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Musashi Takahora
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.07.20 05:14:00 -
[1]
Im curious, is this customary behaviour amongst builders?
I mean that they sell stuff for below mineral-value that is?
This aint some newbie-builder selling his/hers first thorax Im talking about, no its freighter-builders.
It takes a serious investment after all to get a freight-building-operation going, that would imply that the ppl making that investment has some kind of business-sense = ability to earn isk. = amass wealth so that they can get all those bpos and that first mineral-stock.
Obelisk goes for below mineral-value currently, Charon goes for 10 million in profit/ship.
This is with current inflated Jita-price on minerals, but they have been inflated for some weeks now, so surely it should affect the end-product of the most conservative of builders at this stage?
I can only come up with 2 explanations:
A. Builders cant afford to stock up freighters = need to sell them to keep the product-line going.
If this is the case they should sooner or later when they realise that they make no profit hopefully stop the building.
Unless its some corp-project with tick firewalls between buyers, builders and sellers...
B. They buy their minerals with buy-orders far from Jita and thus make a profit as traders and confuse that with a profit for building and selling freighters = why bother building the freighters with the cheaper minerals when they can be sold quickly in Jita for profit?
Can some experienced market-person explain this for me?
Is there hope, or is the best thing to do simply to sell those damn freighter(and component)-bpos and invest the isk elsewhere?
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James Tundra
Gallente
Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
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Posted - 2009.07.20 05:27:00 -
[2]
I trade a number of ships, and I have absolutely no clue what their reprocessing value is because I'm a while away from 100% Reprocessing.
Four things are happening.
1. Some of them acquired the minerals when they were cheaper, and are still building at a profit based on the old mineral prices.
2. Others are finding cheaper sources for minerals and continuing production.
3. Traders are the lowest sellers, they bought when they were cheaper and selling them at a profit from where they bought them.
4. They are idiots and don't check mineral prices before they buy them.
Quote:
skilzrulz > SencneS, you have ZERO clue who I am, and what I have done for the EVE community.
skilzrulz > RICDIC SCAMMED ME
skilzrulz > James, why you poor and I rich
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.20 07:57:00 -
[3]
Sometime selling a complete ship is faster than selling the minerals. And every successful builder buy minerals through buy orders.
So it depend on how fast you can sell and use the isk again selling the ship against selling the minerals.
If selling the ship allow you to move the tons of isogen you have in hours while the isogen sell order will sit untouched for days it can be convenient to sell the ship.
BTW: remember that the sell orders you see in Jita are those that haven't jet sold. So the mineral selling value is some decimal lower than the lowest open sell order you see.
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Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2009.07.20 09:31:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 20/07/2009 09:35:31
I mine my minerals rather than buy them, so my manufacturing costs are 0.
<mandatory comment explaining I'm not serious, merely voicing why people sell below-mineral cost>
Specifically towards the freighter market though,,, I imagine that because freighters take "an amount of time" to manufacture from minerals right through to final product, and that it's harder to move the components than it is to move the final product, that indeed, if the price fluctuates up "a bit" of the minerals, it'll go largely unobserved.
Certainly, in the T2 component market, when material price spikes occured and hit, resulting in a spike in my actual component sale price (sometimes in the order of 10000 ISK), I'd sell for below the *current* manufacturing price because all I was interested in was ensuring I hit the profit margins I aimed to hit. I'd still raise my prices, but they'd still be below the manufacturing cost.
This only happened when the spike occured during manufacturing though.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.07.20 10:48:00 -
[5]
Once the cost of a ship goes either below 70% of base price or perfect reprocessing mineral BUY ORDER price (remember sales tax though)... somebody will step in and correct the "issue" almost instantly... for a profit, of course 
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Musashi Takahora
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.07.20 12:12:00 -
[6]
Im talking freighters, takes more then a week to build including modules, and mineral-compression would only be 2-1 for minerals, minerals you can move afk in high-sec anyway.
