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Materia Hunter	Posted - 2009.08.09 12:38:00 - [1] I am thinking about training myself up for a freighter, I'm not really much of a PvP person. Excluding wardecs, is it feasible to gank a freighter in highsec?....what about on AP? Thanks
Yelan Zhou Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.09 12:51:00 - [2] It depends where you fly of course.It can happen but it will not happen often if that answers your question.Taking down a freighter in highsec needs alot of firepower but can be accomplished by a dedicated force.
gfldex	Posted - 2009.08.09 13:27:00 - [3] You need about 190 thrashers or 60 BS to pop a freighter in high sec. That's with tec 2 fittings. So take it x 1.4 with tec 1.
Yarinor	Posted - 2009.08.09 13:37:00 - [4] just dont fly directly between major tradehubs with more than 5-600m cargo
Joe Starbreaker The Fighting Republicans	Posted - 2009.08.09 15:54:00 - [5] Originally by: gfldex You need about 190 thrashers or 60 BS to pop a freighter in high sec. That's with tec 2 fittings. So take it x 1.4 with tec 1. Are those numbers accurate? Sixty battleships? In a 0.5? = the GOP is recruiting =
Memphis Baas	Posted - 2009.08.09 18:09:00 - [6] 20 battleships, and considering insurance payouts, if you carry more than 600 million ISK it's profitable.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.08.09 20:02:00 - [7] Originally by: Memphis Baas 20 battleships, and considering insurance payouts, if you carry more than 600 million ISK it's profitable. Except that you can't really organize a blasterboat camp and expect the freighter to get in optimal blaster range, so probably you'll want ravens for the range... and after you start shooting and the system starts to stutter both client and server-side some of your guys might not activate their weapons on time... and if you were using Ravens, expect the possibility of missing one of your "expected" volleys due to various circumstances (on average, don't count on more than 3 volleys out of ANYTHING, and maybe 4 out of sentry drones, but that's "it"). So, no, 20 BSs, not really advisable. Try 30 or more just to be on the safe side. And that's preferably with faction ammo. Then, let's ASSUME that you could do it with 20 BSs for the sake of argument. Let's also assume you only lose on average, say, just 5 mil for the ship and 10 mil for the fittings, which is a pretty low-ball estimate. And still assume that the cargo is separated in enough roughly-equal valued separate pieces, and just about half of them get destroyed, so about half of the cargo survives (which, again, is a pretty generous assumption). THE ISK-WISE BREAK-EVEN POINT would then be 600 mil ISK. 600 mil ISK wouldn't be the point where "it's profitable" to gank that freighter. Considering the time spent guarding the gate in such a large group, and any scouts used (you wouldn't just gank the first freighter, would you?) and the time they WILL HAVE to spent recovering their lost security status, the pilots will want a reasonable certainty that the loot drops will be well worth their time. So... let's say, they will want to assume that only one quarter of the value survives, and they want to make at least, say, 80 mil out of it, if not more... and let's bump up the actual losses to around 20 mil ISK on ship plus fittings... and make that 30 people... wait, what do you know, it suddendly became 12 bil worth of cargo before it's worth trying to gank a freighter. I don;t know about you, but between 12 bil and 0.6 bil, that's a huge difference. I would seriously not worry for anything under 5 bil ISK in cargo, especially if you're carrying a SINGLE stack of something... then you might as well carry 50 bil, even then I doubt anybody would even think of risking a gank on you. EVE issues\|Mining revamp\|Build stuff\|Make ISK
Agent Known Apotheosis of Virtue	Posted - 2009.08.09 20:09:00 - [8] Or, just carry one freight container with all your stuff in it. 50/50 chance it goes boom and the gankers are out lots of money.
DRACULA IRL	Posted - 2009.08.09 20:12:00 - [9] Originally by: Akita T Complete Gibberish You need about 15 Geddons with heat in a 0.5 system. Don't use Ravens for this, what the christ. People shoot for 20 because it's a safer number and there's always some moron who didn't train for amarr BS or is AFK once you get a nice freighter autopiloting towards you, but that's a bit of overkill. I've seen it done with as low as 13 battleships. Feel free to believe this crap though More targets.
