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Phantom Assault
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Posted - 2009.07.08 09:37:00 -
[1]
I am a Caldari speced character with good missile skills. I have been looking to cross train to have more options for PVP. I fly with small to medium gangs in 0.0 mostly. While I still plan to train for Amar BSs to have more options, I noticed that on average, the Torp Raven has more EHPs and Raw Damage than Amar Pulse BSs. I only have Caldari BS 4 atm, and Torp spec. 3. And I matched this against an Amar character who has Amar BS 5, and maxed almost all gunnery support skills. I think he is at Trajectory Analysis 4 though.
So I know that Torps are slooooooooow, and Lazors get your damage there fast. But, that being said, it still seems that the Raven is not that bad. I had stopped using them post missile nerf for PVP. I just don't see that many used for PVP these days.
Basiclly, I am at a crossroads here. Do I begin my crosstraining for Amar BS now, or maybe Max out Torp Raven with BS V and so on? Any thoughts or perspectives from people who have been in a similar position?
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards Hoodlums Associates
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Posted - 2009.07.08 09:40:00 -
[2]
Pulse can hit just about anything while torps will hit just about nothing
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.08 10:48:00 -
[3]
Dont forget the torps get a big damage reduction for size and movement.
For POS bashing, you'll probably do more DPS (while your ammo lasts); against other ships, maybe not so much..
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.07.08 10:49:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 08/07/2009 10:50:13 If you all are in very small gangs with local tank (shield booster, armor repairer, NOT remote) then raven is comparable if not better than geddon. Problem is that when you hit like 5-10 people in gang shield boosters/armor reps become useless and you start depending on remote rep ability. Thing is: most people go for armor reps and raven really sucks with plated setup (yes it is doable but its weak). If you go for full remote shield rep gang then ravens are alright.
So to um up: solo/very small gang - raven is doable shield tanked gangs - raven is ok typical large rr gang - raven is sad choice, use geddon
EDIT: o yea, i dont remember whole armor tank raven setup but i believe it went with 2x eanm 2x 1600mm, 1x dc, 2x trimark, 1x ACR (i think it was needed to fit towrps + mwd).
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Ichandasil
Minmatar Department of Defence
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Posted - 2009.07.08 14:47:00 -
[5]
The problem with the torp Raven in PvP is that in order to get full damage on those BS's you'll do best to fit a single TP, which sacrifices your tank. To damage anything smaller than a BS will require more TP's and then down goes your tank. They're great for very specific situations.
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Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.07.08 14:53:00 -
[6]
[Raven, torp] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Damage Control II
100MN MicroWarpdrive II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Warp Disruptor II Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I
Hammerhead II x2 Hobgoblin II x1 Ogre II x2
90k ehp and a tp. Lazorz are still better, but at least the raven is competitive.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke!
inb4 stealth edit |
Phantom Assault
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Posted - 2009.07.08 16:32:00 -
[7]
Yeah, I guess I am thinking in terms of shooting BC and larger targets. I do fit a TP to maximize damage as well as a lage shield buffer. Its weakness shows against RR gangs. Because unless you have everyone Shield Repping, its going to be a short show.
That being said, What do you think about the Torp/Neut Phoon? I understand that you still have the draw backs of using Torps, but gain utility via the neuts, and can RR. Now from an outside perspective, having not flown the Phoon, It seems a bit goofy to have split weapon systems. However, it also has a very large Drone Bay.
To me this might be a stepping stone to train up to the Phoon quickly and then work on my Gunnery skills with the idea of trying to get into an Amar BS. To me it seems like this would take advantage of my current skills with Torps, and allow me to be viable in a RR gang. So do what do you think about the Phoon on the road to other BSs?
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Ichandasil
Minmatar Department of Defence
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Posted - 2009.07.08 20:08:00 -
[8]
Don't forget, the Raven gets a velocity bonus that the Phoon does not, so your already gimped torp range is even more gimped on the Phoon.
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Artemis Rose
Sileo In Pacis The Space P0lice
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Posted - 2009.07.08 20:45:00 -
[9]
Torp Raven.
