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Tanja Cyprus
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Posted - 2009.08.03 13:11:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Atreus Tac .....
Lasers are a much more complete weapon because their tracking is too good for their range (scorch im looking at). Their damage/optimal ratio is way better that blasters. They dish out better damage types and web nerf/speed nerf has hurt balster more than any other ship. ....
Woah ... nerf missiles!!!
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Too Dangerous
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Posted - 2009.08.03 13:16:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Atreus Tac Hmmmm...no
Quote: Lasers have to bank on the fact that your tracking is junk for your optimal
There tracking is (as you would put it) VERY good in ratio to their optimal.
Quote: The only problem is that this raw mathematical approach never happens when solo in "real EVE"
good for their range.
So your are saying that in eve lasers are better because eve isnt played on paper?
Quote: If you don't like that, then fly amarr
Ahh so now you are saying that to have more success in 1v1 train amarr.
Okay this arguement seems flawed.
Quote: Otherwise, get a covops warpin, and a friend to web him, and in small gang fights with a good warp-in, gallente ALWAYS will win.
or you can get 2 other people in two other battle ships because 3vs1 is better.
Let me get this straight. What you are trying to say is blasters are fine if you have 2 other people to help you fight 1 ship. But in true 1v1 in eve amarr are way better and to be good train amarr.
you sir are STUPID. This arguement is flawed in every way.
Lasers are a much more complete weapon because their tracking is too good for their range (scorch im looking at). Their damage/optimal ratio is way better that blasters. They dish out better damage types and web nerf/speed nerf has hurt balster more than any other ship.
This tbh.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.08.03 13:22:00 -
[33]
Originally by: AstroPhobic There are no 1v1s.
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Al Anders
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Posted - 2009.08.03 14:06:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Al Anders on 03/08/2009 14:13:01 As far as i think larger AC's need a bit better optimmal + falloff escalation or better damage. Blaster need that apparently too. following calculations based on unskilled (according to range) turrets T1M4 best according to "powergreed" use. Lets look:
Large beams (tachs)(min 26+20 MF) and large pulses (megas)(MAX 36+8 scorch) overlap perfectly.
AC(800) (min 4.8+37 barrage = 41.8 km for 50%) and arty(1400) (24+35 EMP) overlap poorly (but enought good)
blasters(neu) (9+13 Null = 22 km for 50%) and railguns(450) (29+24 EMP) do not overlap entirely. It has a 6 km gap inbetween weapon optimal ranges, and if we're remind that railguns have a poor tracking - their optimal at 29 km - looks like a joke.
So what's needed.AC's must gat affirmative clipsize to be called AC's and ROF at least as pulses (lack of accuracy due to falloff will be compensated by hail of slugs) Blasters are fine as close combat weapon but looks like large blasters apparently need falloff boost. 22 km for 50% hit it's a pity. And their just 20% over pulse DPS. According to their fallof and accuracy their tend to be in niche between AC's (huge fallof, low opt) and lasors (huge opt, low falloff.)
So T2 LR ammo best blastas (neuts with null) must looks like a roughly 0.9*(5+36)/2 = 18 km optimal and 0.9*(38+10)/2 = 24 falloff. That would give them play in the pulse + AC league in PvP and PvE. And AC's must be damage boosted of better ROF+clipsize boosted for fill their role of the "Guy who fills space with a bullets"
That my own opinion. Don't blame me please.
That text not about what is suck. That about the fact that hybrids have a lack of viability and have a deadzone where no railguns nor blaster have no use.
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Zal Dakkar
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Posted - 2009.08.03 14:20:00 -
[35]
Originally by: James Lyrus I remain of the opinion that one of the biggest problems with blasters is the stoic insistence that only antimatter is ever worth using.
If blasters do not use antimatter then they are no longer the highest dps turret and still have inferior range. Null can be useful, but it is no where near as good as scorch - particularly when one considers that lasers can change out ammo near instaneously.
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Thercon Jair
Minmatar Nex Exercitus Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.08.03 17:56:00 -
[36]
Someone mentioned Rails have awful tracking.
Let's see.. 0.009625 rad/sec for 425mm T2 Rails, 0.009 rad/sec for 1400mm T2 Arties. Oh, minnies have worse tracking. And then you get to stick those on a ship with a tracking bonus.
