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Zarch AlDain
Hematite Rose
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Posted - 2009.09.29 14:19:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Zarch AlDain on 29/09/2009 14:20:59
I originally wrote this when I saw the dev blog but my accounts have been inactive for a while so I haven't been able to post it.
It applies to both Motherships and Titans so I didn't want to post it in either of those threads.
Before I start I'll just say that I know a little of what I'm talking about. I've helped run a 0.0 alliance, I've played cap and small and large gang warfare. I own my own Mothership (and I'm not keen on the name Supercarrier either!) and I was with The Establishment when we lost the first Hera and built the four Motherships that replaced her. In fairness though I should also admit that I've been inactive most of this year - but I have kept in touch with what is happening in Eve and the coming expansion is the first one that has interested me enough to reactivate a couple of accounts.
As I see it the capital ship changes are supposed to achieve two things - the first is to reign in the ability of a Titan to just obliterate everything in sight and hence ruin the fun of many pilots of sub-capital ships. The second is to give people a reason to actually field Titans and Motherships in a battle rather than just deplying fighters while hugging a POS shield or dropping a Doomsday then running away.
The first objective is achieved by the removal of the Doomsday. Reluctantly, I have to agree that's the best course.
The second objective though will not be met by anything currently suggested. Titans will be mobile jump bridges hiding in POS, Motherships will deploy fighters from the POS as currently any engagement significent enough to be worth deploying them is too dangerous to deploy them in.
In order to avoid this situation two seperate changes need to be made - the carrot needs to be bigger and the stick needs to be softer.
First the stick - essentially if you deploy a capital ship into a fight then unless you win the fight the odds are pretty good you will lose the ship. Supercap's immunity to scrambling used to mean they could withdraw if in trouble but with bubbles and interdictors that is no longer the case. Heavy interdictors being able to tackle them was an excellent addition and was needed for balance - however that change combined with the ability of bubbles to stop them warping means that any supercapital once deployed onto a battlefield is essentially as vulnerable as every other ship there - just with a much bigger bullseye.
In order to correct this I suggest making supercapitals immune to capacitor warfare - as otherwise nos and neut will quickly leave them powerless to do anything. In addition I suggest that they should be immune to bubbles - or possibly as a weaker compromise they should be able to jump when inside a bubble even if they are unable to warp. This means that active tackling in the form of heavy interdictors is needed to keep the super-capitals in place in order to kill them - and that also gives them a chance to fight themselves clear. I can see situations where even if you have lost the field you could do flyby attacks to try and take out the heavy interdictors holding your supercaps in place to allow them to escape. If the compromise option was used then in fact you would also have the supercaps juggling running their reps, weapons and hardeners against the need to get their cap recharged so they can get the hell out of there!
The new titan superweapon would be an electronic warfare weapon - it causes the ship's systems to turn on itself. This would explain why it doesn't work on enemy supercaps or POS. There would need to be some thought as to whether that should extend to seiged dreads but I can see that adding an interesting tactical element itself - especially if bombers are especially effective against seiged dreads - as it gives you an incentive to bring the titan vs unseiged dreads and carriers, the mothership vs seiged dreads.
...Continued in next post...
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Zarch AlDain
Hematite Rose
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Posted - 2009.09.29 14:27:00 -
[2]
With the softer stick it is still risky to deploy supercaps - but it isn't an all-or-nothing thing. However you need a carrot too, a reason to put the ship on the field. Ideally you want a reason that scales with the number of ships on the field as well so that no matter how many battleships or dreadnaughts you are fielding you still want a few Titans and Motherships in the pack. The solution I suggest for this is something that has been mentioned for many years and has sort of started to happen in Wormhole space - Tactical Environments!
The idea is that there would be "tactical environment generator" modules - at least one per race, ideally 2 or 3 to add variety and a reason to field a range of supercaps. Titans would get a 100% bonus to the effectiveness of the modules, Motherships would get no bonus but be able to run them. In addition Motherships and Titans would both get a 50% bonus to their own race's generator. If two identical generators are running on the same grid only the strongest takes effect. Combinations of generators can and will run together and interact though.
The generator would effect every single ship on grid with the ship running it. It would render the ship running it unable to warp or jump but with only a 1 or 2 minute cycle time so it is a bit of a decision to activate it but it is possible to change your mind if you are losing!
Each generator would have different effects designed to change the effectiveness of various fits in the area. The idea being that you could use it to weaken the enemy fleet or strengthen your own by generating an environment beneficial to what you are doing. For example a Caldari missile fleet (yes, I know, I know - bear with me) when combined with a Ballistic Acceleration Generator and a Plating Disruption Generator would give a standard gunnery fit sniper fleet a very hard time.
