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CCP Abathur
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Posted - 2009.09.21 07:59:00 -
[241]
Edited by: CCP Abathur on 21/09/2009 08:02:14
Originally by: Vxrasa
This thread needs more Admiral Ackbar quotes tbh.
+1
So, it's been an interesting first weekend of testing. Here is a small list of issues that we intend to address in the next couple weeks (then you all get to try that out, etc...):
XL Turret tracking: Obviously we are going to take a look at this. It's something we knew would probably be an issue but we wanted to see just how much of one under mass testing conditions. Basically, no, we do not want your AC Raggy to one-volley the Vagabonds buzzing around your giant e-peen. Having a limited effectiveness against battleships is reasonable but these should still be primarily anti-capital weaponry. We won't rush a fix on this and intend to research it thoroughly.
XL Turret damage: May go down, very doubtful it will go up.
DD Damage: The intention is for the weapon to kill capital ships, which it seems to do fine unless a pilot specifically tanks for the damage expected. At this time we're satisfied with the current damage and see no need to change it up or down but we're still weeks away from Dominion. Keep on shooting and talking.
DD Fuel usage: There is a reason you can carry about 40-60 minutes worth of fuel for the weapon - that's roughly the same amount of siege / triage fuel most capital ships are capable of carrying into a fight.
DD Rate of Fire: If we do anything we may increase it, but calling for it to be less than it is now is kinda 
The 'slave implant' issue: We're looking at it.
DD targeting of structures: We don't want to see 'Starbase drive-bys' anymore than many of you do, so we will certianly take a look at this.
Docking of Titans: No.
Shoop Cannon nickname: Heh. 
Please remember that this is not the last time we plan to touch Titans. The changes for Dominion are intended to bring them 'up to date' so to speak and give them some capability to stand on their own but not alone. We are not in a rush and will keep refining this until the last minute.
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LoveKebab
Caldari
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.09.21 09:01:00 -
[242]
Edited by: LoveKebab on 21/09/2009 09:04:26
let's say i can deal with titans being able to instapop capital ships but why in the world does it have scan resolution of MS that is like 10x smaller ? and to think that until now they didnt even have a single target locked on i rly dont see any reason in giving them this big scan res...
usually it's "the larger ship is, the smaller scan resolution it gets" why then the largest ship has just 50% of BS scan res ? 2-5 any1 ? let's make it WORTH of locking whoever u wish to kill (+ it would also gonna decrese amound of camping titans imo)
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CONVlCTED
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Posted - 2009.09.21 09:08:00 -
[243]
Originally by: CCP Abathur
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Quote:
These changes will simply make small entities in 0.0 obsolete. You'll never ever see a small capital ship engagement again. Imagine the effect even a single Titan would have on a 20v20 capital ship battle. The changes have 'power block' and 'super alliance' written all over it.
What's your thoughts on this then Abathur? I thought one of the big goals of Dominion was to make changes that make it possible for some smaller entities to have a go at 0.0 space. A single titan will be a big enough deterrent to scare these off.
Also what's your thought on the titan numbers we currently have and how it will develop. There will be more and more of these ships. Having one alliance field a dozen titans at one time isn't far off.
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Adam Ridgway
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.09.21 11:27:00 -
[244]
Originally by: LoveKebab
i didnt see a single hic that can tank a racial DD even after it was fit with 2 hardeners ...
I doubt they should be able lol. You let the Titan fire and then takle it in the cooldown, what you should be tanking (if orbiting close) is the XL guns, more or less. I think a a HICs should be able to hold the titan some minutes (until the next deathray shoot) so a dread/titan/supercarrier fleet can cyno and destroy it.
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Battle Tested
Shiva
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Posted - 2009.09.21 12:12:00 -
[245]
So far in testing it seems that a Titan can instapop all carriers with a typical setup. It can almost instapop phoenix's, takes 2 shots to pop a revelation or moros....BUT.....it can instapop a Naglfar!! I like the Titan DD, but after testing it proves that the Naglfar needs a boost to be in line with the other dreads. Also after testing the Titan and Supercarrier definately still need a large boost to their local reppers. 200% bonus to repair amounts should be in line with where they should be. Also the slave sets on armor tanking caps makes them far more superior than shield tankers. Crystal sets HAVE to be effective on capitals to put them on the same scale as the other capitals. |
Zeveron
Destructive Influence
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Posted - 2009.09.21 12:46:00 -
[246]
Quote:
Crystal sets HAVE to be effective on capitals to put them on the same scale as the other capitals
this, as I also mentioned some posts above and in other threads.
Same goes for the instant erebus armor bonus vs the "have to be boosted" leviathan shield bonus.
Not to mention the extra 8% armor hps implant which does not have an equivalent shield implant.
If there are balance issues you can freely take my passive shield recharge away to give me the same buffer as the erebus :-)
With 3x reps an erebus can tank nearly as much as a leviathan with a booster and 2 amps with much more buffer, which I dont think is balanced.
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LoveKebab
Caldari
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.09.21 13:18:00 -
[247]
Edited by: LoveKebab on 21/09/2009 13:23:03
Originally by: Adam Ridgway
Originally by: LoveKebab
i didnt see a single hic that can tank a racial DD even after it was fit with 2 hardeners ...