Seeing that most Amarr Pulse boats can't effectively tackle/web their targets anyhow, why not take the gang DPS boat that does more DPS and can change damage type. *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
Viktor Fyretracker
Caldari Fyretracker Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2009.07.08 21:16:00 -
[10]
one thought, if neuted majorly. while your tank will died atleast the launchers will keep launching until they pop or you get popped.
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Bisba
The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction
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Posted - 2009.07.08 22:48:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Bisba on 08/07/2009 22:48:57 Fit a couple of berserker tp-900 drones to make sure your torps hit hard and you don't need to sacrifice your tank. Also with most small (10-20 man) engagements between bs, most ships are not moving fast so web is not a requirement there. But with anything smaller then a bc, torps have big problems, make sure the target is webbed by a gang mate. I do about close to 1200dps with my torp raven, works great. There is a problem when you are in a big gang though. By the time your torps hit the primary he is most likely already down by your corp mates fire :(
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.07.08 23:22:00 -
[12]
Don't ever use painter or webber drones.
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Phantom Assault
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Posted - 2009.07.08 23:44:00 -
[13]
Well, I have found that the Torp Raven is a BS configuration that requires a bit of outside the box thinking. I have not had much sucess in trying to active tank it, so I fit a shield buffer tank with a TP and MWD. I think that if you are part of of gang and it looks, like the primary will go down before your Torps hit, then I look at starting in on the secondary target. This ensures that I am not just launching Torps into space. It just means that you have to judge the damage your targets are taking and if you think you can contribute to the primary before it goes down.
I have not used the TP drones very much. One drawback that I see is that drones have to travel to target to begin to work. Then the secondary target might be 60K away from the primary target. That's a bit situational I suppose, but with the local TP and Torps they are both starting from my ship and the TP can be redirected with ease.
Point taken about the Phoon. And having to split damage mods between two weapon system just doesn't seem to make much sense.
Thanks for all the posts. Just trying to figure out if I wanted to keep on the Raven path and train it up to 5 or not. Its a nice bump for the ship bonus, but its a long skill vs. the idea of other weapon systems.
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abrasive soap
Caldari Corporation 12345
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Posted - 2009.07.08 23:55:00 -
[14]
if you have shield logistics in gang raven is victorious
if you have an rr bs gang geddon is victorious
if you're in a sniper bs gang apocalypse is victorious, rokh works
if you're solo station hugging (this isn't dumb at all, no really, station hugging requires you to be pro) abaddon
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Bisba
The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction
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Posted - 2009.07.09 05:33:00 -
[15]
Well I use the rage torps and if the secondary is 60k away, your torps will not go that far. Usually the battles I do are close range, around 10-20km. TP drones have no problem covering that distance at all. And 2 tp drones are more effective in increasing sig radius then one tp unit.
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Phantom Assault
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Posted - 2009.07.09 06:35:00 -
[16]
Not so much talking about targets that are 60K off the Raven as much as a situation where you have one target on the Theoretical Left, 30K off, and your second target on the Theoretical Right, 30K off. When the Drones reach the Theoretical Left target the distance between the two would be 60K total. This seems to happen more than long distance fights where you are 60K off the target. I honestly don't know what the TP Drones have to offer vs. the ship's TP. However, it seems to me that drone travel time would come into play between the two targets vs. the ships TP.
At any rate, it sounds like securing Remote Shield Tanking assets makes the biggest difference. Its just that Caldari shield tankers are the odd man out as far as RR goes. lol.
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xxxak
Caldari No Limit Productions Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.07.09 06:39:00 -
[17]
Originally by: baltec1 Pulse can hit just about anything while torps will hit just about nothing
An hour ago I might have agreed with you but now I am not so sure.
With pretty decent gunnery skills I just had a fair amount of trouble hitting a Drake and a Tempest with Mega Pulse (albeit at fairly close range and they were moving).