For example here are a number of possible effects that could be added (subject to a lot of playtesting and fiddling of course, and no doubt coming up with other better ideas):
Amarr:
Deadspace Generator: Microwarp drives do not function. Potentially could also add the effect that anyone warping into the grid always arrives at a point selected at random (either everyone at the same point or a different point for each person - playtesting needed to see which works best!).
Targetting Alignment Generator: All ships gain 50% targetting range and scan resolution.
Drive Disruption Generator: All ships lose 20% top speed and have half usual agility.
Caldari:
Spacial Disruption Generator: All ships lose 20% top speed and have half usual agility.
Ballistic Acceleration Generator: All missiles gain 100% velocity and explosion velocity bonus.
Plating Disruption Generator: All ships lose 30% armour HP.
Gallente:
Drone Enhancement Generator: Drone speed, range, control range and armour hit points are doubled.
Ballistic Distortion Generator: All missiles lose 30% velocity and explosion velocity.
Shielding Disruption Generator: All ships lose 30% shield HP.
Minmatar:
Targetting Disruption Generator: All ships lose 50% scan resolution and targetting range.
Greasy Graviton Generator: All ships gain 50% top speed.
Webbing Nullification Generator: All web effects reduced by 50%.
That is just a few ideas - but I can think of others too. For example enhancing certain damage types, or reducing tracking and increasing range of all guns. The idea is that you can change the battlefield and fit your fleet up ready to fight on the changed battlefield.
For example "fit up the fleet for mid range sniping" - sets everyone up with 100km optimal. Then you warp in at 50km with a tactical environment to halve everyone's optimal and double their tracking....or you warp in at 200 with a tactical environment to double the optimals and halve the tracking.
...the possibilities are endless...
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Maisonian
Amarr
The Green Machine
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Posted - 2009.09.29 16:17:00 -
[3]
Good ideas, I've always liked the idea that the Titan isn't quite the 'endgame' for everyone. Motherships as they are now will undoubtedly benefit from the changes being applied to them on the test server (higher base HP, fighter-bombers etc) but with the degredation of the ship's triage module its physical application is somewhat lessened. It'd be nice to see the crown of 'Mothership' to pass to a vessel of the same proportions as a Titan but with a similarly unique role (i.e. the OP's Tactical Environment Generation) whilst retaining clone vats/logistics support for truely active on-grid fleet dispersal. Allowing pilots to dock/undock within the Behemoth as well as actively clone jump to the ship itself would present some exclent and interesting tactical deployment options. Downgrading the 'supercarrier' to a dockable, upgraded version of the standard carrier would see a great deal more use of this ship as its current 'Pros' outweigh its 'cons' for a ship that will essentially become your very expensive coffin.
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Wonko
Aperture Harmonics
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Posted - 2009.09.29 18:46:00 -
[4]
first off, this belongs in features and ideas =]
second off, great post, some horrible ideas are in ther emind you, but they are far outweighed by the incredible idea you posted about the generators...
I think that would be an awesome feat to throw in and really screw up a fight... I dont personally think they should be strapped on a titan or on a supercarrier though... but instead on a new class of ship thats not quite so... big.
Because while it would be nice to have it in the battle, it should also have the ability to die fairly easily in order for a small alliance or gang to be able to have any sort of remote chance against it. Instead, maybe make it into the t2 tier 3 battleships? gogo t2 rokh "tactical warfare ship" to sway the battle? not a bad idea...
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Zarch AlDain
Hematite Rose
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Posted - 2009.09.29 20:40:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Wonko
first off, this belongs in features and ideas =]
It's feedback on Titans and Motherships :p
Originally by: Wonko
first off, this belongs in features and ideas =]
second off, great post, some horrible ideas are in ther emind you, but they are far outweighed by the incredible idea you posted about the generators...
I think that would be an awesome feat to throw in and really screw up a fight... I dont personally think they should be strapped on a titan or on a supercarrier though... but instead on a new class of ship thats not quite so... big.
Because while it would be nice to have it in the battle, it should also have the ability to die fairly easily in order for a small alliance or gang to be able to have any sort of remote chance against it. Instead, maybe make it into the t2 tier 3 battleships? gogo t2 rokh "tactical warfare ship" to sway the battle? not a bad idea...
I totally disagree - the effect is too powerful to allow any old battleship sized ship to generate it. In addition as mentioned in my post the point is to give people an incentive to field a titan/mothership.
You say that a small gang needs to have a chance - but: An effect like this would both be only limitted use against a small gang and a decent mothership will obliterate a small gang anyway.
You wouldn't field a titan against a random 5-man roaming gang in your system (or if you do then you deserve to lose it). But now if a big fight was looming you would have a real incentive to get that titan out and field it on the grid with your fleet.
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Zarch AlDain
Hematite Rose
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Posted - 2009.10.05 08:08:00 -
[6]
No-one else have any comments or feedback?
Or is it all too tl;dr? I do tend to ramble on a bit..
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Aylara
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Posted - 2009.10.05 09:21:00 -
[7]
This would some very be nice additions to supercapital ships arsenal. This also reminds me of the first Homeworld game (the gravity well generator).
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Misanth
Reaper Industries
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Posted - 2009.10.05 10:05:00 -
[8]
I like your generator suggestions. CCP's changes atm for the xMoms isn't really what I want tbh. More damage, especially something as vulnerable (even moreso in laggy environments, and/or vs smartbombs in cap vs cap) as the Fighter Bombers, isn't what would make me field my mom more. Especially not with the Titan changes, now it's even more risky to be on the field.
Would prefer if CCP dropped the "damage boat" idea for xMoms, put us back on the logistic field, gave us a generator or whatever and high survivability.
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I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen. |
Serge Bastana
Gallente
GWA Corp
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Posted - 2009.10.06 04:32:00 -
[9]
The generator idea would inject the possibility for more strategic battle planning, though it may be some time before you see a missile boat fleet, which will mean that any generator affecting missiles would not be considered as being useful. It may encourage some FC's to consider varying how their fleets are made up to try to prevent the opposition from affecting their whole fleet at once or have groups of ships that could take advantage of certain effects being generated by their own Titans.
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You either need a punch up the throat or a good shag.
Nobody round here is offering the second one therefore your choices are limited! |
Zarch AlDain
Hematite Rose
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Posted - 2009.10.06 19:26:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Serge Bastana
The generator idea would inject the possibility for more strategic battle planning, though it may be some time before you see a missile boat fleet, which will mean that any generator affecting missiles would not be considered as being useful. It may encourage some FC's to consider varying how their fleets are made up to try to prevent the opposition from affecting their whole fleet at once or have groups of ships that could take advantage of certain effects being generated by their own Titans.
That's exactly the sort of thing I'm aiming for here. You use supercaps to try and alter the battlefield to favour your fleet and weaken the oppositions. In a similar way to current fleets getting fitted to resist doomsdays you would fit to work with the tactical environment you are using and resist the enemies tactical environment...rather than the titan wiping out one fleet or another it makes one either less or more effective.
Missile fleets are not used at the moment for good reason, but equally that could make one teamed with a generator incredibly effective as the enemy are unlikely to have a missile fleet. You are right though that if the Caldari titan/mom could only boost missiles that would be seen as weak so it would need non-missile tactical environments as well.
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Zarch AlDain
Hematite Rose
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Posted - 2009.10.12 12:49:00 -
[11]
Still no other feedback on the idea?
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HeliosGal
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Posted - 2009.10.12 13:18:00 -
[12]
oh very much 80% of it is a good idea the rest might not work but ccp has their own mind made up the way they want it and now its just down to balance and testing
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Battle Tested
Shiva
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Posted - 2009.10.12 14:36:00 -
[13]
OP has a point as far as CCP is trying to put supercaps on the battlefield and the changes havent done that. They only increased the damage output vs caps. Cap pilots will just hop in BS's and you will see more BS gangs than you will capital warfare. There does need to be a more useful role for both classes in all sizes of fleet warfare. The battlefield (grid) bonus idea is something that sounds interesting and sounds like it could be an FC's best friend and also an FC's biggest enemy. I like the idea that it puts more tactics into fleet warfare rather than just a slugfest of ships. With the sov changes it reduces the needs of capitals that much more and hence capitals will only be used to take a POS or Conquerable Outpost/Station. And with the changes in the "high end" moons it reduces the amount of battles fought over moons and in turn reduces the use of capitals. Gang Links different from the ones fittable on command ships would be a nice addition to the supercarriers to bring them to a more effective role in fleet warfare other than spamming fighterbombers at other capitals. The Titan I think needs it's DD weapon to be a scripted weapon to where it can put all of its dmg on a single target or do an aoe damage effect on a targeted ship (basically a remote smartbomb) to where the titan would still have to lock a target and fire (costing twice as much isotopes) but damages all ships in a 20km radius and doing 1/10th the damage of a unscripted DD to each ship in the aoe...this could also have a 15 second delay upon activating if scripted for aoe effect. That would then make the Titan effective against subcap enemy fleets as well but without the "kill everything on grid" I win button. |
Zarch AlDain
Hematite Rose
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Posted - 2009.10.15 20:48:00 -
[14]
Hmm, the remote-aoe weapon idea definitely has potential as it would allow you to break up closely packed blobs of ships while not being as broken as the current titan blast.
I really think the idea of tactical uses for the supercaps to alter the environment for fleets is the way to go though - since now rather than replacing a fleet instead they compliment it.
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