Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 [8] 9 10 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Pearre Dash
|
Posted - 2009.10.20 23:14:00 -
[211]
Excuse me but did you put a Medium Shield Extender II on a Stabber as if that was an acceptable pro fit
|
Tagami Wasp
Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2009.10.20 23:17:00 -
[212]
Originally by: Pearre Dash Excuse me but did you put a Medium Shield Extender II on a Stabber as if that was an acceptable pro fit
Another failure at reading comprehension.
|
Pearre Dash
|
Posted - 2009.10.20 23:21:00 -
[213]
Yes I'm sorry that your "I tried to keep them as equal as possible" equally bad bad fit philosophy didn't jump out right at me but still nobody fits them like that, HAMs are not the primary weapons for Caracals, get over the Caracal~
|
Allen Ramses
Caldari Typo Corp
|
Posted - 2009.10.21 01:23:00 -
[214]
Thank you for reviving this topic (I didn't care enough to do it myself), but is everyone discussing the missile system being in such disrepair, or about overall PG issues with Caldari ships? ____________________ CCP: Catering to the cowards of a cold, harsh universe since November, 2006. |
Tagami Wasp
Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2009.10.21 03:56:00 -
[215]
They are correlated so both. CCP needs to either fix missiles so that they scale correctly (yes you were right on that issue) but keeping torpedoes as they are (you were wrong to propose nerfing them) Like this:
Originally by: Allen Ramses
Rocket - 4000m/s, 1.5 sec (6km). HAM - 4800m/s, 2.5 sec (12km). Torpedo - 6000m/s, 4 sec (24km).
Light - 4500m/s, 5 sec (22.5km). Heavy - 6000m/s, 7.5 sec (45km). Cruise - 8000m/s, 11.25 sec (90km).
Missile Bombardment - +5% Flight time per level Missile Projection - +7.5% velocity per level
Rocket - 235m/s @ 40m HAM - 140m/s @ 125m Torpedo - 85m/s @ 400m
Light - 188m/s @ 40m Heavy - 112m/s @ 125m Cruise - 69m/s @ 400m
Damage = Base_Damage * MIN(Ev/Er * sig/vel,1)
Originally by: Tagami Wasp
Rocket - 112 DMG @ 8 sec (14 DPS, +120%) HAM - 225 DMG @ 12 sec (18.75 DPS, +40%) Torps- 450 DMG @ 18 sec (25 dps, as is)
Light - 112 dmg @ 10 sec (11.2 DPS, +60%) Heavy - 225 dmg @ 15 sec (15 DPS, +50%) Cruise - 450 dmg @ 22.5 sec (20 dps, +40%) Torpedoes are just fine and cruise missiles must be adjusted to be in line with torpedoes, as should the rest of the missiles with appropriate scaling so that there is no imbalance between short and long range.
Since there is a static relationship between missile sizes, it's easier balance them out based on family. If you have feedback, please post constructively. You might think these changes make missiles too powerful overall but take into consideration that this has been calculated with the existent fitting requirements and the missile boats PG and CPU.
|
Liang Nuren
No Salvation War.Pigs.
|
Posted - 2009.10.21 04:08:00 -
[216]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 21/10/2009 04:15:15 Edited by: Liang Nuren on 21/10/2009 04:08:42
Originally by: Tagami Wasp
HAM - 225 DMG @ 12 sec (18.75 DPS, +40%) ...
You might think these changes make missiles too powerful overall but take into consideration that this has been calculated with the existent fitting requirements and the missile boats PG and CPU.
You do realize that you just suggested a 1000 DPS Drake right?
-Liang
Ed: It might be acceptable to have a 1000 DPS Drake if and only if it required BOTH a painter and web. Maybe two painters... because that's a really really really really really big boost to what's already the best small gang BC in the game. -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Davinel Lulinvega
|
Posted - 2009.10.21 04:22:00 -
[217]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 21/10/2009 04:15:15 Edited by: Liang Nuren on 21/10/2009 04:08:42
Originally by: Tagami Wasp
HAM - 225 DMG @ 12 sec (18.75 DPS, +40%) ...
