
Instead, how about something of a compromise? I suggest removing cov-ops cloaked ships from local. Keep the local count up-to-date, but remove cloaking individuals from the list.
Doing this, players will still be able to tell that there are cloaked ships in system, but they wont be getting free intel on pilots who really should be invisible. I'm also hoping that this might give black-ops ships some love (as a fuel bay just doesn't seem to do it).
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Rico Minali
Sons Of 0din Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2009.10.13 11:58:00 -
[2]
I agree with this and have suggested similar before.
Cov ops cloaks being removed from local makes total sense, they are supposed to be cov ops after all... No point to Black ops if everyone can just look in local...
It would allow people to truly do sneak attacks and stealth missions.
Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing. |
Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.10.13 12:26:00 -
[3]
Watered-down solution. Full Recent Speakers Mode Local in 0.0 is the best option by far. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic |
Valoric Shadows
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Posted - 2009.10.13 20:34:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Valoric Shadows on 13/10/2009 20:35:04 Watered down? Sure. After seeing the flame fests that anyone suggesting applying WH local to null-sec, I'm not eager to go down that path. I also think cov-ops ships should have a bit more going for them other than being able to warp while cloaked, and some sort absence from local might do the trick. I really want to see black-ops used on an alliance scale, and a change like this may encourage that.
I'll have a look, though, to find the idea you mentioned.
Edit: Forgot the switch to Liao. x.X
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Seth Ruin
Ominous Corp Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.10.13 22:44:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Valoric Liao Let me start by saying I love the way local works in WHs. I'd love to see the same mechanic applied to 0.0, but the idea has been shot down enough times that I won't waste time suggesting it again.
FWIW, so were "Warp to 0" and the skill queue.
I'll support this idea, though. Anything that takes away from the reliability of Local as an intelligence tool is a step in the right direction as far as I'm concerned.
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Scerolikk Teromni
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Posted - 2009.10.14 16:54:00 -
[6]
That would be very stupid, from a game mechanics AND RP point of view. Cloaking hides you from scanners, not from local. If you want it to hide you from local, I say you're gonna need to show up on scan. You can't be hidden from both. And hell, say the cloaking produces a large amount of interference thereby greatly increasing your signature radius and making it easy to probe you out.
Covert Ops ships are hidden enough... people need to stop complaining about how null-sec is the same as high-sec, because there's no reason for it not to be.
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.10.14 17:36:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Scerolikk Teromni That would be very stupid, from a game mechanics AND RP point of view.
The current implimentation of Local as the omniscient intelligence tool is what is stupid - from a game mechanics AND RP point of view. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic |
darius mclever
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Posted - 2009.10.14 17:39:00 -
[8]
well. not really. it follows basically the principles you got atm in air traffic. if you enter a certain controlled space your plane sends an identification number and some more details about your flight. similar in eve. if you enter a system your ship broadcasts to a system beacon that relays to the other ships.
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Valoric Liao
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Posted - 2009.10.14 21:27:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Valoric Liao on 14/10/2009 21:28:45 Thanks for the support ;)
More importantly, thanks for civil discussion.
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OwlManAtt
Gallente Yasashii Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2009.10.15 00:07:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri The current implimentation of Local as the omniscient intelligence tool is what is stupid - from a game mechanics AND RP point of view.
I concur. However, with the proposed, any covert operatives would ``blip'' on local when they showed up - you wouldn't instantly go from session changing in to cloaked. Still not ideal.
I'd prefer a comprehensive solution to ``the local-as-an-intel-source problem'', but if we can't get a commitment to do that, than a half-assed bandaid like this would help. --- Owl |
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Seth Ruin
Minmatar Ominous Corp Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.10.15 02:30:00 -
[11]
Originally by: darius mclever well. not really. it follows basically the principles you got atm in air traffic. if you enter a certain controlled space your plane sends an identification number and some more details about your flight. similar in eve. if you enter a system your ship broadcasts to a system beacon that relays to the other ships.
As a rule, stealth aircraft turn off their transponders when they need to be, y'know, covert.
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.10.15 03:57:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Seth Ruin
Originally by: darius mclever well. not really. it follows basically the principles you got atm in air traffic. if you enter a certain controlled space your plane sends an identification number and some more details about your flight. similar in eve. if you enter a system your ship broadcasts to a system beacon that relays to the other ships.
As a rule, stealth aircraft turn off their transponders when they need to be, y'know, covert.
