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Meelah Ra
Arkons of Myth Aggression.
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Posted - 2009.06.25 15:03:00 -
[1]
So, I finally entered the jita market last night. I'd spent approximately 4 months playing the game, building up assets. I bought miners, mined A/B/Cs to make more isk, then sold the miners at a profit. I also made some isk via buying an underpriced character on the character boards and then reselling him (appx 5.5 bil profit). I sold my miners for a nice profit (more than I made mining, heh), bought this character, and dropped my extra isk into a jita trader to try to pay for pvp.
I've studied the market for a long time, but not really gotten my feet wet in a big way. Until now, my isk has pretty much always been busy. Sooooo, I take the plunge. I dropped 95% of my isk into 1 market manipulation. It moves appx 30 bil a day and buying all the stock priced in the low range took about 11 bil. I move it up appx 10% (where a lot of sell orders are still chilling) and set up a bunch of sell orders. I also inserted a bunch of buy orders to get the average price to rise (people are less likely to buy from sell orders if there is a huge disparity).
I then go to bed. I am already sort of regretting doing this at night, when I can't watch orders for a while. Oh well. At least its pricey enough that a lot of traders can't get into it.
I wake up.. some sold. Cool. A lot of people set up buy orders. Meh. I should have moved my buy orders up higher to start with. Oh well, now I can fix that. I set a bunch of buy orders that move the price up another 2%, adjust my sell orders to be the lowest (only moved like .5 isk which was nice) and set my laptop up next to my computer while I take care of other things. Shortly after I do that, someone drops a huge buy order where I moved them. Awesome! Every 10-15 minutes I adjust prices if needed, but there isn't a lot of .01 isk going on... a major reason I picked this in the first place. I don't have any tools (need to look into this!) to make adjusting stuff easier/faster and I don't really want to babysit it 10 hours a day. Over the course of the morning, I sold off approximately half my stock which was making me really happy. Theoretically this is how it should work, but when a HUGE portion of your assets is tied up in something.. it makes the heart beat (especially since this is my first real attempt in the market).
So, everything is going well right?
Not anymore, I now stand to lose money.. and perhaps tons of money. Could I have done something differently? I have no clue how.
The issue?
"User xxx is banned" "Reason: Pending Investigation" "Until 2009.07.02)
WTF?! So now... 95% of my assets are tied up. I cannot adjust sell orders. I have no access to my isk. And in the week it will take for this nonsense "investigation", the price is certainly going to return to normal... possibly lower. I can't even think of why this would happen, as there are 2 ways to get banned imo: Macros (haha, I think I'd adjust orders a LOT more often if I did this.. and not go to sleep for 8 hours right after making the plunge). 2) RMT: Huh? Main way of RMT from what I understand is trading trit/other stuff via contracts or just the regular trade window then reselling. 11 bil isk in the market, to make 300-400 mil profit (I need better caldari navy standing!) in some sort of secret RMT deal seems absurd. Also, my sellers/buyers are majorly varied. One buyer bought a lot, but even he is only like 50% of my total sales.
In general I'm just really frustrated/annoyed/depressed at the moment. I think fighting RMT/macros is a good thing, but I've never been the collateral damage before. I always had the assumption that 99.999% of bannings are correct, and justified. Now.. not so much. One suspicion of mine is that someone saw the manipulation, petitioned "omg macro trader!!" and is cashing in on my manipulation while I am banned for a bogus investigation. So ya, apparently "BS banning because you spent a lot of isk" is a secret risk to market manipulation that I NEVER would have considered.
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Leowen
Industrial Giants
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Posted - 2009.06.25 15:19:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Meelah Ra One suspicion of mine is that someone saw the manipulation, petitioned "omg macro trader!!" and is cashing in on my manipulation while I am banned for a bogus investigation. So ya, apparently "BS banning because you spent a lot of isk" is a secret risk to market manipulation that I NEVER would have considered.
This is awesome. Market PVP at it's finest. But, if I'm honest, incredibly low. So low even I wouldn't do it!
GL sorting it. Make CCP aware of your suspicion and demand they investigate as this would be mechanics abuse imo. |
Dzil
Caldari Flux Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2009.06.25 15:25:00 -
[3]
Quote: Sooooo, I take the plunge. I dropped 95% of my isk into 1 market manipulation.