You might think these changes make missiles too powerful overall but take into consideration that this has been calculated with the existent fitting requirements and the missile boats PG and CPU.
You do realize that you just suggested a 1000 DPS Drake right?
-Liang
Ed: It might be acceptable to have a 1000 DPS Drake if and only if it required BOTH a painter and web. Maybe two painters... because that's a really really really really really big boost to what's already the best small gang BC in the game.
There's no possible way that would be balanced. Just imagine what would happen when you shoot at a battleship.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke!
inb4 stealth edit |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation War.Pigs.
|
Posted - 2009.10.21 04:26:00 -
[218]
Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega There's no possible way that would be balanced. Just imagine what would happen when you shoot at a battleship.
Oh come on - what - the Drake would deal BS class damage with BS class tank at BS class range! What's imbalanced about that?!
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Tagami Wasp
Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2009.10.21 04:29:00 -
[219]
Edited by: Tagami Wasp on 21/10/2009 04:34:45 Edited by: Tagami Wasp on 21/10/2009 04:32:31 Edited by: Tagami Wasp on 21/10/2009 04:31:16 No, I suggested a 700 dps Drake that needs scram and web to work. Like a blaster boat or a Pulse-harbi. Doesn't make a difference from where it is now anyway..
I made a proposal. You don't like it? If you scale damage, you get this. You run the numbers and give us a better proposal. BTW, I tried to use figures as close to those in the game right now, especially for ROF.
18.75 x7 = 131.25 dps. apply to this the BCU and ship bonus toget final figure (it's not 1000 dps as you think.)
|
Liang Nuren
No Salvation War.Pigs.
|
Posted - 2009.10.21 04:32:00 -
[220]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 21/10/2009 04:33:58
Originally by: Tagami Wasp No, I suggested a 700 dps Drake that needs scram and web to work. Like a blaster boat or a Pulse-harbi. Doesn't make a difference from where it is now anyway.
A Drake right now easily hits 600 DPS (missile only). 40% more is 840, +99 for drones is 940. Throw in a couple 3% implants and you're looking at an easy 1000 DPS Drake with the best buffer there is.
-Liang
Quote: I made a proposal. You don't like it? If you scale damage, you get this. You run the numbers and give us a better proposal.
You made a ridiculously WTF-overpowered proposal. Seriously, did you even stop to think for a couple of seconds about how your proposal would affect game balance? How about you look at the problem areas, not a total revamping of the game? -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
|
Tagami Wasp
Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2009.10.21 04:40:00 -
[221]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
You made a ridiculously WTF-overpowered proposal. Seriously, did you even stop to think for a couple of seconds about how your proposal would affect game balance? How about you look at the problem areas, not a total revamping of the game?
Yes, and my reckoning is that with the CURRENT fitting requirements, that's what missiles should be producing. Reduce HAM PG requirements and we can look at them again. If you keep PG requirements as is, this is what HAMS should be. Cry as much as you want, this was calculated on the premise of torpedoes being fine.
|
Liang Nuren
No Salvation War.Pigs.
|
Posted - 2009.10.21 04:46:00 -
[222]
Originally by: Tagami Wasp Cry as much as you want, this was calculated on the premise of torpedoes being fine.
I'm not "crying" I'm calling you out on a request to overboost missiles. If you'd like to see examples TODAY of CCP breaking the "static relationships", you have to look no further than the proposed projectile boost. Additionally, torps are balanced around ships having only 6 weapon slots.
So maybe if we nerf the Drake back to a 6/2 layout, nerfed its fittings significantly, and put out the *HUGE* penalties from torps so that they simply can't deal damage to a "same sized" target.
Of course, and that's just the effect on one ship. What else. Oh, nerf the Cerberus too. And the Caracal. Hell, just nerf all the Caldari missile ships fittings (even more) and maybe remove a missile slot.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Tagami Wasp
Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2009.10.21 04:51:00 -
[223]
Numbers or grab a hankie. Otherwise you are just yowling.
|
Davinel Lulinvega
|
Posted - 2009.10.21 04:59:00 -
[224]
Edited by: Davinel Lulinvega on 21/10/2009 04:59:57
Originally by: Tagami Wasp Numbers or grab a hankie. Otherwise you are just yowling.
