Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Kittamaru
Gallente Democracy of Klingon Brothers Wicked Nation
|
Posted - 2009.09.11 13:47:00 -
[1]
I was just reading about how the only counter to a dread is another dread... seems kinda silly, but that's how it is atm - the only counter to capital ship fleets are, well, your own fleets of capital ships.
Not good tbh.
I think it's time for a new ship:
The Heavy Stealth Bomber (or maybe the Heavy Bomber?)
Gallente Battlecruiser Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Citadel Torpedo explosion velocity and flight time per level 20% bonus to Citadel Torpedo velocity per level
Covert Ops Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to citadel torpedo range per level 15% bonus to Citadel torpedo thermal damage per level
Role Bonus: -99.99% reduction in Citadel Torpedo Launcher powergrid needs -99.5% reduction in Cloak CPU Use -100% targeting delay after decloaking
CPU: 450 TF PG: 1500 MW High Slots: 5 Mid Slots: 3 Low Slots: 5 Turret Slots: 0 Missile Slots: 3
Shield Capacity: 1,750 hp Armor Capacity: 3,350 hp Hull HP: 2,150 hp Cap Capacity: 2,750 points Cap Recharge: 500,000 ms
Max Velocity: 150 m/s Warp Speed: 3 au/s Mass: 10,250,000 m3 Drone Space: 0 Cargo Bay: 500 m3
Scan Resolution: 250mm Signature Radius: 250mm Magnometric Strength: 22 points Max Targeting Range: 80,000 meters Targeting Speed: 5,000 ms
Pretty much paper thin, but able to hit hard against anything capital sized or higher. I'm THINKING however, that the cloak is too much... but what would take it's place?
Reduction to Sig Radius per level Increase to Armor Resists per level (and make it a little harder to pop)
Ideas/Questions?
|
Bentakhar
|
Posted - 2009.09.11 14:05:00 -
[2]
I like the idea... its pretty much the same idea as the siege BS i posted on the forum. A non capital ship capable of BIG volley dmg to take out capitals. Check it out. I also hesitated to put XL weapons on BC hulls... but i chose BS instead. Its probably a good idea to use BCs as there are very few BCs ingame and i have the BC skill to lvl5^^
I wouldnt stick to torps as having the same ship for 4 races is a bit boring.. the amarr one would have a laser, minmatar artilleries etc..
|
Haxfar Portlaind
|
Posted - 2009.09.11 14:30:00 -
[3]
lol, please don't use citadel like that. Remember the description? The launcher is the size of frigs . I would rather give it dmg bonus, maybe marauder style?
|
Kittamaru
Gallente Democracy of Klingon Brothers Wicked Nation
|
Posted - 2009.09.11 15:41:00 -
[4]
The reason I'm going with Citadel Launchers compared to uprated Torps or the like is because I don't WANT it to be able to attack anything smaller than a dread with any degree of success. It's an anti-capital ship, not an anti-battleship weapon :)
As for the reason for Missiles and nothing else - it's a Torpedo Bomber :D There ya go! That and mounting the Dreadnaught sized turrets would look... silly... to say the least :)
|
Haxfar Portlaind
|
Posted - 2009.09.11 17:01:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Kittamaru The reason I'm going with Citadel Launchers compared to uprated Torps or the like is because I don't WANT it to be able to attack anything smaller than a dread with any degree of success. It's an anti-capital ship, not an anti-battleship weapon :)
As for the reason for Missiles and nothing else - it's a Torpedo Bomber :D There ya go! That and mounting the Dreadnaught sized turrets would look... silly... to say the least :)
Good word again
|
Kittamaru
Gallente Democracy of Klingon Brothers Wicked Nation
|
Posted - 2009.09.11 17:14:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Haxfar Portlaind
Originally by: Kittamaru The reason I'm going with Citadel Launchers compared to uprated Torps or the like is because I don't WANT it to be able to attack anything smaller than a dread with any degree of success. It's an anti-capital ship, not an anti-battleship weapon :)
As for the reason for Missiles and nothing else - it's a Torpedo Bomber :D There ya go! That and mounting the Dreadnaught sized turrets would look... silly... to say the least :)
Good word again
Not sure what you mean by Good Word Again
|
Cors
It's A Trap
|
Posted - 2009.09.11 20:00:00 -
[7]
The easy solution is to just up the explosion radius of the Torpedo's till they're 1000m or more. That way they'd do 1/3rd damage to BS's, and even less to smaller ships, but full damage to caps. Or make the explosion velocity very low, so any ship moveing 50m/s or high avoids most of the damage.
