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SomeHardLovin
Furious Intentions
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Posted - 2009.07.14 16:03:00 -
[1]
Edited by: SomeHardLovin on 14/07/2009 16:06:12
So i'm thinking about killing small ships. Assault Frigates mostly.
What can I do to make sure i'm hitting those little guys when flying say.. a cruiser sized ship? What affects whether I hit or not? So far I have the following in my head:
1. The weapon: I will want to use Light weaponry such as Light Missiles and Small guns. But which light weaponry is best?
a) Missiles : There are Assault Missiles and there are Standard Missiles. Does one do a better job against small targets and why?
What is the metric in its item decription that shows this?
Does it matter what kind of launcher I choose (T1, T2, Faction) when it comes to "to hit" ratios?
b) Turrets : There are short range and long range turret catagories for each type. I assume the long range turrets are TERRIBLY bad at tracking, even the small ones, so for frigate work that might be a mistake?
When it comes to short range turrets such as blasters, pulse lasers, and autocannons.. is one better at tracking than another?
Does ammo have any effect.. should I use T2 or faction?
Does it matter if I choose T1, T2 or Faction weapons?
2. The ship: Some ships have tracking bonuses such as Destroyers. Are these bonuses enough to let me use long range guns and still hit small signature sized ships?
Is there anything else about a ship that dictates tracking other than bonuses?
3. The modules: I get that if he has a tight orbit around me I will have trouble tracking .. this is where a webifier comes in handy. Do any other tracking modules work on cruiser sized ships? Do I really need them?
4. The tactics: My guess is that its best to engage a small ship at about 10km where he can be webbed and at least warp disrupted. Many AF's today however load afterburners so they only move at about 1500ms... maybe I don't really NEED a webber.
Any suggestions on tactics for fighting frigates? ---
"Some say the best weapon is the weapon you never have to fire. I say.. the best weapon is the weapon you only have to fire once!" |
Intigo
Amarr Endemic Aggression Exalted.
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Posted - 2009.07.14 16:13:00 -
[2]
___________________
ENEMA, much love. <3 |
SomeHardLovin
Furious Intentions
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Posted - 2009.07.14 16:17:00 -
[3]
Yes well ok good point.. energy neuts are good.. but very short range considering they would need to be medium or small. ---
Bring forth the Assault Frigate apocalypse! |
Intigo
Amarr Endemic Aggression Exalted.
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Posted - 2009.07.14 16:23:00 -
[4]
Originally by: SomeHardLovin Yes well ok good point.. energy neuts are good.. but very short range considering they would need to be medium or small.
12km range on the mediums is not very short, almost all AFs are fitted for close range fighting (hence the issue of them getting under your tracking).
You can't lose to any AF if you simply fit a decent buffer tank, 1-2 neuts + small guns and atleast 5 Warrior 2s with good skills. The AF will be demolished, the only one that stands a slight chance is perhaps the Wolf / Jaguar with a really amazing pilot (even then, just get on top of him and scoop your drones instantly if he attacks them).
It's not rocket science. ___________________
ENEMA, much love. <3 |
rodensteiner
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.07.14 16:26:00 -
[5]
Destroyer would work well. The tracking bonus they get, plus the already good tracking on small turrets, plus a pretty good volley because you have 8 turrets makes for a very good anti-frigate platform.
Coercer does decent damage and has flexibility in range, but you better kill your target quick before they run. Coercer has one midslot, and I usually use mine for AB or MWD.
Thrasher seems to work very well with AC's. Zoom in, blast frigate to bits, zoom out.
A Thorax, Vexor, or a Maller with small turrets works well against frigates, especially since you can fit a 1600mm plate in them once fitted with small guns. In this case, zoom in with MWD, scram and web frigate, and kill them. In my Maller, I took down a Wolf while being hit by a stealth bomber (have the loss mail to prove it )
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SomeHardLovin
Furious Intentions
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Posted - 2009.07.14 16:26:00 -
[6]
Everything in this game seems to be some kind of science :) ---
Bring forth the Assault Frigate apocalypse! |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.14 16:33:00 -
[7]
AML caracal > all small ships
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Intigo
Amarr Endemic Aggression Exalted.
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Posted - 2009.07.14 16:41:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Furb Killer AML caracal > all small ships
That is true for the most part, but a pimped out AF with an active tank could beat it and win regardless. Neuts + drones is a far safer option, as it will also completely demolish all the pimped AF setups. ___________________
ENEMA, much love. <3 |
swatyy
Amarr Gunship Diplomacy
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Posted - 2009.07.14 17:19:00 -
[9]
Theory-craft suggests that small guns are the ideal anti-frig weapons. In reality, there are a few problems:
1. Fly anything larger than a frigate and you usually can't dictate range or lock a ship that intends to run. 2. If 1. applies, you have to be able to reach out to 24km and land hits. 3. Enemy frigates rarely fly alone.
