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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 7 post(s)
Theodore Kaczynski Minmatar	Posted - 2009.10.27 17:06:00 - [1321] I like the new changes to the ammo types. However, to make the full use of it, please let us swap projectile (or at least autocannon) ammo more quickly (I like the idea of 2 seconds, like old Amarr). At this point, there's almost no reason to ever swap ammo, because waiting 10 seconds to fire is a huge disadvantage, much larger than the advantage of being able to have a somewhat better damage type. Also, DPS will never be artillery's strong point. Alpha is. 1200's also need the very high alpha.
Ulstan	Posted - 2009.10.27 17:22:00 - [1322] I can't help but think hybrids are really going to need a look after projectiles, if projectiles wind up with no cap use, ability to switch damage types (hybrids are locked into kin/therm) and ability to reload ammo types in 2s.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2009.10.27 18:09:00 - [1323] Originally by: Linas IV 1:Hail (maybe even Barrage) will become complete useless once we get RF-Fusion with those changes. (better tracking, good dmg) => Maybe rethink T2 Ammo for all gun-types alltogether Hail was only marginally useful because fusion sucked. Now it is as useless as Void and Conflag. The problem is about high damage T2 ammunition and their crippling penalties, not about this boost. Barrage, Scorch and Null are all very useful. These changes in no way affect barrage. Quote: 2:The Naglfar might get pretty OP with choosable dmg-types compared to Moros or Rev. The Revelation is still by far the best dread even with the improved ability to change damage types from the naglfar. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Cpt Branko The Scope	Posted - 2009.10.27 18:27:00 - [1324] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 27/10/2009 18:28:55 Originally by: To mare still waiting for a point to use AC over blaster or pulse Um, now devs have decided to give Minmatar functioning PP, functioning EMP and easy to use Hail equivalent, and you're still whining plus falloff increase by tier plus passable range bonuses with TEs... seriously, this is all Minmatar needs to have competitive guns. Any remaining disability to compete is either because: (a) You suck at using Minmatar (b) You picked the wrong ship for the job Didn't you use to whine about Amarr until they got boosted to silly levels? ;) In before "tempest is still crap". Anyway, off to SISI whoring. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint
Uncle Smokey	Posted - 2009.10.27 18:27:00 - [1325] -give falloff related **** 25% moar OR -take that 25% off the displayed value OR -change the displayed value in to full (2x) falloff Just to make things easier. How about that?
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.27 18:36:00 - [1326] Originally by: Cpt Branko In before "tempest is still crap". I will not rest until this issue is resolved. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Cpt Branko The Scope	Posted - 2009.10.27 18:42:00 - [1327] Originally by: Pattern Clarc Originally by: Cpt Branko In before "tempest is still crap". I will not rest until this issue is resolved. Ok, but it's a Tempest problem, not a AC problem. The ship just doesn't know what it wants to do with itself with its layout and double damage bonus but lack of lows for credible BS tank+gank (and small dronebay by BS standards), but it's supposedly versatile because of that, so I just fly something which is more focused towards RRBS action (a Typhoon). Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2009.10.27 18:59:00 - [1328] Originally by: CCP Nozh Beautiful things I still have to pore over the implications of all this, but Nozh, I just want to salute you sir for listening. o7 CCP Rocks.