|
Kittamaru
Gallente Democracy of Klingon Brothers Wicked Nation
|
Posted - 2009.09.11 20:10:00 -
[8]
that could work, but the thing is SB's already use Torps. I was looking at using the next weapon system up - if having Citadels on BC's is out of proportion, what about on the T3 Battleship hulls? Have them be the hull design for em?
|
Saul Elsyn
INTERSTELLAR ENTERPRISE
|
Posted - 2009.09.12 04:27:00 -
[9]
Actually I really like the idea of a fast moving Cruiser sized Capital ship hunter... I'd actually suggest decreasing the size from Battlecruiser to Cruiser. I mean, if we can miniaturize a battleship torpedo tube to the point a frigate hull can carry three of them then miniaturizing a siege torpedo tube so a cruiser can carry 2-3 wouldn't be that far out of reach.
I'm suddenly engulfed with a vision of a Caracal with a pair of huge torpedo launchers hanging beneath it's wings. It MWD in on a capital ship launches its citadel torpedoes and runs like hell as the escort ships try to blow it out of the sky.
A speed and explosion velocity is probably the wrong bonus for this sort of ship. What we want is volley damage, buffer tank, and speed. So perhaps a 5% bonus to Citadel Torpedo damage per level would be more appropriate. 5% bonus to max velocity per level. 5% bonus to resists per level. 5% reduction in Microwarpdrive capacitor use per level.
|
Grut
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2009.09.12 10:43:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Grut on 12/09/2009 10:43:59 Its a cool idea. You could ditch the launcher models and just have the torps "plopping out" like everything else.
One problem is cost/dps a t2 cruiser is going to be over 100 mil, a t2 BC 250mil.
A phoenix with 3 launchers, 2xdamage bonus and 5x bcu2 does 500 dps with a 10k volley before seige. Base + max skills cap launcher DPS is 67!
Given that bombs do 8k noone in their right mind is going to pay over a 100mil for something that can't outdamage an unsieged dread... you'd be better off getting a standard HAC, you'd do asmuch if not more damage and still be able to hit small stuff.
Volley damage is all very well but caps have over 2mil hp, you'd need ALOT of damage / salvo to make it worthwhile. Don't forget that cap weapons take alot of skill training aswell.
Say you used a cerb as a base. Give it 3 HS 2 Launcher slots, you'd need something like;
Role: 99.8% reduction in grid needs for cap launchers - brings them down to 180 grid.
Cruiser
+25% resists -5% mwd cap penalty
T2
+20% damage / level -15% ROF / level
That'd give 1080 dps before damage mods so ~ 2k max gank.
Sounds like a lot, but dreads do well over the 4k mark and their dps/hp favours hp.
Kinsy > deadman you there? Kinsy > are either of us in pods, becase we dont know...
Mostly harmless [ 2005.12.09 19:22:50 ] (notify) You have started trying to warp scramble the Dreadnought |
|
Nekmet Awai
|
Posted - 2009.09.12 11:07:00 -
[11]
the idea is good but the dmg calculation need some tweaking since as you posted it now with max skills your at a dps of around 350-400 which isn't more then the normal stealth bomber. (and a burst dmg of around the same as a sb).
i like the idea but would give it a 200% roles bonus to citadel dmg and -75% rof (should give the same dps but with a volley dmg 3 times higher then the SB).
the shield, armour, hull hp is to high, it shouldn't be more then half if you want it as a "stealth" ship, else make a HBS (heavy battle ship) with the capabillity of laying a hell of dmg on stationary targets and taking around 1300-1500 dps itself while moving.
|
Fille Balle
Ballbreakers R us
|
Posted - 2009.09.12 11:22:00 -
[12]
Wow, this sounds pretty awesome to me. Only real problem I can see is that it's role might conflict with dreads. Trust me, people WILL use this ship to siege pos'es. But that being said, I don't really see this as an issue, as having ONE ship for pos bashing is a bit meh.
