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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.08.14 06:24:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 14/08/2009 06:25:48
Alright. We've all heard the old arguments. I don't think that anyone can, with a straight face, state that hisec missions are balanced as they are. Just look at the raw income potential compared to other hisec professions such as exploration and mining.
However, a flat out nerf in income has some issues as well. Missions provide a stable, good income for combat pilots which allows them to do other stuff (pewpew, buy fun toys, etc etc). More casual players may not like going to lowsec/0.0, where your income can be very erratic thanks to ship losses.
There are game lore problems as well. How the **** do pirate factions manage to setup entire bases and huge fleets in the secure space of a faction? It makes no damn sense how the Serpentis could send a fleet of 30 battleships right into Gallente space. On the contrary, it's quite possible for huge empire factions to launch sizable raids against others.
What if hisec missions were always given against other empire factions? Gallente missions would be, primarily, against Caldari State forces and vice versa. It would help display the backstory in normal gameplay. It would make more sense, and it would make the conflicts between the factions seem more real.
On the other hand, lowsec missions could continue to have you fight against pirate factions. Forceful pirate activities in less-controlled areas of space makes sense.
The general income level would stay the same. Perhaps to do this more NPC buy orders would need to be created for tags..Ideally, missionrunners would make about the same amount of cash fighting empire factions as they do now. Casual combat pilots can have the stable, safe income they desire.
However, hisec missions would finally have a downside...a downside severe enough to make other professions seem more attractive. Eventually, hisec missionrunning would gimp your standings towards other factions which would limit your mobility.
For this to work, however, the following changes should also be made:
1) Blowing up a faction ship shouldn't hurt your standings quite so much. With the current faction drop levels, even a few missions could send the other faction's standings down very low. Reduce the standing loss; it should take a fair amount of time before your standings get too low to to fly in the opposite faction's space.
2) There needs to be a way to get back from -5.0 standing. While it's usually a nonissue thanks to derived standing, you should always be able to (even if very difficult) get your standing back...people shouldn't be PERMANENTLY locked out of huge parts of the game world. There have been plenty of suggestions on how to implement this so I wont go into detail here.
In general, the idea is to provide a disincentive to hisec missions while not totally ****ing over those who rely on them. A very cool side effect is that it meshes VERY well with the backstory.
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Jint Hikaru
Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2009.08.14 08:10:00 -
[2]
All this looks like to me is a padded out way of saying -
Make mission runners go to lo-sec so my PVP boat can violence their PVE boat. ------------------------ Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager "I've got a couple of Strippers on my ship... and they just love to dance!" ------------------------ |
Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.08.14 16:19:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Jint Hikaru All this looks like to me is a padded out way of saying -
Make mission runners go to lo-sec so my PVP boat can violence their PVE boat.
Absolutely correct. Suddenly Ninjas is a feared lowsec PVP corp and we're just looking for more targets.
Anyone with reading comprehension skills care to comment?
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Fille Balle
Dissolution Of Eternity MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.08.14 18:45:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Fille Balle on 14/08/2009 18:45:03 Ok, but if NPC pirates shouldn't be able to enter highsec areas because of the lore, then why should player pirates be able to do so? Or should they also be banned from highsec?
And could you provide a link to a dev statement about highsec missions being unbalanced? Or provide some other evidence to support this statement?
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Joe Starbreaker
The Fighting Republicans
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Posted - 2009.08.14 18:58:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Jint Hikaru All this looks like to me is a padded out way of saying -
Make mission runners go to lo-sec so my PVP boat can violence their PVE boat.
To me this looks like a padded out way of saying "let's replace high-sec mission bounties with high-value tags that fit easily within the cargo hold of a ninja-salvaging Stabber"... but that's probably just me thinking too much...
Hehe, seriously though, I do like the idea. There should be some kind of a drawback to highsec L4 missions.
= the GOP is recruiting = |
Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.08.14 19:45:00 -
[6]
Quote:
Ok, but if NPC pirates shouldn't be able to enter highsec areas because of the lore, then why should player pirates be able to do so? Or should they also be banned from highsec?
Player pirates are chased. They have to keep moving to stay alive in hisec. An outlaw isn't going to, for example, anchor a POS.
Quote:
And could you provide a link to a dev statement about highsec missions being unbalanced? Or provide some other evidence to support this statement?
How much additional ISK do you make risking your ship for lowsec missions?
When you go into the newbie forums and someone asks about mining, why is it that people recommend they just run level 4s because it's far more profitable?
How much ISK can you make running hisec level 4s compared to mining or exploration?
Don't start.
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Karentaki
Gallente Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.08.14 22:12:00 -
[7]
This is a really nice idea, and I fully support it. Missions shouldn't be more profitable than 50% of 0.0.