I doubt they should be able lol. You let the Titan fire and then takle it in the cooldown, what you should be tanking (if orbiting close) is the XL guns, more or less. I think a a HICs should be able to hold the titan some minutes (until the next deathray shoot) so a dread/titan/supercarrier fleet can cyno and destroy it.
1 wrecking hit and ur done ...
also the pirate implants should NOT have any effect on caps like any titan will even bother with changing their nomads to respected sets (slaves for armor and crystals for shield tank) besides there is a reason behind crystals not working for capital boosters
they have almost the same boost BUT 1/3 base duration of armor rep - makes them almost 3x more efficient and most of titans put 2 boosters on + some AMPS (hey, look - there is not amp for armor tank)
shield tank has already many advantages over armor tank and u want to make it even more powerful
most ppl here want some superepicbbq boost cuz they actually own a titan and they are afraid of losing it - yay for having ship that is totally indestructible...
this was supose to be TITAN NERF, not titan boost ...
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Zeveron
Destructive Influence
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Posted - 2009.09.21 13:37:00 -
[248]
Quote:
they have almost the same boost BUT 1/3 base duration of armor rep - makes them almost 3x more efficient and most of titans put 2 boosters on + some AMPS (hey, look - there is not amp for armor tank)
totaly wrong.
With 3x tanking mods (3x reps or 1x booster and 2x amps) the boosting/repping ammount is about the same and you can manage stable capacitor tank on both setups.
The impact of the repping at the end of the cycle or at the begining has no effect with that buffer.
I see no reason not to have a balanced crystal set or a new set giving shield buffer.
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LoveKebab
Caldari
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.09.21 14:22:00 -
[249]
Edited by: LoveKebab on 21/09/2009 14:26:13
ok, following ur way of thinking Zeveron:
Erebus: 3x capital rep = 9600HP x 3 reps / 22.5sec time = 1280hp/s
Leviathan: 1x capital booster + 2x TECH 2 amps = 12855hp (lol have u ever seen some1 using those on a supercapital ? let's all fit supefcaps with t2, it's fun) / 10 sec = 1280hp/s
and now let's see hows faction tank going:
Leviathan 2: 2x capital shield booster + 2x X-Type amps + 2 officer CPR + 1 officer cap recharger = 10455*2 / 10sec duration = 2100dps tank (cap sustainable above 40% depends of what mods u use exacly, i was trying with the cheapest ones ...)
and that's RAW tank, however we wont see this happening cuz who would want to sacrifice lowslots for 2x PDU, 2x CPR and DC on leviathan - u would not be able to fit istabs and friction nozzles and ur titan might actually end up being tackled lol
also see that most armor tanked titans should have(again, stop pretending for we all know they are nanoed anyway) Xtype hardeners and maybe 1-2 EANMS when shield tanked ones only need like 3 officer invuls or maybe 2 invuls and 1 em hardener and they still got better resists than armor tankers - i intentionally used 5 meds on leviathan and left it with 3 cuz u dont rly need anything exept dc and 3 hardeners to have a very good tank abilities ...
oh and yea, again it gonna be rly hard to see leviathan tanked this way cuz with 2 cap boosters u have no room for .... MWD but hey, since when they are designed for using mwd in the 1st place?
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Noskire
Caldari
Evolution
IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.21 14:28:00 -
[250]
Honestly, Titans does not work at all as was intended. Even with suggested changes they'll be rather borked, and titan clusters will cause some huge imbalances. I suggest you rename em 'super dreadnaughts', nerf em a little bit (from their suggested statistics), give them new skins, lower mineral costs, reimburse titan pilots (for the material difference), and re-add titans in the future, when you can deliver them 'working properly'. (also for a rather higher cost, and perhaps even with a maintenance cost; to keep alliances from building huge numbers of them.
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ThorTheGreat
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.21 17:17:00 -
[251]
Originally by: Noskire
Honestly, Titans does not work at all as was intended. Even with suggested changes they'll be rather borked, and titan clusters will cause some huge imbalances. I suggest you rename em 'super dreadnaughts', nerf em a little bit (from their suggested statistics), give them new skins, lower mineral costs, reimburse titan pilots (for the material difference), and re-add titans in the future, when you can deliver them 'working properly'. (also for a rather higher cost, and perhaps even with a maintenance cost; to keep alliances from building huge numbers of them.
titans that do not adapt, become victims of... DEVOLUTION
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Amy Wang
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Posted - 2009.09.21 17:45:00 -
[252]
Quote:
The 'slave implant' issue: We're looking at it.
Better keep in mind that shields passively regenerate (which will become an even bigger advantage for repping up the oodles of HP the new supercaps have after fights) and that high end omi-tank mods for shield are far superior to the comparable mods for armor.
Imho the slave effect is fine as it is atm.
Having slaves not affect Caps would be completely wrong, the only thing imagineable would be to introduce an implant set for a shield hp boost which needs to have a considerably weaker effect then the slave set for above reasons (and ofc another implant set to affect armor repair rate same as current crystal set to keep it fair).
