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stoicfaux
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Posted - 2009.08.16 23:04:00 -
[1]
After several threads about which has more DPS, a Torp Golem or a Torp CNR, I created a spreadsheet to show the numbers: TorpGolem-v-TorpCNR-1-0.zip It's an OpenOffice spreadsheet.
Summary: Against big, slowly orbiting battleships (ex: Pith Exterminator) the CNR wins. Against a big fast moving battleship, a small fast battleship at any speed (Gith Commander,) or cruisers (Mercenary Commander, Dread Pithum Nullifier) at any speed, the Golem with two or more Target Painters will significantly out DPS a CNR carrying one Target Painter.
Use EFT to punch in your torpedo and Target Painter numbers, add your favorite NPC targets to the list, and check the results.
Enjoy!
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stoicfaux
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Posted - 2009.08.17 04:26:00 -
[2]
Fyi- added version 2.0 with allows you to compare 4 missile profiles (any type of missile.)
More importantly, it looks like a Torp Golem with three Target Painters will meet or beat a Cruise Missile CNR against cruisers of all things... The Golem may not have the range, but out-dps'ing cruise missiles against cruisers is still just insane.
The CN Cruise CNR used for the comparision had 4xCN-BCS, 7xCN-Cruise Launchers, 1xPWNAGE, 1xRigor II, 2xRigor I, and all relevant missile implants.
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Arthamel
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2009.08.17 05:15:00 -
[3]
I call it a fail. Golem wont overdps CNR cause he shoots 4 torps, most likely one of them will get shot down by rats. CRN shoots 8, one gets down, its 50% less dps loss then golem.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.08.17 05:19:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Arthamel I call it a fail. Golem wont overdps CNR cause he shoots 4 torps, most likely one of them will get shot down by rats. CRN shoots 8, one gets down, its 50% less dps loss then golem.
NPC defenders dont kill torps unless its some "uber" NPC (like 0.0 complex station, expedition NPC or high level complex overseer)
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pyus
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Posted - 2009.08.17 05:30:00 -
[5]
Great work stoic. - will be very nice to play around with all this when I can get it open on something other than excel (which is complaining to me right now about the file).
Until then I'm wondering about 3x TP Golem vs orbiting BS rats using Rage torps? I find myself using Rages to very good effect quite often against BS rats that have gone into orbit and are within range, but I'm only using 2 TPs and have some more skills to learn to max them out.
Also wondering what the effect of putting a Flare rig on would be... Bah, but I am saying stuff that should really try for myself on the sheet.
Thanks for posting it
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.08.17 06:57:00 -
[6]
Interesting.
Last good relevant threads on the subject have been flare vs rigor new missile damage formula and missionrunning
Overall your results seem to be reasonable, altho I would like to point out that Cruise CNR is usually not flown bcos of it's raw damage potential but bcos it's cheaper to fit and has range of cruise missiles that can nuke your performance in torpedo ship in some missions.
On average CNR is approx as fast as Golem in missions. I mean in real missions. RoF bonus is better than burst damage IF you can one volley stuff, if this additional burst damage can make you one volley and CNR can't do it then Golem is faster, etc. CNR has 16.6 % higher base dps, Golem has better burst damage (ie it's more likely to one volley your current target) and painter bonus. And ofc most reasonable approach in ravenkind ship is to use those saved fit profiles and fly most missions with torpedoes and fit cruise only for those missions where they have edge.
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Cpt Cosmic
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Posted - 2009.08.17 07:17:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Cpt Cosmic on 17/08/2009 07:18:41 I dont have any fancy spreadsheets but I have flying experience with those ships.
few things that makes torp golem superior: 1. defenders do NOT reduce your dps because of torp HP 2. torp golem with 2 tp insta pops cruisers and bc 3. npcs die so fast thus can easily tank with 3 slots without expensive officer mods
but there are some mission where rats are further out then your max torp range and flying into range takes time thus in the end having both is good => you can change ship when you need it.
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Tamahra
Gallente Danke fuer den Fisch
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Posted - 2009.08.17 07:23:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Arthamel I call it a fail. Golem wont overdps CNR cause he shoots 4 torps, most likely one of them will get shot down by rats. CRN shoots 8, one gets down, its 50% less dps loss then golem.
since when has a cnr 8 missile launcher slots
/facepalm
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.08.17 10:26:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Cpt Cosmic Edited by: Cpt Cosmic on 17/08/2009 07:18:41 I dont have any fancy spreadsheets but I have flying experience with those ships.
few things that makes torp golem superior: 1. defenders do NOT reduce your dps because of torp HP 2. torp golem with 2 tp insta pops cruisers and bc 3. npcs die so fast thus can easily tank with 3 slots without expensive officer mods
but there are some mission where rats are further out then your max torp range and flying into range takes time thus in the end having both is good => you can change ship when you need it.
