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Mystical Dawn
Minmatar Nomadic Angels
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Posted - 2009.08.28 20:17:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Mystical Dawn on 28/08/2009 20:22:09
EBANK was just big fat ass ponzi scam and people are too brainwashed to understand that it really did happen. Now quit the bs and let the secondary market heal and give chance to real projects.
EBANK is gone and buried and nobody is going to miss them.
Move on!
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2009.08.28 20:25:00 -
[2]
I agree about the fact we should move on.
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Clara Mismer
Minmatar Gulfonodi Industries
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Posted - 2009.08.28 20:39:00 -
[3]
Originally by: LaVista Vista I agree about the fact we should move on.
Moving on is fine as long as the lesson being taught was learned.
If your going to run a enterprise and track it properly you should have the mechanisms in place to track AND use them.
If you going to pay people to oversee and run a company expect them to earn the money or at least stop paying them after it is proven they failed and didn't do the job they promised.
While the items used to earn the isk can be hidden the revenue stream and risks shouldn't be.
There is a point where you loose the economies of scale - it should be noted and not crossed. This goes with when you in-game time is like a job - you will slow or stop logging in eventually.
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2009.08.28 20:47:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Clara Mismer
Originally by: LaVista Vista I agree about the fact we should move on.
Moving on is fine as long as the lesson being taught was learned.
If your going to run a enterprise and track it properly you should have the mechanisms in place to track AND use them.
If you going to pay people to oversee and run a company expect them to earn the money or at least stop paying them after it is proven they failed and didn't do the job they promised.
While the items used to earn the isk can be hidden the revenue stream and risks shouldn't be.
There is a point where you loose the economies of scale - it should be noted and not crossed. This goes with when you in-game time is like a job - you will slow or stop logging in eventually.
I totally agree.
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Potsnack
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Posted - 2009.08.28 20:51:00 -
[5]
Much as I have no wish to feed a troll. The secondary market has been dying for the last 2 years from what I have witnessed and the Ebank drama has finished it as far as I'm concerned. I've been in the game since 2005 and I'll never invest again. It really is a shame as there will be many Eve players who havent seen the secondary market working as it did/could/should (zip back 2 years+), but there it is.
I'd imagine CCP are seriously concerned about the latest Ebank developments, because IMO it really does have a major impact on the future of the Eve and the secondary market trading aspect of the game, markets and trust, something which I'm guessing they were secretly very proud of, if never vocally.
I'm lucky I guess that I had little in EBank, but it's no secret I personally trusted Ricdic (to the end), so I'm cr*p for sure. I really do fear though that unless Ebank release funds in full immediately this latest saga brings the seconday market to quite a brutal end as far as Eve is concerned. That really is a shame :(
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Heroldyn
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Posted - 2009.08.28 20:55:00 -
[6]
on one hand, i find the situation quite funny. on the other hand, its propably marks the end of the secondary market in eve, on another hand tho, the secondary market in eve never really worked very well anyways.
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2009.08.28 20:56:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Potsnack Much as I have no wish to feed a troll. The secondary market has been dying for the last 2 years from what I have witnessed and the Ebank drama has finished it as far as I'm concerned. I've been in the game since 2005 and I'll never invest again. It really is a shame as there will be many Eve players who havent seen the secondary market working as it did/could/should (zip back 2 years+), but there it is.
I'd imagine CCP are seriously concerned about the latest Ebank developments, because IMO it really does have a major impact on the future of the Eve and the secondary market trading aspect of the game, markets and trust, something which I'm guessing they were secretly very proud of, if never vocally.
I'm lucky I guess that I had little in EBank, but it's no secret I personally trusted Ricdic (to the end), so I'm cr*p for sure. I really do fear though that unless Ebank release funds in full immediately this latest saga brings the seconday market to quite a brutal end as far as Eve is concerned. That really is a shame :(
I might be living in a dream and all. While I see your point, I'm not sure that it kills the "secondary" market(It's really the primary market, but that's a different argument).
Is this the last chance we had at kicking the player-driven investment market alive? I'm not sure. I think ECR is the last shot. Depending on the outcome of DBANK and EBANK, ECR will have a harder or easier time in the long run, depending on where they want to take it.
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Trebor DeCaldar
Caldari Formosa Universal HQ
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Posted - 2009.08.28 21:01:00 -
[8]
Maybe if the secondary market dries up a little now... and CCP takes note... we can get some of the Market tools added IN GAME that everyone wants!!!
Originally by: Hoo Is Siigari lost a ship...