If I want to, I can build my ship from the "ground up" - raw materials to completion. I can mine the ore, refine the minerals, assemble the parts and complete the build... but somehow turning off or removing that damn transponder is completely beyond me.... ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic |
Kaydin Versailles
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Posted - 2009.10.15 05:13:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
Originally by: Seth Ruin
Originally by: darius mclever well. not really. it follows basically the principles you got atm in air traffic. if you enter a certain controlled space your plane sends an identification number and some more details about your flight. similar in eve. if you enter a system your ship broadcasts to a system beacon that relays to the other ships.
As a rule, stealth aircraft turn off their transponders when they need to be, y'know, covert.
If I want to, I can build my ship from the "ground up" - raw materials to completion. I can mine the ore, refine the minerals, assemble the parts and complete the build... but somehow turning off or removing that damn transponder is completely beyond me....
Sarcasm aside, maybe there should be an option to turn it off from any place you could normally do ship fittings (stations) but...then you wouldn't be able to see who else is in Local either =P
It only seems to make sense to me that if you're not communicating with the network, the network is not communicating with you.
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Psycho symbiosis
Blue Sphere Foundation
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Posted - 2009.10.15 09:15:00 -
[14]
/signed
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Lili Lu
Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships
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Posted - 2009.10.15 16:03:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Lili Lu on 15/10/2009 16:07:29
Originally by: Kaydin Versailles
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
Originally by: Seth Ruin
Originally by: darius mclever well. not really. it follows basically the principles you got atm in air traffic. if you enter a certain controlled space your plane sends an identification number and some more details about your flight. similar in eve. if you enter a system your ship broadcasts to a system beacon that relays to the other ships.
As a rule, stealth aircraft turn off their transponders when they need to be, y'know, covert.
If I want to, I can build my ship from the "ground up" - raw materials to completion. I can mine the ore, refine the minerals, assemble the parts and complete the build... but somehow turning off or removing that damn transponder is completely beyond me....
Sarcasm aside, maybe there should be an option to turn it off from any place you could normally do ship fittings (stations) but...then you wouldn't be able to see who else is in Local either =P
It only seems to make sense to me that if you're not communicating with the network, the network is not communicating with you.
Sure, you could turn off your transponder . . and then the gate won't let you access it. So you don't get to jump. The original point makes sense. Local is a record everyone gets to access, in return for being able to jump through the gates.
The real problem is not local, it is logoffsky and cloaking. Many hunters say they want local removed. However, what they really want is prey not to logoff or ss&cloak once they show up on local. If logging off left your ship scannable for a longer period of time it might even the odds for the hunter.
If a cloak on a non-dedicated cloaking ship (cov ops, bombers, recons) had some fuel use or timer then cloaking would not be as much a problem and again the hunter could choose to wait out his ratting raven prey, or look for easier less observant prey elsewhere. Or alternately, new scanning skills could be introduced to give a small chance of scanning down cloaked ships. Cloaking would still be a viable option, however, you couldn't afk it. The Raven would still have to uncloak, rotate safespots, and recloak. Giving the hunter a chance to scan it down, or kill if he warps back to a previous safespot that the hunter decided to camp. And ships that can warp cloaked would still have to move, or risk the possibility of being scanned down eventually.
The same mechanics would ameliorate the afk harrassment cloaking that occurs. Sure you could pop into your enemy's system in your bomber. Because you can warp cloaked you have the advantage as a hunter. But you sure couldn't afk for the day and go to work.
So, you see local is not really the problem, and it makes sense in the game. Unless we are to remove gates and make players constructed gates, use of those gates requires a sacrifice on the player's part. If you use it you leave a kind of record of your entry for all to see, and you get to see a record of who has entered your current system and not left. It's really pretty fair. It is the other game mechanics that need tweaking.
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.10.15 17:40:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Lili Lu [Sure, you could turn off your transponder . . and then the gate won't let you access it. So you don't get to jump. The original point makes sense. Local is a record everyone gets to access, in return for being able to jump through the gates.
No, that doesn't make sense. If that's the way it worked people who enter a system via a wormhole wouldn't show up in Local, would they? Or via a cyno field? ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic |
Lili Lu
Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships
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Posted - 2009.10.15 19:02:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Lili Lu on 15/10/2009 19:04:58
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
Originally by: Lili Lu [Sure, you could turn off your transponder . . and then the gate won't let you access it. So you don't get to jump. The original point makes sense. Local is a record everyone gets to access, in return for being able to jump through the gates.
No, that doesn't make sense. If that's the way it worked people who enter a system via a wormhole wouldn't show up in Local, would they? Or via a cyno field?
Well you got me there. Your argument is valid as far as people entering from those means.
But for people entering from gates it makes sense to know they are there. Also, there are still the problems that it's too easy to logoff or cloak. This is all a theoretical exercise anyway.