One of the problems is also that there are modules affecting optimal range, while they don't affect falloff, yet there's ewar modules that can kill your falloff. So you're stuck with optimal range extending modules on a ship with poor optimal and high falloff. Quite clearly those modules will affect turrets with high optimal and poor falloff more. I can see myself using tracking enhancers to extend my falloff range on ACs, to get more damage on range, while not increasing my base DPS (if they did modify falloff range).
Even that would scale poorly against more optimal, but it were certainly a step to bring the two a bit closer together. Real men do it the hard way: fly Minmatar! |
Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2009.08.03 17:58:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Bibbleibble on 03/08/2009 17:58:05
Originally by: Thercon Jair Someone mentioned Rails have awful tracking.
Let's see.. 0.009625 rad/sec for 425mm T2 Rails, 0.009 rad/sec for 1400mm T2 Arties. Oh, minnies have worse tracking. And then you get to stick those on a ship with a tracking bonus.
One of the problems is also that there are modules affecting optimal range, while they don't affect falloff, yet there's ewar modules that can kill your falloff. So you're stuck with optimal range extending modules on a ship with poor optimal and high falloff. Quite clearly those modules will affect turrets with high optimal and poor falloff more. I can see myself using tracking enhancers to extend my falloff range on ACs, to get more damage on range, while not increasing my base DPS (if they did modify falloff range).
Even that would scale poorly against more optimal, but it were certainly a step to bring the two a bit closer together.
CCP have already said that they don't want to introduce falloff effecting things because of the Vagabond.
I know. It really does make little sense.
Here's the quote I've based this on:
Originally by: CCP Zulupark Artillery: Having scripts for falloff would be pretty cool for the tempest specifically but when you think about how it could affect Vagabonds with AC's I start getting a little scared. All ships don't have to be completely uniform and have the same ranges, that would be boring. Having said that however we need to look into this.
________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!) |
Ronin Reborn
Wrath of Fenris
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Posted - 2009.08.03 19:40:00 -
[38]
Yeah that's just Zulupark though. He also thinks the tempest is awesome.
I dont think having falloff increasing tracking mods would help blasters. Hype could fit 1-2. Mega doesn't have room for it in a standard fit, while the Deimos and Astarte have thier mids spoken for. Giving the Deimos more pg, or adjusting the stats on the rigs so they take less, would actually make a ambits + nuetrons + null fit pretty workable. But thats on a falloff bonused ship with falloff bonused ammo...
The problem for acs is complete lack of scaling. Ambits help a bit. Blasters recieve no note worthy help from either optimal or falloff increasing mods/rigs/implants.
Really though blasters aren't *that* bad. They're good gank and gtfo weapons. Theyre good on fast ships, ie taranis and thorax hull. They're good for station games and when you have a warp in. They're decent at camping non-regional gates. But they were never meant to be a 'always works' weapons system. They scale terribly as gang size increases and gangs today are larger, due in part to TQ being more populated.
Really, Minmitar are far more justified saying thier turrets suck compared to Gallente. At least we do damage.
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Wardeneo
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.08.03 20:17:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Wardeneo on 03/08/2009 20:22:34
Originally by: Allahs Warrior I dont think you guys understand what it means to have HIGHEST DPS. Highest DPS in the game means that if you're hitting them 1v1 (since we've been comparing 1v1 setups), and you've got similar tanks, you win.
lol EFT Noob, just coz u have highest dps and simlar tanks dont mean S.H.I.T the problem with blasters is they only do kin/therm damage (the same for amarr but EM/Therm) and if there tank is got good kin/therm resists then u have C**P dps, thats the good thing about min/caldari, u can change dmge type for best affect,
i think u need to pvp more then 2 sit EFT quoting 2bh, ive flown most races on various characters, and i know in pvp the ability 2 change dmge types is very usefull, and in a lot of cases has helped me win 1v1's,
Originally by: Allahs Warrior Doesn't matter what race, what kind of guns, whether they have drones or not, whether they have active or passive tank, or whatever. You win. In small gangs, where you can web them effectively *and therefore actually hit them*, you win, every time.
biggest loads of bollucks ive herd in ages, my slep beat an astarte the other day 1 v 1, he had a web/ i didnt and both have good tanks both were active both had drones but i cud swap out to therm dmge (which happened to be his lowest resist) and i won
Originally by: Allahs Warrior Lasers have to bank on the fact that your tracking is junk for your optimal otherwise they lose EVERY TIME you get in range (which gallente will outrun amarr with higher battleship base speed).
tracking is not junk, it only junk at blaster range (close range) (lasers work better at medium-long range) and u dont lose every time, a corp m8s zealot killed a diemos last month 1 v 1 and zealot was webbed at 500M from diemos, and bs base speed dont mean S.H.I.T, coz it depends on the mods applied to the loadout how much mass the bs has got etc.