But why make everything equal?
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Shadow's Caress
Abh Empire
Atropos.
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Posted - 2009.09.21 18:01:00 -
[253]
What we have here is a lack of agreement on what is balanced and what the intended role of a titan should be.
Please consider the sheer size, price tag, and historical rarity of titans taking a role in front line fleet combat. They used to be tactical nuclear weapons. I say that because multiple remote or drive-by DDs were used to clean out BS fleets, but would still not kill cap fleets. I've seen battles where even these tactics did not stop a fleet fight, but changed the flow of the fight.
Now they have been retooled to actually participate in capital fleet combat. There are no more tactical nukes, just large death spewing turds. There is a lot of debate over how many dreads a group of titans should or shouldn't be able to kill, but one large factor is being missed here: Supercarriers. If my math is correct (and I did testing + calculation for the better part of the day on saturday), then scarriers do slightly more DPS from their FBs than titans do with their insane capital guns. To put it simply, the supercapitals as general classes are somewhat balanced with respect to each other, and therefore can kill each other without too much difficulty. Scarriers may very well be titan hunters. These dread fleets you're all talking about are likely to be escorted by scarriers, which ought to balance things out a bit. We'll find out this weekend how true that really is.
In a nutshell: supercapitals will be on a level of their own above regular capitals, which will become nearly disposable. The nullsec system upgrades should offset the extra cost of lost capitals somewhat. If anything, what I see here is an attempt by CCP to make capital combat more fluid and less about timing dread fleet drops.
Supercapitals in general will be much more powerful than anything that can dock in a station. Is there a problem? With the coming changes it will be near impossible to build one and once you get into the pilot seat you won't be able to get out without a disturbance in the force occurring.
As a counterpoint, there will be an interesting dynamic where seemingly disposable dreads can form up and hot drop on supercaps. This is the capital equivalent of warping in a large gang of cruiser hulls to kill a well skilled and fitted battleship. You might loose some fully insured ships, but if you do it right (OMG, you have to use tactics!) you can cause more isk damage than you receive.
The only real problem I have with titans and scarriers in dominion is that they will be highly vulnerable during production, which means that the powers which have them now can easily halt all other supercap production. THAT to me is imbalanced.
All in all, I applaud CCP and think we are headed in the right direction. Some tweaks need to be done here and there, but overall I like it.
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Deva Blackfire
Viziam
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Posted - 2009.09.21 18:08:00 -
[254]
Originally by: Shadow's Caress
Supercapitals in general will be much more powerful than anything that can dock in a station. Is there a problem? With the coming changes it will be near impossible to build one and once you get into the pilot seat you won't be able to get out without a disturbance in the force occurring.
Lol please. And who will kill cap production arrays? You will? To kill it you still need to reinforce cyno jammer, jump in caps and reinforce pos and then in 1-3 days time reinforce jammer again and jump in caps again (or have them logged off in system - which usually doesnt happen).
Now lets take BKG (or wherever NC builds supercaps). You think their enemies, who sit 100+ jumps away will move all their cap fleet for 3 days just to nuke ONE cap production pos? Current 0.0 politics, even without sov4 protection favours supercap building and in reality there are no groups that can take out cap production pos. One pos. And there are tons of them all around eve. In north alone i guess it can be 30 arrays? So if one odd supercap gets aborted 20 more will still be delivered.
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Noskire
Caldari
Evolution
IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.21 18:43:00 -
[255]
Originally by: Shadow's Caress
<Interesting Stuff>
The main issue is, with these changes any alliance able to field multiple titans/supercarriers will be able to steamroll any alliance just fielding 'capitals'. Which kind of screws up the balance of the game, as you can ONLY build titans or supercarriers IF you already hold 0.0, or if you have support from an existing 0.0 alliance.
The main thing with Dominion is getting more people into 0.0, which is great. I miss CFS, XETIC and all those other 'carebear' alliances, which have kind of disappeared since moon mining became an important (and easy) source of income. Problem is, when XETIC rolled into 0.0 for the first time, they all came from empire. If this happens in Dominion (that is, rich industrial corps from empire form alliances and set out to stake their claim in the now-open areas of 0.0) they'll probably have capitals.. But no supercapitals! So if unfriendly-old-alliance-next-door dosen't want a neighbour, and would rather just have a large empty buffer zone around their dominion, all they have to do is roll out their supercapital fleet, and new alliance dosen't stand a chance.
It would of course be different without jumpdrives, jumpclones and all that, but as things looks today, it would be VERY easy for an old alliance to keep a large buffer zone around their empire, without much effort.
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Franconis
Gallente
Atropos.
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Posted - 2009.09.21 19:13:00 -
[256]
Originally by: Noskire
Originally by: Shadow's Caress
<Interesting Stuff>
The main issue is, with these changes any alliance able to field multiple titans/supercarriers will be able to steamroll any alliance just fielding 'capitals'. Which kind of screws up the balance of the game, as you can ONLY build titans or supercarriers IF you already hold 0.0, or if you have support from an existing 0.0 alliance.