Riken Vorkovin Caldari The Black Legionnares Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2009.08.09 20:13:00 - [10] Edited by: Riken Vorkovin on 09/08/2009 20:15:06 Never fly a freighter without escort, even in high-sec! Even if there are no ganker camps or fleet around, you may have a spy in your corp or alliance just waiting for a juicy freighter.

Rotnac Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.09 21:02:00 - [11] Originally by: DRACULA IRL You need about 15 Geddons with heat in a 0.5 system. Don't use Ravens for this, what the christ. People shoot for 20 because it's a safer number and there's always some moron who didn't train for amarr BS or is AFK once you get a nice freighter autopiloting towards you, but that's a bit of overkill. I've seen it done with as low as 13 battleships. Feel free to believe this crap though More targets. This man actually knows something. 15-20 BS will take one down, and is a good gang size. And indeed, depending on exact setup, the freighter only needs something like 600-1000mil in the hold for this to be worthwhile. Even in highsec, freighters are very vulnerable.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.08.09 21:32:00 - [12] Edited by: Akita T on 09/08/2009 21:32:30 I am tempted to get 1 bil worth of goods AND a freighter and just SIT at a gate in Jita to have you test that hypothesis. For added insult to injury, I'd name it "GankMe4FreeStuff". EVE issues\|Mining revamp\|Build stuff\|Make ISK
Vhiskey Caldari Imperial Forces	Posted - 2009.08.09 22:29:00 - [13] Linkage
Memphis Baas	Posted - 2009.08.09 23:54:00 - [14] Originally by: Akita T Then, let's ASSUME [...] Let's also assume[...] And still assume [...] So... let's say, they will want to assume [...] [etc] Nice emo-argument there with made-up numbers, but honestly, what's better for the guy? To feel safe that he'll never be attacked cause it takes 30-60 battleships and 12 billion in profit? Or to feel paranoid that 20 and 0.6 is enough? You tell me what's better in today's high-sec environment.
Rotnac Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.10 00:33:00 - [15] Originally by: Memphis Baas Originally by: Akita T Then, let's ASSUME [...] Let's also assume[...] And still assume [...] So... let's say, they will want to assume [...] [etc] Nice emo-argument there with made-up numbers, but honestly, what's better for the guy? To feel safe that he'll never be attacked cause it takes 30-60 battleships and 12 billion in profit? Or to feel paranoid that 20 and 0.6 is enough? You tell me what's better in today's high-sec environment. And since people are dumb, I'll emphasize: be paranoid.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.08.10 01:34:00 - [16] Originally by: Memphis Baas Nice emo-argument there with made-up numbers, but honestly, what's better for the guy? To feel safe that he'll never be attacked cause it takes 30-60 battleships and 12 billion in profit? Or to feel paranoid that 20 and 0.6 is enough? You tell me what's better in today's high-sec environment. The less they are afraid, the more often they die, the sweeter the tears, and the wilder the markets swing. I'll vote "let them get ganked" EVE issues\|Mining revamp\|Build stuff\|Make ISK
Materia Hunter	Posted - 2009.08.11 10:28:00 - [17] Wow, looks like I started something Just a quick thank you to all that replied.
Tranka Verrane Angelic Industries	Posted - 2009.08.11 11:14:00 - [18] Originally by: Akita T Yes, if you want to be as safe as possible, as in "they'd have to be crazy or have a grudge on me to try and gank me", then do keep your freighter cargo below 600 mil. Whilst I appreciate and largely agree with you, Akita, never underestimate the craziness of the pirate. They live for the gank, not the isk. I think many would consider even less than the break even point to be worthwhile, and some wouldn't even check.
Kessiaan Minmatar DEATHFUNK Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.08.11 11:53:00 - [19] You have to remember T1 ship hulls cost almost nothing after insurance and they'll recover 50% of the mods + salvage, so the numbers needed to gank a freighter are a lot lower than you'd think. If you're carrying more than about 600 million or so don't autopilot, avoid the big trade hub, have an alt scout you, fly to a planet and logoff for 30-40 minutes if you think you're being shadowed, keep track of who is at the gates and what corp / alliance they're from, watch local like a hawk, always scout the Jita undock before actually undocking, drop to NPC corp if you're at war until you're done hauling or leave highsec, etc. Keep in mind you probably won't be able to tell when you get spotted with a big haul - the guys who cargo scan you will likely have passive targeters fit.