On a positive note, this could help create a totally new tactic: covert pos takedown! Which would be totally awesome.
And I also agree with poster above: NEEDS MOAR DPS! With 400 dps, you needs a crapton of these things in order to take down one single dread (load up eft and put a tank on a dread, you'll see what I mean).
|
jemos
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.09.12 12:36:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Fille Balle Wow, this sounds pretty awesome to me. Only real problem I can see is that it's role might conflict with dreads. Trust me, people WILL use this ship to siege pos'es. But that being said, I don't really see this as an issue, as having ONE ship for pos bashing is a bit meh.
On a positive note, this could help create a totally new tactic: covert pos takedown! Which would be totally awesome.
And I also agree with poster above: NEEDS MOAR DPS! With 400 dps, you needs a crapton of these things in order to take down one single dread (load up eft and put a tank on a dread, you'll see what I mean).
I don't think they would conflict to much with dreads. If you for some reason attack a pos with a cruiser, is it manned. You will be dead fast actually ^^ The dread is all about survival.
I do know that there have been some POS takedowns with SB's! Would be kinda awsome to actually do that. What I've heard (I never been present on a POS takedown with bs fleets) a blob of bs's need a ****load of time to take a pos down!
If the `heavy bomber¦ should be able to take down a Captial I think need to have similar dps to dreads, but with stupidly slow ROF. I can actually think of a +100% ROF to these ships. And about the hulls, they should be cruisers, not BC's since these ships are "super" glass cannons. And should really only be usuable in nullsec. (Just had a fun picthure of a pair of BC `Heavy bombers¦ganking a por freighter )
Originally by: FireT
If you have capitals..... well for the love of Raptor Pope, use them before they rust away.
|
Kittamaru
Gallente Democracy of Klingon Brothers Wicked Nation
|
Posted - 2009.09.12 12:40:00 -
[14]
Well, that's why I was going for the Heavy Bomber idea :) Not so much a glass cannon, but mega cannons. And true, we need to find a way to stop them being used to gank freighters.
I like the idea of them being able to tank decently, and I wonder - should they be limited to SIZE of the ship they can hit, or SPEED of the ship they can hit? I want this to be anti-capital, but not freighter-suicide-gank material... hmm...
|
jemos
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.09.12 13:01:00 -
[15]
Edited by: jemos on 12/09/2009 13:01:46
Originally by: Kittamaru Well, that's why I was going for the Heavy Bomber idea :) Not so much a glass cannon, but mega cannons. And true, we need to find a way to stop them being used to gank freighters.
I like the idea of them being able to tank decently, and I wonder - should they be limited to SIZE of the ship they can hit, or SPEED of the ship they can hit? I want this to be anti-capital, but not freighter-suicide-gank material... hmm...
Well, reducing them to glass cannons would probably help quite alot against freighter-roam-gank-bombers.
"Heavy bomber ships were put into research to counter the ever so steadily growing tide of capital sieges that also could threaten the main factions of New Eden. The result was a stable anti capital Battle cruiser platform that sacrificed electronics to house and handle the huge Citiadel torpedo launchers."
`Heavy bomber¦Brutix hull.
Reduce sensor resolution to match it with the align time. Increased Mass 75% Max speed 100m/s
5 highslots 3 Turret hardpoints 2 utillity. 2 Medium slots. 7 Lowslots
T1 bonus: 7.5% to all armor repair systems. 5% to armor ammount? (Discussable just got this to support the gallente way) t2 Bonus: +x damage to racial torpedos. +5-10% to citadel torpedo velocity?
Role: - 99.5% cpu for cov op cloaks. - needed ammount of PG to fit citiadel launchers.
This will give a slow but durable ship that will survive the alignment and being able to pretty much only target and volley at capital ships. The slot layout is pretty much to fit an MWD and SEBO. + some tank/gank.