The main thing with Dominion is getting more people into 0.0, which is great. I miss CFS, XETIC and all those other 'carebear' alliances, which have kind of disappeared since moon mining became an important (and easy) source of income. Problem is, when XETIC rolled into 0.0 for the first time, they all came from empire. If this happens in Dominion (that is, rich industrial corps from empire form alliances and set out to stake their claim in the now-open areas of 0.0) they'll probably have capitals.. But no supercapitals! So if unfriendly-old-alliance-next-door dosen't want a neighbour, and would rather just have a large empty buffer zone around their dominion, all they have to do is roll out their supercapital fleet, and new alliance dosen't stand a chance.
It would of course be different without jumpdrives, jumpclones and all that, but as things looks today, it would be VERY easy for an old alliance to keep a large buffer zone around their empire, without much effort.
QFT
This needs to be addressed. I'm all for super capitals being super, but giving large coalitions a monopoly on nullsec doesn't seem to fit with CCP's goals. I hate to say it, but the only solution I can see is the ability to build super capitals somewhat safely in a location other than nullsec. I'm just not sure which is worse: Mission runners solo building titans or another era of only a few major coalitions existing in 0.0 with no room for new alliances.
You are pure evil, and hate personified. |
McEivalley
Fallen Angel's
Blade.
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Posted - 2009.09.21 19:38:00 -
[257]
Edited by: McEivalley on 21/09/2009 19:43:37
I've been reading about a third of the thread (the first 2 pages and a bit of the 3rd), so I don't know if the following has been posted already, but here comes the wall-o-text. I have been very impressed so far with the community's ability to detect what also dumbstruck me as odd, with keeping an insta-death superweapon around. I hope CCP will take the whole idea into consideration again when it comes to the DDD's successor.
Being, so far, only on the receiving ends of titans, I can attest to the fact that AEO WTFPWN weapons are no fun for support fleets, BSs included. Not being the only one who died isn't much of a condolence either since there was nothing you could do about it. The only defense you have against infinitely superior weapons and tanks to yours is the ability to avoid the damage, either by leaving or keeping transversal speed to them.
Still, one day I found myself about 220km off a 30 man dread fleet in siege, in my zealot, and guess what - they were still able to hit me. If not for the buffer I had on it, if not for the alignment time and my transversal speed I would have lost the ship. I was very low in armor, 20 seconds after they called me primary and I warped out.
The proposed titan buff will mock this effort for survival by HACs and similar sized ships or bigger. If you have nothing to do about your survival, not even a slim chance to rectify the mistake of being around overwhelming odds, is NO FUN.
Which brings me to the question: What about HICs? If a titan can hit a zealot with or without an MWD on and pop it with a slim percentage of his damage capacity, surely he should be able to do the same to a HIC. Especially shield tanking HICs with the increased sig-rad from LSEs and shield rigs penalties.
And since we all do expect several titans being deployed (not just one) you would probably need 3-4 times their number in HICs in order to keep even one of them around long enough for the alleged 100-man dread fleet to pop the titan (that is, including carrier and new-moms support RR, and not including sub-cap support calling the HICs primaries, which is what they probably should do anyway).
Some of the proposed fits here, for titans, are quite :meh: especially those devoid of officer smart-bombs. Dictor probes would still die to the smarties and HICs MWDing towards titans will become a trail of wrecks.
Something else that bothers me about the proposed change is how exactly smaller alliances, which can field between 10-30 regular capitals, with maybe one or two super-caps, who are irreplaceable in a war situation, can have a slim chance of surviving against the onslaught of one of the bigger sov holding alliances.
What has been said earlier about dominion's sov changes will have little to no effect on the current power-blocks due to this buff - probably the other way around - sings true to me. The way I see it, neither of these power-blocks will disappear unless it crumbles out of boredom or several other power-blocks unite to take it down (with the former being a more realistic scenario than the later when it comes to success and probability of happening rates).
With that in mind (humor me a sec here) I'd rather see titans become something similar to an aircraft carrier nowadays, and losing direct insta-popping capabilities.
I haven't refined that thought yet but inherent leadership skills and modules boosts, assisting drones/fighters/bombers to other ships without a range and/or bandwidth limit, have tremendous racial EWAR capabilities. E.g. Ragna TPing at 1000% and webbing an AOE, while an Avatar could TD an AOE and have a capital NOS/neut that neut a target immediately. The Erebus will have a HIC field surrounding its target and will damp everything in it. The Levi will have the Mom's old jammer, but with 100% success rate for jammming.
The bottom line is that all of the features a titan should have can only be utilized with some support around it to capitalize on them.
Insert clever remark where? |
Butter Dog
Gallente
The Littlest Hobos
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.09.21 19:44:00 -
[258]
Originally by: CONVlCTED
Originally by: CCP Abathur
...
Quote:
These changes will simply make small entities in 0.0 obsolete. You'll never ever see a small capital ship engagement again. Imagine the effect even a single Titan would have on a 20v20 capital ship battle. The changes have 'power block' and 'super alliance' written all over it.
What's your thoughts on this then Abathur? I thought one of the big goals of Dominion was to make changes that make it possible for some smaller entities to have a go at 0.0 space. A single titan will be a big enough deterrent to scare these off.