Small correction. Defenders do lower your damage even with torpedoes regardless of defender being unable to take whole torp out in one hit. Defender mechaniks was changed a while ago and missiles nowdays do damage on hit propotoinal to their remaining hp.
And regardless of what ship you use it's relatively easy to refit with either cruise or torp using those saved fits. Well other than rigs and hardwires in your head ofc. Then again in those missions where cruise missiles are better (there is not THAT many of them, but it depends on the region where you run missions to some degree) they will be better also without that damage and signature hardwire and rigors so you can still use the same ship and your torpedo hardwires with them.
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.08.17 10:32:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Tamahra
Originally by: Arthamel I call it a fail. Golem wont overdps CNR cause he shoots 4 torps, most likely one of them will get shot down by rats. CRN shoots 8, one gets down, its 50% less dps loss then golem.
since when has a cnr 8 missile launcher slots
/facepalm
Other than obvious hiccup with number of missile slots on CNR I think it's reasonable to confront again certain misunderstandings about how missiles and defenders work.
Defender launch is fixsed propability for every NPC present and is triggered by missile launch. Ie every time your missile launches there is fixsed propability for each NPC present that they will launch defender bcos of that. Ie CNR will get more defenders alunched for it bcos it has more missile slots and RoF bonus, but at the end of day both ships lose exactly equal portion of their firepower to defenders as long as missiles are not grouped.
I do not know if this is already fixsed, but when missile grouping was added to the game NPC's acted to grouped missile volley like you would have launched just one missile. Thus Golem was losing 1/4 of it's dps to defenders it used to lose before and CNR was losing 1/7th of it's dps to defenders that it used to lose before.
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stoicfaux
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Posted - 2009.08.17 20:05:00 -
[11]
Defender versus Missile Groups: dev blog
It's at the end.
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.08.17 20:49:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Seriously Bored on 17/08/2009 20:53:03
Originally by: stoicfaux Defender versus Missile Groups: dev blog
It's at the end.
Whoah, interesting link. You can use smartbombs to counter missiles? Learn something new every day.
And for anyone too lazy to click the link, seems that your torps are completely immune to defenders as long as you don't stack them. Only if you stack them is the damage reduced proportionally to missile HP. +1 for the Golem.
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Kismo
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Posted - 2009.08.17 20:53:00 -
[13]
How many rigor rigs does your example cruise CNR with 1 painter have?
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stoicfaux
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Posted - 2009.08.17 22:46:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Kismo How many rigor rigs does your example cruise CNR with 1 painter have?
The Cruise CNR I used for the sample data had two Rigor Is and one Rigor II. (Plus 4x CN BCS, a PWNAGE TP, and all relevant +5% implants.)
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Kismo
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Posted - 2009.08.17 23:23:00 -
[15]
Originally by: stoicfaux
Originally by: Kismo How many rigor rigs does your example cruise CNR with 1 painter have?
The Cruise CNR I used for the sample data had two Rigor Is and one Rigor II. (Plus 4x CN BCS, a PWNAGE TP, and all relevant +5% implants.)
Very nice, thanks. I'll take a look at it later. :)
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stoicfaux
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Posted - 2009.08.18 05:48:00 -
[16]
Updated to version 2.1. Now possible to manage as many missile profiles as desired while comparing any 4 at a time. (Check out the MissileProfiles sheet.) Added some maximized setups for Rage Torps and Tengu HAMs...
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Cpt Cosmic
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Posted - 2009.08.18 07:12:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Carniflex
Small correction. Defenders do lower your damage even with torpedoes regardless of defender being unable to take whole torp out in one hit. Defender mechaniks was changed a while ago and missiles nowdays do damage on hit propotoinal to their remaining hp.
you clearly dont understand the mechanic. I will give you a hint: -it affects only grouped missiles -GROUPED missiles do damage on hit propotoinal to their remaining hp but the calculation involves not to overall HP but HP per missile. it only lowers dmg of grouped missiles if the defender is able to deal enough dmg to destroy one missile of the grouped type, if the defender does not deal enough the grouped missiles still do full.
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.08.18 07:22:00 -
[18]
Interesting. Looking forward to take a look at it. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.08.18 07:57:00 -
[19]
I stand corrected as far as grouped missiles and defenders go. They indeed affect grouped missiles according to devblog.
However I see on regular basis NPC's I'm not shooting at launching defenders in missions. Or at least used to. I have been currently flying with missile effects disabled bcos that constant shaking can get irritating when under heavy fire in missions. So in my experience every NPC present has chance to launch defender when you shoot a missile.
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Cpt Cosmic
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Posted - 2009.08.18 08:03:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Carniflex I stand corrected as far as grouped missiles and defenders go. They indeed affect grouped missiles according to devblog.