In other news, water is wet, fire is hot, and bacon is delicious
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Potsnack
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Posted - 2009.08.28 21:12:00 -
[9]
I hear you LaVista Vista, but seriously, I think others have hit on an important point in other threads. As we both know, this is an online game, where in real terms the individual puts little on the line. Prior to 2007 your reputation in Eve actually meant something, and players such as Ambo, Shar Tegral etc did their best to maintain their reputation (both of whom I salute BTW as they always did as they promised).
Today Eve lives in a different world. The Goons are the heros (after the BoB war), guys who excell (at any means) in removing the worth and will from competing players. Scams are applauded etc and anyone intentionally honourable or ethical are now scorned upon.
Eve, Primary, seconday, investments/markets is finished as I see it, unless Ebank pull something out of the bag, real soon :(
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Kalrand
Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.28 22:11:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Potsnack honourable
QFP
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Viktor Villiance
Caldari Trailerpark Industries
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Posted - 2009.08.28 22:17:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Potsnack
Eve, Primary, seconday, investments/markets is finished as I see it, unless Ebank pull something out of the bag, real soon :(
I am going to have to disagree with you here. It is human nature and this will occur again.
What is really the issue boils down to 2 facts:
1) There isn't an securities commission that checks on all this like we have in the real world, thus no big brother to come down on those who commit fraud and such.
This problem of enforcement is due both to ccp not providing a means by which to enforce (which we may not want ultimately) and also limited means by players to enforce it themselves. Bounties and wars are only going to get you so far, and hell, half the time folks quit playing that particular character/account once they've stolen all the money anyways.
2) Greed. Small banks that deal in 200-500 billion and a few hundred folks are much less likely to succumb to this issue. But someone sitting on 1 trillion will be more willing to do this because they profit more (in the real world and in eve) by doing so than if they kept the account/character and didn't steal.
A major bank can not work because of the amounts of money that are involved. We're human and that's that.
Another thing that is hampering a 'secondary market' (a money market, really) is the lack of real, fixed capital. Sure you can call BPOs fixed capital, but they really aren't. Genuine fixed capital is something like land (which this game doesn't have) or plants/equipment (which this game doesn't really have either, due to the rules of anchoring and such) that keep value held in a non-liquid form.
Almost all things on eve are liquid. Even plex and BPOs are easy (in that it doesn't take effort) to sell, you needn't retool a titan BPO when buying one like you would a Nike Factory you purchased as Coca-Cola to make it a bottling plant. That BPO works like a BPO all the time.
Thus, without fixed capital and a real means of collateral (one could argue that you can have someone give you something worth the amount of the loan or such, but that's not how real world loans, people don't take your home away when you apply for a second mortgage, you get to keep the home and only lose it when you don't make payments) we will not have a stable 'bank' system.
This is what happened in the 1800's in the United States (heck, really up until 1910), so it isn't as 'bad' as folks here are making it out to be.
Demonetization, while fun, ultimately isn't productive. Until there becomes something like the SEC or we can establish a better means of trust (not just word of mouth) as well as completely transparent activities taken on by such banks I'd advise never invest something in this that you couldn't afford to set on fire.
I won't even get into the issue of banks being able to make sufficient returns to pay interest with due to the rapidly (in comparison to the real world) markets and lack of a general rate of interest.
Inflation in this world varies on each item/service and despite holding an economics degree, I suspect it would take quite a few economists with a lot of time to determine a 'market basket' of goods that takes into account external and internal shocks to give a baseline CPI and rate of inflation from year to year or quarter to quarter that we could even begin to use as a rate of interest by banks for loans.
Though, CCP could help this along by forming a 'central' bank (like the Fed) which only deals with player-run banks, not the players themselves, thus helping stabilize and secure rates and lines of credit/capital.
Not to mention actually set some regulation on amounts of deposit kept vs. amounts loaned out.
Such a complex topic for the internet spaceships, but that's what it is. It was once thought that man could be trusted with the keys to his own destiny, but as it turns out, that destiny was to forever deny himself entry to that fate from the futile effort of ever-lasting |
Athre
Minmatar The Higher Standard
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Posted - 2009.08.28 22:27:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Potsnack I really do fear though that unless Ebank release funds in full immediately this latest saga brings the seconday market to quite a brutal end as far as Eve is concerned. That really is a shame :(
It is not possible to either do Full or Immediate. I voted for Full and that will take a while.
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Redbad
Minmatar Mean Corp Mean Coalition
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Posted - 2009.08.28 22:42:00 -
[13]
EVE doesn't need a bank, EVE needs a pawnbroker.
Drop minerals, ships or other trinkets, get ISK. Return ISK with some extra and get trinkets back or keep ISK after x period and loose trinkets.