So - it's probably obvious based on what happened. But, this was your main problem.
If you fly a ship worth 95% of your NAV, and get it blown up in a mission/PVP/server fart, most would tell you not to fly something you can't afford to lose.
The same holds true in the markets, and/or investments. You should never really be more than 20-25% vested into any one particular adventure: that way if one tanks, it's not the end of the world. I truely hope your account and isk get freed up, it sounds like you genuinely didn't do anything wrong, but happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
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HawkBlade
Minmatar The Higher Standard Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2009.06.25 15:30:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Meelah Ra I always had the assumption that 99.999% of bannings are correct, and justified. Now.. not so much. One suspicion of mine is that someone saw the manipulation, petitioned "omg macro trader!!" and is cashing in on my manipulation while I am banned for a bogus investigation.
I would not be surprised this is the case. About 2 years ago I was heavily involved in some acquisitions that had a lot of competition. (region wide fight for about 3 dozen meta 4 items) I would do ice mining in that region but I also had an egg timer set for 5 minutes. Then I would cycle through my orders to see what my competitors had done. In the minds of most market macro tinfoil beanie wearers, I am a bot.
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Midas Man
Caldari Dzark Innovations
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Posted - 2009.06.25 15:35:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Meelah Ra .01 isk going on... a major reason I picked this in the first place.
IMO you should always look for items with lots of .01isking going on. This way your price movements very quickly get hidden by the "normal" .01isking. Allowing your manipulation to stay unnoticed for a bit longer.
cannot believe they banned you for it though although using 95% of you total isk may look a bit suspect. try petitioning what you posted here tosee what reasons the devs have for the ban.
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Ji Sama
Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll
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Posted - 2009.06.25 15:36:00 -
[6]
looks like a grief attempt, if what the OP writes is true. I would petetion back, that WHEN you are found innocent, that the griefer gets banned for harrasment. I dont mind meta gaming, but reporting competetion is just lame, and should be repaid with a permanent ban!
TMPI |
Dragon Greg
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Posted - 2009.06.25 15:50:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Ji Sama looks like a grief attempt, if what the OP writes is true. I would petetion back, that WHEN you are found innocent, that the griefer gets banned for harrasment. I dont mind meta gaming, but reporting competetion is just lame, and should be repaid with a permanent ban!
It's pointless really.
He's not the first one to have this happen to, nor will he be the last. Frankly I am surprised his investigative ban is that short (no, not a joke).
The people who usually do this kind of crap are typically smart enough to do it in pairs. One guy files the petition with his "suspicions", the other guy jumps on top of the buy/sell orders the owner can't tweak as he has an investigative ban on his behind. Only hope would be the wannabee griefer did it solo, in which case the GM can easily see whether he went to work with it, but how would the GM prove intent. He can't. Even then, the OP has to take his losses once he gets to log in again. CCP never reimburses consequences no matter what. Painful, especially in circumstances like these.
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Ji Sama
Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll
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Posted - 2009.06.25 16:04:00 -
[8]
Well it sucks nonetheless. Ie. in theory with my army of alts i could start to petetion all the competetion. (atleast the major players)
But we also need to remember that we are only getting one side of the story. What i dont understand is that the OP didnt get a mail, explaining why he was banned (ie. what investigation they are doing) RMT, Macro/botting etc.
But then again, if i was CCP and i didnt have to i would not say what people where accused of, based on the logic that they could obfuscate their investigation or even learn perhaps what revealed their cheating.
I guess what im trying to say with this jibberish is; your right :p |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.06.25 16:22:00 -
[9]
The OP did several completely wrong things, from putting all at stake on a single transaction to injecting billions with no experience instead of 100-200M "to wet his feet".
I would not be surprised his lack of prudence made him buy a former RMT involved character that got sold "when air turned bad and ban was next" and he bought it. |
Ji Sama
Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll
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Posted - 2009.06.25 16:26:00 -
[10]
ah ha yes ofc VV that makes sense... |
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Leowen
Industrial Giants
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Posted - 2009.06.25 16:29:00 -
[11]
*Leowen is relieved that he never uses any of his known chars in his manip efforts. |
Margin Call
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Posted - 2009.06.25 17:12:00 -
[12]
I am sure that the manipulation efforts are not what got the account banned. Bans simply don't happen on a whim. |
Jones Bones
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2009.06.25 17:21:00 -
[13]
Right... An "OMG macro trader" petition was answered within 24 hours? Which website did you buy your isk from? =================== Go Bucks! |
Krylon Rhae
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Posted - 2009.06.25 17:47:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Meelah Ra ... I'd spent approximately 4 months playing the game, building up assets. I bought miners, mined A/B/Cs to make more isk, then sold the miners at a profit.
...It moves appx 30 bil a day and buying all the stock priced in the low range took about 11 bil.
Me thinks I know the problem...
Where did you buy the isk?
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Sakai Kando
Gallente Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.06.25 17:58:00 -
[15]
Maybe he did some research and didn't come in to the game a total newb?
I only started in december, and I have more assets than that... |
Meelah Ra
Arkons of Myth Aggression.
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Posted - 2009.06.25 18:24:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Meelah Ra on 25/06/2009 18:25:02
Originally by: Krylon Rhae
Originally by: Meelah Ra ... I'd spent approximately 4 months playing the game, building up assets. I bought miners, mined A/B/Cs to make more isk, then sold the miners at a profit.
...It moves appx 30 bil a day and buying all the stock priced in the low range took about 11 bil.
Me thinks I know the problem...
Where did you buy the isk?
Oh my god, I just got busted :( :( I bought RMT isk, got caught, and then came to the forums where nobody has ever heard of me to look for sympathy.
Or
I bought some initial capital via GTCs (miners were a lot cheaper a few months ago!), and have then been multiplying that initial investment ever since. Not being dumb might help with this too.
I don't know that I see this as "your mistake was you put all your eggs in one basket". I mean.. if I put it all into one item and that item crashed... sure, my bad. I knew that risk going in. It'd been fairly stable with minor fluctuations for 3 months, but that COULD have happened. Getting an account completely banned out of the blue WAS unexpected, and hopefully I'll hear back about it. Its not even like they hit the account I do my playing with either. The banned account has 1 character that sits in jita and a caldari PvE character that I ditched very early on when I decided Caldari was sorta meh in the long run for pvp. The account with this character on it is unbanned, has received no notification, and no answer to the "wtf?!" petition. |
Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2009.06.25 21:36:00 -
[17]
Sounds like a "When I buy chocolate icecream my car breaks down" story tbh.
Long and the short of that is "Just because you bought chocolate ice cream and your car immediately broke down doesn't mean buying chocolate ice cream makes cars break down". |
Sir Elliot
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Posted - 2009.06.25 21:47:00 -
[18]
As someone that has engaged in furious attempts to get botters banned, I doubt you were banned for supposed botting.
Think long and hard, I'm sure you'll figure it out.
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2009.06.25 21:55:00 -
[19]
Correlation does not imply causation.
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MarieFrance Tessier
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Posted - 2009.06.25 21:56:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs Sounds like a "When I buy chocolate icecream my car breaks down" story tbh.
Long and the short of that is "Just because you bought chocolate ice cream and your car immediately broke down doesn't mean buying chocolate ice cream makes cars break down".
QFT. Correlation != causation, and the plural of anecdote is not data.
l'm "sure" CCP had a reason to ban you.*
*(CCP probably did not have a reason to ban you, sorry). Good luck getting it fixed. And how does investing 95% of your isk into the same venture look suspicious in a EULA sense? Sure, it's stupid, but it's not meaningfully wrong.
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Stay Gold
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Posted - 2009.06.25 21:57:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs Sounds like a "When I buy chocolate icecream my car breaks down" story tbh.
Long and the short of that is "Just because you bought chocolate ice cream and your car immediately broke down doesn't mean buying chocolate ice cream makes cars break down".
I say that about smoking + cancer all the time. Tumors cause cancer, not smoking! BLAME THE TUMAHH
(its not a tumah)
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Selene D'Celeste
Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six
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Posted - 2009.06.25 21:58:00 -
[22]
On the chance the OP is innocent, there is the possibility that the people buying/selling to him were ISK farmers/sellers, as it's one way to transfer money between people. Considering all of his ISK was in one item, that would certainly be suspicious as far as collaborating with the launderers. I cant believe I'm saying this but ... the GMs can be damn crafty at times, guessing ways in which people will try to game the system.
