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Sistar2
Jita Direct Sale
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Posted - 2009.09.09 08:12:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Sistar2 on 09/09/2009 08:15:38 "Who sells to buy orders anyway" someone asked me the other day, implying that noone in their right mind would do that. Now, as a day trader I make my living off people who sell to buy orders, so of course I know that 10s of thousands of pilots do.
Still, it's a god question. Even more so because I have set up a company (Jita Direct Sale) hoping I can get people to sell directly to me instead of market orders. I am trying to get in contact with small manufacturers. However, it now occurs to me that I know nothing about manufacturers and what they do
In other words, do all manufacturers set up sell orders to maximise their profits? Is it mainly missioners that sell their loot on buy orders? That can not be the case for all items, since not everything can be found as loot. I know many region traders sell to buy orders, are they the main source?. And are there differences across the market, so that manufacturers of some items sell to buy orders, while in other sectors they don't?
Any golden opinions much appreciated.
Edit/NB: I am talking only about Jita / hubs, not how it works in the small markets.
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Tellnan Matkiel
Gallente The Industrial Consortium
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Posted - 2009.09.09 08:20:00 -
[2]
As a small manufacture, I almost always use sell orders. Selling to buy orders usually means a loss or very very little profit. ____________ My views are my own |
DrefsabZN
Caldari Butterfly Effect Corp.
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Posted - 2009.09.09 08:25:00 -
[3]
I often do sell to buy orders especially if I have a lot of an item to move, at the moment I dont get nearly as much time to play as I would like so I dont really have time to micro manage orders with people under cutting by 0.01 after only a few mins. I wont to it if theres a big loss to me or anything but sometimes I will be happy to take a slightly lower percerntage profit for the sake of quick sales.
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Rusom Rokath
Amarr 1m95
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Posted - 2009.09.09 08:57:00 -
[4]
Depends on the buy order. If it's a fair price for my product I'll gladly sell. If it's an attempt to get cheap stuff in order to resell at a profit, I might as wel try to make that profit myself.
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DJ Geist
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Posted - 2009.09.09 09:11:00 -
[5]
It's not unreasonable to sometimes sell to a buy order.
For example, say you are in station cycling through a few items that require vigilant refreshing of your buy price. This is what requires most of your attention.
You also have an alt in a trade hub 16 jumps away. You decide to check price on an item between the 2 trade hubs, and stuff is for sale at your alt's hub at a price that is cheaper than the buy order price at your main's hub.
The thing is, you're attending to more high-end sales. So you decide to just load up your alt and give him a safe run with guaranteed, albeit smaller profit. This is a run that you want to leave on autopilot, where the cargo is not likely to be worthwhile for any suicide gankers.
So in a nutshell, when attending to other things yet knowing clearly the prices in 2 hubs, having an alt do some haul's where you don't want to be bothered babysittinng the bid wars on those items makes sense.
I'm a little tired, so I probably could have explained this more clearly. However, I am doing what i just described as I type this.
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M Blanc
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Posted - 2009.09.09 09:24:00 -
[6]
Presumably, people sell to buy orders if they value rapid turnover of their capital more than margins alone.
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GuntiNDDS
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Posted - 2009.09.09 09:32:00 -
[7]
if default isk/h > margindifference/h(time takes to sell)
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Emily Spankratchet
Minmatar Pragmatics
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Posted - 2009.09.09 11:14:00 -
[8]
When I'm divesting myself of accumulated loot, I use a little program I wrote that spits out three lists based on eve-metrics prices.
- Reprocess
- Sell to buy orders
- Sell using sell orders
Generally speaking, if I'm going to sell random accumulated cruft I do it to buy orders unless I'm missing out on the opportunity of a high sell price or I have a large volume of the item in question. If I'm manufacturing or otherwise working in bulk, I always use sell orders.
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Sky Princess
Gallente University of Caille
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Posted - 2009.09.09 11:45:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Sky Princess on 09/09/2009 11:48:45 When mining I sell for the highest price I can find, but time is money. I sell to buy orders because I am not prepared to wait for that single person who actually pays my price, while he can buy it everywhere cheaper. Travelling for a better price cost time to, so I don't always sell my stuff for the best price. Life is tough.