Seems odd to use them to move cheap minerals to Jita unless you move those minerals in their cargoholds 
And further on if you get the minerals cheaper from buy-orders thats a profit you make as a trader, not as a builder, so why throw that profit away by building a ship and sell it below its market-value in minerals?!
The lowest sell-price in Jita is market-price since the difference to buy-orders are so tiny that any ordinary builder would hardly notice it in his profits, it would no doubt go away totally unless he had perfect trading-skills + standing.
Im just a bit surprised how willing ppl are to go from ~100 million in profit/ship(reasonable considering mega-billion-investment) to selling them at a loss.
ahh well, will quit whining I guess 
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Ariane VoxDei
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Posted - 2009.07.20 12:23:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Ariane VoxDei on 20/07/2009 12:25:53
Originally by: Musashi Takahora
This is with current inflated Jita-price on minerals, but they have been inflated for some weeks now, so surely it should affect the end-product of the most conservative of builders at this stage?
Your primary mistake, it is here.
They are a guideline, nothing more.
As Akita T pointed out for your education, BUY orders decide (the price floor).
Add to that, that not all are perfectly market aware and just think more about getting a sale, on minerals they have sourced cheaply (or even think that they have obtained at no cost).
Since this is MD, you should not even be having any concerns about this, since it is just another trade opportunity.
It would only be fitting to have this worry in SI (science and industry).
edit: fixed low coffee error
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.07.20 12:30:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Akita T
Once the cost of a ship goes either below 70% of base price or perfect reprocessing mineral BUY ORDER price (remember sales tax though)... somebody will step in and correct the "issue" almost instantly... for a profit, of course
This |
Sophie Daigneau
CAPITAL Assistance in Destruction Society
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.07.20 13:16:00 -
[9]
In my little section of Eve I'm competing against a bunch of other capital contracts priced at or very near mineral cost. If someone wants to buy those up and reprocess or relist at a more reasonable profit margin I'd much appreciate it. I'd do it myself but I don't have that kind of liquid isk sitting around.
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.07.20 13:25:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Sophie Daigneau
In my little section of Eve I'm competing against a bunch of other capital contracts priced at or very near mineral cost. If someone wants to buy those up and reprocess or relist at a more reasonable profit margin I'd much appreciate it. I'd do it myself but I don't have that kind of liquid isk sitting around.
If you're listing on market, just ignore the contracts market. Some sucker will over pay for your item.. even a capital ship.
If you are competing on the contract market, just give it some patience and or sell in a different section of space. The lazy rule applies just as much to the captial pilot as the mission runner looking for a new battleship. |
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cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
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Posted - 2009.07.20 14:55:00 -
[11]
I think one of the problems is that some people will have bought their minerals weeks ago (before price correction), and are selling cap components (best example) at the same price. They don't realise /choose not to realise that they could just ship the minerals back to Jita for the same profit.
The high sec cap market at present is completely out of whack.
Freighters and Orcas have a current profit margin of max 10M ISK.
Half the cap components are selling under build cost (not quite at reprocessing).
I have frozen production to see which way market pricing goes.
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gfldex
Kabelkopp
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Posted - 2009.07.20 15:09:00 -
[12]
Edited by: gfldex on 20/07/2009 15:13:55
Originally by: Musashi Takahora
Can some experienced market-person explain this for me?
Is there hope, or is the best thing to do simply to sell those damn freighter(and component)-bpos and invest the isk elsewhere?
Go to Jita and check the price history for Mexallon. Prices are going up much quicker then Capital builder can produce.
EDIT: linky
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KaarBaak
Minmatar
Squirrel Team
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Posted - 2009.07.20 15:32:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Originally by: Akita T
Once the cost of a ship goes either below 70% of base price or perfect reprocessing mineral BUY ORDER price (remember sales tax though)... somebody will step in and correct the "issue" almost instantly... for a profit, of course
This
This! I'm one of those that grinds up those ships and resells the minerals. I don't shed one tear shredding a ship that has never been flown.
KB
Beware the beast Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport or lust or greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. |
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