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Bestofworst Worstofbest
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.07.17 16:56:00 -
[211]
Originally by: Kayna Eelai
Originally by: Bestofworst Worstofbest You may have killed it, but he salvaged it. Simply is two different things that require two different skill sets. The one who builds a dread does not take credit for the POS it destroys (bad example, but just go with it if you can)
welcome back to page 2 of this post. here we go again.
Hmm, didn't feel like I should have read every page, seemed like all dribble, but ignore my post then. ________________________________________________
Am I an alt, main, or both? You decide! |
Kayna Eelai
Gallente Paxton Industries Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2009.07.17 16:59:00 -
[212]
Edited by: Kayna Eelai on 17/07/2009 17:01:31
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Kayna Eelai please just STFU before making false statetments again.
You mean like you've been goind all along with your lies about the CCP stance on the matter? With your lies about what's required to run missions? With your illogical and shifting statements about what is tied to what in the game? With your complete lack of understanding of the game play and game mechanics?
Yes, please do STFU ù you're giving us mission runners a bad name.
there is a difference between me stating my OPINION about what ccp said and my OPINION about gamemachanics, and you posting total wrong and fake facts like your probing BS (and no, i don't mean BS as in battleship).
read one of my last posts on page 7 for some FACTS on how fast easy and cheap you can get into probing.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.07.17 17:10:00 -
[213]
Originally by: Kayna Eelai there is a difference between me stating my OPINION about what ccp said
Yes there is. You stated it as fact — repeatedly — which makes you a liar.
Quote: read one of my last posts on page 7 for some FACTS on how fast easy and cheap you can get into probing.
I did. So what? You're still not comparing the right thing with the right thing. You still leave out the end result and base it on conjecture. You still fail to separate two different playstyles. Your data is interesting (albeit unreliable, coming from a liar and all), but thoroughly flawed and ultimately irrelevant. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Kayna Eelai
Gallente Paxton Industries Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2009.07.17 17:16:00 -
[214]
Edited by: Kayna Eelai on 17/07/2009 17:15:49 sorry that you think i am a liar. i am not.
the fact that i can't be arsed to write a 6 page disclaimer about "this post is my personal OPINION" in every post i make and the fact that you are to thick to even consider possible language barriers (even tho we type in the same language, people expresses themselves differently) doesn't make me a liar.
however i could consider YOU a liar, because of you trying to convince the forum readers that it needs loads of skill training to probe down some1, when i proved that it needs not.
but instead of calling you a liar, i'll just say once again: YOU ARE WRONG.
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Salliene
Gallente Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.07.17 17:24:00 -
[215]
Originally by: Kayna Eelai
read one of my last posts on page 7 for some FACTS on how fast easy and cheap you can get into probing.
You can "get into" missions a hell of a lot easier than probing.
You stated that ninja salvagers are stealing 20% of your income from missions. If that is true then it means that it takes 5 runs as a salvager to obtain the same amount of money as a mission runner gains from doing 1 level 4.
You can't find a mission site unless the missioner is already in there. Theres a good chance that if you show up at the mission then you are catching them in the middle of the mission so you have 3 choices:
Take what is already there and move on. Take what is there and wait around for the missioner to kill everything else. Skip that mission entirely.
Unlike the mission runner, the income from a night of salvaging is not guaranteed. You know that if you do WC you are going to make approximately 60 million in bounties, cash reward, LP, loot, and salvage. Using the 20%, the salvager has a max of 12 million to gain from your mission, and that's only if every single wreck in the mission is salvaged before you get to it.
As you love to state, if you weren't there killing the wrecks we wouldn't have anything to salvage. This also means that our rate of income is directly tied to your performance. A 5 year old character in a faction fitted Machariel is going to tear through missions 3x as fast as a 2 month old character in a Dominix - so some missioners will provide us faster ISK than others.
Everything about a salvage run is a gamble. You don't know what kind of mission you are going to warp into, you don't know what the mission runner might do to try and prevent you from getting the salvage, you have absolutely zero guarantee that the salvage you do come away with will be worth much ISK (on average it is but not always). I can't predict how much money I will make tonight any more than I can predict the next months weather.
But the for the MR everything is known. You know the best agents, the best damage to tank against, the best ammo or drones to use, the exact behavior of the NPCs you are going to face, in addition to knowing that even if you do not take the salvage or loot you will still get the bounties, cash, and LP reward.
Sometimes we get lucky and we warp into a mission that is 90% complete and has 3 rooms full of untouched Angel wrecks, but that is a rarity. Just as often we warp into missions where the wrecks are gone, worthless, or the mission runner is smart and makes things very difficult for us.