Xila Julian	Posted - 2009.08.11 12:42:00 - [20] Sorry I ask. I'm a noob, so forgive my ignorance. But how can you destroy something as a Freighter in high-sec before Concord intercepts and turn you vessel to dust? It has quite an amount of HP, and besides if you could destroy it, how can it possible be worth it?

Crackzilla The Shadow Order	Posted - 2009.08.11 14:32:00 - [21] Originally by: Xila Julian But how can you destroy something as a Freighter in high-sec before Concord intercepts and turn you vessel to dust? It has quite an amount of HP, and besides if you could destroy it, how can it possible be worth it? Not all space is created equal. A .5 system has slower concord reponse than a .9. So a gang of bs might have 15 seconds (guessing). Then its a matter of numbers. (Alpha damage + (15 seconds * dps)) * ~20 bs. Most of the hp is in struct (no resists). So its about finishing off the freighter before concord finishes you. Then we're back to numbers. A t1 suicide setup is fairly cheap with insurance. If 1 bil from freighter drops and thats split 20 ways thats 50 mil per participant. That'll probably cover any loses. Freighters can carry a lot more than 1bil and so the potential payout can be much higher.
Xila Julian	Posted - 2009.08.11 15:38:00 - [22] Originally by: Crackzilla Originally by: Xila Julian But how can you destroy something as a Freighter in high-sec before Concord intercepts and turn you vessel to dust? It has quite an amount of HP, and besides if you could destroy it, how can it possible be worth it? Not all space is created equal. A .5 system has slower concord reponse than a .9. So a gang of bs might have 15 seconds (guessing). Then its a matter of numbers. (Alpha damage + (15 seconds * dps)) * ~20 bs. Most of the hp is in struct (no resists). So its about finishing off the freighter before concord finishes you. Then we're back to numbers. A t1 suicide setup is fairly cheap with insurance. If 1 bil from freighter drops and thats split 20 ways thats 50 mil per participant. That'll probably cover any loses. Freighters can carry a lot more than 1bil and so the potential payout can be much higher. Awww, I see. Ty for reply. I was considering buying a Freighter anytime soon to start some serious trading. Does this happen often? If so, I might have to reconsider :-)
Tau Cabalander Caldari	Posted - 2009.08.11 16:04:00 - [23] Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 11/08/2009 16:04:23 Originally by: Xila Julian I was considering buying a Freighter anytime soon to start some serious trading. Does this happen often? If so, I might have to reconsider :-) Anytime you come to a gate covered in CONCORD, it was likely a freighter gank. Came across this one just the other day. With about 6 billion in cargo, I can't help but wonder if there was a gate scout or other escort party, and if the pilot was AFK.
Jake Bronson	Posted - 2009.08.11 16:33:00 - [24] Sorry, but new to the game (had the game about 5 days now). Am I to understand that ganking a freighter will result in the annialation of the attacking forces, buy NPC guard ships? And after the battle is over, you have someone standing by to "pick up the loot"? hehehe. Is that what this game is all about? LOL
Xila Julian	Posted - 2009.08.11 16:43:00 - [25] Say I fly a Freighter manually all the time. Never AFK it in open space. There is a risk for everything, but how low would it exactly be in reality if I fly manually and never afk in open space?
Tau Cabalander Caldari	Posted - 2009.08.11 17:49:00 - [26] Originally by: Xila Julian Say I fly a Freighter manually all the time. Never AFK it in open space. There is a risk for everything, but how low would it exactly be in reality if I fly manually and never afk in open space? "Open space"? as opposed to ... ? If somone wants to gank you, they will. That aside, if you AFK jump, it takes nearly 3 minutes for a freighter to reach gate-jump distance (2.5 km) after warping in to 15 km. This is when most freighter ganks happen: when approaching a gate. It gives the gank squad a lot of time to setup and get into position. Plus it takes about 40 sec to accelerate to warp on the other side, which can be reduced by about 2/3 by using a forward same-corp scout with a webifier. Once the freighter has reached 75% of webbed speed (depends on the webifier used), web the freighter and it instantly warps. If it is really valuable, take multiple trips, or use the corporate hangar of an Orca as it cannot be scanned. If it is small enough, a blockade runner is ideal; they can't scan or attack what they can't see. I own an Orca, Crane and Charon. They all have their uses.