Also what's your thought on the titan numbers we currently have and how it will develop. There will be more and more of these ships. Having one alliance field a dozen titans at one time isn't far off.
The point about smaller gangs / entities etc is that if alliances need to use their space to make ISK (instead of just moons), then smaller roaming gangs and persistant raiders really can have an affect on an alliances income. Their actions will matter in a way which isn't possible at the moment.
At no stage have CCP ever said that small roaming gangs are going to able to take sov, or claim space on their own. Ultimately in an MMO numbers will play a part - you can't mitigate against that in a non game breaking way, but you can make changes which mean that small numbers of people can affect big/lazy alliances in quite a sigificant way.
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AKA 'Bitter Dog'
Failing at everything he does in EvE since '05 |
Grut
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.09.21 20:06:00 -
[259]
Edited by: Grut on 21/09/2009 20:06:35
Originally by: Butter Dog
Originally by: CONVlCTED
Originally by: CCP Abathur
...
Quote:
These changes will simply make small entities in 0.0 obsolete. You'll never ever see a small capital ship engagement again. Imagine the effect even a single Titan would have on a 20v20 capital ship battle. The changes have 'power block' and 'super alliance' written all over it.
What's your thoughts on this then Abathur? I thought one of the big goals of Dominion was to make changes that make it possible for some smaller entities to have a go at 0.0 space. A single titan will be a big enough deterrent to scare these off.
Also what's your thought on the titan numbers we currently have and how it will develop. There will be more and more of these ships. Having one alliance field a dozen titans at one time isn't far off.
The point about smaller gangs / entities etc is that if alliances need to use their space to make ISK (instead of just moons), then smaller roaming gangs and persistant raiders really can have an affect on an alliances income. Their actions will matter in a way which isn't possible at the moment.
At no stage have CCP ever said that small roaming gangs are going to able to take sov, or claim space on their own. Ultimately in an MMO numbers will play a part - you can't mitigate against that in a non game breaking way, but you can make changes which mean that small numbers of people can affect big/lazy alliances in quite a sigificant way.
These titan changes even effect small gang warfare....
If theres no threat of a 100 man blob dropping in a couple of titans are god mode.
Warp 200km from each other .... profit.
It makes it alot easier to defend space when 2 guys online can driveoff a 20+ man gang.
A couple of dreads can be taken down... titans no chance
Kinsy > deadman you
there?
Kinsy > are either of us in
pods, becase we dont know...
Mostly harmless
[ 2005.12.09 19:22:50 ] (notify) You have started trying to warp scramble the Dreadnought |
ChaosOne
Caldari
Lux Vitae
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.21 21:29:00 -
[260]
Originally by: Noskire
Originally by: Shadow's Caress
<Interesting Stuff>
The main issue is, with these changes any alliance able to field multiple titans/supercarriers will be able to steamroll any alliance just fielding 'capitals'. Which kind of screws up the balance of the game, as you can ONLY build titans or supercarriers IF you already hold 0.0, or if you have support from an existing 0.0 alliance.
The main thing with Dominion is getting more people into 0.0, which is great. I miss CFS, XETIC and all those other 'carebear' alliances, which have kind of disappeared since moon mining became an important (and easy) source of income. Problem is, when XETIC rolled into 0.0 for the first time, they all came from empire. If this happens in Dominion (that is, rich industrial corps from empire form alliances and set out to stake their claim in the now-open areas of 0.0) they'll probably have capitals.. But no supercapitals! So if unfriendly-old-alliance-next-door dosen't want a neighbour, and would rather just have a large empty buffer zone around their dominion, all they have to do is roll out their supercapital fleet, and new alliance dosen't stand a chance.
It would of course be different without jumpdrives, jumpclones and all that, but as things looks today, it would be VERY easy for an old alliance to keep a large buffer zone around their empire, without much effort.
This is'nt a supercap problem, you honestly belive that if an older larger alliance takes a dislike to some new pubbie 0.0 alliance its going make any difference whether there are supercaps or not.
Taking the SCaps's out of the equasion means that they would still be fighting 100's dreads and carriers, and 200+ regular fleet (minus 10 or so super caps). They will die either way. So, i think that the whole idea of people moaning about the un-balanced titans due to others being able to field more is not of concern here. Perhaps some pubbies would like instanced fights where only 10 v 10 can enter so there 100 man alliance can compete with a 3k alliance. If so, goto wow..
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LoveKebab
Caldari
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.09.21 21:32:00 -
[261]
and for the love of God - decrese their scan resolution by at least 250-300%
xVid4PSP MKV Encoding Tutorial |
RoCkEt X
Caldari
Hostile.
|
Posted - 2009.09.21 21:33:00 -
[262]
people here should realise that the reason there is no shield HP implant set is because passive tanks would be incredibly overpowered.
however, you're flying a titan, which will be an active boosted setup. shield recharge is pretty much irrelavent.
@ navigator - my sig is 400x120 exactly, i know this because i made it myself. so stop nuking it plz.