Our income and our experience is not guaranteed, and much of what we do actually makes the game more difficult for us (in terms of how much money we could be making if we cared about that stuff), but we do it anyway.
And we like it.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.07.17 17:52:00 -
[216]
Originally by: Kayna Eelai the fact that i can't be arsed to write a 6 page disclaimer about "this post is my personal OPINION" in every post i make
You don't need to, but then you shouldn't make such categorical staments as this one: "the fact CCP said "working as intended" means NOTHING. only proofs that once more, they can't be arsed to FIX something that has been broken for AGES."
Quote: however i could consider YOU a liar, because of you trying to convince the forum readers that it needs loads of skill training to probe down some1, when i proved that it needs not
Which, of course, I didn't say, if you go back and check it. I said you can't fine everything with just two days' training (which you can't). I said you won't get your claimed income with two days' worth of skills (because you won't). ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Kayna Eelai
Gallente Paxton Industries Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2009.07.17 17:55:00 -
[217]
Originally by: Tippia I said you can't fine everything with just two days' training (which you can't). I said you won't get your claimed income with two days' worth of skills (because you won't).
i just proved u one page ago that in fact you CAN. if with 1d skills and ships worth less than 1M you can't probe down a battleship (and we're talking lvl4 missions, remember, u ain't gonna probe down FRIGATTES) it's not that you lack skillpoints, it's because u need to L2PROBE
we can continue this mumbojumbo for next 20 pages or we can just agree that we disagree (and that u suck at probing xD)
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Riedlim
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Posted - 2009.07.17 18:48:00 -
[218]
Originally by: Kayna Eelai
Originally by: Tippia I said you can't fine everything with just two days' training (which you can't). I said you won't get your claimed income with two days' worth of skills (because you won't).
i just proved u one page ago that in fact you CAN. if with 1d skills and ships worth less than 1M you can't probe down a battleship (and we're talking lvl4 missions, remember, u ain't gonna probe down FRIGATTES) it's not that you lack skillpoints, it's because u need to L2PROBE
we can continue this mumbojumbo for next 20 pages or we can just agree that we disagree (and that u suck at probing xD)
Why don't you cry some Moar???
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Kayna Eelai
Gallente Paxton Industries Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2009.07.17 18:52:00 -
[219]
Originally by: Riedlim
Why don't you cry some Moar???
because some nameless, corpless and clueless alt sais so? xDDDDDD
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Fecal Fingers
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Posted - 2009.07.17 19:08:00 -
[220]
Just an fyi folks. Even if you shoot the wreck, it doesn't belong to you. I finished a mission for someone who had to go to the doctors, the logged and I shot the rest of the npc's. They were still in his name and the loot was his as well.
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Jarvis Hellstrom
Gallente The Flying Tigers
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Posted - 2009.07.17 19:30:00 -
[221]
Originally by: Necropski I am relativly new to this game and do not have so much experience, <snip> That is why salvager make a service for us all - they clean the servers and help to improve the stability and performance.
Wrecks only last 2 hours in space from moment of creation.
Then the server cleans them up by deleting them. No salvagers are needed for server maintainence.
May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk
(Old Egyptian Blessing) |
Zartanic
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Posted - 2009.07.17 19:32:00 -
[222]
Originally by: Salliene
Originally by: Kayna Eelai
read one of my last posts on page 7 for some FACTS on how fast easy and cheap you can get into probing.
You can "get into" missions a hell of a lot easier than probing.
You stated that ninja salvagers are stealing 20% of your income from missions. If that is true then it means that it takes 5 runs as a salvager to obtain the same amount of money as a mission runner gains from doing 1 level 4.
You can't find a mission site unless the missioner is already in there. There's a good chance that if you show up at the mission then you are catching them in the middle of the mission so you have 3 choices:
Take what is already there and move on. Take what is there and wait around for the missioner to kill everything else. Skip that mission entirely.
Unlike the mission runner, the income from a night of salvaging is not guaranteed. You know that if you do WC you are going to make approximately 60 million in bounties, cash reward, LP, loot, and salvage. Using the 20%, the salvager has a max of 12 million to gain from your mission, and that's only if every single wreck in the mission is salvaged before you get to it.
As you love to state, if you weren't there killing the wrecks we wouldn't have anything to salvage. This also means that our rate of income is directly tied to your performance. A 5 year old character in a faction fitted Machariel is going to tear through missions 3x as fast as a 2 month old character in a Dominix - so some missioners will provide us faster ISK than others.