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Kail Storm
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Posted - 2009.07.09 06:59:00 -
[18]
Ok so since the game is supposed to be balanced and we all know that torps cant hit anything short of a BC and sometimes has problems there what is ammars saftey for smaller ships going up against it?
Torps have huge sig radius and slow explosion Blasters have short range Arty isnt so hot from what I here what is Ammars "stumbling block" that gives small ships a shot with it?
Because from what I hear they do as much DPS as Torps [which to me should have by far most DPS in game when fighting BC and above] and they still track better? Correct me if im wrong, WHats Ammars wild card?
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Shinnen
Caldari Northern Intelligence
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Posted - 2009.07.09 07:34:00 -
[19]
Originally by: abrasive soap if you have shield logistics in gang raven is victorious
if you have an rr bs gang geddon is victorious
if you're in a sniper bs gang apocalypse is victorious, rokh works
if you're solo station hugging (this isn't dumb at all, no really, station hugging requires you to be pro) abaddon
Ahhh amarr... :(
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AzKing Mobreal
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Posted - 2009.07.09 09:25:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Kail Storm Ok so since the game is supposed to be balanced and we all know that torps cant hit anything short of a BC and sometimes has problems there what is ammars saftey for smaller ships going up against it?
Torps have huge sig radius and slow explosion Blasters have short range Arty isnt so hot from what I here what is Ammars "stumbling block" that gives small ships a shot with it?
Because from what I hear they do as much DPS as Torps [which to me should have by far most DPS in game when fighting BC and above] and they still track better? Correct me if im wrong, WHats Ammars wild card?
Anybody else feel a nerf coming?
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.07.09 09:37:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 09/07/2009 09:37:57
Originally by: Bisba Well I use the rage torps and if the secondary is 60k away, your torps will not go that far. Usually the battles I do are close range, around 10-20km. TP drones have no problem covering that distance at all. And 2 tp drones are more effective in increasing sig radius then one tp unit.
Not when you take into account the opportunity cost of not using combat or ECM drones. Also, don't use Rage torps (or any T2 ammo) unless you know exactly why you're using it.
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fkingfurious
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Posted - 2009.07.09 09:58:00 -
[22]
For smacking POS, Capitals BS and BC the torp Raven is a monster.
Yes, it suffers from some missile based drawbacks, and yes you need to have a target painter and someone needs to get a web on your target, even if its a BS, but lets be honest, how many gangs don't web the primary as a matter of priority?
In real combat the Raven should always be the highest damage dealer against another BS. BS don't fit afterburners, they will alwyas be webbed and once they are webbed MWD's do not reduce incoming damage from torps. The 23km or so a Raven can hit at with faction torps (possibly higher but theres acceleration and stuff to consider) is significantly higher than the range of any turret BS with close range ammo, and the DPS a Raven puts out with Javelins is usually better than any other BS with long range ammo.
As far as it's tank goes it doesn't actually sacrifice anything compared to other BS in order to fit a painter.
After MWD + TP Raven has 4 mids and 1 low (DCU II) to tank with. Compared to the armor tankers and assuming a dual damage mod fit (probably 90% of setups) only the Armageddon with it's 8 low slots would actually have more slots left over to tank with. And the Domi obviously, but thats a special case.
So yeah, Ravens are awesome.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.07.09 10:17:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 09/07/2009 10:16:42
Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 09/07/2009 09:37:57
Originally by: Bisba Well I use the rage torps and if the secondary is 60k away, your torps will not go that far. Usually the battles I do are close range, around 10-20km. TP drones have no problem covering that distance at all. And 2 tp drones are more effective in increasing sig radius then one tp unit.
Not when you take into account the opportunity cost of not using combat or ECM drones. Also, don't use Rage torps (or any T2 ammo) unless you know exactly why you're using it.
I ran 2x tp- zerker (the ONLY TP drones worth using) + 2x medium ec- and 1x small ec-.
Decent jamming + good damage boost (cant remember exactly now but i believe 2x TP zerker gave just under 40% sig boost).