-RX |
Yaay
Game-Over
|
Posted - 2009.09.21 21:45:00 -
[263]
Edited by: Yaay on 21/09/2009 21:53:30
Edited by: Yaay on 21/09/2009 21:47:13
Originally by: CCP Abathur
XL Turret damage: May go down, very doubtful it will go up.
DD Damage: The intention is for the weapon to kill capital ships, which it seems to do fine unless a pilot specifically tanks for the damage expected. At this time we're satisfied with the current damage and see no need to change it up or down but we're still weeks away from Dominion. Keep on shooting and talking.
DD Fuel usage: There is a reason you can carry about 40-60 minutes worth of fuel for the weapon - that's roughly the same amount of siege / triage fuel most capital ships are capable of carrying into a fight.
DD Rate of Fire: If we do anything we may increase it, but calling for it to be less than it is now is kinda
The main issue here is that nobody, capital or otherwise want's to be 1 volleyed by 1 ship. You can change the ROF all you want on the DD, it will not change the fact that individual players will not risk 2 bil+ assets that can die in the blink of an eye to 1 ship.
The difference between the DD and 100 v 100 cap fights is the choice. Big alliances, or large coalitions knowingly choose to go into large cap fights where dreads die quickly. Small groups expect that if they're going to deploy 20 dreads, odds are they're not going to face more than 20 dreads. That leads to longer, more enjoyable cap fights for the individuals involved.
If the DD stays, there is no way for a small group to even risk 20 dreads, because 2 titans can go in and wipe them out. Not only that, but whoever is primaried is out of the fight faster than Agmar loses supercaps.
There is no ROF change that can affect that people don't like to die in an instant. The dev team has tried to increase the duration of fights, So why add a 1 shot option that counters that philosophy for individuals... it's not fun?
Everyone is very happy with the turrets and their damage, but you want to nerf that? The only change they need is tracking at about a 70% reduction.
Very few are happy with the Doomsday, but tough luck guys, maybe we'll just reduce the ROF, even though it's the effect that people hate.
There is no happy ground between an effective DD with direct damage that's something that's not totally overpowered or not worth the choice. Get with the program, make DD's a secondary effect.
As for trying to tank DD, who honestly is going to change dread setups on the off chance that they choose the right tank resist that will only end them in structure, rather that dead?
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
LoveKebab
Caldari
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.09.21 21:49:00 -
[264]
Originally by: Yaay
Originally by: CCP Abathur
XL Turret damage: May go down, very doubtful it will go up.
DD Damage: The intention is for the weapon to kill capital ships, which it seems to do fine unless a pilot specifically tanks for the damage expected. At this time we're satisfied with the current damage and see no need to change it up or down but we're still weeks away from Dominion. Keep on shooting and talking.
DD Fuel usage: There is a reason you can carry about 40-60 minutes worth of fuel for the weapon - that's roughly the same amount of siege / triage fuel most capital ships are capable of carrying into a fight.
DD Rate of Fire: If we do anything we may increase it, but calling for it to be less than it is now is kinda
The main issue here is that nobody, capital or otherwise want's to be 1 volleyed by 1 ship. You can change the ROF all you want on the DD, it will not change the fact that individual players will not risk 2 bil+ assets that can die in the blink of an eye to 1 ship.
The difference between the DD and 100 v 100 cap fights is the choice. Big alliances, or large coalitions knowingly choose to go into large cap fights. Small groups expect that if they're going to deploy 20 dreads, odds are they're not going to face more than 20 dreads. That leads to longer, more enjoyable cap fights.
If the DD stays, there is no way for a small group to even risk 20 dreads, because 2 titans can go in and wipe them out. Not only that, but whoever is primaried is out of the fight faster than Agmar loses supercaps.
There is no ROF change that can affect that people don't like to die in an instant. The dev team has tried to increase the duration of fights, So why add a 1 shot option that counters that philosophy?
Everyone is very happy with the turrets and their damage, but you want to nerf that?
Very few are happy with the Doomsday, but tough luck guys, maybe we'll just reduce the ROF, even though it's the effect that people hate.
There is no happy ground between an effective DD with direct damage that's something that's not totally overpowered or not worth the choice. Get with the program, make DD's a secondary effect.
QFT - among 300.000 ppl there is like 400-500 tops that are happy about titan changes, and im pretty sure each of them have a titan ..
xVid4PSP MKV Encoding Tutorial |
ChaosOne
Caldari
Lux Vitae
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.09.21 21:57:00 -
[265]
Originally by: Yaay
Originally by: CCP Abathur
XL Turret damage: May go down, very doubtful it will go up.
DD Damage: The intention is for the weapon to kill capital ships, which it seems to do fine unless a pilot specifically tanks for the damage expected. At this time we're satisfied with the current damage and see no need to change it up or down but we're still weeks away from Dominion. Keep on shooting and talking.
DD Fuel usage: There is a reason you can carry about 40-60 minutes worth of fuel for the weapon - that's roughly the same amount of siege / triage fuel most capital ships are capable of carrying into a fight.
DD Rate of Fire: If we do anything we may increase it, but calling for it to be less than it is now is kinda
The main issue here is that nobody, capital or otherwise want's to be 1 volleyed by 1 ship. You can change the ROF all you want on the DD, it will not change the fact that individual players will not risk 2 bil+ assets that can die in the blink of an eye to 1 ship.