2bh i cant be bothered to comment on the rest of ur post, ive got bored of ur "un-accurate" discusion after the 2nd paragraph, -morale of the story is go pvp instead of eft/basic stat whoring!
as to the blasters are fine argument, i actually dont care, everything in eve seems 2 suck, the only difference is that persons "OPPINION", and 2bh blasters are ok the problem lies with the ships are normally speced in them (mega, diemos etc)and the worst problem is the noob pilots that fly them wrong, i have seen allmost all ships in pvp and the all do well in there own way, just depends on the loadout and whos flying them...
-wardeneo-
P.S FLAME ON
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Yakov Draken
Minmatar Tides Of War
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Posted - 2009.08.03 21:19:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Wardeneo lol EFT Noob, just coz u have highest dps and simlar tanks dont mean S.H.I.T the problem with blasters is they only do kin/therm damage (the same for amarr but EM/Therm) and if there tank is got good kin/therm resists then u have C**P dps, thats the good thing about min/caldari, u can change dmge type for best affect,
i think u need to pvp more then 2 sit EFT quoting 2bh,
I do heaps of pvp in a highly efficient pvp corp and I think you are talking crap. Doing a thermal/kinetic mix is fine and combined with explosive dealing drones you end up with a nice mix. Sure being able to switch damage types is nice but it is not as important as you imply.
Blasters rock so long as you are capable of dictating your range of combat and considering gates bring us together up close it is not that hard. For low sec BS combat using blasters is not hard at all and null is pretty sweet.
There comes a time when you just have to say it like it is: All this whinging about blasters, while they remain one of the dominant weapon types in actual pvp, is pathetic. We encounter, and use, blaster fit BS all the time and we encounter them in the hands of the good corps. So what is this about? Are you guys all to afraid to fight up close - is that the issue? Is all the blaster whine really about pilots who haven't got what it takes to get in close and brawl so they pretend it is not viable?
When I see Ravens, Maelstroms, Rokhs, in an opposing low sec gang I smile and know our chances of winning just went up. You guys are whinging about the wrong things.
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Trader Jjenna
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Posted - 2009.08.04 00:39:00 -
[41]
^^ This really.
Between my alts, I fly almost every ship in the game save Raven's.
I used to be a nano-all day long ganker. Prior to the nano nerf my two favorite speed boats were the vagabond (Shock) and guess what - a speed thorax. I still like them both although these days I have added HM Cerb and Beam Sniper Zel to my list of favorites.
Most PvP I am in is either some big fleet engagement or is at a gate. When something jumps into you or vice versa, you lock something down and the blaster boat gets there just fine.
The web nerf also plays both ways. Yes its harded to lock down targets with a web, but frankly before the nano/web nerf I would hop in my rapier and kill a blaster boat way more easily because my one rapier could stop it DEAD in its tracks. Now - how many rapiers you see?
I won't complain if you get the range on blaster boats buffed a bit - I'll just fly the mb/c they will be OP.
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Asuka Smith
Gallente StarHunt
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Posted - 2009.08.04 01:18:00 -
[42]
As someone who flies a Deimos with great success despite the stigma surrounding the ship, let me say that blasters are better on a quick gank type assault in small gangs. However, those sorts of engagements are far less common in most of 0.0/low-sec. Lasers excel in the fleet environment, and thus they are kings of the roost at the moment due to the current tactical situation.
However that could change with sovereignty updates (winter perhaps?).
Let me conclude by saying that while I do not regret my training in blasters by any means, if I could have my time again I would be an Amarr character at this moment.
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Kismo
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Posted - 2009.08.04 01:21:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Asuka Smith Let me conclude by saying that while I do not regret my training in blasters by any means, if I could have my time again I would be an Amarr character at this moment.