Xila Julian	Posted - 2009.08.11 18:02:00 - [27] Originally by: Tau Cabalander Originally by: Xila Julian Say I fly a Freighter manually all the time. Never AFK it in open space. There is a risk for everything, but how low would it exactly be in reality if I fly manually and never afk in open space? "Open space"? as opposed to ... ? If somone wants to gank you, they will. That aside, if you AFK jump, it takes nearly 3 minutes for a freighter to reach gate-jump distance (2.5 km) after warping in to 15 km. This is when most freighter ganks happen: when approaching a gate. It gives the gank squad a lot of time to setup and get into position. Plus it takes about 40 sec to accelerate to warp on the other side, which can be reduced by about 2/3 by using a forward same-corp scout with a webifier. Once the freighter has reached 75% of webbed speed (depends on the webifier used), web the freighter and it instantly warps. If it is really valuable, take multiple trips, or use the corporate hangar of an Orca as it cannot be scanned. If it is small enough, a blockade runner is ideal; they can't scan or attack what they can't see. I own an Orca, Crane and Charon. They all have their uses. Open Space as in AFK outside station, jump gate etc., Not afk as: Warping to gate, jump instant, warp to next etc.
Crackzilla The Shadow Order	Posted - 2009.08.11 18:56:00 - [28] Edited by: Crackzilla on 11/08/2009 18:57:57 Originally by: Jake Bronson Am I to understand that ganking a freighter will result in the annialation of the attacking forces, buy NPC guard ships? Yes. Concord doesn't provide protection. They provide consquences. The attacking forces will die but if they live long enough to accomplish their task then it doesn't matter. Originally by: Jake Bronson And after the battle is over, you have someone standing by to "pick up the loot"? Yes. Friendly freighter. Friendly alt neutral haulers are also fairly common. Then the rush from anyone else that smells fresh meat on the ground. Originally by: Xila Julian Open Space as in AFK outside station, jump gate etc., Not afk as: Warping to gate, jump instant, warp to next etc. I wouldn't say ganks are all that common to begin with. They work because someone becomes used to hauling lots of isk worth of stuff around and gets lazy. You can minimize the chances by having a support gang along. A small gang can move a few freighters fairly quickly by helping the freighters get into warp asap. A few logistics can ruin the gank. I had a hauler ganked once even flying manual. So it doesn't reduce all risk. So keep the value hauled to a reasonable level. In the end someone might gank you merely because they don't like you.
Zaxix Red Frog Investments	Posted - 2009.08.11 21:28:00 - [29] At Red Frog Freight, we have a 1 billion isk collateral limit for hisec delivery. Roughly speaking, the point of profit for gankers comes around 2 billion. But that's not much profit. However, nothing will stop a thrill kill gank, because profit isn't the object. Most of the time, gankers are in it for the money and they want to make the most they can for their investment plus the lost sec status. BTW: It only takes about 10 to 12 BS to pop a freighter. If you'd like to watch gankers in action, hang out in Niarja, Uedama, or the adjacent systems. If you fly regularly through those systems, I advise you do it ATK (at-the-keyboard) and not on autopilot, esp. if you go over the 1 billion isk cargo limit. If you go over 2 billion, you are taking a major risk. Freighter pilots looking to move that kind of expensive load should hire escorts, the serious, professional kind. Cause those pirates are very organized.
Vinsurith Morteth Minmatar	Posted - 2009.08.12 16:07:00 - [30] I've seen suicide gankings of freighter/hauler pilots in highsec. I'm a carebear but I'm not stupid. You're never 100% safe anywhere in EVE.



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