Your suggestion is so stupid it's not worth the time running the numbers on everything just to see what's obvious at first glance.
Unless you were parodying allen, in which case it's hilarious.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke!
inb4 stealth edit |
Brodde Dim
Hyper-Nova
|
Posted - 2009.10.21 05:16:00 -
[225]
Originally by: Tagami Wasp Again. I am talking about HAMs. You are talking about HMLs. I say HAMs need to have 10 PG les requirement or all of the HAM capable ships to have an increase in PG to be able to fit HAMs without fitting mods and a rig. I use Caracal as an example. Nighthawk is another. You fail at reading comprehension. I give you comparable fittings, so that you can understand that in order for each ship to perform roughly equivalent and you go on about me learning to fly something else.
I despair at making people understand. Numbers don't help, examples neither. When everyone say they have trouble fitting HAMs to ship that are supposed to fly with HAMs people that fly blaster-boats complain about optimal. SUre, I'll trust YOUR experience Gallente-boy. I am sure you fly missile ships.
It's not worth my time. Just kill it.
I fly 99% Caldari missile boats, and have done so for the last 3 years or so. But that is not the point.
The numbers you present are not necessarily wrong. The reasoning behind it is however.
I don't really care if there are problems creating a good HAM caracal fit, or a good tachyon armageddon, or a good AC Muninn. If you want to create an abomination, go ahead, but you will need to make sacrifices, and it is not an optimal solution.
You cannot make every ship good at everything. And even striving to make all ships equal in all situations is a terrible strategy for a game. No point in having fitting, or different ships or even races then.
And you are not showing comparable fittings. You are making stupid comparisons.
If you fly other ships, then do exactly that when you need a short range high damage cruiser or CS. If all you fly is missile ships, I can see the urge to make them overpowered and good at everything.
|
Liang Nuren
No Salvation War.Pigs.
|
Posted - 2009.10.21 05:19:00 -
[226]
Originally by: Tagami Wasp Numbers or grab a hankie. Otherwise you are just yowling.
The problem areas are: - Roflkets (in general) suck. - Precision missiles (in general) don't hit small/fast targets well. - Cruise DPS is a little low for the role it performs now - Missiles suck at range
So: - Missile Bombardment -> 10% missile velocity/lvl - Boost roflket damage by ~20% and boost roflket explosion velocity by ~60% (pulling this number totally out of my ass here, but it would allow for only very very minor damage reduction by a non-nano MWDing frig and make the Kestrel very very very powerful) - Cruise missile range is a bit long (even with the 10% missile velocity), trade 20% range for 20% better explosion radius - Boost precisions to make them about 3/4s as effective as T1 missiles of the appropriate size
Well, it's at least a much more reasonable base-line.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Omara Otawan
|
Posted - 2009.10.21 05:53:00 -
[227]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 21/10/2009 05:54:50
Originally by: Liang Nuren
- Boost roflket damage by ~20% and boost roflket explosion velocity by ~60% (pulling this number totally out of my ass here, but it would allow for only very very minor damage reduction by a non-nano MWDing frig and make the Kestrel very very very powerful)
While I agree with giving rockets a bit more damage, keep in mind they are the unguided variant, and should therefor have trouble hitting fastmoving and / or smallish signature targets. Like torps compared to cruises.
If you ask me what rockets need is the fitting requirement being inline with light missiles, which means increase PG a lot, and on the other hand lower a bit on lights. Combined with a damage boost that would scale well compared to the other missile classes, no more changes needed.
|
Tagami Wasp
Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2009.10.21 06:05:00 -
[228]
Edited by: Tagami Wasp on 21/10/2009 06:09:04
Originally by: Brodde Dim rable rable
The numbers you present are not necessarily wrong. The reasoning behind it is however.