We all would.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.08.04 06:34:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Kismo
Originally by: Asuka Smith Let me conclude by saying that while I do not regret my training in blasters by any means, if I could have my time again I would be an Amarr character at this moment.
We all would.
Don't worry. I finish T2 energy turrets in a week, and amarr BS 5 comes next. So the clock is ticking, and in about a month, they'll be nerfed.
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AstroPhobic
Divine Retribution
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Posted - 2009.08.04 16:40:00 -
[45]
Originally by: James Lyrus
Originally by: Kismo
Originally by: Asuka Smith Let me conclude by saying that while I do not regret my training in blasters by any means, if I could have my time again I would be an Amarr character at this moment.
We all would.
Don't worry. I finish T2 energy turrets in a week, and amarr BS 5 comes next. So the clock is ticking, and in about a month, they'll be nerfed.
I anticipated the lack-of-ner***e and started training right after the resistance change. Huzzah!
The question is though, who will CCP boost next? They won't nerf amarr, and I'm guessing it won't be minmatar. Will it be the blaster whines that cause them to cave? I'm betting that blasters are next in line for wtfbbqpwnsauce.
Torps 5 finished this morning... time to start on large hybrids 5 for my phoon.
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Kismo
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Posted - 2009.08.04 16:50:00 -
[46]
Originally by: AstroPhobic I anticipated the lack-of-ner***e and started training right after the resistance change. Huzzah!
The question is though, who will CCP boost next? They won't nerf amarr, and I'm guessing it won't be minmatar. Will it be the blaster whines that cause them to cave? I'm betting that blasters are next in line for wtfbbqpwnsauce.
Torps 5 finished this morning... time to start on large hybrids 5 for my phoon.
If you recall, I have long said that blasters would be fixed before projectiles. ;-)
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Nito Musashi
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Posted - 2009.08.04 16:59:00 -
[47]
since ACs have been sucking since the dawn of eve, or just about. they should get some luvin next, then they can move onto blasters with a tad bit of dps boost or a fix for tracking overall.
hell here is a novel idea tho give all races different damage type ammos, why 2 races get them and 2 get the shaft? are the techies and scientists too st00pid to say oh if we only had some exp/kin ammo or some em/therm ammo to make fighting other race ships that have their tank in those areas....seems the military in eve is about as cleaver as a drunken ccp dev ad a cosplay party.
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Zal Dakkar
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Posted - 2009.08.04 17:15:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Asuka Smith As someone who flies a Deimos with great success despite the stigma surrounding the ship...
LOL. Let me guess, you have a frig tackle a lone BS and you warp in and rip it a new one? That's about all it can do.
Pulses are far superior in nearly every situation. And even in situations where a blaster boat is superior (low sec station/gate BS fighting, warp in at 0, small gang vs lone BS) a pulse boat would still do decently well in comparison.
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Ansuru Starlancer
UK1 Zero
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Posted - 2009.08.04 22:50:00 -
[49]
Originally by: AstroPhobic
I anticipated the lack-of-ner***e and started training right after the resistance change. Huzzah!
The question is though, who will CCP boost next? They won't nerf amarr, and I'm guessing it won't be minmatar. Will it be the blaster whines that cause them to cave? I'm betting that blasters are next in line for wtfbbqpwnsauce.
Torps 5 finished this morning... time to start on large hybrids 5 for my phoon.
I hope you're right. Blasters've always been my favorite, I just can't use them very often anymore. It'd be ironic to have the new FOTM be something I already trained for instead of something I have no desire to bother training :p
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.08.04 22:58:00 -
[50]
Originally by: James Lyrus
Originally by: Kismo
Originally by: Asuka Smith Let me conclude by saying that while I do not regret my training in blasters by any means, if I could have my time again I would be an Amarr character at this moment.
We all would.
Don't worry. I finish T2 energy turrets in a week, and amarr BS 5 comes next. So the clock is ticking, and in about a month, they'll be nerfed.
Nah, Amarr won't be nerfed because the entire fotm revolves around scorch and aurora. Now what I do see is minmatar getting a boost to thier bs line which should hopefully make then just as mean if not meaner than the amarr lineup at long range and short ranges and so balance the allies out.
Originally by: Zaqar Anyway, you don't have to be Einstein to play Eve - a quick glance over the forums will tell you that -
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