The difference between the DD and 100 v 100 cap fights is the choice. Big alliances, or large coalitions knowingly choose to go into large cap fights. Small groups expect that if they're going to deploy 20 dreads, odds are they're not going to face more than 20 dreads. That leads to longer, more enjoyable cap fights.
If the DD stays, there is no way for a small group to even risk 20 dreads, because 2 titans can go in and wipe them out. Not only that, but whoever is primaried is out of the fight faster than Agmar loses supercaps.
There is no ROF change that can affect that people don't like to die in an instant. The dev team has tried to increase the duration of fights, So why add a 1 shot option that counters that philosophy?
Everyone is very happy with the turrets and their damage, but you want to nerf that?
Very few are happy with the Doomsday, but tough luck guys, maybe we'll just reduce the ROF, even though it's the effect that people hate.
There is no happy ground between an effective DD with direct damage that's something that's not totally overpowered or not worth the choice. Get with the program, make DD's a secondary effect.
Have you been in a large cap fight where caps are being one-shot all over the field??
Your argument is falling back onto the small group Philosophy which has nothing to do with the balancing of these ships. They are not going to be able to compete with larger alliance's which can field 100's of each type of ships S'caps would have only a marginal impact.
I, however persoanly like the area of effect weapons.
perhaps something more along the line of a Cap neutralizer or even several minute grid warp jammer?? The possibilitys are endless without have a complete fleet destroyer which was the main problem.
Another possibility could of been only letting the DD destroy shield and armor leaving the ship with Hull...
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Fire Hawk
Destructive Influence
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Posted - 2009.09.21 22:00:00 -
[266]
Edited by: Fire Hawk on 21/09/2009 22:00:56
Firts of all Yaay stop crying jesus christ you can be annoying...
Second i have now had the chance to test all 4 titans:
Capital killer: finally its gone be interesting to use titans, no more waiting in POS for hours, the DD is fine with the current rate of fire however you need to fix the warping bug, the one where you can fire everytime you drop out of warp. The damages of the turrets are also fine considering the price of the ship compare the dreads and carriers.
Tank: fibe also, we will still die often enough, while also giving the fight enough time to excalade (which is the fun part of eve) should a lone titan be tackled. In big fights we will die like anyother ship just gone take a little longer.
Tracking: we need to be able to hit BS, ppl crying cause we can volley them ( we use to be able to clean them out of the grid), as far smaller ship we need to be able to kill them also if they arent moving.
Implants: leave the slave like they are and make crystal set work on titans
Fitting: I beg you CCP you need to boost the CPU of the levathian and the ragnarock its not normal that we struggle to fit shield tanking titans when it so easy to fit armor ones.
Ragnarok: Its the titan that tanks the worse and has the worse Bonuss, if you aint gone do something with the tank at least please have look at the bonus has it is useless ( maybe shield resist bonuss or something)
Yaay, stop *****ing about the changes you just wanne ban titans from the game all together and this isnt the topic here
___
Fear the french touch.
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Noskire
Caldari
Evolution
IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.21 22:10:00 -
[267]
Edited by: Noskire on 21/09/2009 22:15:28
Edited by: Noskire on 21/09/2009 22:13:55
Originally by: ChaosOne
Originally by: Noskire
Originally by: Shadow's Caress
<Interesting Stuff>
The main issue is, with these changes any alliance able to field multiple titans/supercarriers will be able to steamroll any alliance just fielding 'capitals'. Which kind of screws up the balance of the game, as you can ONLY build titans or supercarriers IF you already hold 0.0, or if you have support from an existing 0.0 alliance.
The main thing with Dominion is getting more people into 0.0, which is great. I miss CFS, XETIC and all those other 'carebear' alliances, which have kind of disappeared since moon mining became an important (and easy) source of income. Problem is, when XETIC rolled into 0.0 for the first time, they all came from empire. If this happens in Dominion (that is, rich industrial corps from empire form alliances and set out to stake their claim in the now-open areas of 0.0) they'll probably have capitals.. But no supercapitals! So if unfriendly-old-alliance-next-door dosen't want a neighbour, and would rather just have a large empty buffer zone around their dominion, all they have to do is roll out their supercapital fleet, and new alliance dosen't stand a chance.
It would of course be different without jumpdrives, jumpclones and all that, but as things looks today, it would be VERY easy for an old alliance to keep a large buffer zone around their empire, without much effort.
This is'nt a supercap problem, you honestly belive that if an older larger alliance takes a dislike to some new pubbie 0.0 alliance its going make any difference whether there are supercaps or not.
Taking the SCaps's out of the equasion means that they would still be fighting 100's dreads and carriers, and 200+ regular fleet (minus 10 or so super caps). They will die either way. So, i think that the whole idea of people moaning about the un-balanced titans due to others being able to field more is not of concern here. Perhaps some pubbies would like instanced fights where only 10 v 10 can enter so there 100 man alliance can compete with a 3k alliance. If so, goto wow..