Everything about a salvage run is a gamble. You don't know what kind of mission you are going to warp into, you don't know what the mission runner might do to try and prevent you from getting the salvage, you have absolutely zero guarantee that the salvage you do come away with will be worth much ISK (on average it is but not always). I can't predict how much money I will make tonight any more than I can predict the next months weather.
But the for the MR everything is known. You know the best agents, the best damage to tank against, the best ammo or drones to use, the exact behavior of the NPCs you are going to face, in addition to knowing that even if you do not take the salvage or loot you will still get the bounties, cash, and LP reward.
Sometimes we get lucky and we warp into a mission that is 90% complete and has 3 rooms full of untouched Angel wrecks, but that is a rarity. Just as often we warp into missions where the wrecks are gone, worthless, or the mission runner is smart and makes things very difficult for us.
Our income and our experience is not guaranteed, and much of what we do actually makes the game more difficult for us (in terms of how much money we could be making if we cared about that stuff), but we do it anyway.
And we like it.
1. I probed my first WH within 2 weeks of starting my character and I was training other core skills as priority, so no its not easier to get into missioning at level 4. Pro I'm not skilled enough for them yet after several weeks and the cost is substantial. My salvaging ship cost practically nothing.
2. If salvaging has such a low return, why not mission too? So clearly the return must be good enough.
3. I don't care if its an accepted mechanic as that is not relevant to how I feel about it. Same as anyonea who tried to scam me or suicide my ship, I accept its a part of the game but I still think players that do that are lazy and not ever to be trusted. That's fine for this game though and adds fun to it.
So please don't give all these excuses and sob stories. I really do not mind what you do, just don't expect others to think its all fine and how we feel about it is wrong.
If a player is happy to leech off others effort that's fine, its always been part of this game. Just don't give us the bull**** mission runners are unreasonable wanting to blow your ship away and which is why you should be flagged as at the moment there is little I can
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Jarvis Hellstrom
Gallente The Flying Tigers
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Posted - 2009.07.17 19:34:00 -
[223]
While I may not like ninjas (at all) I do have to be fair to them on one point.
Scanning out someone does take more PLAYER (not character) skill then running basic missions. New players can certainly learn to do it with the right tutorials or some instruction from a skilled player without a lot of time invested, but it does take some skill.
I don't like ninjas - but some credit where credit is due to keep the discussion at least somewhat fair and above board.
May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk
(Old Egyptian Blessing) |
Zartanic
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Posted - 2009.07.17 19:35:00 -
[224]
The above has errors due to the forums being the biggest pile of crap I have ever used. My pet dog could do a better job, Ive seen forums from 10 yo kids that are better, I can't edit without it putting in random commands that mean I can't type.
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Zartanic
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Posted - 2009.07.17 19:37:00 -
[225]
Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom While I may not like ninjas (at all) I do have to be fair to them on one point.
Scanning out someone does take more PLAYER (not character) skill then running basic missions. New players can certainly learn to do it with the right tutorials or some instruction from a skilled player without a lot of time invested, but it does take some skill.
I don't like ninjas - but some credit where credit is due to keep the discussion at least somewhat fair and above board.
Its easy actually although like anything it does take practise. With scanning when you 'get it' its doable in your sleep, it just seems some find it harder to get to that point.
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Traidor Disloyal
Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2009.07.17 23:51:00 -
[226]
Edited by: Traidor Disloyal on 17/07/2009 23:55:59
Originally by: Kayna Eelai
so, with less than a day and around 1M isk investment you're perfectly capable of starting your ninja business making up to 9M isk in a little while (like an example previously posted here) by parasiting others people work.
and you are still trying to compare that to the minimum investment of +-2month, 200M isk and faction grinding a mission runner needs to do before he can run lvl4 missions? yeah, riiiight.
edit: quotes
Tell the truth I don't give a rats ass about the salvage. The loot and the salvage is a means to an end to me. The corp I belong to hunt down mission runners for two reasons only: 1. Get them to shoot at us when we take the loot. Killing the mission runner and making a lot of isk off what he drops 2. Finding prospects to war dec.
We do not care about the salvage at this time. If it became a flagging offense for salvaging in someones mission then we will just use it like we do loot from the wreaks. We are looking forward to the day salvaging becomes a flagging offense.