It's really that simple. In an EVE-world with everyone creating alts, there is really no-one and nothing to trust except the trinkets they can deposit.
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Ji Sama
Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll
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Posted - 2009.08.28 22:43:00 -
[14]
MD IS GYING!
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Viktor Villiance
Caldari Trailerpark Industries
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Posted - 2009.08.28 22:59:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Redbad EVE doesn't need a bank, EVE needs a pawnbroker.
Drop minerals, ships or other trinkets, get ISK. Return ISK with some extra and get trinkets back or keep ISK after x period and loose trinkets.
It's really that simple. In an EVE-world with everyone creating alts, there is really no-one and nothing to trust except the trinkets they can deposit.
There is no trust in the real world either. Look, an alt may be played by the same person, but it IS two different characters. Folks need to stop looking at things as 'players' and look at it in terms of characters.
Trust is based in terms of past performance. At any point someone can do something that completely goes contrary to the nature of the person and that is what we call 'risk' in the real world this exists all the time. This is why you even have a credit history.
That is the real world trust, no different than EVE. If a character has no history, then they have no credit - high risk. If a character has a good, lengthy history than they are low risk. It was once thought that man could be trusted with the keys to his own destiny, but as it turns out, that destiny was to forever deny himself entry to that fate from the futile effort of ever-lasting |
Redbad
Minmatar Mean Corp Mean Coalition
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Posted - 2009.08.28 23:03:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Viktor Villiance
Originally by: Redbad EVE doesn't need a bank, EVE needs a pawnbroker.
Drop minerals, ships or other trinkets, get ISK. Return ISK with some extra and get trinkets back or keep ISK after x period and loose trinkets.
It's really that simple. In an EVE-world with everyone creating alts, there is really no-one and nothing to trust except the trinkets they can deposit.
There is no trust in the real world either. Look, an alt may be played by the same person, but it IS two different characters. Folks need to stop looking at things as 'players' and look at it in terms of characters.
Trust is based in terms of past performance. At any point someone can do something that completely goes contrary to the nature of the person and that is what we call 'risk' in the real world this exists all the time. This is why you even have a credit history.
That is the real world trust, no different than EVE. If a character has no history, then they have no credit - high risk. If a character has a good, lengthy history than they are low risk.
Nonsense, characters with "good, lengthy history" just ran away with a lot of ISK. Pawn or be pawned.
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Viktor Villiance
Caldari Trailerpark Industries
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Posted - 2009.08.28 23:05:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Redbad
Nonsense, characters with "good, lengthy history" just ran away with a lot of ISK. Pawn or be pawned.
I just said that. Low risk, but risk is still risk. Just because something looks safe doesn't make it so.
The idea is that once they do it, they will lose all their credibility and that character is never useful again. Just like in real life. It was once thought that man could be trusted with the keys to his own destiny, but as it turns out, that destiny was to forever deny himself entry to that fate from the futile effort of ever-lasting |
Kyra Neve
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Posted - 2009.08.28 23:12:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Viktor Villiance
There is no trust in the real world either.
QFT big time.
Never invest, or gamble more than you can lose. It's all about risk management, the basics of money making. You can't win in lottery, if you don't invest money on the ticket.
The brutal recession out there is good example of it. Trust is gone, deflation rising.
But think this as end of good times, before recession. Always before recession, you get money with really small margins, and low cost. When it goes over certain limit, it starts to crash.
MD is on it's way to the recession right now, lack of trust and ingame deflation. Let's see how long this will last in game
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Redbad
Minmatar Mean Corp Mean Coalition
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Posted - 2009.08.28 23:17:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Redbad on 28/08/2009 23:24:26
Originally by: Viktor Villiance
Originally by: Redbad
Nonsense, characters with "good, lengthy history" just ran away with a lot of ISK. Pawn or be pawned.
I just said that. Low risk, but risk is still risk. Just because something looks safe doesn't make it so.
The idea is that once they do it, they will lose all their credibility and that character is never useful again. Just like in real life.
Cannot pay the mortgage? Lose the house. Cannot pay the loanterms on your car? Get it repossesed. It is this mechanism that is not in EVE by default, and thus the only possible retribution for not paying back is grievance and stalking by the loanshark or parties he employs to do that for him. If you want to be a bank in EVE be a real loanshark and grief defaulters and their associates and their relations and their corpmates and make them pay up.
If you want to be a nice institution like E-Bank, become a pawnshop.
Edit: spellz and: in an almost lawless world like EVE you can "buy" the law with wardec's. If Ray continues the bank he should run it Caldari-style!