The issue was not that they'd die, it was how they would die. For a major alliance with 2000+ members, getting 10 people online is not an effort at all. Just saying that giving those 10 people deathrays is gonna have a major effect when they engage an alliance able to field 50 capitals at most. Because i'm guessing thats where they'll see most use. Not in huge 300vs300 fleet battles where the hostiles has as many titans as you've got, but in battles where you can jump em in on the enemy and just drop the pain, without any risk - just like their use today.
McEivalley had a rather brilliant idea turning them into giant support ships, so that you'll actually need more ships than just titans on a battlefield to win. Or, if CCP is set on turn them into win-machines, the least they can do is make em consume fuel ALL the time, so that it is expensive to both build and maintain one - which is how it SHOULD be. No offence to Chribba or anyone, but these are huge machines of war, built for interstellar conflict between empires, not 1-man mining in lo-sec, of course they should have a upkeep cost reflecting that!
Edited to fix spelling.
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Yaay
Game-Over
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Posted - 2009.09.21 22:15:00 -
[268]
Edited by: Yaay on 21/09/2009 22:17:30
Edited by: Yaay on 21/09/2009 22:16:52
Originally by: Fire Hawk
...
Dear Fire,
Thank you for directing all your rage at me and not the other 400 post that agree with me and that I agree with. Thank you for not reading my last post or any other post. Thank you for looking like a dumb **** titan pilot which I believe 1 post up addressed... and it wasn't even mine.
To the goon guy. I specifically argued that if you jump into a 100 v 100 cap fight, you expect to be killed fast if you get primaried. In smaller engagements, not so. Titan changes are making every fight has potential 1 shot deaths.
And yeah, I think I've had my fair share of large scale warfare.
Seriously, quit being whiny ***s just because you wasted 100's of billions on a 4 titans and fitting for yourself and want to have an "I win" because of it.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
wallenbergaren
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Posted - 2009.09.21 22:21:00 -
[269]
I don't think this new DD is any worse than current cap vs cap mechanis
That's, of course, not saying much at all, but the rage is maybe a bit misplaced
Being instapoped by a Titan or being called primary by a Dread fleet when you're in siege? Not much of a difference. If you're at the end of a cycle you might survive but you probably won't. Cap fights already suck. This new DD won't make it worse IMO
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ChaosOne
Caldari
Lux Vitae
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.21 22:22:00 -
[270]
Originally by: Noskire
Edited by: Noskire on 21/09/2009 22:13:55
Originally by: ChaosOne
Originally by: Noskire
Originally by: Shadow's Caress
<Interesting Stuff>
The main issue is, with these changes any alliance able to field multiple titans/supercarriers will be able to steamroll any alliance just fielding 'capitals'. Which kind of screws up the balance of the game, as you can ONLY build titans or supercarriers IF you already hold 0.0, or if you have support from an existing 0.0 alliance.
The main thing with Dominion is getting more people into 0.0, which is great. I miss CFS, XETIC and all those other 'carebear' alliances, which have kind of disappeared since moon mining became an important (and easy) source of income. Problem is, when XETIC rolled into 0.0 for the first time, they all came from empire. If this happens in Dominion (that is, rich industrial corps from empire form alliances and set out to stake their claim in the now-open areas of 0.0) they'll probably have capitals.. But no supercapitals! So if unfriendly-old-alliance-next-door dosen't want a neighbour, and would rather just have a large empty buffer zone around their dominion, all they have to do is roll out their supercapital fleet, and new alliance dosen't stand a chance.
It would of course be different without jumpdrives, jumpclones and all that, but as things looks today, it would be VERY easy for an old alliance to keep a large buffer zone around their empire, without much effort.
This is'nt a supercap problem, you honestly belive that if an older larger alliance takes a dislike to some new pubbie 0.0 alliance its going make any difference whether there are supercaps or not.
Taking the SCaps's out of the equasion means that they would still be fighting 100's dreads and carriers, and 200+ regular fleet (minus 10 or so super caps). They will die either way. So, i think that the whole idea of people moaning about the un-balanced titans due to others being able to field more is not of concern here. Perhaps some pubbies would like instanced fights where only 10 v 10 can enter so there 100 man alliance can compete with a 3k alliance. If so, goto wow..
The issue was not that they'd die, it was how they would die. For a major alliance with 2000+ members, getting 10 people online is not an effort at all. Just saying that giving those 10 people deathrays is gonna have a major effect when they engage an alliance able to field 50 capitals at most. Because i'm guessing thats where they'll see most use. Not in huge 300vs300 fleet battles where the hostiles has as many titans as you've got, but in battles where you can jump em in on the enemy and just drop the pain, without any risk - just like their use today.
They would be getting 'pain' whether there were titans or not. Your argument is mute. If a small alliance is prepared to drop 50 caps against a 2k alliance as you put it, then expect them to die either way.
How about discussing the balancing of the ship instead of how larger alliance's have a advantage over smaller.
As posted a couple replies b4, fleet battles tend to escalate with more ships being brought to the field, its a rare day that every thing is thrown in at the onset. Of course titans wont be thrown into the first wave of a massive fight until a strategic advantage is seen to be gained.
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