And the reason we do this in high sec: mission runners seem to get a little bit more upset in high sec then elsewhere. I think it has something to do with the misunderstanding that they (the mission runner) think high sec is safe. ************************************************* I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it. |
Salliene
Gallente Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.07.17 23:53:00 -
[227]
Originally by: Zartanic
1. I probed my first WH within 2 weeks of starting my character and I was training other core skills as priority, so no its not easier to get into missioning at level 4. Pro I'm not skilled enough for them yet after several weeks and the cost is substantial. My salvaging ship cost practically nothing.
2. If salvaging has such a low return, why not mission too? So clearly the return must be good enough.
3. I don't care if its an accepted mechanic as that is not relevant to how I feel about it. Same as anyonea who tried to scam me or suicide my ship, I accept its a part of the game but I still think players that do that are lazy and not ever to be trusted. That's fine for this game though and adds fun to it.
So please don't give all these excuses and sob stories. I really do not mind what you do, just don't expect others to think its all fine and how we feel about it is wrong.
If a player is happy to leech off others effort that's fine, its always been part of this game. Just don't give us the bull**** mission runners are unreasonable wanting to blow your ship away and which is why you should be flagged as at the moment there
1 - 2 weeks is not 2 days (or 2 hours) and I stand by my statement that a salvager cannot make as much money as a mission runner in the same amount of time, but that's not what we are shooting for.
2 - We're not in it for the money. The money is just an added benefit of our coolness.
3 - Your opinions, no matter how shallow, are yours to have and I respect that.
etc. - No one is giving sob stories. I am just trying to get it across to the MR's that "you could make more money doing the missions yourself" is like telling a carpenter he could make more money by welding. The carpenter likes being a carpenter, so he does it even if it makes less money than welding. I like salvaging, I don't like staring at the ass of my Domi for an hour while missiles bounce ineffectively off of it and my drones chew up rats.
If salvaging wasn't already inherently broken none of the mission runners would care. I've watched mission runners who cry about salvage let an equivalent amount of loot rot. Why? Cause a certain aspect of salvaging is incredibly wrong and no one will mention it on the forums cause CCP might see it and fix it.
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Zartanic
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Posted - 2009.07.18 02:36:00 -
[228]
Edited by: Zartanic on 18/07/2009 02:39:09 Edited by: Zartanic on 18/07/2009 02:38:30 Well being cool is of course important
Anyway I just wish the looters got flagged then the risk/reward would be balanced with the rest of the game, at the moment it's not. I don't want the mechanic removed, anything that encourages PVP is good.
I'm just the sort who hates pushing into the front of queues or using the bus lane to jump a line of traffic. Its plain rude and those people are ****s, but they think they are awesome and being clever. Ironically I have more respect for scammers and suicide gankers because at least they don't use somantics to feign surprise at the targets being annoyed. They are being more honest about what they do.
EDIT The poster above, Traidor Disloyal, is giving it straight and thats more refreshing than 'oh, well, its not your loot..why are you annoyed...how strange...let me quote you the rules...blah blah' crap.
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Fredy Krueger
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Posted - 2009.07.22 06:48:00 -
[229]
only read page 1, TL:DR Because it wasn't going anywhere, same arguments etc.
So my suggestion is this, why don't mission runners offer to fleet the salvagers and employ them to salvage for them and ask for say 20% of the salvaged loot (or pick a couple of salvage items they want)
I understand some players would abuse this and take 100% of the loot, but you wouldn't let them tag along again, and i'm sure that in the long run the time it takes to probe out to ninja would make up for the 20% of loot you give to your mission runner.
Just offering a field of grey to those that don't want to be *****s about it and have no other way of making real isk (the OP) :D
Safe flying, cya in your dreams...
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Bestofworst Worstofbest
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.07.22 07:13:00 -
[230]
Copying my post over from a similar thread. Forgive the tone, was in a bad mood when I typed it in but the message should be the same.
Quote:
I'll put it simply, the drivel most people love to use is "Risk vs reward" a term they heard coined by whomever they heard it and then follow it like law. But how about this, your risk for your reward? You run missions in complete safety from being a free target. You are free to make isk in relative safety, you are not interrupted by having a single neutral come into system, you are not to worry about being probed out just to get killed. The only thing you have to worry about is some isk loss. And you know what? You can still keep making isk, he isn't gonna be in every single mission you run on.
And you know what I think it really is? It's the fact that you can't helped to be inconvenienced in any way. You say Risk vs Reward like it's a way of life.. until it effects you in any way.
tl;dr:
You risk the salvage of your wrecks so you are not instantly blown up every time you are seen in the same grid.
Stop trying to think that Risk vs Reward is a valid argument, especially when you whine when your reward comes into contact with its risks.