My reasoning follows Occam's Razor. Go for the simplest solution. All the other weapon systems utilize different vehicle (turret size) to deliver the same payload (ammo of same size) at different distances. The damage modifier at the turret corrects for different turret sizes and ROF, not the munition. Optimal is also a feature of the turret.
In missiles, there is no damage modifier. Short and long range missiles are differentiated by using different payload and different ROF. This is inconsistent as it is a basis for variation that leads to imbalance. It is much simpler if we use the same payload and differentiate vehicle (HAM or HML for example) to determine optimal and adjust ROF to achieve balance.
So for those tl;dr guys out there:
one unit of long range missile should deliver the same damage at 100as one unit of short at 25 Km unguided / guided missiles should have different ROF
balance ships through missile velocity (optimal) and ROF
tracking corresponds to explosion velocity/ target velocity explosion radius/ signature corresponds to quality of hit.
|
Liang Nuren
No Salvation War.Pigs.
|
Posted - 2009.10.21 06:14:00 -
[229]
Originally by: Tagami Wasp My reasoning follows Occam's Razor. Go for the simplest solution.
Occam would say that your proposal kinda sucks - because it requires revamping the entire game. TL;DR: your proposal is as wrong as Allen
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Tagami Wasp
Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2009.10.21 06:30:00 -
[230]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Tagami Wasp My reasoning follows Occam's Razor. Go for the simplest solution.
Occam would say that your proposal kinda sucks - because it requires revamping the entire game. TL;DR: your proposal is as wrong as Allen
-Liang
It does not requires touching the ships' boni at all. All you change is the ROF of launchers and the damage output of the warhead. Those ships that need buff get buffed, the rest are pretty much the same. If you are worried about specific ships, do the math and point them out. However,please use a spreadsheet and not the toilet bowl, ok?
|
|
Liang Nuren
No Salvation War.Pigs.
|
Posted - 2009.10.21 06:40:00 -
[231]
Originally by: Tagami Wasp It does not requires touching the ships' boni at all. All you change is the ROF of launchers and the damage output of the warhead. Those ships that need buff get buffed, the rest are pretty much the same. If you are worried about specific ships, do the math and point them out. However,please use a spreadsheet and not the toilet bowl, ok?
For starters, a 1000 DPS Drake - and that's just for starters.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Tagami Wasp
Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2009.10.21 07:00:00 -
[232]
Edited by: Tagami Wasp on 21/10/2009 07:01:20
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Tagami Wasp It does not requires touching the ships' boni at all. All you change is the ROF of launchers and the damage output of the warhead. Those ships that need buff get buffed, the rest are pretty much the same. If you are worried about specific ships, do the math and point them out. However,please use a spreadsheet and not the toilet bowl, ok?
For starters, a 1000 DPS Drake - and that's just for starters.
-Liang
[Drake, New Setup 1] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Damage Control II
10MN MicroWarpdrive I Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Photon Scattering Field II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile [empty high slot]
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Hobgoblin II x5
Liang, this is the max dps / max tank HAM configuration allowed by the slots available on a Drake. Unfortunately for you it cannot fit due to both PG and CPU shortfall. If you are afraid of this and using it for comparisons, you are full of Bull ****e.
Originally by: Liang Nuren
- Boost roflket damage by ~20% and boost roflket explosion velocity by ~60% (pulling this number totally out of my ass here, but it would allow for only very very minor damage reduction by a non-nano MWDing frig and make the Kestrel very very very powerful)... -Liang
Thanks for confirming earlier that whatever you say you just pull it out of your anterior, as I suspected.
|
Davinel Lulinvega
|
Posted - 2009.10.21 07:09:00 -
[233]
Wow, are you really that stupid? You can't take 2 seconds to look up the cookie cutter drake fit and instead post some **** about how drakes can't do their max dps? [Drake, pew] Damage Control II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Fleeting Warp Disruptor I Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile [empty high slot]
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Warrior II x5
Deals 519 dps from launchers with cn terror, 578 with terror rage while having 83k ehp. Your changes would bump that up to 726 and 809 dps respectively. Add drones back in (5 warrior 2s deal 80 dps) and we're at 806 or 889 dps. Which is absurd. Just stop posting, you might hurt yourself if you try thinking too hard.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke!
