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pieterpaul
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Posted - 2009.07.01 17:50:00 -
[1]
Edited by: pieterpaul on 01/07/2009 17:51:53 Edited by: pieterpaul on 01/07/2009 17:50:32 I was wondering how to achieve the highest possible radial velocity. Because I don't like not knowing stuff I wanted to try and calculate it. However, I found that I don't know enough about orbital physics to work it out. I did find some interesting stuff about engine thrust, namely:
F=Force; v=Speed; A=Agility Modifier; vmax=Max. Speed.
- Fengine=vmax/A
- Ffriction=v/A
By the way, if all this was public knowledge already then I apologise for not searching the forums enough.
The derivations can be found here.
What I want to know is a formula that describes radial velocity like omega(r)= ...., or omega(v)= .....
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Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.07.01 18:14:00 -
[2]
Afaik there's no reliable way to calculate because the physics engine has a rather long time step. I think somebody posted a decent approximation for slower ships though. If you're wondering from a practical standpoint, just throw nanos on for the highest transversal.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke!
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Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.07.01 18:18:00 -
[3]
Found it: http://eve-search.com/thread/723019 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=498317
Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke!
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NoNah
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Posted - 2009.07.01 18:19:00 -
[4]
Originally by: pieterpaul Edited by: pieterpaul on 01/07/2009 18:00:58 Edited by: pieterpaul on 01/07/2009 17:51:53 Edited by: pieterpaul on 01/07/2009 17:50:32 I was wondering how to achieve the highest possible radial velocity. Because I don't like not knowing stuff I wanted to try and calculate it. However, I found that I don't know enough about orbital physics to work it out. I did find some interesting stuff about engine thrust, namely:
F=Force; v=Speed; A=Agility Modifier; vmax=Max. Speed.
- Fengine=vmax/A
- Ffriction=v/A
By the way, if all this was public knowledge already then I apologise for not searching the forums enough.
The derivations can be found here.
What I want to know is a formula that describes radial velocity like omega(r)= ....
Could anyone a bit better at physics than I am try to find the solution to this?
First off, you're trying to apply physics based on the variables in EVE in a way that doesn't really work. There is no actual Force ever in play in EVE, yes, there are attributes that are forces of sorts, such as the thrust value of afterburners and microwarpdrives, and I'll bet it doesn't quite make sense at that point. But Agility is a value without any real use and application in actually both the fields, and is entirely pointless without a mass attribute.
As for your actual question, I'm not entirely sure what you want to achieve. Of course you can write the orbital velocity as a function of pretty much whatever you want, however in the end it's as simple as describing the normal vector from your point of view. As such you want to achieve as perfect of an orbit as possible. If what you're looking for is the relationship between velocity, mass and agility for given orbits, that's not possible to achieve by applying real world physics and math. While the math may stay true the physics is not even simulated but simply made up, and to do anything of the sort what you need is nothing but statistics and then reverse those into a fitting formula.
Either that... or I have no clue what you're asking in the first place. =) Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 442422
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pieterpaul
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Posted - 2009.07.01 18:26:00 -
[5]
I want to achieve both the second and the first.. At first I thought there would be no such physics, but both Force formulas are so simple that I assumed that EVE does implement this after all.
By the way, it's very common that there is no mass in the Force formula because mass is taken into account when acceleration is calculated from net force.
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NoNah
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Posted - 2009.07.01 19:01:00 -
[6]
Originally by: pieterpaul Edited by: pieterpaul on 01/07/2009 18:27:25 I want to achieve both the second and the first.. At first I thought there would be no such physics, but both Force formulas are so simple that I assumed that EVE does implement this after all.
By the way, it's very common that there is no mass in the Force formula because mass is taken into account when acceleration is calculated from net force.
To Davinel: I based the two Force formulas on that topic.. Thanks anyway for a push in the right direction though =)
Aye, quite true. But even IF it's a simple formula and simple to calculate, what benefit would it give from a performance point of view when you want to achieve smooth internet spaceship pewpew? You could produce a myriad of values that could be listed on any given ship, but unless they actually have a function in game or saves performance. Even if you know the effect of a ship and you might be able to dig up the voltage in some backstory knowing the current won't help you very much, even though pointing out the function or relationship would be simpler than simple.
Yes, you can with simple real life physics remove earlier variables or recreate the values they would hold. However, that does not mirror the physics in game. Much like the example above. That said, if you're actually able to prove it not only mathematically but also with empirical data, awesome. Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 217825
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pieterpaul
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Posted - 2009.07.01 19:08:00 -
[7]
Edited by: pieterpaul on 01/07/2009 19:08:26 This would be quite easy to prove with MWD's and AB's, since they provide a thrust value in Newton.
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VanNostrum
The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.07.01 19:11:00 -
[8]
Edited by: VanNostrum on 01/07/2009 19:11:51 Well, all ships go slower-than-max speed at close orbits, though this decrease is lower as your agility increases. So the fastest ship at closest orbit with full agility rigs in in theory can achieve fastest radial velocity. The ship top-speed and agility are the only variables here.
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VanNostrum
The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.07.01 19:15:00 -
[9]
Originally by: pieterpaul Edited by: pieterpaul on 01/07/2009 19:08:26 This would be quite easy to prove with MWD's and AB's, since they provide a thrust value in Newton.
By this thoery a 100MN MWD on a frig can achieve most thrust, as 100MN MWD provides much higher thrust than 1MN MWD, though it also adds mass which kind of renders the 100MN unseless on a frig.
So I'd consider mass and max speed (with mwd on), then agility the only factors that affect radial velocity.