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.27 19:00:00 - [1329] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Pattern Clarc Originally by: Cpt Branko In before "tempest is still crap". I will not rest until this issue is resolved. Ok, but it's a Tempest problem, not a AC problem. The ship just doesn't know what it wants to do with itself with its layout and double damage bonus but lack of lows for credible BS tank+gank (and small dronebay by BS standards), but it's supposedly versatile because of that, so I just fly something which is more focused towards RRBS action (a Typhoon). Indeed. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2009.10.27 19:17:00 - [1330] Originally by: Theodore Kaczynski I like the new changes to the ammo types. However, to make the full use of it, please let us swap projectile (or at least autocannon) ammo more quickly (I like the idea of 2 seconds, like old Amarr). At this point, there's almost no reason to ever swap ammo, because waiting 10 seconds to fire is a huge disadvantage, much larger than the advantage of being able to have a somewhat better damage type. Also, DPS will never be artillery's strong point. Alpha is. 1200's also need the very high alpha. I disagree about shortening the reload time. Missiles have the same issue: true damage type selection, but the issue is that you need intel or an understanding of common fits to put it to good use. With the latest revision, EMP would be the best to shoot at shields, Fusion the best at armor, and Phased Plasma the all-round safest bet (the way people use EMP now). Having true damage selection and the ability to change types quickly would be borderline OP in my eyes. Like hell would I ask for a Drake to be able to do that. The difference between 1200 and 1400 is fine for me. If you're concerned about Alpha, you're using the biggest guns anyway. But this offers a big difference in tactics between the two weapons. I'd never turn that down.

Javelin6 Minmatar Dirt Nap Squad	Posted - 2009.10.27 19:27:00 - [1331] Originally by: CCP Nozh Thanks for all the feedback, sorry for not being active in the thread, there is tons of other work to do besides posting on the forums (and projectile balancing for that matter). You'll be able to test the second iteration of the projectile changes on Singularity tomorrow. Ammo Changes - Base Values: Long Range (1.6 range modifier - 5 damage - 5% tracking bonus): Carbonized Lead - 4 kinetic / 1 explosive Nuclear - 4 explosive / 1 kinetic Proton - 3 em / 2 kinetic Medium Range (1.0 range modifier - 8 damage - 20% tracking bonus): Depleted Uranium - 3 explosive / 3 thermal / 2 kinetic Titanium Sabot - 6 kinetic / 2 explosive Short Range (0.5 range modifier - 12 damage): EMP - 9 em / 2 explosive / 1 kinetic Phased Plasma - 10 thermal / 2 kinetic Fusion - 10 explosive / 2 kinetic Tracking Computer / Enhancer changes: Tracking Computer falloff bonus fixed. Bonus doubled Stacking nerfed Tracking links also have a falloff modifier Autocannons / Repeating Artillery Falloff increases by tier. I'm still not too happy with these, will be worked on more next iteration. Artillery Instead of increasing alpha on both weapon tiers of each size class, you now have a choice. 1200's low alpha, fast rate of fire. 1400's high alpha, slow rate of fire. Changes look good. Looking forward to trying it out. Having a reason to choose between 1200's and 1400's could be very cool as long as there is a substantial difference between them. Don't forget to look into how T2 ammo (AC & ATRY) will fit in with the faction ammo of course. ____________________________________________
Roland Thorne Dark Sun Collective Kahora Catori	Posted - 2009.10.27 19:30:00 - [1332] Originally by: Seriously Bored Originally by: Theodore Kaczynski I like the new changes to the ammo types. However, to make the full use of it, please let us swap projectile (or at least autocannon) ammo more quickly (I like the idea of 2 seconds, like old Amarr). At this point, there's almost no reason to ever swap ammo, because waiting 10 seconds to fire is a huge disadvantage, much larger than the advantage of being able to have a somewhat better damage type. Also, DPS will never be artillery's strong point. Alpha is. 1200's also need the very high alpha. I disagree about shortening the reload time. Missiles have the same issue: true damage type selection, but the issue is that you need intel or an understanding of common fits to put it to good use. With the latest revision, EMP would be the best to shoot at shields, Fusion the best at armor, and Phased Plasma the all-round safest bet (the way people use EMP now). Having true damage selection and the ability to change types quickly would be borderline OP in my eyes. Like hell would I ask for a Drake to be able to do that. The difference between 1200 and 1400 is fine for me. If you're concerned about Alpha, you're using the biggest guns anyway. But this offers a big difference in tactics between the two weapons. I'd never turn that down. Yes, agreed.