Shield tanking ships will have something like
5 High 6 medium 3 Low
Thoughts. 4 tank 3 gank.
Originally by: FireT
If you have capitals..... well for the love of Raptor Pope, use them before they rust away.
|
Andra McKay
GSZ Magnum Opus.
|
Posted - 2009.09.12 15:59:00 -
[16]
I like this idea. If it's implemented with a clear focus on it's role, it will be a fun boat to fly. Keep the citadel torps in the concept to keep it only useful against capitals. I'm playing with the thought if this should have the ability to fit bomb launchers, 2 of them, but I'm not sure yet.
|
Mike C
Caldari Ipuvaepe Industries
|
Posted - 2009.09.12 16:18:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Mike C on 12/09/2009 16:25:48
Originally by: Kittamaru I was just reading about how the only counter to a dread is another dread... seems kinda silly, but that's how it is atm - the only counter to capital ship fleets are, well, your own fleets of capital ships.
Not good tbh.
I think it's time for a new ship:
The Heavy Stealth Bomber (or maybe the Heavy Bomber?)
Gallente Battlecruiser Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Citadel Torpedo explosion velocity and flight time per level 20% bonus to Citadel Torpedo velocity per level
Covert Ops Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to citadel torpedo range per level 15% bonus to Citadel torpedo thermal damage per level
Role Bonus: -99.99% reduction in Citadel Torpedo Launcher powergrid needs -99.5% reduction in Cloak CPU Use -100% targeting delay after decloaking
CPU: 450 TF PG: 1500 MW High Slots: 5 Mid Slots: 3 Low Slots: 5 Turret Slots: 0 Missile Slots: 3
Shield Capacity: 1,750 hp Armor Capacity: 3,350 hp Hull HP: 2,150 hp Cap Capacity: 2,750 points Cap Recharge: 500,000 ms
Max Velocity: 150 m/s Warp Speed: 3 au/s Mass: 10,250,000 m3 Drone Space: 0 Cargo Bay: 500 m3
Scan Resolution: 250mm Signature Radius: 250mm Magnometric Strength: 22 points Max Targeting Range: 80,000 meters Targeting Speed: 5,000 ms
Pretty much paper thin, but able to hit hard against anything capital sized or higher. I'm THINKING however, that the cloak is too much... but what would take it's place?
Reduction to Sig Radius per level Increase to Armor Resists per level (and make it a little harder to pop)
Ideas/Questions?
OP is trying to fix a problem that does not exist. 5 or 6 BS (epically RR BS) can kill a dreadnought. A moros may kill one or two in the process, but its a ****ing dreadnought. Dreads are capital killers, T2 frigates/cruisers are NOT.
EDIT 1/3: Bring neuts tho EDIT 2/3: Even battlecruiser sized is ridiculous. This would have to be something capital-sized itself which a dread is actually capable of killing (but having to enter siege). This would also have to be more skill-intensive then a dreadnought, cap weapons, jump skills to 5, siege mod, and drones time-wise. Maybe require racial dread to 3 and require the ship to be in siege to do any realistic amount of damage (10% modifier to damage, but 10x modifier to damage effectiveness of siege mod?) Tracking would also have to be next to nothing. This ship should also not be jump-capable. After all of this what do you have? a ****ING STARGATE DREADNOUGHT! EDIT 3/3: Also **** cloaking. __________________________________________________
Originally by: Mike C Trolls - We keep Humanity alive... and kicking...
|
Saul Elsyn
INTERSTELLAR ENTERPRISE
|
Posted - 2009.09.12 16:18:00 -
[18]
I really dislike the idea of this being a tankable ship, actually I really dislike the idea of making it based off a Battlecruiser. I'd think of this as a swarm ship with a combat doctrine akin to a torpedo boat. They swoop in, blast the target and swoop out. If you're going to make a vessel that's meant as a hunter a tankable vessel its going to be used as a mission-runner or fleet lineship.
Not a hunter.