If local were to be removed there would have to be radical redesigns to how players scan and get intel. Why would anyone invest any serious infrastructure in 0.0 if you have no way to know of a threat before your expensive infrastructure is getting hammered, and by the time you pull together a response, destroyed? Removing local without replacing it with something useful would kill 0.0 population just as dominion is trying to increase it.
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George Mccloud
Gallente Domination. THE KLINGONS
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Posted - 2009.10.15 19:08:00 -
[18]
So when you're at a big alliance's home with 20+ members in the system you want to continuously count the number of people in system to see if there's one person cloaked?
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RRNL
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Posted - 2009.10.16 11:08:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Lili Lu
The real problem is not local, it is logoffsky and cloaking. Many hunters say they want local removed. However, what they really want is prey not to logoff or ss&cloak once they show up on local. If logging off left your ship scannable for a longer period of time it might even the odds for the hunter.
Or alternately, new scanning skills could be introduced to give a small chance of scanning down cloaked ships. Cloaking would still be a viable option, however, you couldn't afk it. The Raven would still have to uncloak, rotate safespots, and recloak. Giving the hunter a chance to scan it down, or kill if he warps back to a previous safespot that the hunter decided to camp. And ships that can warp cloaked would still have to move, or risk the possibility of being scanned down eventually.
The same mechanics would ameliorate the afk harrassment cloaking that occurs. Sure you could pop into your enemy's system in your bomber. Because you can warp cloaked you have the advantage as a hunter. But you sure couldn't afk for the day and go to work.
So, you see local is not really the problem, and it makes sense in the game. It is the other game mechanics that need tweaking.
I support this quoted idea and want too add that its maybe a good idea to remove Black Ops from the directional scanner.
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Foolish Bob
Caldari FireTech In Tea We Trust
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Posted - 2009.10.16 13:54:00 -
[20]
I'll start with a declaration of interest and say that, despite the offensive / defensive benefits of a persistent local, like the OP I'm an ardent supporter of making nullsec local behave in precisely the same way as WH local. That being said, I don't support this. It doesn't address the concerns of the carebear (ie OMG you can't make us watch the scanner whilst we afk rat / mine! It's unreasonable!) and it doesn't really help the roaming gang to pick up targets. It ends up as the worst of all options. The point about assets being attacked without you knowing that there's a fleet present seems on the surface to be valid, but is in fact not. Intel on fleets moving through a system comes from the people that live in those systems. If they're seeing fleets moving through alliance space and NOT lighting up the intel channels then CEO's need to remind themselves of where the kick button is. That'll stop that kind of behaviour. Forcing ratters to have scouts would not only protect them, but it'd mean that not even a cloaked fleet could get into your space without detection. A conventional fleet shouldn't even need scouts. Where I do see an issue is with local reporting - states and suchlike are very poorly updated in the local window - usually it requires the window to be repainted by minimising or moving to a different tab - which means that local would have to poll the server at a fixed (fast) interval in order to allow for decloak - recloak effects to be detected. I'm sure messaging would get around it but my concern is that it opens a door for unnecessary lag.
To jump on the new meme, CCP need to HTFU and remind all the complaining carebears that nullsec is SUPPOSED to be a dangerous and scary place where monsters could be lurking. ----------- I am me. I am not the corp I've joined nor the alliance I fly in.
I'm also not a unique and special snowflake.
Everything I say should be taken in that context. |
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Aren Valle
Caldari Lonetrek Mineral Corporation
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Posted - 2009.10.16 17:52:00 -
[21]
Honestly, I think the easiest solution for those that don't want to be listed in Local would be the introduction of a secure comms module. It could be a mid slot or even a rig, but there has to be a cost/value balance to it.
As far as the argument over no one showing in local in W-space, it's fairly obvious if you're familiar with the EVE backstory. All fluid router communication in known space is monitored and regulated by CONCORD. Wormholes being outside this range of influence and not included in the CONCORD reporting protocols.
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Maxsim Goratiev
Gallente Imperial Tau Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.10.16 20:32:00 -
[22]
Originally by: darius mclever well. not really. it follows basically the principles you got atm in air traffic. if you enter a certain controlled space your plane sends an identification number and some more details about your flight. similar in eve. if you enter a system your ship broadcasts to a system beacon that relays to the other ships.
And if i am on a cov ops mission, and i know the space is controlled my enemy that will blow me to shreds at the first opportunity, and i am cloaked and hiding, why the hell would i broadcast my It, and especially my flight information to anyone? Fix Destroyers |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.10.17 09:02:00 -
[23]
Just put local into delayed mode. Problem solved. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Tier 5 Battleships
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