If these assumptions are true, a battery of medium guns on a tracking enhanced, target painting rig is probably the better bet. I'd argue that the BC is the best anti-frig platform in FW because it packs a punch, fits a tank that can survive a swarm, and most can field Warrior IIs with backups in reserve. |
Vidi Angelus
Caldari Crystal Dynamics Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2009.07.14 17:30:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Intigo
Originally by: Furb Killer AML caracal > all small ships
That is true for the most part, but a pimped out AF with an active tank could beat it and win regardless. Neuts + drones is a far safer option, as it will also completely demolish all the pimped AF setups.
Got an example at hand? AML Caracal does 170 DPS, & 17K Tank with Web, 20+ without, I'm interested to see what AF it needs to fear.
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SomeHardLovin
Furious Intentions
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Posted - 2009.07.14 17:36:00 -
[11]
Wow thats creepy.. you're avatar is like my long lost twin.
Sorry.. carry on :) ---
Bring forth the Assault Frigate apocalypse! |
Intigo
Amarr Endemic Aggression Exalted.
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Posted - 2009.07.14 17:49:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Vidi Angelus
Originally by: Intigo
Originally by: Furb Killer AML caracal > all small ships
That is true for the most part, but a pimped out AF with an active tank could beat it and win regardless. Neuts + drones is a far safer option, as it will also completely demolish all the pimped AF setups.
Got an example at hand? AML Caracal does 170 DPS, & 17K Tank with Web, 20+ without, I'm interested to see what AF it needs to fear.
Dual SAR Vengeance, pimped Jaguar - even more so after the patch that introduces cheaper T2 rigs for small ships, then AFs can get insane stats. Retribution could probably do it too, as the Caracal wouldn't really worry about keeping range so you wouldn't need a speed mod.
Yes, these are in the "extremes", I'm just saying a Neut + Drone approach by a good pilot will beat any AF whereas an AML Caracal can still lose. ___________________
ENEMA, much love. <3 |
Empress Aurora
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Posted - 2009.07.14 18:02:00 -
[13]
Munin tracking and damage bonus ftw
.22 tracking with 5 220mm autocannon will hit a moth in the eye at high radial and transversal, and never miss.
Or, fit with 5 720 Howitzers and a sensor booster and Alpha frigates from 100km
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Speartan
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Posted - 2009.07.15 11:34:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Empress Aurora Munin tracking and damage bonus ftw
.22 tracking with 5 220mm autocannon will hit a moth in the eye at high radial and transversal, and never miss.
Or, fit with 5 720 Howitzers and a sensor booster and Alpha frigates from 100km
Unwebbed frigate on ab will orbit around 0.4. It is also 2.5 times harder to hit than cruiser. You would have hard time hitting frigate unless you neuted/webbed it and got a few km range atleast.
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Sera Ryskin
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Posted - 2009.07.15 11:48:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Speartan Unwebbed frigate on ab will orbit around 0.4. It is also 2.5 times harder to hit than cruiser. You would have hard time hitting frigate unless you neuted/webbed it and got a few km range atleast.
The assumption is that an AB frigate will do anything but die helplessly against a cruiser. In reality, the cruiser activates its MWD (getting much better speed than the AF), hits the "keep at 20km" button, transversal drops to zero, and the AF dies in seconds. ==========
Merin is currently enjoying a 14 day vacation from the forums. Until she returns, you've got me to entertain you!
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SomeHardLovin
Furious Intentions
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Posted - 2009.07.15 14:42:00 -
[16]
Anyone care to comment on ammo & gun/missile types for me? I know there are nuances there I probably don't know about yet..
1. The weapon: I will want to use Light weaponry such as Light Missiles and Small guns. But which light weaponry is best?
a) Missiles : There are Assault Missiles and there are Standard Missiles. Does one do a better job against small targets and why?
What is the metric in its item decription that shows this?
Does it matter what kind of launcher I choose (T1, T2, Faction) when it comes to "to hit" ratios?
b) Turrets : There are short range and long range turret catagories for each type. I assume the long range turrets are TERRIBLY bad at tracking, even the small ones, so for frigate work that might be a mistake?
When it comes to short range turrets such as blasters, pulse lasers, and autocannons.. is one better at tracking than another?
Does ammo have any effect.. should I use T2 or faction?