You're right about the volley damage, we're talking about taking down a ship with several million hitpoints with alpha. That doesn't seem very reasonable in retro-spec. So lets go with DPS. Without role specific bonuses or a siege module 3x Citadel Torpedo Launchers with 3x BCS IIs do about 446 DPS. That's nowhere near sufficient.
So it'd need a Role Bonus of around 625% to Citadel Torpedo Damage to match the siege output. But you're still talking 10 volleys at the very least to get through the tank of Dreadnaught. Not to mention 625% damage bonus just sounds outright ridiculous.
To achieve a sufficient damage output to put a capital ship to bed maybe a better idea would be massive bonus to rate of fire and a comparable penalty to missile range.
A citadel torpedo travels 154 km before detonating on a Dreadnaught with max skills. For a hunter killer, especially one designed to be a fast hit and run type ship that's excessive.
So... Theoretical Caldari Torpedo Boat...
Berkut-class Torpedo Boat:
Caldari Cruiser Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Kinetic Missile Damage and 5% bonus to missile velocity per level.
Torpedo Boat Skill Bonus: 5% to Shield Resistance and 10% reduction in Microwarp Drive activation cost.
Role Bonus: 75% reduction to Citadel Torpedo - Rate of Fire. 50% penalty to Citadel Torpedo - Flight Time. 99.9 % reduction in Citadel Torpedo Powergrid use.
This set of bonuses produces a Cruiser with a 2672 DPS with max skills. Which for a cruiser is about 4x the norm. The use of Citadel Torpedoes makes it specifically useful against capital ships and little else. It's quite a bit of damage to packed into a cruiser hull. Not sure we could up the output much more before it starts to become a threat to battleships.
|
Kittamaru
Gallente Democracy of Klingon Brothers Wicked Nation
|
Posted - 2009.09.12 17:14:00 -
[19]
I'm going to re-work the intial post to reflect the discussion :) Re-read in about 5 minutes and see what you think
|
Grut
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2009.09.12 17:23:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Mike C
OP is trying to fix a problem that does not exist. 5 or 6 BS (epically RR BS) can kill a dreadnought. A moros may kill one or two in the process, but its a ****ing dreadnought. Dreads are capital killers, T2 frigates/cruisers are NOT.
EDIT 1/3: Bring neuts tho EDIT 2/3: Even battlecruiser sized is ridiculous. This would have to be something capital-sized itself which a dread is actually capable of killing (but having to enter siege). This would also have to be more skill-intensive then a dreadnought, cap weapons, jump skills to 5, siege mod, and drones time-wise. Maybe require racial dread to 3 and require the ship to be in siege to do any realistic amount of damage (1/10x modifier to damage, but 10x modifier to damage effectiveness of siege mod?) Tracking would also have to be next to nothing. This ship should also not be jump-capable. After all of this what do you have? a ****ING STARGATE DREADNOUGHT! EDIT 3/3: Also **** cloaking.
Bringing 5-6 more ships to take one is not a counter, eve works on numbers of people not straight isk efficiency alliances can already spam dreads to their hearts content. Also dreads work better the more you have but basically, what happens if your fighting 20 dreads? you need 120+ bs, alliances can field 200 odd bs so for your counter you'll need 1000+ bs to counter.......
EVE works on rock, paper, scissors. Currently Dreads are the rock, paper and scissors, the best fleet you can have would be 100% dreads no support. Breaking that up so bombers can kill dreads, dreads can't kill bombers, support can kill bombers isn't a bad thing.
Its not like their much of a threat with cruiser / bc hp.
Kinsy > deadman you there? Kinsy > are either of us in pods, becase we dont know...
Mostly harmless [ 2005.12.09 19:22:50 ] (notify) You have started trying to warp scramble the Dreadnought |
|
Kittamaru
Gallente Democracy of Klingon Brothers Wicked Nation
|
Posted - 2009.09.12 17:34:00 -
[21]
Well, I'm against the Cruiser HP (mostly so they can survive long enough for their torpedoes to hit home unless the support fleet is on their toes), but they have NO way to even hit anything smaller than a dreadnaught, and even if they did, the missile would do such low damage it wouldn't matter :)
|
Kittamaru
Gallente Democracy of Klingon Brothers Wicked Nation
|
Posted - 2009.09.12 21:20:00 -
[22]
I updated the topic title to reflect the changes from a stealth bomber to a Heavy Torpedo Bomber :)
|
Kittamaru
Gallente Democracy of Klingon Brothers Wicked Nation
|
Posted - 2009.09.14 16:46:00 -
[23]
Anyone else have anything to add to this?