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Rip Minner
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Posted - 2009.06.26 13:44:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Selene D'Celeste On the chance the OP is innocent, there is the possibility that the people buying/selling to him were ISK farmers/sellers, as it's one way to transfer money between people. Considering all of his ISK was in one item, that would certainly be suspicious as far as collaborating with the launderers. I cant believe I'm saying this but ... the GMs can be damn crafty at times, guessing ways in which people will try to game the system.
Wait a sec here. Its a game not real mony at least if your not an isk farmer resaling it for real cash. If you come up with crafty market moves to make isk is that not the Trader way? Out side of not using a bot. |
Stick Cult
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Posted - 2009.06.26 16:04:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Rip Minner
Originally by: Selene D'Celeste On the chance the OP is innocent, there is the possibility that the people buying/selling to him were ISK farmers/sellers, as it's one way to transfer money between people. Considering all of his ISK was in one item, that would certainly be suspicious as far as collaborating with the launderers. I cant believe I'm saying this but ... the GMs can be damn crafty at times, guessing ways in which people will try to game the system.
Wait a sec here. Its a game not real mony at least if your not an isk farmer resaling it for real cash. If you come up with crafty market moves to make isk is that not the Trader way? Out side of not using a bot.
Crafty ways to MAKE isk is a trader, crafty ways to LAUNDER isk is an isk farmer.
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.06.26 16:14:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Selene D'Celeste On the chance the OP is innocent, there is the possibility that the people buying/selling to him were ISK farmers/sellers, as it's one way to transfer money between people. Considering all of his ISK was in one item, that would certainly be suspicious as far as collaborating with the launderers. I cant believe I'm saying this but ... the GMs can be damn crafty at times, guessing ways in which people will try to game the system.
QFT
Its only that suspicious though when your plugging your entire wallet into a single item. |
Zero Uptick
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Posted - 2009.06.26 16:17:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Meelah Ra I...bought this character
There is no record in the character bazaar of you being sold via the sanctioned method. I'm going to go with "unsanctioned account/character trading" got you banned.
/thread
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KaarBaak
Minmatar Squirrel Team
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Posted - 2009.06.26 16:44:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Meelah Ra I also made some isk via buying an underpriced character on the character boards and then reselling him (appx 5.5 bil profit).
I would suspect this transaction as unwitting participation in an RMT pilot shuffle.
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Vechtor
Gallente Federation Mineral Reserves
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Posted - 2009.06.26 17:15:00 -
[28]
Interesting.
So, you put approximately 30% of the total cash a market trades a day (11 bill / 30 bill), then you start to change your buy/sell orders in order to raise prices and drive other buy orders up so you can make a killing... and CCP gets suspicious.
Well, couple of things I think CCP has to wonder:
1) How come that someone can put 30% of what Jita, the biggest trade hub with more than 1k people there at peaks, trades per day? This is the ultimate market manipulation m8, its a size of a concentration not paralleled in RL as far as I know of, at least on the regulated/efficient markets (and I must assume that in the eve-verse Jita earned this status and most people takes it by such, CCP included)
2) CCP allows gankers to gank auto-piloting freighters around Jita, forcing them to deal with losses that goes on to the scale of billions, in HI-SEC, and a trader can't manipulate the market for couple days?
This thread is interesting because it made me think that CCP gives to much attention and energy developing other tricky and cruel, some times ridiculous, ways to make people fire their guns at eachother, and forgets other very important and basic issues it had to deal with, such as..... market.
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Dzil
Caldari Flux Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2009.06.26 17:57:00 -
[29]
I suspect the OP has been dirtier than he lets on here.
---------------------- Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m for 7+ standings ---------------------- |
Nuzzy Futs
Amarr Hedion University
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Posted - 2009.06.26 20:56:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Vechtor Interesting.
So, you put approximately 30% of the total cash a market trades a day (11 bill / 30 bill), then you start to change your buy/sell orders in order to raise prices and drive other buy orders up so you can make a killing... and CCP gets suspicious.
Well, couple of things I think CCP has to wonder:
1) How come that someone can put 30% of what Jita, the biggest trade hub with more than 1k people there at peaks, trades per day? This is the ultimate market manipulation m8, its a size of a concentration not paralleled in RL as far as I know of, at least on the regulated/efficient markets (and I must assume that in the eve-verse Jita earned this status and most people takes it by such, CCP included) ......
Search on hunt brothers and silver |
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