Originally by: Fille Balle Edited by: Fille Balle on 14/08/2009 18:45:03 Ok, but if NPC pirates shouldn't be able to enter highsec areas because of the lore, then why should player pirates be able to do so? Or should they also be banned from highsec?
And could you provide a link to a dev statement about highsec missions being unbalanced? Or provide some other evidence to support this statement?
Please, get an alt, get a low sec status, and just try to get a battleship into highsec. Seriously, if you try to sit around for more than a few seconds you get webbed, scrammed, and promptly die. Hulks are getting ganked in highsec because they are stupid enough to sit in groups without any tank.
As for the evidence that missions are unbalanced:
They provide 40% of minerals (CCP statistic), completely destroying the profitability of most mining. Farming L4 missions can get more isk/hour than ratting in many areas of 0.0. Missions are the single greatest ISK faucet in the entire game (lowsec, 0.0 and wormholes included), and they are all accessibly in highsec.
Quote:
EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2009.08.15 00:57:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Mara Rinn on 15/08/2009 01:00:21
Originally by: Kahega Amielden How much additional ISK do you make risking your ship for lowsec missions?
Not enough to make the loss of a ship every time you undock worth the reward.
Quote: When you go into the newbie forums and someone asks about mining, why is it that people recommend they just run level 4s because it's far more profitable?
Because those people have no concept of the boredom induced by running level 4 missions as opposed to the keyboard freedom offered by mining or ice harvesting.
Quote: How much ISK can you make running hisec level 4s compared to mining or exploration?
How much ISK can you make in an officer-fit Golem when you're AFK for 15 minutes at a time?
Back to your original idea though: hisec is clear of NPC pirates to a large extent because someone is blowing them up. Guess who is doing that work? That's right, all those capsuleers running missions for the corporations who are trying to keep their space clear.
[Aussie players: join channel ANZAC] |
Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.08.15 02:35:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 15/08/2009 02:36:26
Quote: Not enough to make the loss of a ship every time you undock worth the reward.
Its' actually very easy to stay alive in lowsec unless you're just bad. Massive hyperbole fails.
Quote: Because those people have no concept of the boredom induced by running level 4 missions as opposed to the keyboard freedom offered by mining or ice harvesting.
And exploration?
Quote:
How much ISK can you make in an officer-fit Golem when you're AFK for 15 minutes at a time?
You can make far more AFKing missions with a domi than you can mining. Also, the cycle time of strip miners is 3 minutes, reduced heavily by skills as I recall correctly...and of course you need to warp back to station unless you have a second account. Missions hardly require more focus.
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Spud Mackenzie
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Posted - 2009.08.15 02:52:00 -
[10]
How about we get rid of Low Sec mechanics instead?
We could make EVE so all the players are "good guys" and all the rats are "bad guys".
And then no one can target and shoot anyone unless it were a rat.
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Fille Balle
Dissolution Of Eternity MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.08.15 10:35:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden Player pirates are chased. They have to keep moving to stay alive in hisec. An outlaw isn't going to, for example, anchor a POS.
Chased yes, but that does not mean thay don't have access, and there is no mechanic preventing them from doing so. Not doing something and not being able to do it is not the same thing.
Originally by: Kahega Amielden How much additional ISK do you make risking your ship for lowsec missions?
That relates to lowsec missions, and does not mean that highsec missions are unbalanced. I asked for a link from a dev stating this, and you have failed to provide it. Your opinion != the truth
Originally by: Kahega Amielden When you go into the newbie forums and someone asks about mining, why is it that people recommend they just run level 4s because it's far more profitable?
Because mininig is a dead end. Mining takes around 6months to max out all relevant skills. Besides, mining depends on market activity in order to make a profit. Has nothing to do with missions.
Originally by: Kahega Amielden How much ISK can you make running hisec level 4s compared to mining or exploration?
Exploration is far more profitable than level 4's. Why do you think all the plexes in highsec are being farmed to death all the time? Besides, WH exploration can net you a profit in excess of 100mil per hours. No matter which ship, or how good your skills are, will you ever be able to reap that sort of profit `from lvl4's.
Originally by: Kahega Amielden Don't start.
I can't, because you already did. I will however repeat myself in a different tone: proof or stfu!
Originally by: Karentaki They provide 40% of minerals (CCP statistic)
If you had bothered to actually read that statement, you would have noticed that it doesn't say "mission loot", in fact it says that you should be careful making that assumption. That list includes all the loot reprocessed in all of new eden.
If you think mission runners are the only people reprocessing loot, then I suggest you take a vacation and have a look at the drone regions. Try to guess how the individual pilots make isk there. (hint: drones don't have bounties)
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666Devious
Sinister Elite Raining Doom
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Posted - 2009.08.15 10:49:00 -
[12]
Why is the first idea always to nerf?