Does it matter if I choose T1, T2 or Faction weapons? ---
Bring forth the Assault Frigate apocalypse! |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.07.15 19:19:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Intigo
Originally by: Furb Killer AML caracal > all small ships
That is true for the most part, but a pimped out AF with an active tank could beat it and win regardless. Neuts + drones is a far safer option, as it will also completely demolish all the pimped AF setups.
Fear my EFT Warrior-y!
[Hawk, lolz] Internal Force Field Array I Ballistic Control System II
Gistii B-Type 1MN Afterburner Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Pithi A-Type Small Shield Booster Dread Guristas Magnetic Scattering Amplifier
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thorn Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thorn Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thorn Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thorn Rocket Corpii C-Type Small Nosferatu
Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II Anti-Explosive Screen Reinforcer II
Strong blue pill and full crystals. Perma-running 426 DPS tank (356 on weakest resist).
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.07.15 19:22:00 -
[18]
Originally by: SomeHardLovin Anyone care to comment on ammo & gun/missile types for me? I know there are nuances there I probably don't know about yet..
1. The weapon: I will want to use Light weaponry such as Light Missiles and Small guns. But which light weaponry is best?
a) Missiles : There are Assault Missiles and there are Standard Missiles. Does one do a better job against small targets and why?
What is the metric in its item decription that shows this?
Does it matter what kind of launcher I choose (T1, T2, Faction) when it comes to "to hit" ratios?
a) There's no such thing as a Standard Missile. Assault Missiles are not a good choice, being medium-sized weapons. Metrics are explosion velocity, explosion radius, damage, Damage Reduction Factor, flight time, velocity, rate of fire. Launcher type does not affect your "to hit" ratio.
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destinationunreachable
Hello Kitty Fanclub
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Posted - 2009.07.15 20:54:00 -
[19]
Edited by: destinationunreachable on 15/07/2009 20:56:33 a Harbinger with small T2 pulses does surprisingly well in overall dps as it gets bonuses on all laser sizes... Fit 7 T2 pulses, med neut, web, mwd and you have the perfect AF killer...
edit: something like this
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2009.07.15 23:24:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 15/07/2009 23:24:13 When trying to kill small ships in big ships, keep in mind your relative tracking will increase as the distance to the target increases.
So, pack a neut to force them to maintain distance, and you can hit them fine.
For example, a medium AC will not be able to hit a frigate orbiting at 1k, but if the frigate is at 15km you will have very decent tracking. A medium neut has just the perfect range to force them to stay at 15km.
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steveid
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2009.07.16 00:00:00 -
[21]
buy a harbinger, fit a full rack of pulses with 1 medium neut, lows have 3 heat sinks and 2 tracking enhancers and you will rip af's a new one in around 5 vollys or 15 seconds.
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BigBobbom
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Posted - 2009.07.16 08:23:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Intigo
Originally by: Vidi Angelus
Originally by: Intigo
Originally by: Furb Killer AML caracal > all small ships
That is true for the most part, but a pimped out AF with an active tank could beat it and win regardless. Neuts + drones is a far safer option, as it will also completely demolish all the pimped AF setups.
Got an example at hand? AML Caracal does 170 DPS, & 17K Tank with Web, 20+ without, I'm interested to see what AF it needs to fear.
Dual SAR Vengeance, pimped Jaguar - even more so after the patch that introduces cheaper T2 rigs for small ships, then AFs can get insane stats. Retribution could probably do it too, as the Caracal wouldn't really worry about keeping range so you wouldn't need a speed mod.
Yes, these are in the "extremes", I'm just saying a Neut + Drone approach by a good pilot will beat any AF whereas an AML Caracal can still lose.
Neut + Drones (all lvl5 dommy) 2x t2 hvy Neuts all lvl5 with overheat duration = cycle time of 20.4 1 neut every 10.2 seconds 5x t2 warriors 121 DPS
AB ishkur with small nos (all lvl5) 1x small t2 nos + overheat cycle time of 2.5sec = +3.8 cap per sec 1x small t2 cap booster w/ 50s + overheat cycle time 9.6 = +4.5 cap per sec
Both these happen so fast that using 2x neuts will not cap out an AF and will allow it to all its mods almost continually, albeit with lots of micromanaging and turning on mods.
So much for 'beat any'
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Intigo
Amarr Endemic Aggression Exalted.
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Posted - 2009.07.16 08:32:00 -
[23]
Originally by: BigBobbom
Neut + Drones (all lvl5 dommy) 2x t2 hvy Neuts all lvl5 with overheat duration = cycle time of 20.4 1 neut every 10.2 seconds 5x t2 warriors 121 DPS
AB ishkur with small nos (all lvl5) 1x small t2 nos + overheat cycle time of 2.5sec = +3.8 cap per sec 1x small t2 cap booster w/ 50s + overheat cycle time 9.6 = +4.5 cap per sec
Both these happen so fast that using 2x neuts will not cap out an AF and will allow it to all its mods almost continually, albeit with lots of micromanaging and turning on mods.