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Where ever I go, there I am. |
Landrassa
Friendly Neighbourhood Extortion Company
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Posted - 2009.09.09 12:08:00 -
[10]
As an empire pvp pilot, I end up with tons of loot in small quantities. Typically, unless the buy order is way below the sell orders or there's a large amount to sell of a certain item, it just isn't worth the bother to set up sell orders for everything. Dump the stuff on the market and get moving again, that's pretty much what it comes down to --------------------------------------------------- Recruitment thread |
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Elenos
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Posted - 2009.09.09 12:10:00 -
[11]
I often sell the large guns that I pick up in mission loot. I sell these to sell orders and know i can get around 800k for the good ones - but there are sell orders up for a couple more isk than the buy orders. Do people really make a living off 30 isk per unit of an 800k isk item ? Its usually the same trader buying my stuff up. Is it likely he is selling these in an obscure market somewhere in another region ?
I tried trading but the markets move too quickly for my playtime to be able to watch stuff move. For this reason i usually have to sell to buy orders or re-process to minerals and give to my indy alt.
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Kalrand
Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.09 13:16:00 -
[12]
If someone places a very reasonable buy order, I'll happily sell to it. It's not worth my time to try to 0.01 isk people, and I know I'll put up buy orders at the middle of the current buy and sell and get filled almost instantly on liquid items.
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SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2009.09.09 13:28:00 -
[13]
If the margin between sell orders and buy orders is tight, it's often more effective to just sell to buy order. However, in Jita if the margin is say 10% or higher difference you can almost always place a sell order for 5% above the buy order and someone will buy it up really quickly.
Given your name "Jita Direct Sale" you have two factors working against you.
1) You have to find the medium between offering to buy at a price that is attractive to manufactures. Which means you have less margin to play with when selling.
2) You have to sell high enough to not make a loss, which means the manufacture could come back a day later and sell more product slightly cheaper then you purchased the items for originally.
You literally have to find a price that is high enough for manufactures to want to sell to you now, but then turn around and sell low enough to discurrage manufactures from just making their own sell orders.
You'll be volume trading, making thousands of low ISK transactions so don't go into buying Ravens for example.
Amarr for Life |
Dretzle Omega
Caldari Global Economy Experts Stellar Economy Experts
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Posted - 2009.09.09 14:00:00 -
[14]
A lot of people here seem to be thinking like a trader and not like... well, everyone else in Eve (though there were a couple). Maybe I'm wrong and it is traders doing most of the selling to buy orders, dumping their stock, but...
Some pilots (a) don't know how to set up orders (b) don't have the skills to do so effectively or (c) don't want to take the time to monitor them.
For example, missioners/pvpers might go to a hub to buy and outfit a new ship (maybe an upgrade or because they lost one). They could also take that chance to sell off some of their old stuff (maybe to make enough money to buy their new ship/mods). Hubs that are close to mission hubs might even be better.
Most of these people probably don't even want to bother trying to put up a sell order, especially if the margin is relatively small to them, like within a few Mil ISK, I'd guess. This could probably apply to miners and explorers, as well. They want to make quick ISK and don't want to wait around for however long it might take to sell.
Now for the real question, why would manufacturers want to sell to you instead of to the market? If you would offer them a higher buy price than on the market, or buy in their area not near a hub, then why not put up a buy order for that and who cares who fills it, the manufacturers or someone else?
Basically, even if they're willing to sell to you instead of putting up a sell order, then you'd have to offer them more than the buy order on the market. If they find that is high enough, they'd also sell to a buy order on the market, so why are you trying to avoid the market? I'm not trying to shoot you down, I just don't see the added value of your company.
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Sistar2
Jita Direct Sale
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Posted - 2009.09.09 15:01:00 -
[15]
Thanks for the input so far, I do believe that most people selling to buy orders must be mission runners. But still, some manufacturers seem to sell to buy orders from time to time...
About my company (not the main topic here though!):
Originally by: SencneS You have to sell high enough to not make a loss, which means the manufacture could come back a day later and sell more product slightly cheaper then you purchased the items for originally.
Ideally, he would sell to me again
Originally by: Dretzle Omega If you would offer them a higher buy price than on the market, or buy in their area not near a hub, then why not put up a buy order for that and who cares who fills it, the manufacturers or someone else?
Because managing buy orders is a lot of work to me, this might be a pleasant change.