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Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum Pax Romana Alliance
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Posted - 2009.07.09 12:00:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Kail Storm Torps have huge sig radius and slow explosion Blasters have short range Arty isnt so hot from what I here
What is Ammars "stumbling block" that gives small ships a shot with it?
Tracking. Pulse lasers have the worst tracking of all of the short-range turrets, and no Amarrian ships get bonuses to tracking (or many midslots to help track with webs, TCs or TPs). Just yesterday I ended up (questionably) flying solo in a MegaPulse Abaddon, when a Vexor engaged me. My first few volleys, with him 13km away and closing, blew away his shields and most of his 1600mm armour, but when he was orbiting at 1-2km, webbed with no propulsion mod, I was missing every single shot. (This is with Motion Prediction 5 and Navy MF, for reference).
I'm not saying that blasters or ACs would have been able to hit the Vexor accurately, but pulse lasers have it worse than all of them. They're designed for medium range and break down quickly up close.
I'm always surprised how often people don't try and get transversal up when I'm flying a pulse ship, especially if they're doing transversal-independent damage (e.g. missiles or drones). Lots of people are content to just sit still in optimal range (especially with battleships), and lots of people suggest that pulse lasers are overpowered - I expect there is a correlation between these two.
If you're in a Torp Raven, or a Mega, or a Dominix, then when fighting an Amarr battleship you should be trying to generate lots of transversal to exploit the enemy's weakness.
Because from what I hear they do as much DPS as Torps [which to me should have by far most DPS in game when fighting BC and above] and they still track better? Correct me if im wrong, WHats Ammars wild card?
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.07.09 12:19:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire I ran 2x tp- zerker (the ONLY TP drones worth using) + 2x medium ec- and 1x small ec-.
Decent jamming + good damage boost (cant remember exactly now but i believe 2x TP zerker gave just under 40% sig boost).
Yeah, that's a good combination. Two TP-900s give a 41% sig bloom, compared to the 36% of a well-skilled PWNAGE.
The problem that I have with painter drones is a combination of their vulnerability (they have virtually no HP and are a prime target for enemy drones) and the 50 m3 drone space required. I suspect that you'd get more DPS from using PWNAGE and combat drones, while the 50 m3 drone space would be generally better used for Warriors and EC-600s, and I think that that's worth the cost of the medslot for PWNAGE.
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Kail Storm
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Posted - 2009.07.09 19:22:00 -
[26]
"Even taking the lower number of hardpoints into account, 6 siege launchers with a 5% rate of fire bonus do more damage than 8 mega pulse lasers with a 5% damage increase."
Yeah but since torps do such terrible damage % due to sig/expl velocity doesnt lasers way out do torps?
Also every gun I know Blasters a little, arty alot, rails the most would be terrible from 2 km with a vexor orbiting. i cant even hit with 125 mm at 2km when im in Moa i cant hit **** less than 5km when using 250mm`s so i think its in line. I dont think lasers have worse tracking then 425mm`s do they?
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.09 21:24:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Deva Blackfire I ran 2x tp- zerker (the ONLY TP drones worth using) + 2x medium ec- and 1x small ec-.
Decent jamming + good damage boost (cant remember exactly now but i believe 2x TP zerker gave just under 40% sig boost).
Yeah, that's a good combination. Two TP-900s give a 41% sig bloom, compared to the 36% of a well-skilled PWNAGE.
The problem that I have with painter drones is a combination of their vulnerability (they have virtually no HP and are a prime target for enemy drones) and the 50 m3 drone space required. I suspect that you'd get more DPS from using PWNAGE and combat drones, while the 50 m3 drone space would be generally better used for Warriors and EC-600s, and I think that that's worth the cost of the medslot for PWNAGE.
I agree. I find Hammerheads II more usueful for the most part for their relient dps :).
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http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Sonderkommando
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Posted - 2009.07.10 23:30:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Sonderkommando on 10/07/2009 23:30:09 When it works... There is nothing better than slamming Rage Torps into another BS or BC. The TPs and Webs make all the difference. You just are not going to do a whole lot to anything below a BC.
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