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.27 19:31:00 - [1333] Other things to consider. Reduce the CPU usage of Shield transferers. Have a second look at Active Tanking Bonuses as they do not compare at all with resistance bonuses (Eg, make them dual bonuses to both Boost amount and cap use, remote repair or HP - similar to the way drone bonuses are applied) The tempest and fleet tempest need a role. As the Phoon is the gang RR mobile and the maelstrom will always be a better fleet ship - a good idea may be to give the tempest a tracking bonus in exchange for the damage bonus, increase the ROF bonus to 7.5, increase the drone bay/bandwidth to 100mb, together with a 7 med shield tank - as so it's not just another XYZ armour RR BS, Amarr wanna be.>. Improve the Maelstroms agility. The Phoon is now perfect. Faction tracking computers/enhancers should give +40% bonus to fall off. Otherwise, bring on tomorrow. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest)
Dibsi Dei Salamyhkaisten kilta HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2009.10.27 20:03:00 - [1334] Please don't take away my EMP... Changing ammo takes 10 seconds, and that is a lot in pvp.
Liang Nuren No Salvation War.Pigs.	Posted - 2009.10.27 20:09:00 - [1335] Interesting changes. I'll take a look at them in depth as soon as I get home. As long as the ambit rig is also doubled, my gut says these changes are good. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2009.10.27 20:10:00 - [1336] Edited by: Seriously Bored on 27/10/2009 20:11:50 Originally by: Dibsi Dei Please don't take away my EMP... Changing ammo takes 10 seconds, and that is a lot in pvp. They didn't take it away, they just made it a potent shield killer. :-) I think you'll like the new PP as much as you like the current EMP. (Invuln/EANM buffer tanked ships have similar EHP against both of them currently).
Dibsi Dei Salamyhkaisten kilta HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2009.10.27 20:27:00 - [1337] Originally by: Seriously Bored Edited by: Seriously Bored on 27/10/2009 20:11:50 Originally by: Dibsi Dei Please don't take away my EMP... Changing ammo takes 10 seconds, and that is a lot in pvp. They didn't take it away, they just made it a potent shield killer. :-) I think you'll like the new PP as much as you like the current EMP. (Invuln/EANM buffer tanked ships have similar EHP against both of them currently). PP was fine against shield tanks and EMP against t2 shield tanks. EMP being em/kin/exp also meant minmatar ships to be able to fight without bringing 4-5 different ammo in cargo.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2009.10.27 20:36:00 - [1338] Originally by: Dibsi Dei Originally by: Seriously Bored Edited by: Seriously Bored on 27/10/2009 20:11:50 Originally by: Dibsi Dei Please don't take away my EMP... Changing ammo takes 10 seconds, and that is a lot in pvp. They didn't take it away, they just made it a potent shield killer. :-) I think you'll like the new PP as much as you like the current EMP. (Invuln/EANM buffer tanked ships have similar EHP against both of them currently). PP was fine against shield tanks and EMP against t2 shield tanks. EMP being em/kin/exp also meant minmatar ships to be able to fight without bringing 4-5 different ammo in cargo. What part of Both armor and shield ships having the SAME EHP against the new PP than they had against the old EMP didn't you understand? If you want to be just like you were before, bring PP now where you would bring EMP. If you actually want to think and explore the new possibilities use the other ammunitions whne they are due. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Secluse Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2009.10.27 20:38:00 - [1339] Originally by: CCP Nozh Medium Range (1.0 range modifier - 8 damage - 20% tracking bonus) The 20% tracking bonus is directly offset by the damage reduction, as it was in the original tweak. I think the ammo tiers are an excellent idea (sort by range, then choose damage type), and the tracking bonus is an excellent idea to make mid-range useful - however the bonus is insufficient to make the absolute damage loss of close-range ammo viable. Originally by: CCP Nozh Tracking Computer / Enhancer changes: Tracking Computer falloff bonus fixed. Bonus doubled Stacking nerfed Tracking links also have a falloff modifier I am happy to see that finally falloff is seen to be inferior to optimal in bonuses. Any thoughts to tweak Trajectory Analysis and other falloff modules? Also, are only falloff modules tracking nerfed (TC / TE / TL), or are the falloff rigs stacking nerfed as well? I am hoping that the rigs are being excluded from the stacking nerf. Originally by: CCP Nozh Autocannons / Repeating Artillery Falloff increases by tier. I'm still not too happy with these, will be worked on more next iteration. Excellent. All-in-all, some great changes. The devil is in the detailed numbers, so it'll be interesting to see how the combination of the all changes work together. Look forward to the SISI update.