I think it's in a good iteraton atm - it brings back the Rock Paper Scissors of fleet warfare... right now, he who fields the most dreads likely will win, regardless of supporting fleet.
Adding this in makes the support fleet important again:
Torpedo Bombers best Dreads Dreads best Supportin Fleets (because anything other than crazy large battleship fleets can't do squat) Supporting Fleets best Torpedo Bombers
This adds a nice balance to the mix, making Frigates, Destroyers, Cruisers, and Battle Cruisers (and their T2 cousins) important again - Battleships, Dreads, and so on won't be able to lock these fast enough to kill them, yet smaller ships can (and can easily kill them)
|
AtheistOfDoom
The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction
|
Posted - 2009.09.14 16:54:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Kittamaru Anyone else have anything to add to this?
I think it's in a good iteraton atm - it brings back the Rock Paper Scissors of fleet warfare... right now, he who fields the most dreads likely will win, regardless of supporting fleet.
Unless it's made up completely of Moros I highly doubt it. A decent (20-50) man rr bs/hic fleet can pretty easily pwn an unsupported dread fleet. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
Thaliya Dejar
Dark Rising Shadow Ev0ke
|
Posted - 2009.09.14 17:06:00 -
[25]
i like the idea.
|
Kittamaru
Gallente Democracy of Klingon Brothers Wicked Nation
|
Posted - 2009.09.14 17:22:00 -
[26]
Originally by: AtheistOfDoom
Originally by: Kittamaru Anyone else have anything to add to this?
I think it's in a good iteraton atm - it brings back the Rock Paper Scissors of fleet warfare... right now, he who fields the most dreads likely will win, regardless of supporting fleet.
Unless it's made up completely of Moros I highly doubt it. A decent (20-50) man rr bs/hic fleet can pretty easily pwn an unsupported dread fleet.
I dunno, I mean, even a carrier or two can kick the crap out of Battleships, RR or not. Add in a moros or two, and their drones will seriously screw you up :)
Plus, what do you consider a fleet? I'm thinking 20+ dreads, 2-5 carriers as a capital "fleet", minimum.
|
Grut
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2009.09.14 18:12:00 -
[27]
Originally by: AtheistOfDoom
Originally by: Kittamaru Anyone else have anything to add to this?
I think it's in a good iteraton atm - it brings back the Rock Paper Scissors of fleet warfare... right now, he who fields the most dreads likely will win, regardless of supporting fleet.
Unless it's made up completely of Moros I highly doubt it. A decent (20-50) man rr bs/hic fleet can pretty easily pwn an unsupported dread fleet.
Dreads do easily sniper BS damage when out of seige and hit bs just fine. Ontop of that out of seige they can be RR'd and have 2.5mil odd hp.. thats what? over 10x a fleet bs?
Once you get a critical mass of dreads the only thing thats a threat to it is a bigger fleet of dreads.
Kinsy > deadman you there? Kinsy > are either of us in pods, becase we dont know...
Mostly harmless [ 2005.12.09 19:22:50 ] (notify) You have started trying to warp scramble the Dreadnought |
Kittamaru
Gallente Democracy of Klingon Brothers Wicked Nation
|
Posted - 2009.09.14 18:55:00 -
[28]
Exactly! These ships are designed to swoop in in groups of 5-10 and take them out one at a time :) However, if there is a support fleet, they have to be removed first :)
|
Kittamaru
Gallente Democracy of Klingon Brothers Wicked Nation
|
Posted - 2009.09.15 03:15:00 -
[29]
Nobody else has anything to add?
|
Kittamaru
Gallente Democracy of Klingon Brothers Wicked Nation
|
Posted - 2009.09.17 13:44:00 -
[30]
Getting my bump on :D
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |