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Jade Terse
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.08.10 22:00:00 -
[1]
The current trend in the sell order forums as can be seen from the front page is a rash of lotteries. I think its about time for a bit of a discussion if this is because the community enjoys these to such a degree or because of the monster size profit margins.
My point I'm bringing forth is exactly where do these lotteries cease being legit and become scams?
This lottery in particular with around 3.6 bill in prizes and a little over 2 bill in profit is what made me stop and think for a moment.
Yeah for 130 mill I have a 1 in 9 chance of a large return on my investment, but I can't help to think even though I enjoy the gamble and fun in winning.. this is just to much ISK to pad the providers wallet with.
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Estel Arador
Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services
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Posted - 2009.08.10 22:22:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Estel Arador on 10/08/2009 22:22:14 Lotteries are often referred to as a 'tax on the stupid'. If you don't like it (and/or if you're not stupid), don't participate.
It's certainly not a scam (if the prizes are paid out) since you know beforehand what the total payments will be compared to the total prizes.
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Seraph Castillon
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.08.10 22:27:00 -
[3]
Get in on it while the margins are still good
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Rotnac
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.10 23:02:00 -
[4]
Its only a scam when there is information withheld. Assuming they do pay out, there is almost always full disclosure of probabilities of winning, and so they aren't a scam. Might be stupid to participate, but not a scam.
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Daeva Vios
New Eden Credit Bureau
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Posted - 2009.08.11 00:07:00 -
[5]
I have two close friends I've known for years. These two people have masters degrees in their respective fields. They are both the supervisors of their respective departments and each make around $100k a year.
By my judgment and that of my peers who have met them, they are incredibly bright and capable people.
They buy lottery tickets. One buys them once a month, the other twice a month.
I asked them why they do this, since both of them are very well aware that they have a greater chance of being struck by lightning...ten times.
The answer was simple: It's fun.
So long as the lottery pays out, there's no scam. ------------------------------------- NECB |
cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
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Posted - 2009.08.11 02:36:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Daeva Vios I have two close friends I've known for years. These two people have masters degrees in their respective fields. They are both the supervisors of their respective departments and each make around $100k a year.
By my judgment and that of my peers who have met them, they are incredibly bright and capable people.
They buy lottery tickets. One buys them once a month, the other twice a month.
I asked them why they do this, since both of them are very well aware that they have a greater chance of being struck by lightning...ten times.
The answer was simple: It's fun.
So long as the lottery pays out, there's no scam.
But in RL, winningis a complete game changer. Instant retirement!
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Brock Nelson
Caldari Flux Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2009.08.11 03:03:00 -
[7]
Originally by: cosmoray
Originally by: Daeva Vios I have two close friends I've known for years. These two people have masters degrees in their respective fields. They are both the supervisors of their respective departments and each make around $100k a year.
By my judgment and that of my peers who have met them, they are incredibly bright and capable people.
They buy lottery tickets. One buys them once a month, the other twice a month.
I asked them why they do this, since both of them are very well aware that they have a greater chance of being struck by lightning...ten times.
The answer was simple: It's fun.
So long as the lottery pays out, there's no scam.
But in RL, winningis a complete game changer. Instant retirement!
My Dad got a pretty sweet retirement and severance package offer from the company that he got laid off from. Basically he was paid for 3 or something years; so he decided to do a early retirement and took the deal. After a few months of not doing much but play golf, he was bored as hell. So, I hooked him up with a job that I had in college as a courier and he never looked back.
So, basically; even if you win millions and decide to retire, you never really retire because you're gonna end up bored either way.
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Daeva Vios
New Eden Credit Bureau
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Posted - 2009.08.11 03:13:00 -
[8]
Originally by: cosmoray
Originally by: Daeva Vios I have two close friends I've known for years. These two people have masters degrees in their respective fields. They are both the supervisors of their respective departments and each make around $100k a year.
By my judgment and that of my peers who have met them, they are incredibly bright and capable people.
They buy lottery tickets. One buys them once a month, the other twice a month.
I asked them why they do this, since both of them are very well aware that they have a greater chance of being struck by lightning...ten times.
The answer was simple: It's fun.
So long as the lottery pays out, there's no scam.
But in RL, winningis a complete game changer. Instant retirement!
I'm not sure I could retire permanently. I get bored when I have a three day weekend...
I think I would really enjoy being able to decide when I work. Then again, the chances of one winning the lottery are considerably lower when one does not play. ------------------------------------- NECB |
Ta'jek
Angels Of Death EVE Free Worlds Alliance
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Posted - 2009.08.11 12:32:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Daeva Vios
So long as the lottery pays out, there's no scam.
Provided it pays out to someone other then the alt of the lottery holder or a friend. As for the concern about the profit margins being made by them, Is it a scam if someone sells an item for more then they bought it?
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oil
University of Caille
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Posted - 2009.08.11 13:08:00 -
[10]
as there is no independet way to veryfy which numbers get drawn i assume that most of them are scams. bagging the money and the prices if at all go to alts.
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Yarinor
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Posted - 2009.08.11 13:14:00 -
[11]
Originally by: oil as there is no independet way to veryfy which numbers get drawn i assume that most of them are scams. bagging the money and the prices if at all go to alts.
There are plenty of ways.
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Syaran
Gallente IMPERIAL SENATE Cool Kids Club
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Posted - 2009.08.11 13:15:00 -
[12]
Originally by: oil as there is no independet way to veryfy which numbers get drawn i assume that most of them are scams. bagging the money and the prices if at all go to alts.
This is not entirely correct. Many lotteries have reputable 3rd parties doing the drawing and prize handling, so little chance for a scam there...and there are a fair number of websites in use where the numbers can be drawn live, so you can look in when the numbers are drawn.
In the end it all boils down to what people have said before, as long as you keep your wits about you, it's a nice way to have some fun, just avoid the ones that reek of scam.
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flakeys
Distillery Lazy is our middle name
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Posted - 2009.08.11 14:09:00 -
[13]
I seen this comment so much and to be honest i hate it.
What they earn from it is their own choice and if others are willing to take the gamble let them.
As long as they don't run away with all the isk i could not care less if they have a 200% profit.It is called doing good business.
Question is are they stupid asking for a too high profit or are others too stupid for not taking a pick of the profits by organizing this themselves.
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Vhiskey
Caldari Imperial Forces
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Posted - 2009.08.11 16:04:00 -
[14]
how do you proof that its not always an alt of the lottery organizer winning the top price?
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Gabriel Rosencrantz
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Posted - 2009.08.11 16:12:00 -
[15]
Just because a lottery pays out does not mean that it isn't a scam.
As the biggest lotteries say on their main pages, they can't (or won't) prove that their method for drawing a winner is completely honest; therefore you trust them or you don't. Generally speaking, I've learned not to trust anything in EVE that seems to be too good to be true. Does that mean they ARE scams? No. But there is no way to prove they aren't.
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.08.11 16:13:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Syaran
Originally by: oil as there is no independet way to veryfy which numbers get drawn i assume that most of them are scams. bagging the money and the prices if at all go to alts.
This is not entirely correct. Many lotteries have reputable 3rd parties doing the drawing and prize handling, so little chance for a scam there...and there are a fair number of websites in use where the numbers can be drawn live, so you can look in when the numbers are drawn.
In the end it all boils down to what people have said before, as long as you keep your wits about you, it's a nice way to have some fun, just avoid the ones that reek of scam.
I would imagine most of the lotteries if not all would follow the same suite that a numbers racket does. You pick a verifiable third source for your numbers, and example would be the numbers racketeering in new york where the last three digits of the published US Treasury would be used.
Does CCP have a policy regarding use of actual lottery numbers? |
flakeys
Distillery Lazy is our middle name
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Posted - 2009.08.11 16:58:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Gabriel Rosencrantz Just because a lottery pays out does not mean that it isn't a scam.
As the biggest lotteries say on their main pages, they can't (or won't) prove that their method for drawing a winner is completely honest; therefore you trust them or you don't. Generally speaking, I've learned not to trust anything in EVE that seems to be too good to be true. Does that mean they ARE scams? No. But there is no way to prove they aren't.
Agreed BUT the point of the OP is that the profit they are gaining from it is worth calling a scam NOT the method being used to obtain the winner from said lottery.
I agree fully on the point that they can easily be scamtastic unless you use a 3rd party that is VERRY well known , and even then....
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Iridescent Moon
Caldari Iridescent Dawn
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Posted - 2009.08.11 17:54:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Does CCP have a policy regarding use of actual lottery numbers?
While I have not seen any lately in the past I have seen people use RL lotter numbers.
As an example, have a 52 slot freighter lottery and then have then next California State Lottery bonus number be the draw number. With the lottery date set as the first lottery draw after all of the slots are filled.
The Ships of Eve lottery as well as many other of the larger ones have had FX and Chribbia as the third party making the drawn and handing out the prizes.
The BIG lottery has operated at a loss a number of times. That is why fixed date draws are rare.
As to the "lotterys are a tax on the stupid" idea.
A lottery gives the chance to dream. I was kept busy at times thinking about what to do with 215 ships in Eve after buying some SoE lottery tickets for the last draw. It was entertaining and kept my mind occupied while I was board at work. Is there an expectiation of winning? Not really but, you can hope. Same goes for a lottery in RL.
An added bonus, unless it's a scam, is that someone does win. You can get a small warm and fuzzy knowing someone else got the payday and did so because you were a participant. Sure, you would rather have won yourself but, at least someone did.
Finally, everything is a tax on the stupid. If you buy a Porsche your a moron. There are few places where you can use one as it is designed to be used. In the end you pay a high price to do the same thing you can with a cheaper car, get from point A to point B. People choose to buy a Porsche because it make them happy, not because it is a smart thing to do. It is same with lottery tickets.
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Daeva Vios
New Eden Credit Bureau
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Posted - 2009.08.11 18:07:00 -
[19]
I'll go a bit further...
If you are not squeezing every available isk out of the enterprise, whatever it might be, you are not doing anyone any favors and you're doing yourself an active disservice.
People will do what they want to do. If you're not squeezing them, someone else will do so gladly. You know your own motives and morals, you do not know theirs.
Better the devil you know. ------------------------------------- NECB |
F90OEX
F9X Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.08.11 18:16:00 -
[20]
From the lottery linked, and the person running it Beast necromancer, from my dealings with him he's a trusted trader and a respected one too.
There is no question that he runs his lottery's to make Isk, after all he is a trader. But what most people don't seem to understand, it takes a lot of time and work to run a lottery. There not the "I WIN" profit making business people think they are. Like anything else he has costs, Chribba is for one and I'm sure he has others. So IMO I don't think its anywhere near the 2bil the OP is making it to be.
Last thing to mention is most people who play lotterys are not stupid if there chances are not good and it looks like the odds of winning are just not there.
They will not play, its a simple as that .. Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels. Zymurgist |
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Dzil
Caldari Frosted Pancakes
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Posted - 2009.08.11 18:57:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Jade Terse The current trend in the sell order forums as can be seen from the front page is a rash of lotteries. I think its about time for a bit of a discussion if this is because the community enjoys these to such a degree or because of the monster size profit margins.
My point I'm bringing forth is exactly where do these lotteries cease being legit and become scams?
This lottery in particular with around 3.6 bill in prizes and a little over 2 bill in profit is what made me stop and think for a moment.
Yeah for 130 mill I have a 1 in 9 chance of a large return on my investment, but I can't help to think even though I enjoy the gamble and fun in winning.. this is just to much ISK to pad the providers wallet with.
That's not a scam, it's a gouge. That you can sit here and post your odds of winning against your cost indicates the lottery manager is being completely forthright with the information.
Most folks don't run a lottery just for the hell of it. They run them to "sell" an otherwise expensive/slow moving item, to make money, or to win some reputation (think radio stations). I agree earning a 50% + take on the lottery is pretty high, and don't participate in such lotteries as a result, however, that's really no different than most state run lotteries in the US.
Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m |
Karanth
Gallente Independent Fleet Dark Taboo
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Posted - 2009.08.12 08:40:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Karanth on 12/08/2009 08:42:11
Originally by: Jade Terse The current trend in the sell order forums as can be seen from the front page is a rash of lotteries. I think its about time for a bit of a discussion if this is because the community enjoys these to such a degree or because of the monster size profit margins.
My point I'm bringing forth is exactly where do these lotteries cease being legit and become scams?
This lottery in particular with around 3.6 bill in prizes and a little over 2 bill in profit is what made me stop and think for a moment.
Yeah for 130 mill I have a 1 in 9 chance of a large return on my investment, but I can't help to think even though I enjoy the gamble and fun in winning.. this is just to much ISK to pad the providers wallet with.
I wouldn't give this lottery even a second look, simply due to the price to get in on it. Anything past 20mil, I wouldn't really touch simply due to the price I'm willing to throw away on a lottery.
Now, if the buy-in was say 13mil and there were 10x more tickets I might buy a ticket, and spend a bit less on other junk, leaving aside the fact the draw method precludes that.
The only people I'd really trust to run a good-sized lottery with the draw itself concealed would be CCP itself or Chribba. Any small 100k buy-ins it don't really matter, but for something substantial I'd want either CCP involved or Chribba.
EDIT: Just wanted to say the method I like the most for drawing is where people use end of trading stock market numbers. Not for any really rational reason, but I figure if you can manipulate it enough to sway an Eve lottery why are you doing that instead of making RL money on the stock market? Plus it seems cool to me so there.
Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans
Sorry, no. You have to go into wormholes and get farmed by the new AI NPCs like everyone else...
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