However I see on regular basis NPC's I'm not shooting at launching defenders in missions. Or at least used to. I have been currently flying with missile effects disabled bcos that constant shaking can get irritating when under heavy fire in missions. So in my experience every NPC present has chance to launch defender when you shoot a missile.
funny I have never seen a defender coming out from a ship that I dont shoot
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stoicfaux
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Posted - 2009.08.18 12:06:00 -
[21]
Right, I've never seen other rat's defenders defend a fellow rat from missiles.
Reading the dev blog, it takes 4 defenders to kill a single torp. The real question is whether the chance to launch a defender is checked once per group, or once per missile in the group. If it is once per group, then rat defenders will never destroy a torpedo. If it is once per missile in the group, then there's a very, very, very small chance that a rat will launch 4 defenders at once and destroy a torpedo.
Next questions is whether a torpedo's damage will be reduced by a single defender hit. Ex: a single defender reduces a torpedo's health to 75%. Does that torpedo do 100% damage or 75% damage? Judging from the smart bomb comment ("If the smartbomb does more damage than the individual missile hitpoints, the whole stack is destroyed, otherwise nothing happens.") which seems to imply that partial damage doesn't count, I would lean towards a partially damaged torpedo doing full damage.
Either way, I haven't seen any dramatic damage reduction caused by NPC defenders, so I think it's a moot issue.
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Aalu Aullard
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Posted - 2009.08.18 16:12:00 -
[22]
Extremely nice sheet !
(Altho im no expert with these sheets) I think it has one flaw. We need to see volley damages, because it determines wether or not you need to spend 6-7 seconds more to fire another round at the rats. I added the volley damages to the sheet, i hope i did it correctly... (pics below)
Also, do you remember my CNR from the other topic? The one with 2x T2 Flares+T2 Rigor? It actually does outperform CNR with 2xT1 Rigors+T2Rigor. But only with very little 2-3 percentage...
Even if Golem deals more volley damage with faction torps than cruise CNR, its probably not enough to pop a cruiser rat, due the rats approacing velocity and range-diminishing painter bonus. So you most likely need to fire another round to pop them, and this is where CNR RoF bonus kicks in as the CNR Cruise missiles fire faster than Golems Siege launchers. Painter has around 40km optimal, so beyond that, the painter bonus diminishes and dips the scale for CNR favor.
(In the pics here: 4x CN BCU, Max skills and +5% hardwires) Corelatis Battlecruiser (Notes: CNR with 3 rigors has Fury missiles / 3TP faction torp Golem has 1k more volley damage but has limited range) Mercenary Commander (Notes: CNR with 3 rigors has Faction missiles / 3TP faction torp Golem has slightly higher volley. If cruiser doesnt pop with one volley, CNR outperforms due RoF)
Sure, the Golem with 3painters and faction torps deals massive damage against targets with orbit velocity. Other than that, CNR will win. Probably the Damsel is the only mission where group of battleships spawn right on top of you. But i bet that the more common missioning situation is where the Golem is firing Javelin Torps against approacing targets.
Its all comes down how the ships can apply their DPS output
1. CNR with T2Flares-T2Rigor performs 2% better than CNR with 3Rigors 2. Faction fit Torp CNR cant compete with either Golem or Cruise CNR because it has no explosion velocity nor TP bonuses. Only with 3TP its better than Cruise CNR against slow, orbiting battleship/battlecruiser targets. 3. Moment when Golem needs to load Javelins, it loses to CNR 4. Faction torp, 3TP Golem is the shortrange king, but if the rat has speed, then 2TP Cruise CNR is very close behind
Id say that my CNR with the 2xT2 Flares + T2Rigor is the suprise winner of the Speedking -title. Since it can most effectively deal its damage potential at all ranges and against all types of rats.
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stoicfaux
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Posted - 2009.09.27 18:54:00 -
[23]
New update. Added Volley Damage column. Re-organized existing missile profiles.
One day I'll get around to importing all of the NPC ship stats. Honest!
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stoicfaux
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Posted - 2009.09.28 03:25:00 -
[24]
New update! Now includes 3,000+ NPC ship stats and Volleys to Kill based on ship resistances.
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Liang Nuren
The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2009.09.28 03:40:00 -
[25]
Not to rag on your hard work (it's much appreciated), but spreadsheets are kinda meh. First you've gotta have some specific kind of spreadsheet application, then you've gotta transfer all the crap from Eve or a fitting app...
Have you considered turning this into a website or a javascript site or something?
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
ropnes
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Posted - 2009.10.12 20:35:00 -
[26]
This spreadsheet is awesome, I really appreciate your work, but I've come across a slight problem
See this image: http://i33.tinypic.com/14juqac.jpg
It takes 8.1 volleys with HML Kin and 7.9 with HML Exp, but in the percentage listing Kin comes out better (377.4% vs 302%). The ratio between the percentages is the same as the ratio between the volley damages, which do not appear to take resists into account.