Roemy Schneider Vanishing Point.	Posted - 2009.10.27 20:55:00 - [1340] Originally by: CCP Nozh Autocannons / Repeating Artillery Falloff increases by tier. I'm still not too happy with these, will be worked on more next iteration. do! not! go! there! next thing you know the vaga will join the same therapy group as the deimos and dr phil will host shows about "i lost my purpose in life to a BC" with a 50% viewing rate. Quote: Instead of increasing alpha on both weapon tiers of each size class, you now have a choice. 1200's low alpha, fast rate of fire. still ****ty dps, i assume? you can shove it around all you want. it's time to actually add something. and do it to the ship hulls or we _will_ put 1400mm on abaddons. - putting the gist back into logistics

Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2009.10.27 20:58:00 - [1341] Originally by: Etho Demerzel What part of Both armor and shield ships having the SAME EHP against the new PP than they had against the old EMP didn't you understand? I tried the carrot, you tried the stick. Hopefully it'll sink in. Quote: Edit: Oh, and if you want the same exact mix you had before with EMP, just mix the new Fusion and the new EMP between guns. You can even mix the three of them for omni damage as they have exactly the same total damage and exactly the same range now. That's...something I would have never thought about. Omni-damage to fight Omni-tanks. Kind of an interesting (though sub-optimal) idea. I've heard of missile ships doing this and reloading just one or two launchers mid-fight after keeping an eye on the damage log.
Liang Nuren No Salvation War.Pigs.	Posted - 2009.10.27 21:14:00 - [1342] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 27/10/2009 21:15:21 Originally by: Roemy Schneider do! not! go! there! next thing you know the vaga will join the same therapy group as the deimos and dr phil will host shows about "i lost my purpose in life to a BC" with a 50% viewing rate. The Hurricane won't be taking over the Vaga's spot any time soon. It simply isn't good enough at maneuverability. -Liang Ed: formatting -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Cornette Gallente Black Screen of Death Huzzah Federation	Posted - 2009.10.27 21:28:00 - [1343] /me kisses Nozh on his bald head. I thought you forgot us and I'm happy its not so. Now over to some input to what other people posted regarding the Tempest: I always seen the tier 3 battleships as mainly tankers. So I would never bring a Maelstrom to a fleet bs fight, it is to big, to slow, not that agile and the tank bonus will not make that much of a difference if I get primary by 20+ hostile snipers and are stuck in a bubble dropped by a dictor. With six med slots I either fit it for sniping with 1400's or for tanking, but it is impossible to do both effectively. It also cost more to lose a Maelstrom then a tempest so its not something I think makes sense to bring. The Tempest was the first BS I trained to level 5 long time ago and used as a sniper in fleets. With no more tank then a DCU I fitted 2 gyros and 2 TE in the low (and one rcu II to fit the mwd+guns) to be able to hit targets as far as the other races bs could do and with effective damage. I had to give up the tempest when the titan craziness and frequent use of DD become commonplace and go over to a mega instead. And because enemy FC's often primary a tempest first for a reason With my mega I can fit a good tank with 40k armor hitpoints, my damage is mediocre, but I usually live longer then those who still insist on using the Tempest, and I often survive to return back to base. And the same thing is it regarding RR bs fleets. I see only one sensible use for the tempest, other then pos-shootings when nothing shoots on you back: as a solo or very small gang bs with AC's and neuts. I would love to see the ship be a effective sniper but for that the falloff for artillery would have to be increased considerably so it at least can hit to same range as a mega with 250's. Note that I say falloff, not optimal. We don't need it to be a copy of rails. Artillery also need tracking improved, a lot. Why do tachyons have the best tracking when they have the longest range? The 1400's needs increased tracking so they at least can hit a barn 100 meters away. Fix these 2 things and I be a happy camper, lol.
Roemy Schneider Vanishing Point.	Posted - 2009.10.27 21:44:00 - [1344] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 27/10/2009 21:15:21 Originally by: Roemy Schneider do! not! go! there! next thing you know the vaga will join the same therapy group as the deimos and dr phil will host shows about "i lost my purpose in life to a BC" with a 50% viewing rate. The Hurricane won't be taking over the Vaga's spot any time soon. It simply isn't good enough at maneuverability. -Liang Ed: formatting 's true, i was exaggerating ^^ but i don't see any use for the d180mm vaga either i'd prefer more falloff on _lower_ tiers tbh - putting the gist back into logistics
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Beyond Divinity Inc Beyond Virginity	Posted - 2009.10.27 21:52:00 - [1345] Originally by: Roemy Schneider but i don't see any use for the d180mm vaga either i'd prefer more falloff on _lower_ tiers tbh Agreed.
Liang Nuren No Salvation War.Pigs.	Posted - 2009.10.27 22:00:00 - [1346] I'd say you should wait until we see the exact changes before saying lower tier ACs should have higher falloff. But, I should point out that presently nobody fits 425s because there's no point in them when compared to 220s and d180s. The higher tracking from the lower tier ACs easily outdoes the piddling DPS advantage. So, no, lower tier ACs should not have both higher tracking and higher falloff. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Dibsi Dei Salamyhkaisten kilta HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2009.10.27 22:01:00 - [1347] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Oh, and if you want the same exact mix you had before with EMP, just mix the new Fusion and the new EMP between guns. Weapon grouping has destroyed my brain.
Dibsi Dei Salamyhkaisten kilta HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2009.10.27 22:07:00 - [1348] There is still the other matter though, nuclear and other long range ammo getting a 30% damage reduction. Minmatar snipers didn't have that much damage anyways compared to others.
Liang Nuren No Salvation War.Pigs.	Posted - 2009.10.27 22:14:00 - [1349] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 27/10/2009 22:19:36 Originally by: Dibsi Dei There is still the other matter though, nuclear and other long range ammo getting a 30% damage reduction. Minmatar snipers didn't have that much damage anyways compared to others. That's true, but you can't have everything. As it stands, they quite reasonable damage up close, very very reasonable optimal+falloff (really, you should examine this before complaining aout your sniper damage), etc. We don't WANT projectiles to become the new lasers "WAAAH BUT MY $WEAPON_SYSTEM_X ISN'T AS GOOD AS PROJECTILES!". No, that's just asking to have your candy taken away. -Liang Ed: I'm just trying to say that we want to be competitive with the other races... not flat out better in most reasonable respects. The other races have their holes in what they can do as well, so it's not inarguable that we should have some as well. At this point we're running dangerously close to turning overpowered.... so it's not appropriate to keep asking for more. -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2009.10.27 22:22:00 - [1350] I like the changes so far. I'm very interested in seeing what the specific stats are on Sissi. The ammo has been redone to brutal and efficient simplicity. The one thing I saw that I didn't like so much is that the medium range ammo - Depleted Uranium and Titanium Sabot - are very similar. I'd prefer if one medium range ammo type was clearly EM/Therm in nature. The 20% tracking bonus is very interesting.



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