So much for 'beat any'
Are you a complete moron?
Who said anything about Heavy neuts? Medium and Small you blabbering idiot.
An Ishkur will be mincemeat in the face of a Vexor with a rack of Warrior 2s and a varied set of Neuts/small guns accompanied with Scram + Web - fight at point blank and simply scoop drones that are attacked. How incompetent are you, honestly?
*facepalm*
And if you try to bring up more math and theorycrafting I will tell you to do the same thing ingame. Good grief. ___________________
ENEMA, much love. <3 |
Kezzle
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Posted - 2009.07.16 09:04:00 -
[24]
Originally by: SomeHardLovin
3. The modules: I get that if he has a tight orbit around me I will have trouble tracking .. this is where a webifier comes in handy. Do any other tracking modules work on cruiser sized ships? Do I really need them?
Tracking computers with tracking scripts make a difference.
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Xenophanes Colophon
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Posted - 2009.07.16 09:12:00 -
[25]
Seeing this thread means one thing. Rise of the Inties! Seriously, once AF are turned into cruiser fodder more often, the 30km point and tracking disruptor or web inty is going to start showing up on cruisers when they think they just hotdropped an AF.
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Okonaa
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Posted - 2009.07.17 10:23:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Xenophanes Colophon Seeing this thread means one thing. Rise of the Inties! Seriously, once AF are turned into cruiser fodder more often, the 30km point and tracking disruptor or web inty is going to start showing up on cruisers when they think they just hotdropped an AF.
30km what?
there is one question id also like to know which noone has answered yet. we have rad/sec on lasers and other weapons but what stat determines rockets/missiles accuracy? if i orbit a BC for example at 3500ms @ 12km, the BC needs 0.39 rad/sec to hit me. its easy to calculate with lasers but whata bout missiles etc?
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Kingwood
Amarr Hello Kitty Pyjama Piwates Obscure Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.07.17 11:07:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Kingwood on 17/07/2009 11:17:22 Neut + MWD + whatever guns.
Don't bother fitting undersized guns. Only thing I'm careful about is attacking a gang of more than 3.
Maybe some solo killmails. AFs suck.
Cyclone vs. Hawk and Vengeance (Vengeance managed to warp out)
Cane vs. Ishkur (Plexxing, tried to run from me. But guess what, I'm faster than you with MWD)
Cane vs. Retribution (also Plexxing)
Navy Omen vs. Enyo
To sum it up: AFs still lack a role, all the kills above could've been done in a T1 cruiser like an Omen. Only AF gangs are viable, but then, why not roam in a T1 Cruiser gang and deal more DPS with more EHP?
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Kezzle
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Posted - 2009.07.17 12:07:00 -
[28]
Originally by: SomeHardLovin
1. The weapon: I will want to use Light weaponry such as Light Missiles and Small guns.
I'd say that's a mistake. If you're needing to use light weaponry, get a smaller hull than a cruiser.
Quote: But which light weaponry is best?
That will depend on the tactical situation. If you're fixated on light guns on a cruiser hull, and you're solo, and trying to take out AFs, the mostl likely scenario probably has them orbiting you fast and close, so you want to use the short range version of whatever turret type you're using: AC/blasters/pulse lasers. This is also true of medium turrets, for precisely the same reason: your long range alternative won't track well enough whatever you do.
If you've a way of maintaining standoff (say you're trying to scratch the BS's back while staying out of the fire), then the long range (artillery, rails, beam) alternative might work with target painters.
Quote: b) Turrets : There are short range and long range turret catagories for each type. I assume the long range turrets are TERRIBLY bad at tracking, even the small ones, so for frigate work that might be a mistake?
If you're a long way off, and the target is rushing directly at you (which would be dumb of your agressor pilot, but...) medium arty/rails/beams can reach out and touch them before they can hurt you, maybe even scattering their wreckage across the starfield. If they get under your guns, though, you'd better have some good drones.
Quote: Does ammo have any effect.. should I use T2 or faction?
Use the best ammo type you can afford. "Best" meaning hardest-hitting short range ammo, probably, since they'll probably be under your optimum. Or get your optimum out to 11 or 12km if they're orbiting you outside neut/web range.
Quote: Does it matter if I choose T1, T2 or Faction weapons?
Start with T1/named. You can afford to lose those all day. When you've figured out how to fly your tasking, T2 and Faction weapons will just make things easier. For sheer nurdling efficiency calculations, there's the Item Database in the menu to the left, which you're as capable of perusing as any of us.
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