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.08.29 00:04:00 -
[20]
Quote:
Much as I have no wish to feed a troll. The secondary market has been dying for the last 2 years from what I have witnessed and the Ebank drama has finished it as far as I'm concerned
EvE is growing old. And evolving. People in EvE are also evolving and getting more aggressive and effective, including dishonest ones.
I hope people stop calling "secondary" what is not a secondary market. Anyway there'll be people still getting public funds, their investors will just be actually aware of the risks.
Quote:
I hear you LaVista Vista, but seriously, I think others have hit on an important point in other threads. As we both know, this is an online game, where in real terms the individual puts little on the line. Prior to 2007 your reputation in Eve actually meant something, and players such as Ambo, Shar Tegral etc did their best to maintain their reputation (both of whom I salute BTW as they always did as they promised).
Today Eve lives in a different world. The Goons are the heros (after the BoB war), guys who excell (at any means) in removing the worth and will from competing players. Scams are applauded etc and anyone intentionally honourable or ethical are now scorned upon.
The precious reputation was a speculation bubble people heavily invested in.
Incredibly enough, the bubble bursted (!) exactly like speculation bubbles do.
The "PLOP" might wake up those who decided to trust everyone that was good at farming rep and actually start demanding transparency.
- Auditing and consulting
Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Ray McCormack
Kisoken Innovations
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Posted - 2009.08.29 00:18:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Mystical Dawn EBANK was just big fat ass ponzi scam
So's your face.
Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah |
Meckle Moiyal
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Posted - 2009.08.29 00:59:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: Mystical Dawn EBANK was just big fat ass ponzi scam
So's your face.
This made me laugh. There's nothin like a good "your face" or "your mom" joke at the right time.
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Dhan
Resurrection
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Posted - 2009.08.29 01:44:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: Mystical Dawn EBANK was just big fat ass ponzi scam
So's your face.
This made my day
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Internal Dispute
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Posted - 2009.08.29 01:49:00 -
[24]
EBANK in itself wasn't a scam. Only the ex-CEO took advantage of his position and seemed to screw everyone involed 3 ways from Sunday.
Im so sure of this I have put togeather 2.75T ISK from 27 confidential investors in the form of a bailout. Though to be 100% honest we are looking at the long term rewards for such a bailout.
ID.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.08.29 02:09:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Internal Dispute EBANK in itself wasn't a scam. Only the ex-CEO took advantage of his position and seemed to screw everyone involed 3 ways from Sunday.
Im so sure of this I have put togeather 2.75T ISK from 27 confidential investors in the form of a bailout. Though to be 100% honest we are looking at the long term rewards for such a bailout.
ID.
The big question is: what do you pretend to achieve / earn / gain by saving EBANK? For sure it won't immediately give you 10% a month interests, won't it? This is just a sligthly different version to what I asked to Ray: what do they believe to get? Not money, nor it's logic to expect customers will not do a massive run.
So, why? To be able to say "I saved EBANK"? That's a legitimate reason in a game, but isn't that sentence going to cost you a bit too much? - Auditing and consulting
Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Fraa Excelsias
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Posted - 2009.08.29 02:14:00 -
[26]
Because myself and other investors belive that EBANK can once again be profitable. What I have offered is 2.75t in investment for basically 75% of the company..... This not just so I can put my hand up in the air and run around like I've done something special screaming "YAY I HELPED SAVE EBANK" quite to the contrary this is an investment to make ISK.
ID.
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Dhan
Resurrection
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Posted - 2009.08.29 02:21:00 -
[27]
This bailout idea kinda put the breaks on the whole "ask for evebank to shut down and pay out at 20% original deposit value" movement.
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skilzrulz
Gallente 0neZeR0 Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.08.29 03:07:00 -
[28]
I told everybody it was a scam.
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Ji Sama
Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll
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Posted - 2009.08.29 03:28:00 -
[29]
Originally by: skilzrulz I told everybody it was a scam.
says the co scammer!
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Craig Skyle
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.08.29 04:04:00 -
[30]
Moving on is fine as long as the lesson being taught was learned.
If your going to run a enterprise and track it properly you should have the mechanisms in place to track AND use them.
If you going to pay people to oversee and run a company expect them to earn the money or at least stop paying them after it is proven they failed and didn't do the job they promised.
While the items used to earn the isk can be hidden the revenue stream and risks shouldn't be.
There is a point where you loose the economies of scale - it should be noted and not crossed. This goes with when you in-game time is like a job - you will slow or stop logging in eventually.
Chrysler#1, Savings & Loans, Enron, Arthur Anderson, Chrysler #2, GM . . .
Soory, what was the point again? Craig Skyle SkyleTech R&D
SkyleTech R&D, for quick turn around time on your research projects, contact us. |
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