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Kuralkion
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.09.09 15:33:00 -
[16]
I'm a mission runner and I sell most of my loot/salvage to buy orders if they are not lower than 10% than the lowest available sell order. I reduce this tolerance to 5% if the average price of the item it higher than 1m. Micromanaging your sell orders is tiresome, especially if you have only 1-2 pieces of every item in your sale stock. I rather save time and do another mission instead.
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SetrakDark
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Posted - 2009.09.09 15:53:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Kuralkion I'm a mission runner and I sell most of my loot/salvage to buy orders if they are not lower than 10% than the lowest available sell order. I reduce this tolerance to 5% if the average price of the item it higher than 1m. Micromanaging your sell orders is tiresome, especially if you have only 1-2 pieces of every item in your sale stock. I rather save time and do another mission instead.
same. micromanaging sell-offs eventually becomes more costly than just dumping.
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Teras Menac
Gallente Tarantula LLC The Ancients.
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Posted - 2009.09.09 16:01:00 -
[18]
Originally by: GuntiNDDS if default isk/h > margindifference/h(time takes to sell)
This^^
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SetrakDark
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Posted - 2009.09.09 16:53:00 -
[19]
I received an offer for your margin trading service and I figured I'd respond here so it can add to the overall discussion.
As a mission-runner I would happily use this service on my Jita runs for a few select high-price items if I could finalize the deal within 20 minutes or so. Otherwise, it's still time I could spend in missions.
Also, the items would be higher priced, so perhaps not as movable on the market as you would like.
Hope this helps and good luck with your enterprise.
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Vechtor
Gallente Federation Mineral Reserves
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Posted - 2009.09.09 17:21:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Vechtor on 09/09/2009 17:26:36 Well Sistar2, my Corp, for example, sells things both ways. Whatever we manufacture will be put on market in a sell order, to help maximize the profits. Of course, we allways direct our manufacturing into ships/modules/things that have a clear upward trend in price, this way making easier to make profit with a sell order reducing the risk of having things on market for too long. Whatever we mine just to make money, depending on the price of the ore or the price of the refined minerals, is sold to buy orders at least 99% of the times. On my trading activities, I use both ways, depending on the price or the liquidity necessity (and daytrading implies good liquidity necessity generaly speaking...). On inter-regional trading, depending on what your trading and the margin you will have if you sell to buy orders, puting the goods to wait on a sell order might not worth the time the money will be stuck there.
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XCardak
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Posted - 2009.09.09 17:51:00 -
[21]
Edited by: XCardak on 09/09/2009 17:54:49 Edited by: XCardak on 09/09/2009 17:52:13
Originally by: Dretzle Omega
Quote: For example, missioners/pvpers might go to a hub to buy and outfit a new ship (maybe an upgrade or because they lost one). They could also take that chance to sell off some of their old stuff (maybe to make enough money to buy their new ship/mods). Hubs that are close to mission hubs might even be better.
People who Trade/Haul like me has probably run missions for most of the high end agents in the area. Usually in a Caldari mission, your going to need ammo, drones and particular resistance shields. These can sell higher than normal cause we know Mission Runners need them and they would rather pay a bit more to get the item to finish the mission and get the next one quickly. This is their way of making isk. So paying a bit more so they can go on the next mission is usually worth it unless its an extremely high price.
Quote: Most of these people probably don't even want to bother trying to put up a sell order, especially if the margin is relatively small to them, like within a few Mil ISK, I'd guess. This could probably apply to miners and explorers, as well. They want to make quick ISK and don't want to wait around for however long it might take to sell.
This is probrably true to small order miners (Less than 20 million Veldspar blocks)But you would be surprised at how much Velspar revolves around the system.
Quote: Now for the real question, why would manufacturers want to sell to you instead of to the market? If you would offer them a higher buy price than on the market, or buy in their area not near a hub, then why not put up a buy order for that and who cares who fills it, the manufacturers or someone else?
Basically, even if they're willing to sell to you instead of putting up a sell order, then you'd have to offer them more than the buy order on the market. If they find that is high enough, they'd also sell to a buy order on the market, so why are you trying to avoid the market? I'm not trying to shoot you down, I just don't see the added value of your company.