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Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.07.01 19:19:00 -
[10]
Originally by: pieterpaul Edited by: pieterpaul on 01/07/2009 19:08:26 This would be quite easy to prove with MWD's and AB's, since they provide a thrust value in Newton.
Considering that mwd and ab give the same speed boost to all ships in a class regardless of their mass, I think it's fairly obvious that eve's system is not based much on actual physics.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke!
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Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.07.01 19:23:00 -
[11]
Originally by: VanNostrum Edited by: VanNostrum on 01/07/2009 19:21:27
Originally by: pieterpaul Edited by: pieterpaul on 01/07/2009 19:08:26 This would be quite easy to prove with MWD's and AB's, since they provide a thrust value in Newton.
By this thoery a 100MN MWD on a frig can achieve the biggest thrust value as 100MN MWD provides much higher thrust than 1MN MWD, though it also adds mass which kind of renders the 100MN unseless on a frig. So thrust isn't a factor.
mass and max speed (with mwd on), then agility are the only factors that affect radial velocity.
edit: the inertial force that pushes you away from orbit center is M(mass) times velocity square divided by radius. Since we want high speed to increase radial velocity not decrease it, and we need to keep the radius short for the same reason, we need to reduce mass.
Putting oversized mwd on small ships actually does work. Try a 100mn mwd on a vaga . Takes a good 30 seconds or so to get up to speed and you can't turn but it's rather insanely fast.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke!
inb4 stealth edit |
VanNostrum
The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.07.01 19:37:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega
Originally by: VanNostrum Edited by: VanNostrum on 01/07/2009 19:21:27
Originally by: pieterpaul Edited by: pieterpaul on 01/07/2009 19:08:26 This would be quite easy to prove with MWD's and AB's, since they provide a thrust value in Newton.
By this thoery a 100MN MWD on a frig can achieve the biggest thrust value as 100MN MWD provides much higher thrust than 1MN MWD, though it also adds mass which kind of renders the 100MN unseless on a frig. So thrust isn't a factor.
mass and max speed (with mwd on), then agility are the only factors that affect radial velocity.
edit: the inertial force that pushes you away from orbit center is M(mass) times velocity square divided by radius. Since we want high speed to increase radial velocity not decrease it, and we need to keep the radius short for the same reason, we need to reduce mass.
Putting oversized mwd on small ships actually does work. Try a 100mn mwd on a vaga . Takes a good 30 seconds or so to get up to speed and you can't turn but it's rather insanely fast.
if you don't turn, you don't have radial velocity, which we're talking about :P
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Lindsay Logan
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Posted - 2009.07.01 19:42:00 -
[13]
Originally by: VanNostrum
Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega
Originally by: VanNostrum Edited by: VanNostrum on 01/07/2009 19:21:27
Originally by: pieterpaul Edited by: pieterpaul on 01/07/2009 19:08:26 This would be quite easy to prove with MWD's and AB's, since they provide a thrust value in Newton.
By this thoery a 100MN MWD on a frig can achieve the biggest thrust value as 100MN MWD provides much higher thrust than 1MN MWD, though it also adds mass which kind of renders the 100MN unseless on a frig. So thrust isn't a factor.
mass and max speed (with mwd on), then agility are the only factors that affect radial velocity.
edit: the inertial force that pushes you away from orbit center is M(mass) times velocity square divided by radius. Since we want high speed to increase radial velocity not decrease it, and we need to keep the radius short for the same reason, we need to reduce mass.
Putting oversized mwd on small ships actually does work. Try a 100mn mwd on a vaga . Takes a good 30 seconds or so to get up to speed and you can't turn but it's rather insanely fast.
if you don't turn, you don't have radial velocity, which we're talking about :P
You do, in one tiny instant, as your straight line goes past the "target" ;P
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Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.07.01 19:48:00 -
[14]
Ok, it does turn, just incredibly slowly. And you said thrust, not radial velocity :P. You are correct that speed, agility, and mass are the only factors in radial velocity.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke!
inb4 stealth edit |
Xianthar
STK Scientific The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.01 20:42:00 -
[15]
your not going to be able to apply real physics to eve since eve does not use real physics, objects in micro gravity + vacuum don't turn or move anything like a ship in eve does.
The ships in eve appear to use something closer to atmospheric flight mechanics.
thrust is great, but without a direction vector it means nothing, you would need to turn the agility modifier into some sort of representation of the ships ability to turn rather than considering thrust applied by directional thrusters on the outside of the ship (as in real space flight). I would guess they use the agility modifier to create a max AOA vs any given inertia, this gives you 2 vectors that can be used to calculate your ultimate direction vector and more importantly the rate of change of that vector.
The ships "autopilot" and by autopilot i mean the bit that trys to orbit @ the preset distance reduces speed in an attempt to balance inertia vs the ships ability to rotate, i.e. match the ships current AOA to the AOA required to orbit at the requested distance. i think we all know it does a rather poor job at anything approaching even medium speeds which would indicate to me the tick time for the physics calculations is really slow, the calculations are really basic, and/or the feedback mechanism in the flight control system is really simple (its certainly not a full PID feedback system).
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Vyllana
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Posted - 2009.07.01 21:37:00 -
[16]
I think you guys are all talking about angular velocity, not radial. Just thought I'd point that out. Radial velocity is how fast you are moving towards or away from what you are orbiting.
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Etien Aldragoran
DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.07.01 22:19:00 -
[17]
Does the op simply not understand that radial velocity is the relative speed an object is moving in relation towards your ship? The simplest way to get a high radial velocity would be to move really fast towards a ship also moving very fast towards yourself.
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