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Am I an alt, main, or both? You decide! |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.22 13:45:00 -
[231]
Originally by: Salliene
Originally by: Zartanic
1. I probed my first WH within 2 weeks of starting my character and I was training other core skills as priority, so no its not easier to get into missioning at level 4. Pro I'm not skilled enough for them yet after several weeks and the cost is substantial. My salvaging ship cost practically nothing.
2. If salvaging has such a low return, why not mission too? So clearly the return must be good enough.
3. I don't care if its an accepted mechanic as that is not relevant to how I feel about it. Same as anyonea who tried to scam me or suicide my ship, I accept its a part of the game but I still think players that do that are lazy and not ever to be trusted. That's fine for this game though and adds fun to it.
So please don't give all these excuses and sob stories. I really do not mind what you do, just don't expect others to think its all fine and how we feel about it is wrong.
If a player is happy to leech off others effort that's fine, its always been part of this game. Just don't give us the bull**** mission runners are unreasonable wanting to blow your ship away and which is why you should be flagged as at the moment there
1 - 2 weeks is not 2 days (or 2 hours) and I stand by my statement that a salvager cannot make as much money as a mission runner in the same amount of time, but that's not what we are shooting for.
2 - We're not in it for the money. The money is just an added benefit of our coolness.
3 - Your opinions, no matter how shallow, are yours to have and I respect that.
etc. - No one is giving sob stories. I am just trying to get it across to the MR's that "you could make more money doing the missions yourself" is like telling a carpenter he could make more money by welding. The carpenter likes being a carpenter, so he does it even if it makes less money than welding. I like salvaging, I don't like staring at the ass of my Domi for an hour while missiles bounce ineffectively off of it and my drones chew up rats.
If salvaging wasn't already inherently broken none of the mission runners would care. I've watched mission runners who cry about salvage let an equivalent amount of loot rot. Why? Cause a certain aspect of salvaging is incredibly wrong and no one will mention it on the forums cause CCP might see it and fix it.
It sure is convienient that salvage has a vastly higher value per volume than loot!
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WarbzUK
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Posted - 2009.07.22 22:08:00 -
[232]
I like to grab a cheap frigate with a few smartbombs to deal with ninjas. :)
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Zedrik Caynen
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Posted - 2009.07.23 00:10:00 -
[233]
audrey bitoni - school
http://pp1p.com/images/54.jpg
http://pp1p.com/images/13.jpg
she has the best boobs 'she so cute' ,so beautiful in this vid
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Willy Pete
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.07.23 01:33:00 -
[234]
Originally by: Triskie Hi,
As a new player ive been salvaging other peoples missions with some little success.
Triskie -
I must apologize for my brethren who are too quick to jump into the fray and defend the honor of ninja salvagers while ignoring the obvious recruitment possibilities. However, *polishes Triskie's ship* in order to make up for their deficiency, I will add to this thread: why don't you consider this an invite to drop by Dodixie and meet up with Suddenly Ninjas? We are a like minded bunch, a bunch who don't worry about the feelings of MRs, a bunch who use MR tears to give our salvage ships that little bit of extra . . . something *listens for laughter on vent*, a bunch who might give you a bit of comradery and a whit of occasional advice.
I'm not an officer or anything, in fact I'm seldom on these days due to real life issues, but I will say that SN is a great bunch of folks who would love to have you aboard.
Give it some thought, you won't regret joining, I'm sure.
WP
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Malcolm Roberts
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Posted - 2009.07.23 17:55:00 -
[235]
Originally by: Salliene
And we like it.
So say we all. |
g0ggalor
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Posted - 2009.07.23 18:23:00 -
[236]
I'm a mission runner by trade, and have dealt with ninjas in major hubs.
For a change of pace, I decided to try ninjing myself. Spent a few days training probe skills, got some sisters gear, and a friend to give me tips.
I spent most of yesterday ninjaing in motsu, and I'll tell you this, even though you don't make much, the tears you get are worth it.
The best part was when I warped in to these two joes blowing taking on lots of BSs. Then warped out leaving my rifter to the mercy of the torp shooting NPC BSs. They laughed in local, but since my 1,300 m/s rifter is untouchable by the BSs, I got the last laugh and just stayed and continued to salvage. They finally warped back in and opened up in local again with their wrathful words about how my low skills make me scum. Since by that time I had finished salvaging, I decided to go get my CNR and steal their bounties too. They got so frustrated that they warped out, leaving me all the BSs to bounty, and the wrecks to salvage, and one guy even forgot to call back his drones, so I got those too.
My god! I never realized how delicious tears are!!!! |
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