If you want more pew pew, why not a small boost to 0.0/low sec. Something as small as 5% increase to all ore amounts, rat bounties, drops, moon mins, plexes would encourage people to venture into more dangerous space to obtain more wealth.
Would also diminish returns for production in high sec. Now its not saying it would stop high sec production and invention but with more resources in 0.0 would make it even harder to compete.
This would also start more wars for richer space, and more people spending isk since it will be 5% easier to obtain. Would even have smaller corps/alliances banding together to obtain a small piece of the pie.
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Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2009.08.15 10:58:00 -
[13]
Originally by: 666Devious Why is the first idea always to nerf?
If you want more pew pew, why not a small boost to 0.0/low sec. Something as small as 5% increase to all ore amounts, rat bounties, drops, moon mins, plexes would encourage people to venture into more dangerous space to obtain more wealth.
Would also diminish returns for production in high sec. Now its not saying it would stop high sec production and invention but with more resources in 0.0 would make it even harder to compete.
This would also start more wars for richer space, and more people spending isk since it will be 5% easier to obtain. Would even have smaller corps/alliances banding together to obtain a small piece of the pie.
The problem then becomes rampant inflation. You can't just indiscriminately boost the profitability of any activity otherwise everyone starts doing, and therefore more money is pumped into the system. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!) |
666Devious
Sinister Elite Raining Doom
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Posted - 2009.08.15 11:05:00 -
[14]
the prices on items would come down due to the fact of more resources, moon mins and ore.
I dont know how u get inflation from that? Your isk would buy you more.
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King Rothgar
Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.08.15 11:41:00 -
[15]
Well fille, given that you're in my alliance and you know a fair number of pirates, you should know that we can't just fly around highsec and shoot at people easily. Hulks are one thing, haulers too but killing a BS is very different. His proposal makes good sense though I don't think it really gets to the core of the problem. It instead shifts the isk faucet from bounties to tags.
The main problem is balance. High sec missions pay too much compared to missions in low and null sec as well as most other professions. There are three ways to balance this, boost lower sec rewards, decrease higher sec rewards or place limits on how many missions can be run. Limiting the number of missions is a bad method as it leaves people with nothing to do. So that leaves the other two options.
Also, you greatly overestimate the ease of making a profit in w-space. I know for a fact you've only been there a few times as I'm the one who took you out there. I know how much isk was made and what the skill level of the people involved was. You greatly exaggerate the ease and the reward.
Also, for all those out there, low sec isn't that dangerous. But it does force you to play smart. Gone afk on a gate for 5 minutes? Yeah, you won't be there when you come back. But you can plex and run missions just fine if you turn your brain on and have a little paranoia. I ran 5 plexes today in 0.2 sec with 1-8 reds in local. Didn't have a problem. In fact, I ran them in a myrmidon that costs 20M isk to lose and I made around 40-50M isk off the plexes over the course of an hour or two. I also ran a few lvl4 missions out there after the plexes were depleted. -----------------------------------------------------
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ropnes
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Posted - 2009.08.15 11:55:00 -
[16]
Edited by: ropnes on 15/08/2009 11:56:25 You actually make a lot more money risking your ship in low-sec and 0.0 Level 5 missions have ridiculous LP payouts, and plexes can give you some really nice stuff too. I do level 5s because they give me a lot more money than level 4s. Low-sec is not that dangerous anyway, 0.0 is much worse
I think OP's suggestions were good though
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.08.15 14:56:00 -
[17]
Quote: I dont know how u get inflation from that? Your isk would buy you more.
Alright, lets say you boosted EVERYTHING and somehow made the increase in minerals equal to the increase in ISK.
You'd need to boost it by WAY more than 5% given that hisec is almost perfectly safe whereas lowsec is very dangerous. You should be making double or more in lowsec than you do in hisec. Then, suddenly, everything's incredibly easy to acquire, and nothing is expensive any more because it's just so easy to rake in ri****ulous piles of cash.
Quote: You actually make a lot more money risking your ship in low-sec and 0.0 Level 5 missions have ridiculous LP payouts, and plexes can give you some really nice stuff too. I do level 5s because they give me a lot more money than level 4s. Low-sec is not that dangerous anyway, 0.0 is much worse
0.0 -is- much worse, but the difference between hisec and lowsec is far more pronounced.
And, per person, level 5s aren't much better than level 4s...and they're actually worse unless you have an alt or multiple people.
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666Devious
Sinister Elite Raining Doom
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Posted - 2009.08.15 18:49:00 -
[18]
You dont need a large boost to be effective, first off u do make more as it is in 0.0 then u do in high sec. The problem is the risk vs. reward. 5% is more then ample. You increase 0.0 too much high sec would have zero value. Thats not what we want, just a balance.
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