It seems the spreadsheet is inconsistent when it comes to resists, which is a problem for the Nighthawk and Tengu which get specific damage type bonuses :-P
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stoicfaux
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Posted - 2009.10.13 03:56:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Have you considered turning this into a website or a javascript site or something?
Nope, no plans for a website/javascript since that would require hosting which costs $$. Plus with a spreadsheet, folks can tinker with it.
Originally by: ropnes This spreadsheet is awesome, I really appreciate your work, but I've come across a slight problem
See this image: http://i33.tinypic.com/14juqac.jpg
It takes 8.1 volleys with HML Kin and 7.9 with HML Exp, but in the percentage listing Kin comes out better (377.4% vs 302%). The ratio between the percentages is the same as the ratio between the volley damages, which do not appear to take resists into account.
It seems the spreadsheet is inconsistent when it comes to resists, which is a problem for the Nighthawk and Tengu which get specific damage type bonuses :-P
It's not a bug/inconsistency. It's a lack of transparency/explanation as to what's going on. The DPS and Volley Damage columns are based on the DPS after applying the missile formulas but target resistances are *not* being taken into account. The Volleys to Kill column does take target resistances into account. In other words, the the color code Q through T columns do not take target resistances into account. It causes confusion and is poor design.
I've completely revamped the the spreadsheet and should be posting the new one tomorrow. It has a more tabular/generic format, allows for hundreds of missile profile comparisons at once, selects the best damage type, supports 'kinetic only' missile profiles, and includes DPS/TTK rankings using Pivot Tables. I should have it posted some time tomorrow once I double check for errors.
Preview of the 4.0 Calculator- Wall of Numbers Preview of the 4.0 Calculator- DPS and TTK Rankings Not 100% sure that a Kinetic HAM Tengu really has the shortest TTK against a Gist Commander battleship...
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Nietzsche, and PvP" |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2009.10.13 04:11:00 -
[28]
Originally by: stoicfaux
Preview of the 4.0 Calculator- DPS and TTK Rankings Not 100% sure that a Kinetic HAM Tengu really has the shortest TTK against a Gist Commander battleship...
That's more than a little fishy tbh. It has: - Wrong damage type - Lower DPS - Lower volley (so it isn't a matter of volleying)
Doing the math, a Gist Commander has 19875 kinetic HP, which would imply that the HAM Tengu is dealing 1136 DPS to score the kill in that time - which it obviously isn't.
The Gist Commander has 16433 Explosive HP, which would imply (according to your chart here) that a Siege Golem should two volley it - yielding ~14 second TTK (where you have it on a 28 second TTK).
The only conclusion I can draw is that it's wrong.... don't have a good answer for how though.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
stoicfaux
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Posted - 2009.10.13 04:57:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: stoicfaux
Preview of the 4.0 Calculator- DPS and TTK Rankings Not 100% sure that a Kinetic HAM Tengu really has the shortest TTK against a Gist Commander battleship...
That's more than a little fishy tbh. It has: - Wrong damage type - Lower DPS - Lower volley (so it isn't a matter of volleying)
Tengu gets a 25% bonus to kinetic damage. Gist Commander has 40% explosive resist and 50% kinetic resist. 1/(1-.4) = 1.67 damage need to kill. 1/((1-.5)*1.25) = 1.6 damage needed to kill. So the Tengu actually does more damage with kinetic missiles than explosive in this case. OTOH, the DPS column isn't factoring in target resits.
Quote: Doing the math, a Gist Commander has 19875 kinetic HP, which would imply that the HAM Tengu is dealing 1136 DPS to score the kill in that time - which it obviously isn't.
It was a bug. I added a column and one of the sub-formulas become off by one and I hadn't copied the corrected formula to all rows. The Kinetic HAM Tengu is now 7th in TTK ranking, with a CNR Siege CN Ammo w/2 TPs in 6th and the Siege Golem in the 1-5 spots.
Quote: The Gist Commander has 16433 Explosive HP, which would imply (according to your chart here) that a Siege Golem should two volley it - yielding ~14 second TTK (where you have it on a 28 second TTK).
Good catch. Copying the updated subformula to the rest of the rows resulted in a 2 volley, 14s TTK.
Not to self: include resists in the DPS column (currently only TTK includes target resists.)
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Nietzsche, and PvP" |
stoicfaux
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Posted - 2009.10.14 23:39:00 -
[30]
Version 4.0 has been uploaded. The spreadsheet has been completely revamped. The biggest improvements are: * no longer limited to 4 missile setups to compare * Rankings Report: Filterable Pivot Tables list the best to worst setups in terms of DPS and TTK * TTK (time to kill) has been added
Check out the screenshots up top.
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Nietzsche, and PvP" |
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