Well if a Manufacturer has lets say 100 Cap Recharger II he wants to move but there is only a buy order for 50 at 1 million p/u, You can approach him with the offer of purchasing 100 units at 800k p/u because its an all out sell, he doesn't know when the other 50 would be sold, and your right there with the isk. Get paid now, and manufacture more stuff with the isk you just acquired, or get paid later the full amount and not know when the entire lot is going to sell.
As Trader/Hauler thats what we do. Its it predatory? Well yeah, but products move alot smoother with us Trader/Haulers doing this cause it takes alot of time managing stuff and moving stuff around. Thus it allows people of other professions to do what they need to do to make isk, or more importantly, Have Fun
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Manu Hermanus
FaDoyToy
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Posted - 2009.09.09 18:56:00 -
[22]
sitting around in jita playing the .01 isk game to sell a 100 various random items is too much a pain in the ass for an extra little bit of extra income from the sale. and then there is all the time to set up orders. boo
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KaarBaak
Minmatar Squirrel Team
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Posted - 2009.09.09 19:07:00 -
[23]
My 'trade' is reprocessing.
I either sell loot to buy orders or reprocess it, depending on which brings in greater profit.
I purchase lots and lots of stuff via buy orders...you'd be surprised how many mission runners just sell stuff off. I then move/reprocess those items.
Results of reprocessing are always sold via sell orders.
All of this is based off my reprocess calculator which tells me the current buy/sell price of mods in region and calculates reprocess value of those items. Print out the list and go 'yardsaling.'
KB KB
Beware the beast Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport or lust or greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. |
Dane Shopkeep
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Posted - 2009.09.09 20:28:00 -
[24]
I'll sell to buy orders if it results in a profit and I have excess stock in that particular item. Sitting on 100s of a particular module because I can get more profit via sell orders over weeks and months isn't necessarily a good idea. In general I make more recycling that capital through several times than holding out for a premium price on each and every sale.
The other advantage is I use a variety of buy orders myself with differing ranges and price points. Knocking out the generous buy orders makes it more likely somebody will settle for selling to my not so generous orders. And then the cycle perpetuates as I've bought inventory on the cheap when the generous buy order is re-listed.
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JitaAlt4
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Posted - 2009.09.09 20:45:00 -
[25]
Edited by: JitaAlt4 on 09/09/2009 20:45:57 tl;dr thread
Just wanted to mention that selling part of your inventory to a "reasonable" buy order and putting the rest on sell order, particularly in a hub, is a pretty bad move, as you just created yourself another competitor. It's a pattern that I've seen when I put some T2 buy orders (sell order expiration = sale time + couple seconds so it's obviously the same guy).
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Fraps
Setenta Corp Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2009.09.09 20:52:00 -
[26]
I was looking for a wholesaler for my T3 hulls a while ago, finding none i dumped the hulls to buy orders. still made like 2.9 bill of off ten hulls so it wasn't a big deal.
I simply don't have the time or desire to babysit sell orders plus I don't have a char. available to monitor them from a distance. not that there is a skill that lets you change orders from 2 billion jumps away.
15 more hulls to dump next week so im sure I will make some traders happy
Originally by: Rohann /emote pokes woody and moons him
I R NEKID SEE!?!?!?!?! |
Chi'kote
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Posted - 2009.09.09 20:55:00 -
[27]
Coming from a non-trader, I almost always use (fair) buy orders. I make periodic runs to jita to buy & sell stuff en mass, quick selling everything so I can pick up and run back to 0.0 with my new gear and isk in pocket. The only time I set up sell orders are when a) there are no fair buy orders (never happened to me in jita), and b) when I sell something at least a few mill in value outside of mainstream hubs. Those are usually random ships I build because there is quite a profit out where I am on ships I can produce.
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Wasted Skillpoints
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Posted - 2009.09.09 21:17:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Wasted Skillpoints on 09/09/2009 21:17:44 I love buy orders that are horribly stupid, depending on their reasons of course. Yes, please put a buy order up that is 5% off sell and is still incredibly profitable to me while is a horrible waste of isk to you. Tie up billions for weeks to make that 5%, good job.
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Dariah Stardweller
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Posted - 2009.09.09 22:24:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Rusom Rokath Depends on the buy order. If it's a fair price for my product I'll gladly sell. If it's an attempt to get cheap stuff in order to resell at a profit, I might as wel try to make that profit myself.
This, if I can get a quick turnover with my isk in just 1 second at a 5% profit I'll take that over waiting a day for a 10% profit.
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