inb4 stealth edit |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation War.Pigs.
|
Posted - 2009.10.21 07:13:00 -
[234]
Originally by: Tagami Wasp
[Drake, New Setup 1] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Damage Control II
10MN MicroWarpdrive I Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Photon Scattering Field II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile [empty high slot]
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Hobgoblin II x5
Liang, this is the max dps / max tank HAM configuration allowed by the slots available on a Drake. Unfortunately for you it cannot fit due to both PG and CPU shortfall. If you are afraid of this and using it for comparisons, you are full of Bull ****e.
You fail at fitting.
[Drake, PVP HAM Drake] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Internal Force Field Array I
10MN MicroWarpdrive I Invulnerability Field II Warp Scrambler II Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Hobgoblin II x5
Rage Assaults (which ARE viable in gang combat and against BS's): 613+99 DPS / 82K EHP (+40% missile damage = 957 DPS@19km) Faction assaults: 551 + 99DPS (+40% missile damage = 870 DPS)
Yes it fits, right now, today. My skills.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Tagami Wasp
Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2009.10.21 12:25:00 -
[235]
Edited by: Tagami Wasp on 21/10/2009 12:33:39 Once more, cause it's too early and I can't post without spelling errors without coffee.
LOL, use a clone without implants. That needs a PG4. You fail again Liang. I won't even commment on the rage etc. Go roam in 0.0 in a Drake fitted with Rage. Bleh, talking to carebears like they understand. Don't forget to post the LOLkillmails.
P.S. Don't eat your keyboard.
|
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
|
Posted - 2009.10.21 13:18:00 -
[236]
I preferred it when I thought Tagami was trolling Allen, rather than just being an idiot.
|
Lemmy Kravitz
|
Posted - 2009.10.21 13:49:00 -
[237]
Originally by: Kail Storm Edited by: Kail Storm on 29/09/2009 00:16:07 Edited by: Kail Storm on 29/09/2009 00:14:29 Merin are you completely opposed to cutting 50% flight time and doubling Velocity? If so why or why not? Are you against adding the Sig radius skill to all missles?
I think it would balance missle VS Turret Alpha situation and at least make missles at semi long range an option.
So long as you remember that missles always hit they should not get close to Turret Alpha ever. you may bring up the flight time issue. But that really is a red herring. after the initial volley your Rate of Dmg will be just like a turret acts. When I think sniper boat I usually think Aba, or raven. When I come across a sniper in fleet pvp it's usually an aba, or a raven. Long range combat with missles is very much viable. Light missles and Rockets definetly need a good looking at. ALSO let us not forget DEFENDER MISSLES. Those really need the fix more than anything. I've played almost for a 2 yrs now, and the only time I see them used is when a noob discovers them and thinks to himself (like every person in the game has the first time they discover defender missles) Oh **** this is cool!
|
Tagami Wasp
Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2009.10.21 14:00:00 -
[238]
Originally by: Gypsio III I preferred it when I thought Tagami was trolling Allen, rather than just being an idiot.
Wait a minute there mate, who says I can't troll Liang AND Allen?
|
Jack Icegaard
The Omega Project
|
Posted - 2009.10.21 14:33:00 -
[239]
Got to love these topics, so much drama and entertainment. Cant we have a sequel already? "take III: Whats really is wrong with missiles and what really, really should be done about it"
Cant wait for more cryptic math, arguments about nothing, personal attacks and most important, a lot of spanking of dead horses.
|
IceBergSlim
|
Posted - 2009.10.21 15:45:00 -
[240]
Originally by: Jack Icegaard Got to love these topics, so much drama and entertainment. Cant we have a sequel already? "take III: Whats really is wrong with missiles and what really, really should be done about it"
Cant wait for more cryptic math, arguments about nothing, personal attacks and most important, a lot of spanking of dead horses.
cheers mate, i was trying to figger' out how to put it myself. they really should make cartoons about threads like this.
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 [8] 9 10 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |